*Trigger Warning* Update in Steubenville Rape Case

[Art Vandelay]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/16/justice/ohio-steubenville-case/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[Jimmie Higgins]

When asked by prosecutors why he didn't stop the incident, he said, "It wasn't violent. I didn't know exactly what rape was. I thought it was forcing yourself on someone."

In a nutshell I'd say this above is part of the specific "enabling" aspect of this kind of shit. And of course it has a direct link to all the post-feminism backlash and arguments about "legitimate rape" or "grey rape".

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

It would probably help rape victims to forbid any mention of the victim's personality or past behaviour during the trial - and to rap the fingers of lawyers that try to insinuate the misogynist trash about the victim being responsible with heavy fines and disbarment.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Hence my aversion of drinking.

[#FF0000]

Hence my aversion of drinking.

This is a profoundly dumb post and you are profoundly dumb for posting it.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

This is a profoundly dumb post and you are profoundly dumb for posting it.

Thanks you for your comment. I have an aversion for drinking. Does that make me dumb?
Who the fuck are you to question my emotions? I hate things drunk people do. So fucking what!
Time and time again i hear people laughing about stupid things they did when drunk. Yeah real classy, dumbass.

Have you actually read the article? She was drunk, dudes where drunk. They did enormously stupid things while intoxicated. Were they not drunk, shit probably wouldn't have happend.
Worst of all: they now have an excuses for their act of humiliation.

Now, who is profoundly dumb again?

[Narcissus]

The boys took advantage of her. If she was not drunk though, she would not have been in a position to be taken advantage of. This doesn't make what the boys did any less deplorable/horrifying, but I think the girl has to recognise that what happened would not have been possible if she had been responsible enough to not drink too much. She made the decision to get drunk, and when you make that decision you need to realise that YOU are responsible for the consequences.

I have absolutely no idea how you resolve this legally. I'm torn. It doesn't make what the boys did OK in the slightest.

I think the boys must go to jail for rape, and the girl needs to be punished in some way too. Maybe send her to jail for enabling rape. I don't know. Both parties are at fault, but obviously what the boys did was worse.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

but I think the girl has to recognise that what happened would not have been possible if she had been responsible enough to not drink too much. She made the decision to get drunk, and when you make that decision you need to realise that YOU are responsible for the consequences.
A woman is NEVER responsible for being a victim of rape. The only people responsible for rape are the rapists.


I think the boys must go to jail for rape, and the girl needs to be punished in some way too. Maybe send her to jail for enabling rape.
The young woman was raped, she doesn't need to go to jail because a misogynist motherfucker like you thinks she bears some responsibility for her own victimization.

I'm sick of this right-wing crap from avowed leftists when it comes to women.

[Le Socialiste]

Thanks you for your comment. I have an aversion for drinking. Does that make me dumb?
Who the fuck are you to question my emotions? I hate things drunk people do. So fucking what!
Time and time again i hear people laughing about stupid things they did when drunk. Yeah real classy, dumbass.

Have you actually read the article? She was drunk, dudes where drunk. They did enormously stupid things while intoxicated. Were they not drunk, shit probably wouldn't have happend.
Worst of all: they now have an excuses for their act of humiliation.

Never mind the fact that this was all planned in advance, that the girl in question had to be 'coaxed' into going to the party in the first place, and had no recollection of the entire evening past the point of her getting into a car heading to the party with Richmond, Mays, and Cole in it (meaning she was most likely drugged en route). The girl knew Mays, Richmond, and others through a prior relationship with another 'Big Red' football player Cody Saltsman, who, after she broke up with him a month before the incident, told people he'd 'make her pay'.

He said: "nobody breaks up with Cody Saltsman, I'll ruin the *****."
Saltsman himself was present at the multiple parties the woman in question was brought to, taking pictures, filming, and participating in her rape. His charges were later dismissed after a back room deal between Saltsman's father, the town's sheriff, and other wealthy/influential Steubenville residents.

Wake the fuck up, alcohol isn't to blame here. The pervasive culture of rape and violence against women is. If you can't see that the rape and abuse of this girl was a direct result of this culture, where women are reduced to mere objects of 'conquest' in the eyes of their attackers, then I don't know what to tell you (aside from fuck you).


Now, who is profoundly dumb again?

Still you.

[Narcissus]

A woman is NEVER responsible for being a victim of rape. The only people responsible for rape are the rapists.

The young woman was raped, she doesn't need to go to jail because a misogynist motherfucker like you thinks she bears some responsibility for her own victimization.

I'm sick of this right-wing crap from avowed leftists when it comes to women.

I feel exactly the same way about dudes getting raped by women or men. If I had got myself that drunk and found myself naked having been raped by a guy or a girl, I am taking some of the responsibility.

I am not a misogynist, I'm just holding this girl to the same standards that I hold myself.

Why do you say 'A WOMEN is never responsible for being a victim of rape' can men be responsible for being raped? Women are not the only ones who are raped. I'm not some douchebag men's rights fuckwit, I have an excellent understanding of sexism and the patriarchy. I believe in EQUALITY, and I mean that absolutely and with every fibre of my being.

