Libertarians are stupid

[billydan225]

Libertarians always wine about freedom and stuff like that even though we already have those freedoms but where also losing out freedom

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Are you talking about pro-capitalist right-libertarians?

[Comrade Nasser]

Libertarians always wine about freedom and stuff like that even though we already have those freedoms but where also losing out freedom

You just realized this comrade? Lol, even before I turned to the left I always thought libertarians were stupid. And I hate their poster boy Ron Paul's muppet voice so much!

[slum]

Libertarians are stupid

I agree.

[tuwix]

Libertarians always wine about freedom and stuff like that even though we already have those freedoms but where also losing out freedom

But don't forget that you as Anarchist are considered by many people as Libertarian too. :)
But I suppose you mean right-wing Libertarians. They are just poor people in terms of knowledge. They are not able to understand that economic freedom that they advocate is denying all other forms of freedom and enslaving people.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Libertarians always wine about freedom and stuff like that even though we already have those freedoms but where also losing out freedomRight. I've always thought it was almost hilariously hypocritical that people who complain about "the Nanny State" when it comes to past reforms like anti-discrimination laws will then fully support "Police State" policies like allowing the cops to search people on flimsy pretexts and supporting anti-immigrant laws that would allow/require officials to ask for people's citizenship papers (if they look Latino or possibly Asian or Hatian depending on the part of the US).

Ultimately it's an attempt to create popular support around a coroprate drive to undo past reforms and eliminate safty-nets so that people really have no choice but to take whatever wages they are offered.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

Austro-libertarianism tends to just boil down to "muh negative conception of liberty uber alles".

[billydan225]

But don't forget that you as Anarchist are considered by many people as Libertarian too. :)
But I suppose you mean right-wing Libertarians. They are just poor people in terms of knowledge. They are not able to understand that economic freedom that they advocate is denying all other forms of freedom and enslaving people.

To tell you the truth I don't know what I am politicly

[LOLseph Stalin]

As somebody who was once a libertarian(even if it was just for a short time) I can attest to this. Their entire ideology seems to be based on "voluntary" interactions. However, there's really nothing voluntary about being forced to work in a sweat shop to avoid starvation. It's ok to them though since the person "chooses" to work.

And then of course us evil commies just want to initiate force against them and take their property away :rolleyes:. Oh the horror, we'll actually give everybody a decent standard of living! without exploitation too. Can't have that.

[Philosophos]

Right-winged libertarians are really stupid I agree. They go for right winged policies while they have some leftish opinions. The thing is that they don't realise how the capital works (it fucks everyone that is not capital) even if it's in the economical or social scale.

[Hexen]

Right. I've always thought it was almost hilariously hypocritical that people who complain about "the Nanny State" when it comes to past reforms like anti-discrimination laws will then fully support "Police State" policies like allowing the cops to search people on flimsy pretexts and supporting anti-immigrant laws that would allow/require officials to ask for people's citizenship papers (if they look Latino or possibly Asian or Hatian depending on the part of the US).

Ultimately it's an attempt to create popular support around a coroprate drive to undo past reforms and eliminate safty-nets so that people really have no choice but to take whatever wages they are offered.

Maybe Libertarianism is just a attempt to consolidate (white male) privilege? If you know what I mean...

[RebelDog]

They moan about the state until they run to it to bail them out.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Maybe Libertarianism is just a attempt to consolidate (white male) privilege? If you know what I mean...there's probably some truth to that on the tea party side of libertarianism especially.

Really I think it's a pretty good representation of petty bourgeois ideas about the world: I work hard to develop these professional trade skills/small business, why can't everyone? I work my ass off at my shop and sacrifice to build this business but rent goes up, debt gets worse and the government throws all these taxes at me.


At least that's the appeal to a section of the population. But then ironically in practice often libertarian politics are shaped by the desires of the big capitalists... Or at least where libertarian concerns overlap with the interests of capital is where the ideas get political traction in general politics.

[benderbrau]

I did some research about Ayn Rand and her books once since I noticed some libertarians liked to quote her a lot, that was enough for me to form a negative opinion towards right-wing libertarianism. I have a hard time understanding how anyone comes to those sort of conclusions outside of greed/privilege.

[lemushyman]

Objectivism makes me cringe.