I think people (anyone) have to take responsibility for their actions when drunk. I think therefore that it is possible for people to be at least partly responsible for being raped.

[Le Socialiste]

I think the boys must go to jail for rape, and the girl needs to be punished in some way too. Maybe send her to jail for enabling rape. I don't know. Both parties are at fault, but obviously what the boys did was worse.

Right, because women who get drunk (which is their prerogative) are obviously asking for trouble, and must be forced to deal with the consequences of that decision. :rolleyes:

Women never enable rape. Let me repeat that so it gets through your thick head: women never enable rape. Never! None of this is her fault. The only people who bear the responsibility of this incident and its consequences fall on the perpetrators themselves: the boys who engaged in the rape, humiliation, and the abetment of it all against this girl. Her consumption of alcohol (it has been said she was, in all likelihood, drugged as well) doesn't warrant punishment. Do you even realize the level of misogyny and stupidity you've exhibited with that statement? Why does this girl need to be punished for engaging in actions that are well within her rights to participate in? By your logic, we should prohibit women from having alcohol.

Can't believe this shit.

[Le Socialiste]

I'm not some douchebag men's rights fuckwit,

And yet that's exactly what you're reducing your argument to.




I have an excellent understanding of sexism and the patriarchy.

No, you don't.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Wake the fuck up, alcohol isn't to blame here. The pervasive culture of rape and violence against women is. If you can't see that the rape and abuse of this girl was a direct result of this culture, where women are reduced to mere objects of 'conquest' in the eyes of their attackers, then I don't know what to tell you (aside from fuck you).


You know what, fuck this thread and all you assholes for telling me what to feel.

I have NEVER said that alcohol was the main reason or the enablement of the rape. I am just as against rape as you all are (at least i fucking hope so!).
I know it is a culture thing. I am certainly not saying that rape or any other mistreatment of women is the slightest bit okay.

I am saying i hate drunk behaviour! So shut the fuck up if you misread or misunderstood.
I have my feelings about alcohol and it's abuse. I am entitled to.
You don't think so? Go [email protected]#$ yourself!

Anybody else got a comment on my emotions?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Why do you say 'A WOMEN is never responsible for being a victim of rape' can men be responsible for being raped?
We're talking about a female victim here, but of course a male victim isn't responsible, either.


Women are not the only ones who are raped. I'm not some douchebag men's rights fuckwit, I have an excellent understanding of sexism and the patriarchy. I believe in EQUALITY, and I mean that absolutely and with every fibre of my being.
Equality is a bourgeois liberal concept. I want liberation, and that means smashing misogyny and rape culture, which your statements are part of.

But how predictable is it that when someone gets called on their nonsense, they claim "but I'm not ______."


I think people (anyone) have to take responsibility for their actions when drunk. I think therefore that it is possible for people to be at least partly responsible for being raped.
What if I pass out from low blood sugar and someone decides to take advantage of that? You're arguing that incapacitation makes you responsible for what someone else does to you.

[Narcissus]

Also Danielle Ni Dhigh I demand an apology from you. I am not a 'rape apologist'. I never said that what the rapists did was OK. I am deeply offended by that. I know that rape is a sensitive topic, and that I didn't completely agree with your bourgeois liberal faux-feminist views, but the truth is i am on another fucking level from you. I spent close to a year in almost complete isolation and existential depression. I stripped my views down to nothing and completely started again. Cartesian doubt, and my never-flinching drive for EQUALITY, mean that I don't fit in anywhere this planet can offer me in this millennium. My views are different to yours, but I didn't jump to mine. I studied mine, scrapped them, improved them; and they are the correct ones when your axiom is the rule of EQUALITY.

So before you snap back at me or anyone, have a good fucking think about what YOU are attacking, and what I actually said.

"What if I pass out from low blood sugar and someone decides to take advantage of that? You're arguing that incapacitation for any reason makes you responsible for what someone else does to you."

Obviously not, because that's not your fault. If you for instance got drunk and threw up everywhere, you would be entirely responsible for it. If you got drunk, found yourself in a bad part of town, and got mugged; then you are partly responsible - as is the mugger. The mugger should still get the same amount of jail time as if you weren't drunk, but you also have to take some of the responsibility.

[Narcissus]

Maybe I'm not doing a great job in so few words, one of you (le socialiste or Danielle) Skype me so I can explain my position fully. Send me a pm and I will send you my Skype.

[DarkPast]

@Narcissus, if you got mugged because you decided to walk alone at night, do you bear partial responsibility for the mugging? Now doing something like that may have been foolish or careless, but it does not make you responsible for the crime.

Same applies to the woman. Irresponsible drinking is not a crime in itself, and a person can never be responsible for being the victim of rape!

The only time the woman would have some of the blame is if she got drunk and endangered someone's health (e.g. drunk driving). But this is irrelevant to the fact that she got raped - the idea that she was "asking for it" is misogynistic bullshit.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Also Danielle Ni Dhigh I demand an apology from you. I am not a 'rape apologist'. I never said that what the rapists did was OK. I am deeply offended by that. I know that rape is a sensitive topic, and that I didn't completely agree with your bourgeois liberal faux-feminist views
Demand all you want. You're not getting an apology. I honestly don't care how offended you are. Victim blaming is rape culture. I'm a revolutionary libertarian and Marxist, not any kind of a bourgeois liberal.


but the truth is i am on another fucking level from you. I spent close to a year in almost complete isolation and existential depression.
:rolleyes:

[Narcissus]

@Narcissus, if you got mugged because you decided to walk alone at night, do you bear partial responsibility for the mugging? Now doing something like that may have been foolish or careless, but it does not make you responsible for the crime.

Same applies to the woman. Irresponsible drinking is not a crime in itself, and a person can never be responsible for being the victim of rape!

The only time the woman would have some of the blame is if she got drunk and endangered someone's health (e.g. drunk driving). But this is irrelevant to the fact that she got raped - the idea that she was "asking for it" is misogynistic bullshit.

NOT what I said was it?! I got drunk - my being drunk landed me in a bad situation - I am at least partly responsible for what happens, because I chose to become drunk.

In the example you have cited, I agree with you. No-one 'asks' for it.

[DarkPast]

NOT what I said was it?! I got drunk - my being drunk landed me in a bad situation - I am at least partly responsible for what happens, because I chose to become drunk.

In the example you have cited, I agree with you. No-one 'asks' for it.

Look, I'll put it in simpler terms: drinking doesn't cause rape - rapists do.

[Narcissus]

Seriously somebody please Skype me. I will explain my position. I will be nice.

[Le Socialiste]

I am saying i hate drunk behaviour! So shut the fuck up if you misread or misunderstood.

I have my feelings about alcohol and it's abuse

But this wasn't a result of alcohol, it was a result of a group of teenage boys (called 'The Rape Crew') making a clear decision to rape and brutalize a girl who had prior connections to one of the football players. Furthermore, alcohol isn't wholly responsible for their behavior - a history of patriarchy and the subjection of women, coupled with the material development of each since the advent of class society, is.

I don't see how you can reduce this to drunk behavior. It's clear the whole thing was premeditated.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

But this wasn't a result of alcohol, it was a result of a group of teenage boys (called 'The Rape Crew') making a clear decision to rape and brutalize a girl who had prior connections to one of the football players. Furthermore, alcohol isn't wholly responsible for their behavior - a history of patriarchy and the subjection of women, coupled with the material development of each since the advent of class society, is.

I don't see how you can reduce this to drunk behavior. It's clear the whole thing was premeditated.

Oh, for goodness sake. That's what i said!


I have NEVER said that alcohol was the main reason or the enablement of the rape. I am just as against rape as you all are (at least i fucking hope so!).
I know it is a culture thing. I am certainly not saying that rape or any other mistreatment of women is the slightest bit okay.


I was just saying i hate drunk behaviour. Nothing more.
NEVER have i said it was the reason, or even A reason. Neither have i reduced the faul act what so ever.
I just expressed an emotion about drunkeness.

[Narcissus]

But this wasn't a result of alcohol, it was a result of a group of teenage boys (called 'The Rape Crew') making a clear decision to rape and brutalize a girl who had prior connections to one of the football players. Furthermore, alcohol isn't wholly responsible for their behavior - a history of patriarchy and the subjection of women, coupled with the material development of each since the advent of class society, is.

I don't see how you can reduce this to drunk behavior. It's clear the whole thing was premeditated.

OK, but lets look at the article provided as a hypothetical case. A girl gets drunk, and gets taken advantage of. If she hadn't made the decision to make herself vulnerable, then she wouldn't have been raped.

I think that when you get drunk, you have to realise that you are making yourself very vulnerable. You are responsible for that decision, and responsible for the consequences. Obviously the rapists take the Lion's share of the blame, but it's an inescapable fact that without making the decision to get drunk, she wouldn't have been raped.

[Yuppie Grinder]

The boys took advantage of her. If she was not drunk though, she would not have been in a position to be taken advantage of. This doesn't make what the boys did any less deplorable/horrifying, but I think the girl has to recognise that what happened would not have been possible if she had been responsible enough to not drink too much. She made the decision to get drunk, and when you make that decision you need to realise that YOU are responsible for the consequences.

I have absolutely no idea how you resolve this legally. I'm torn. It doesn't make what the boys did OK in the slightest.

I think the boys must go to jail for rape, and the girl needs to be punished in some way too. Maybe send her to jail for enabling rape. I don't know. Both parties are at fault, but obviously what the boys did was worse.

Maybe you should go to jail for being a tremendous shithead.

[#FF0000]

OK, but lets look at the article provided as a hypothetical case. A girl gets drunk, and gets taken advantage of. If she hadn't made the decision to make herself vulnerable, then she wouldn't have been raped.

I think that when you get drunk, you have to realise that you are making yourself very vulnerable. You are responsible for that decision, and responsible for the consequences. Obviously the rapists take the Lion's share of the blame, but it's an inescapable fact that without making the decision to get drunk, she wouldn't have been raped.