[Starship Stormtrooper]

I myself will soon have the distinct pleasure (in the way that stabbing out one's eyes is a pleasure) of reading and discussing Atlas Shrugged with my classmates. I am hoping that I will be able to shift the discourse in a favorable manner, especially as the class contains a large minority of strong social liberals (around 20%) of whom several are members of the school debate club. I plan on causing several disruptions as well, by (for example) asking if this is the one of her books with the rape scene in it. The right-wing teacher will then be forced to acknowledge that one of Rand's books has a rape scene and that she treats the matter positively. I am currently developing several other such tricks. The problem is doing so without being outed as anything to the left of social-democrat.

That said, with the coverage that Rand's noxious views receive, especially in the south, it is easy for me to understand their widespread popularity.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I find calling them libertarian is quite insulting to true libertarians aka communists. :D

[slum]

I myself will soon have the distinct pleasure (in the way that stabbing out one's eyes is a pleasure) of reading and discussing Atlas Shrugged with my classmates. I am hoping that I will be able to shift the discourse in a favorable manner, especially as the class contains a large minority of strong social liberals (around 20%) of whom several are members of the school debate club. I plan on causing several disruptions as well, by (for example) asking if this is the one of her books with the rape scene in it. The right-wing teacher will then be forced to acknowledge that one of Rand's books has a rape scene and that she treats the matter positively. I am currently developing several other such tricks. The problem is doing so without being outed as anything to the left of social-democrat.

That said, with the coverage that Rand's noxious views receive, especially in the south, it is easy for me to understand their widespread popularity.

I think that might be the fountainhead, but I could be wrong. It's been many years since I subjected myself to her nonsense.

I am so sorry you have to read and debate this garbage in school. But Atlas is a great way of getting into the heads of libertarians. Appeal to the social democrats by bemoaning how much Rand hates poor people (and how she does!).

Cool story: I once worked for a boss who named her dog 'Dagny' after Taggart, the heroine of Atlas. 11 hour shifts in a windowless basement for minimum wage, woohoo!

[slum]

I did some research about Ayn Rand and her books once since I noticed some libertarians liked to quote her a lot, that was enough for me to form a negative opinion towards right-wing libertarianism. I have a hard time understanding how anyone comes to those sort of conclusions outside of greed/privilege.

Strangely most of the libertarians I met in school were working class (this may have just been b/c my school was). They were all white men, though, so I think they balanced their hatred of themselves for not being billionaires with the fact that they at least 'earned' their social dominance over working class women and minorities.

They're gross.

[rylasasin]

I know, right?

I had an argument with one over youtube (waste of time, I know) who was railing against Cult of Dusty's video on "The Bible" miniseries on the (pseudo)History Channel.

Started out as just a moron trying to be clever by spewing as many childish insults as he could vis-a-vis the Nostalgia Critic (except I find the later funny, this guy was just lame) and when I called him out on it... well...


You know what is really wrong with humanity these days besides the military & prison industrial complex! Or the govt pumpin toxins in are food, water & vaccines! And even more then the demise of the middle class & the inevitable crash of the U.S. Dollar caused by europian banksters! GAY motherfucking RIGHTS & the fudgepacking propaganda set foth by the zionist jewish run media & entertainment! Not because i hate faggots & racist or even worse ignorant racist faggots like your butt buddy dusty!

(followed by)

Nope you're so wrong yet again! I'm 36 yrs old & i'm not sitting around being naive to the world around me! I use my cpu & internet for things other then video gms, porn & entertainment! So not only you don't believe in a higher power, but you don't believe that gov'ts would lie to it's ppl, would stage false flags or perform eugenics & genocide on its ppl? Besides the bible have you read any history books? I get you dont believe in GOD, but come on really? WTF kinda world do live in? Wake up!

:laugh: That just made me facepalm.

1st of all, what is it with lolbertardians and conspiracy theories? I guess that's what happens when your bullshit position lacks substance, you need to make up stories about the government dumping dumping nondescript chemicals that do whatever the crank wants them to do nevermind what they actually do into our water supply so the BIG BAD JEWISH GOV can control people...

... because as we all know, the only real form of oppression is mind control/slavery. :rolleyes:. And because Governments want to kill us all off despite the fact that this completely flies in the face of proper class analysis, and just plain common sense.

2ndly: Oh boy the myth of the middle class. Always a favorite.

3rd: Yeah he (supposedly) rails against racists and eugenics yet also supports reactionary measures against gays and blame jews for all your problems. Irony, delicious irony.

4th: Perhaps the most ironic: he rails against a government that (supposedly) does this, yet at the same time proudly supports a religion that worships a god that does THE EXACT SAME THINGS in his "holy book".