But in no other crime is that even taken into consideration. If you walk through a high-crime area, drunk, waving your cash and credit cards in the air along with a pad of sticky-notes with your social security number, PINs, last seven addresses and a list of your fears, none of that comes into play in court, none of that excuses or makes one culpable in any part for getting mugged.

Rape victims don't share in the blame or responsibility for being raped, no matter the circumstance. At all, full stop. To say that they do, in part or entirely, because they were drunk is to absolve the rapist in part or entirely.

[#FF0000]

I think the boys must go to jail for rape, and the girl needs to be punished in some way too. Maybe send her to jail for enabling rape. I don't know. Both parties are at fault, but obviously what the boys did was worse.She should be punished for being drunk and other people forcing themselves upon her? Being attacked while sober makes you a victim, but being attacked while drunk makes you partially responsible, an "enabler" of that crime?

No words, son.

You should find yourself another group to roll with, dude, because you sure as fuck are no communist, and you're sure as fuck no comrade of mine.

[Narcissus]

Maybe you should go to jail for being a tremendous shithead.

The victim isn't blameless. I'm not saying she should take all the blame, just a part of it (and a small part at that) - this shouldn't mean the rapists get any lighter a sentence in my opinion. But people need to recognise that loosing control of the ability to move properly, to understand what is happening, and to call for help is something you should think carefully about doing, and recognise that there can be very nasty consequences, for others and yourself.

[#FF0000]

how deep a hole can one person dig

lets watch

[Yuppie Grinder]

Hence my aversion of drinking.

Oh shut up man. People should have as many beers as they want without fear of being raped, and being drunk is no excuse for any sort of violent behavior.

[kashkin]

The victim isn't blameless. I'm not saying she should take all the blame, just a part of it (and a small part at that) - this shouldn't mean the rapists get any lighter a sentence in my opinion. But people need to recognise that loosing control of the ability to move properly, to understand what is happening, and to call for help is something you should think carefully about doing, and recognise that there can be very nasty consequences, for others and yourself.

What part of 'and she was most probably drugged without her knowledge' do you not understand?

[Ele'ill]

this thread makes me want to drop brass

[Brutus]

this thread makes me want to drop brass

To resolve the situation violently?

[Ele'ill]

To resolve the situation violently?

as violently as possible

[slum]

what is even going on in this thread

shit like this makes me reeeaaal cynical when leftist men claim to be feminists

[Brutus]

as violently as possible

That seems very controversial. The act is despicable, and they should be punished severely. Is there any news on their punishments?

[#FF0000]

if i fall asleep in my house and someone breaks in and robs me am i responsible because i chose to sleep and make myself vulnerable instead of standing vigil at the gates of my castle.

if i get my hands caught in a chinese finger trap at the park and then get mugged am i responsible because i chose to make myself vulnerable instead of keeping my hands at the ready to thwart any potential ne'erdowells who always lurk in the shadows

serious inquiries

[#FF0000]

That seems very controversial. The act is despicable, and they should be punished severely. Is there any news on their punishments?

Minimum 2 years in juvie.

[Narcissus]

But in no other crime is that even taken into consideration. If you walk through a high-crime area, drunk, waving your cash and credit cards in the air along with a pad of sticky-notes with your social security number, PINs, last seven addresses and a list of your fears, none of that comes into play in court, none of that excuses or makes one culpable in any part for getting mugged..

Well it should do. I would certainly feel that it was my fault if that was me. Can you really say you don't feel the same? It's not like you are a child who can't help not understanding, you are an adult who has CHOSEN to become vulnerable - so you had better accept the consequences as being at least partly your fault.


ButRape victims don't share in the blame or responsibility for being raped, no matter the circumstance. At all, full stop. To say that they do, in part or entirely, because they were drunk is to absolve the rapist in part or entirely.

Wrong way around. If they were raped because they made themselves drunk, then surely they are partly to blame. Their actions were the ones that made it possible for them to be raped. They are partly to blame.


She should be punished for being drunk and other people forcing themselves upon her? Being attacked while sober makes you a victim, but being attacked while drunk makes you partially responsible, an "enabler" of that crime?.

She needs to recognise that SHE was responsible for making herself vulnerable enough to be taken advantage of.


No words, son.

You should find yourself another group to roll with, dude, because you sure as fuck are no communist, and you're sure as fuck no comrade of mine.

I sure as fuck am a communist.

It's a sensitive topic. But making a blanket statement like 'rape victims are never responsible for being raped' is stupid. It's not looking at it objectively. You are letting your emotions cloud your judgement, and allowing more people to become victims of rape by spreading bullshit. People who get drunk make themselves significantly more likely to be raped. Igoring this promotes getting drunk without thinking about the consequences.

I'm sure rape victims would tell you that getting so drunk that you can't move properly, can't understand what is happening, and can't call for help is stupid as fuck - and an insult to anyone who knows how traumatic that experience is.

I tolerate people like you who have wrong opinions but for the right reasons - it's not your fault that you follow the current (you didn't choose to). It's a shame you can't tolerate people who have the different opinions - you may think they are wrong, or disgusting but in actual fact they are just not common, and uncomfortable for you to think about. But if you do just that. Think about it with a clear mind for a long time, you will come to realise that you are wrong.