[Klaatu]

These so-called "Libertarians" like Rand Paul are fake. They claim to cherish freedom, yet call for (A) abortion restrictions, (B) capitalist exploitation and (C) reduction and even elimination of all taxation. While (A) and (B) are obvious hypocricy, (C) may not be clear to most people... for example there must be things like public roads and public education, therefore the citizens of the community must pay for these things they use everyday!

Furthermore, these type of people exist at the top end of the pay scale (mostly) and should be held the most accountable after the Socialist Revolution :glare:

[Orange Juche]

As somebody who was once a libertarian(even if it was just for a short time) I can attest to this. Their entire ideology seems to be based on "voluntary" interactions. However, there's really nothing voluntary about being forced to work in a sweat shop to avoid starvation. It's ok to them though since the person "chooses" to work.

Basically, their entire paradigm is based on semantics. Technically, it is a voluntary choice to work in a sweatshop. To them, it doesn't matter that the only alternative choice is death - it still remains a choice. It's almost childish how they actually argue this.

[Orange Juche]

Furthermore, these type of people exist at the top end of the pay scale (mostly) and should be held the most accountable after the Socialist Revolution :glare:

Held accountable for what, and how? Would they get a fair trial, or would it be one of those 1 day long mob "trials"?

[Astarte]

And I hate their poster boy Ron Paul's muppet voice so much!

Piglet. His voice is Piglet from Winnie the Pooh, as performed by John Fiedler.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Most petit-bourgoise ideologies seek class peace: reformists through governemntal structures to ease class anger from below and curb the "excesses of capital"; libertarians through a sort of idealized fantasy of small entrepernureal town-life; moral reformers through diciplining workers into behaving in an austier (Sp?) and "respectable" (i.e. passive) manner and a plea for "ethical" business for those above them; and in times of crisis, fascism, which seeks social peace through smashing worker organizations, the masses generally, and independant class or social organizations and using state power to curb the "chaos" of big capital.

This appeals to the middle class professionals and small capitalists because they rely on the system, they just don't understand why it doesn't work as it "should" - I work hard and got an eduction, I work hard and suffer to run this shop without much financial reward, why don't big companies behave, why doesn't government live "within it's means" why don't workers focus on achieving social mobility rather than striking. They have no collective sense or understanding because they approach the market not like cogs, like workers, but as induviudals (i.e. pulling their own "bootstraps") and in competition with eachother and pitted against both big capital and workers... but they have no control over the market unlike the big capitalists who can use their power to influence policy or capital to shape conditions in the market, and unlike workers they don't produce a huge amount of social wealth collectivly so they don't have access to that sort of power through solidarity either.

Objectivism is interesting because it's like an unsentimental version of the general small-capitalist libertarin small-business utopias. It's also more disgusting because of it. Rather than ignore social conflict and divisions in favor of a capitalist fantasy of small-town life like general libertarianism, it tries to say that these divisions are actually somehow ethical and necissary. Regular libertarians can just ignore the working class and mass struggle most of the time and offer visions of a world where there really aren't workers. Objectivism recognizes that in modern society this is impossible, so it just basically argues that the masses are striaght up wrong and need to be controlled by their social betters through market unfettered dicipline. In this way it's an apology and pseudo-philisophical justification for existing divisions and I think that's why it's been very relativly popular (for a minority ideology) among elitist college students (on the "petite bourgoise" side of things) and more decisivly for the neoliberalist prothlytisers. It's libertarianism that includes industrialists, whereas most common libertarianism is a little more dubious of big capital (they don't like monopolies or powerful banks generally) and worship a by-gone imagined capitalism that in the US at least hasn't existed as the major thrust of capitalism since before the Civil War.

[Synthesis-]

They seem really ignorant, they have a huge presence here in the usa and there all over internet forums. They love capitalism and they have these notions that corporatism isn't capitalism, they use all this language to cover up the fact that they dont agree with some things going on so we should go back to "pure capitalism" blah blah.

[Orange Juche]

As someone who was "libertarian" when I was pretty young - I honestly think a nice chunk of these people, at least the young ones, just aren't intellectually and politically mature - and were they/are they to come to that, they'd likely be libertarian in the traditional sense (socialist/anarchist).

[Tim Cornelis]

These so-called "Libertarians" like Rand Paul are fake. They claim to cherish freedom, yet call for (A) abortion restrictions, (B) capitalist exploitation and (C) reduction and even elimination of all taxation. While (A) and (B) are obvious hypocricy, (C) may not be clear to most people... for example there must be things like public roads and public education, therefore the citizens of the community must pay for these things they use everyday!

Furthermore, these type of people exist at the top end of the pay scale (mostly) and should be held the most accountable after the Socialist Revolution :glare:

So many "arguments" thrown at right-libertarians are so easily refuted.
Rand Paul is not a libertarian, you probably mean Ron Paul.

Public roads aren't necessary. You could have private roads using using toll boots.

I think most right-libertarians are students, not well-paid. Rich capitalists know better than to end state intervention on their behalf.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Objectivism makes me cringe.

I learned quite some interesting things about objectivism today that just makes it seem even more cultist. Apparently objectivists are only allowed dating other objectivists. They're also not allowed dating anybody religious and they're not allowed being non-smokers. I didn't know any of this until now and I can just say it's pretty eerie how cult-like it is.

[DasFapital]

I learned quite some interesting things about objectivism today that just makes it seem even more cultist. Apparently objectivists are only allowed dating other objectivists. They're also not allowed dating anybody religious and they're not allowed being non-smokers. I didn't know any of this until now and I can just say it's pretty eerie how cult-like it is.
Also you have to acknowledge that Ayn Rand is the greatest philosopher to ever live. No joke. Yet they always try to paint socialism as being a "state religion".

[magicshoemonkey]

The overwhelming majority of my friends are libertarians (or libertarian-like Republicans). Some are more hybrid libertarians; one is generally a libertarian but believes health care should be universal, government controlled (in some sense; he's pretty vague on specifics, there). But most (if not all) are just uninformed and not particularly good at thinking things through.

One guy I know always argues with me on Facebook, for instance, about free markets and how they should control everything, including employment and payscale, meaning eliminating even a minimum wage. Sometimes I have no idea how to respond to his foolishness; once I tried to tell him that he was, one, arguing for social darwinism (he's a creationist), and, two, he seemed to be assuming that people have no value outside of how they can be used to make money (he's a Christian, so I assumed he thought people had, you know, some kind of inherent worth as human beings). All of these points proved a waste of time; when he (among other libertarians I know) can't respond to something he throws out self-righteous red herrings, usually about how lazy poor people are.

Incidentally, all libertarians I know are white men (as I think someone mentioned above). And, weirdly, almost every one of them works for the government (including both of the men mentioned above).

[Starship Stormtrooper]

I think that might be the fountainhead, but I could be wrong. It's been many years since I subjected myself to her nonsense.

I am so sorry you have to read and debate this garbage in school. But Atlas is a great way of getting into the heads of libertarians. Appeal to the social democrats by bemoaning how much Rand hates poor people (and how she does!).

Cool story: I once worked for a boss who named her dog 'Dagny' after Taggart, the heroine of Atlas. 11 hour shifts in a windowless basement for minimum wage, woohoo!

Yeah, the one with the rape scene is Fountainhead, but by feigning ignorance and just mentioning that one of Rand's books has a rape scene treated in a positive light I can derail the class discussion and prejudice people against the book before we even start it.

Sucks about your boss, but since you had read Rand you were able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps right;)?

[Comrade Nasser]

These so-called "Libertarians" like Rand Paul are fake. They claim to cherish freedom, yet call for (A) abortion restrictions, (B) capitalist exploitation and (C) reduction and even elimination of all taxation. While (A) and (B) are obvious hypocricy, (C) may not be clear to most people... for example there must be things like public roads and public education, therefore the citizens of the community must pay for these things they use everyday!

Furthermore, these type of people exist at the top end of the pay scale (mostly) and should be held the most accountable after the Socialist Revolution :glare:

A wolf in sheep's clothing.

[conmharáin]

I've come to believe that most right-wing presence on the internet is actually the work of an artificially intelligent trolling algorithm secretly designed by Falangists to spread needless misery in the online community.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I learned quite some interesting things about objectivism today that just makes it seem even more cultist. Apparently objectivists are only allowed dating other objectivists. They're also not allowed dating anybody religious and they're not allowed being non-smokers. I didn't know any of this until now and I can just say it's pretty eerie how cult-like it is.

I presume you speak of the so-called "Ayn Rand Institute", which certainly is a strange little cult. It's so odd, that there have been splits from it (they're just like us, in a way... except maybe less human--) with various objectivists who disagree with the way it is run... :laugh: The ARI has subsequently tried to squash these splinters in various ways.