Your mind is tied down by the constaints of this world. If your mind is not free, how can you ever hope to be?

[Brutus]

Minimum 2 years in juvie.

That makes me sick. What they did to that woman may stay with her for life, so they should be punished accordingly. 2 years and those scum could be wandering the streets again

[Narcissus]

What part of 'and she was most probably drugged without her knowledge' do you not understand?

In which case, obviously not her fault. We were first discussing however the article in the OP


if i fall asleep in my house and someone breaks in and robs me am i responsible because i chose to sleep and make myself vulnerable instead of standing vigil at the gates of my castle.

Everyone HAS to sleep - not your fault. Nobody HAS to get drunk.


if i get my hands caught in a chinese finger trap at the park and then get mugged am i responsible because i chose to make myself vulnerable instead of keeping my hands at the ready to thwart any potential ne'erdowells who always lurk in the shadows.

If you knew the finger trap would trap you then yes it is partly your fault (it wouldn't have been possible otherwise). If you were unaware the finger trap would trap you, then it is not your fault.


Minimum two years in Juvie.

Not nearly harsh enough.

[Le Socialiste]

I was just saying i hate drunk behaviour. Nothing more. NEVER have i said it was the reason, or even A reason. Neither have i reduced the faul act what so ever. I just expressed an emotion about drunkeness.

So you're just making an off-topic post that has little relevance to the thread. Thanks. :rolleyes:

[#FF0000]

Well it should do. I would certainly feel that it was my fault if that was me. Can you really say you don't feel the same? It's not like you are a child who can't help not understanding, you are an adult who has CHOSEN to become vulnerable - so you had better accept the consequences as being at least partly your fault.

No, I certainly feel that way, because carelessness does not justify someone mugging you in any capacity.


Wrong way around. If they were raped because they made themselves drunk, then surely they are partly to blame. Their actions were the ones that made it possible for them to be raped. They are partly to blame.

Being drunk doesn't lead to rape as a rule. Rape doesn't happen unless someone decides to commit rape. They are not partly to blame for what someone else did to them, no matter what their state of mind.


She needs to recognise that SHE was responsible for making herself vulnerable enough to be taken advantage of.


What if she was sober? Is she responsible if she doesn't fight back enough? Once again, her being drunk does not justify anything, does not make her responsible.


It's a sensitive topic. But making a blanket statement like 'rape victims are never responsible for being raped' is stupid. It's not looking at it objectively. You are letting your emotions cloud your judgement, and allowing more people to become victims of rape by spreading bullshit. People who get drunk make themselves significantly more likely to be raped. Igoring this promotes getting drunk without thinking about the consequences.

No, it's very much an objective look at it. No one deserves to be hurt like that, no one is responsible for someone hurting them like that, no matter what. And I think it's funny that you're telling me that I'm spreading bullshit that leads to people making poor decisions and getting hurt, when you're the one saying that rape victims should be held responsible for other people assaulting them -- a mindset that often keeps victims from testifying against their attackers or even going to police in the first place, because they're afraid of backlash against them.

And they have every right to be afraid. For some reason, I hear a whole lot more about victims getting threats than rapists (convicted or alleged) do.


I'm sure rape victims would tell you that getting so drunk that you can't move properly, can't understand what is happening, and can't call for help is stupid as fuck - and an insult to anyone who knows how traumatic that experience is.

Yeah, there's a whole lot of self-blaming victims out there. I know of a woman in my community who killed herself because she thought she was entirely responsible for what happened to her at a friend's party, so I guess you're right, heh.


Your mind is tied down by the constaints of this world. If your mind is not free, how can you ever hope to be?

how many fedoras do you own, if i may ask

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

The boys took advantage of her. If she was not drunk though, she would not have been in a position to be taken advantage of. This doesn't make what the boys did any less deplorable/horrifying, but I think the girl has to recognise that what happened would not have been possible if she had been responsible enough to not drink too much. She made the decision to get drunk, and when you make that decision you need to realise that YOU are responsible for the consequences.

I have absolutely no idea how you resolve this legally. I'm torn. It doesn't make what the boys did OK in the slightest.

I think the boys must go to jail for rape, and the girl needs to be punished in some way too. Maybe send her to jail for enabling rape. I don't know. Both parties are at fault, but obviously what the boys did was worse.

Maybe the next time you get drunk, blurt out something so vile and repulsive, and some community-minded citizens physically corrects you, you should go to jail for enabling bar brawls. Fuck's sake, this goes beyond rape apology and victim blaming - you want to criminalise being a victim. Despite your feeble protests that, no, really, you are a communist, this places you on the level of the good emperor Constantine.

I have seen members banned for less repulse rape apologia, and I would be very disappointed if you do not follow them into exile shortly.

[#FF0000]

Everyone HAS to sleep - not your fault. Nobody HAS to get drunk.

What if it was more a nap for leisure because I was bored and had nothing to do really, rather than much-needed sleep? I mean, I certainly don't need to sleep at 2 PM on a Saturday, do I?


If you knew the finger trap would trap you then yes it is partly your fault (it wouldn't have been possible otherwise). If you were unaware the finger trap would trap you, then it is not your fault.


Cool so if someone is mugged or beaten while wearing headphones, looking at their phone or daydreaming, they're partially responsible too, right?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Cool so if someone is mugged or beaten while wearing headphones, looking at their phone or daydreaming, they're partially responsible too, right?

Oh, they're responsible - to the gaol with them, to the gaol with all of them. Or, perhaps, our avowed progressive thinks that only rape victims should go to gaol, unless they have fulfilled some fucking arbitrary set of criteria that leaves them blameless in the eyes of his progressiveness, and of course, fearful and submissive.

Fuck, this rubbish would not most likely not pass at the Republican National Convention.

[Narcissus]

No, I certainly feel that way, because carelessness does not justify someone mugging you in any capacity.

Of course it doesn't justify it. That doesn't mean that it wasn't partly your fault though. This is the main misunderstanding that seems to have occurred. Just because it was partly the victim's fault it doesn't make the crime any less punishable or any better.[/QUOTE]


Being drunk doesn't lead to rape as a rule. Rape doesn't happen unless someone decides to commit rape. They are not partly to blame for what someone else did to them, no matter what their state of mind

They could have avoided being raped if they hadn't decided to become vulnerable: partly their fault.


What if she was sober? Is she responsible if she doesn't fight back enough? Once again, her being drunk does not justify anything, does not make her responsible.

Of course not. Choosing to become vulnerable however is a different thing altogether, and does not justify anything by the way.


No, it's very much an objective look at it. No one deserves to be hurt like that, no one is responsible for someone hurting them like that, no matter what. And I think it's funny that you're telling me that I'm spreading bullshit that leads to people making poor decisions and getting hurt, when you're the one saying that rape victims should be held responsible for other people assaulting them -- a mindset that often keeps victims from testifying against their attackers or even going to police in the first place, because they're afraid of backlash against them.

No-one deserves to have that done to them. That doesn't neccesarily mean however that it isn't partly their fault.

Of course not all rape victims should be held responsible, because the vast majority of them are not responsible. Also no rape victim is entirely or even close to mostly responsible for being raped.


And they have every right to be afraid. For some reason, I hear a whole lot more about victims getting threats than rapists (convicted or alleged) do.

That's probably because it's rarer. I hear most rapists have a very bad time in prison.


Yeah, there's a whole lot of self-blaming victims out there. I know of a woman in my community who killed herself because she thought she was entirely responsible for what happened to her at a friend's party, so I guess you're right, heh.

Well that's a shame. That is a view that I certainly do not support, and never will.


how many fedoras do you own, if i may ask

I didn't know what a fedora was until I googled it just now. Bravo. Ridiculing people who happen to think differently is such a revolutionary thing to do.

I have a question for you. If a mother gives her son a roofy, and leaves him at the side of a road, and he is kidnapped, is she at all to blame, or does the blame rest solely on the perpetrator of the crime?

[Le Socialiste]

Well it should do. I would certainly feel that it was my fault if that was me. Can you really say you don't feel the same? It's not like you are a child who can't help not understanding, you are an adult who has CHOSEN to become vulnerable - so you had better accept the consequences as being at least partly your fault.

C'mon, you're essentially saying that a woman's actions (i.e. consumption of alcohol) is the sole cause or reason for whatever befalls her after the fact, absolving the actual perpetrators of any responsibility. It's like asking a woman what she was wearing at the time of the incident. She's not responsible, because she hasn't done anything wrong. Moreover - and this seems to be something you've been avoiding - women are an oppressed group within class society. Any serious analysis will plainly show that the roles women have been shaped to assume contributes to their general oppression and subjugation. The subjects of rape and sexual violence, then, must be looked at in accordance with this given reality. The only way to successfully root out the source(s) of women's oppression is through significant fightback and liberation. What you're doing, however, only reinforces the standard perception that women are the causes of whatever violence happens to them. You're blaming the victim, and absolving the perpetrators of all responsibility.


Wrong way around. If they were raped because they made themselves drunk, then surely they are partly to blame. Their actions were the ones that made it possible for them to be raped. They are partly to blame.

Nope, they're not even 'partly' to blame, asshole. Nothing a woman does is an invitation to rape or otherwise take advantage of her. Women are never responsible for whatever sexual violence is inflicted on them, I thought I made that perfectly clear. All you're saying is "well of course she was raped! Just look at her behavior! She should have expected it." Why? Why should a woman ever be at fault for the actions of another individual, for things that are beyond her control? Her decisions don't open her up to any kind of violence; the fault lies entirely on those who inflict it on her.


She needs to recognise that SHE was responsible for making herself vulnerable enough to be taken advantage of.

You know what? Fuck off.

Guess you've also ignored that little tidbit about her being drugged as well, huh?


I sure as fuck am a communist.

:rolleyes:


It's a sensitive topic. But making a blanket statement like 'rape victims are never responsible for being raped' is stupid.