[slum]

Yeah, the one with the rape scene is Fountainhead, but by feigning ignorance and just mentioning that one of Rand's books has a rape scene treated in a positive light I can derail the class discussion and prejudice people against the book before we even start it.

Sucks about your boss, but since you had read Rand you were able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps right;)?

i admire your tactics and might utilize them the next time i encounter a randroid (please, let it be never).

lol actually i had a mental breakdown and got fired. ;) only the strong survive to toil another day in objectivist paradise!

[LOLseph Stalin]

Also you have to acknowledge that Ayn Rand is the greatest philosopher to ever live. No joke. Yet they always try to paint socialism as being a "state religion".

Yea...definitely not a personality cult... :rolleyes:

Apparently Murray Rothbard was a member and then I think he left. I was reading some of the stuff he wrote about Ayn Rand's little cult.

[Lord Hargreaves]

I think that one can make meaningful distinctions between libertarians, just as in most things.

There are many who really do believe that private property and free markets are key to underpinning liberty and freedom, and - while I completely disagree - I can hold a certain respect for people who are ideologically consistent. You do find genuine right-libertarians who oppose militarism and imperialism and oppose "corporate socialism" etc, and I have no problem linking arms with them on an anti-war demo, or campaigning alongside them for drug legislation.

And then there are establishment, corporate "libertarians", as much a part of the Washington elite as anyone else - the CATO Institute comes to mind. These are people who simply co-sponsor big business initiatives and lobby for multinationals within the corridors of power: complaining that any kind of health and safety regulation, trade union right, or minimum wage is an attack upon "freedom" itself (while conveniently going quiet when banks and corporations get bailed out by the state.) These people are scum, the lowest of the low, but are not necessarily representative of all libertarians.

[one10]

I find Libertarians to be confused individuals with no true grasp on how a society should function, both left and right.

[Klaatu]

Public roads aren't necessary. You could have private roads using using toll boots.

Sorry but I do not trust anything like this to be "privately-owned," simply because this inevitibly leads to exploitation and loss of freedom.




I think most right-libertarians are students, not well-paid. Rich capitalists know better than to end state intervention on their behalf.

Probably so, but isn't it such a great irony that the rich capitalists themselves call for this "end state intervention."
This is to garner the vote of the simple-minded electorate who are so easily fooled into thinking that the rich capitalists
can do no harm and always tell the truth! :rolleyes:

[DROSL]

I consider libertarians has good as the conservatives.

And I dislike conservatives very much! :tt2:

[Crixus]

Libertarians are stupid
No we're not.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I just see libertarians as profoundly naive people who can't tell the obvious fact that a CEO and a coffee farmer in rural Colombia are not making some abstractly free and fair economic contract, or that universal private property is as tyrannical as the state owning everything.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Libertarians are usually pretty dweeby people. They wear fedoras and have contempt for people who complain about racism, sexism, poverty, war or anything else that is a meaningful obstacle to liberty. They don't read books but act really like really patronizing intellectuals. You can catch them at the debate club meeting or guitar center complaining about feminazis or how music isn't real anymore.

[Sudsy]

Right-Wings Libertarians agitate me so much because whenever there`s a problem in society regarding corporations and wealth, they always state: that isn`t ``true`` capitalism. Sorry but that IS TRUE CAPITALISM!!!

[cyu]

You can get more people to believe your nonsense if you hire people to repeat it, rather than saying it yourself.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/there-no-nobel-prize-economics?paging=off

Before he won the award, it looked like Hayek was washed up. He was considered a quack and fraud by contemporary economists, he had spent the 50s and 60s in academic obscurity, preaching the gospel of economic darwinism while on the payroll of ultra-rightwing American billionaires. Hayek had powerful backers, but was out on the fringes of academic credibility.

that all changed as soon as he won the prize in 1974.

Billionaire Charles Koch brought Hayek out for an extended victory tour of the United States, tapping Hayek’s mainstream cred to set up and underwrite Cato Institute in 1974 (it was called the Charles Koch Foundation until 1977).

[Klaatu]

You can get more people to believe your nonsense if you hire people to repeat it, rather than saying it yourself.


As an example, the Fox News crew is paid buckets of money to brainwash their followers. And they aren't the only ones. Rush Limbaugh is paid tens of millions of $ yet contributes nothing of value to society. And he claims that capitalism is an "efficient" system --- really?

Fox/Limbaugh/Beck are poster children of what is wrong with capitalism!