No, making a general assertion that 'women who drink are to blame for whatever happens to them after the fact' is stupid. Really, fucking, stupid.


I'm sure rape victims would tell you that getting so drunk that you can't move properly, can't understand what is happening, and can't call for help is stupid as fuck - and an insult to anyone who knows how traumatic that experience is.

The real insult is to say that a rape victim should bear an amount of responsibility for what happened to them, and that they should even serve time in jail for whatever they did to 'incite others to rape them' (your own words).


Your mind is tied down by the constaints of this world. If your mind is not free, how can you ever hope to be?

I can see we've ceased to make any sense now.

[Le Socialiste]

Minimum 2 years in juvie.

They'll also be labelled sex offenders for the rest of their lives.

[Le Socialiste]

I have a question for you. If a mother gives her son a roofy, and leaves him at the side of a road, and he is kidnapped, is she at all to blame, or does the blame rest solely on the perpetrator of the crime?

I'm sorry, what?

[Narcissus]

Maybe the next time you get drunk, blurt out something so vile and repulsive, and some community-minded citizens physically corrects you, you should go to jail for enabling bar brawls. Fuck's sake, this goes beyond rape apology and victim blaming - you want to criminalise being a victim. Despite your feeble protests that, no, really, you are a communist, this places you on the level of the good emperor Constantine.

I have seen members banned for less repulse rape apologia, and I would be very disappointed if you do not follow them into exile shortly.

Certainly. I think so. Not only do I think it is your fault if you are hit in such a situation, but also it may be justified that you are hit (depending on the level of depravity you have expressed). They are not the same thing.

I have never once apologised for rape. It is never OK. It is never justified. Sometimes there are things the victims could/should have done to avoid being raped.

"What if it was more a nap for leisure because I was bored and had nothing to do really, rather than much-needed sleep? I mean, I certainly don't need to sleep at 2 PM on a Saturday, do I?"

You are in your home, no-one should expect to be assaulted there. I am fine with ppl getting drunk in their homes too (as long as they don't go out).

"Cool so if someone is mugged or beaten while wearing headphones, looking at their phone or daydreaming, they're partially responsible too, right?"

You are still perfectly capable of moving, understanding what is wrong, and crying for help when doing any of those things. Not your fault. My problem is when people put themselves in mild state of paralysis and wonder how something bad could possibly have happened.

[Narcissus]

I'm sorry, what?

Please answer my line of questioning - I am answering yours.

[Le Socialiste]

Please answer my line of questioning - I am answering yours.

I would, but your question isn't making any fucking sense to me. How is it analogous to rape victims?

Oh yeah, it isn't...

[Yuppie Grinder]

In which case, obviously not her fault. We were first discussing however the article in the OP



Everyone HAS to sleep - not your fault. Nobody HAS to get drunk.



If you knew the finger trap would trap you then yes it is partly your fault (it wouldn't have been possible otherwise). If you were unaware the finger trap would trap you, then it is not your fault.



Not nearly harsh enough.
So you wanna cover up your rape agologism by playing the "I think criminals should be punished the hardest!" pissing game? It's not about arbitrarily deciding what amount of pain a criminal deserves, that's not justice and doesn't do anything to prevent further crimes. That's revenge and schadenfreude.
What matters is taking measures to prevent crimes before they happen. How do you prevent rape? By combating the culture that blames the victims, and directly addressing the socioeconomic roots of violent crime.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I have never once apologised for rape. It is never OK. It is never justified.

Right. Any idiot can write those words - but someone that thinks women that drink are responsible for getting raped is simply repeating the vilest, scummiest myths of the rape apologists and misogynists. And you, "comrade", go beyond the usual rape apologists by suggesting that the victim should be jailed.


Sometimes there are things the victims could/should have done to avoid being raped.

How dare a woman relax? Off with her head for acting like a full member of society!


You are in your home, no-one should expect to be assaulted there.

No woman should expect to be raped either - though, thanks in part to people like you, it might be prudent. No woman should live in constant, paralysing fear, and no woman should be jailed for relaxing and then getting raped. The very thought is sickening.


I am fine with ppl getting drunk in their homes too (as long as they don't go out).

Oh, we have the permission of the great "Communist" vozhd to get drunk. Do women need to apply for a separate permission?

[Le Socialiste]

I have never once apologised for rape.

Meanwhile, in the same post:


Sometimes there are things the victims could/should have done to avoid being raped.

[Narcissus]

Also it's not just women who are raped. Men get raped too - and I feel exactly the same way about that too.

I never said 'incite others to rape them'.

As I've already said the article in the OP made no mention of drugging. Obviously if she was drugged it is not her fault.

I never said that a rape victim should ever take THE BLAME (as in full responsibility or even most of the responsibility) for being raped. But if it is partly her fault, then it is partly her fault - no use pretending otherwise.

No-one (man nor woman) 'invites' anyone to rape them. Ever.

[Narcissus]

I would, but your question isn't making any fucking sense to me. How is it analogous to rape victims?

Oh yeah, it isn't...

Not yet.

Think of it as a Socratic dialogue. Just answer and I will ask another question.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Why aren't you banned yet?

[Le Socialiste]

According to Narcissus, women should never leave their homes, relax, drink alcohol or use narcotics, dress in ways a man might interpret as being provocative, or be full and participating members of society. Gotcha.

Edit - Oh! Almost forgot: a rape victim, seeing as they are 'partly responsible' for their rape, should also be punished (i.e. jailed). Thanks Narcissus! Can't believe I almost forgot that little gem of yours. :rolleyes:

[#FF0000]

Of course it doesn't justify it. That doesn't mean that it wasn't partly your fault though. This is the main misunderstanding that seems to have occurred. Just because it was partly the victim's fault it doesn't make the crime any less punishable or any better.

No, no, it does mean that it wasn't partly anyone's fault but the person who committed the act.


No-one deserves to have that done to them. That doesn't neccesarily mean however that it isn't partly their fault.

You yourself said that this 16 year old rape victim deserved punishment from the court for being drunk while being raped. What should she be punished for, exactly? Is being drunk a crime? Is she somehow responsible for the actions of others?

No one is at fault for being victim to someone. That is the crux here. You are not responsible, in part or otherwise, for what other people do to you against your will.

Further, it seems like your definition of "making oneself vulnerable" is extremely arbitrary and effectively useless in any real world situation. How does one "make oneself vulnerable"? Do they have to be aware of this decision? If someone gets very drunk in the home of a friend during a small party, and is raped by someone she trusted in an environment she thought was safe, is she guilty of making herself vulnerable?


I didn't know what a fedora was until I googled it just now. Bravo. Ridiculing people who happen to think differently is such a revolutionary thing to do.

Ridiculing people who place blame on rape victims sure is, yeah.


I have a question for you. If a mother gives her son a roofy, and leaves him at the side of a road, and he is kidnapped, is she at all to blame, or does the blame rest solely on the perpetrator of the crime?

Er, yes? Gotta say that's a baffling scenario you constructed here, because it is in no way analogous to what we're talking about here, seeing as that's an instance of someone inflicting something on someone else, again.

[Narcissus]

Right. Any idiot can write those words - but someone that thinks women that drink are responsible for getting raped is simply repeating the vilest, scummiest myths of the rape apologists and misogynists. And you, "comrade", go beyond the usual rape apologists by suggesting that the victim should be jailed.

How dare a woman relax? Off with her head for acting like a full member of society!

No woman should expect to be raped either - though, thanks in part to people like you, it might be prudent. No woman should live in constant, paralysing fear, and no woman should be jailed for relaxing and then getting raped. The very thought is sickening.

Oh, we have the permission of the great "Communist" vozhd to get drunk. Do women need to apply for a separate permission?

All of you! With the women... It's not about women, it's about people (regardless of gender or any other arbitrary bullshit) having horrible things done to them; and educating others that making yourself so drunk that you can't remember anything the next day is akin to just going into a bar and popping a roofie. It's fucking moronic.

I don't care wether it's men or women getting raped, it's traumatic for anyone, and taking steps to make it possible should be avoided.

[Narcissus]

I have a question for you. If a mother gives her son a roofy, and leaves him at the side of a road, and he is kidnapped, is she at all to blame, or does the blame rest solely on the perpetrator of the crime?

Er, yes? Gotta say that's a baffling scenario you constructed here, because it is in no way analogous to what we're talking about here, seeing as that's an instance of someone inflicting something on someone else, again.

So what about if she gives herself a roofie by the side of road, and she is kidnapped? She is not to blame because she did it to herself?

[#FF0000]

So what about if she gives herself a roofie by the side of road, and she is kidnapped? She is not to blame because she did it to herself?

Nope. No court on the planet is going to say that person is culpable in any part for their own kidnapping here.

[Narcissus]

Nope. No court on the planet is going to say that person is culpable in any part for their own kidnapping here.

Then we have something fundamentally wrong. When the women placed her son in danger, and something bad happened - she was at fault. But when she placed herself in danger, and something bad happened, it was not her fault?

[Le Socialiste]

making yourself so drunk that you can't remember anything the next day is akin to just going into a bar and popping a roofie. It's fucking moronic.

Narcissus, question: A drunk girl knocks on someone's door asking for one of their roommates (who she happens to be friends with). Seeing that they're not around, she decides to come in and wait for them. She's clearly past the point of recollecting anything pertaining to that night. If the person who answered the door then proceeds to rape or otherwise assault the woman, is it her fault?

[Charles Marxley]

What's wrong with passing out at the side of the road? Is that a crime that deserves kidnapping as punishment?

Also; Do you think you blubbering to someone over skype about how you aren't really a rape apologist is going to help? Methinks your time here is coming to a close.

[#FF0000]

Then we have something fundamentally wrong. When the women placed her son in danger, and something bad happened - she was at fault. But when she placed herself in danger, and something bad happened, it was not her fault?

No we don't have anything fundamentally wrong other than your ridiculous logic.

In your original scenario, we had a person drugging their kid (crime) and then abandoning them (crime).

In this scenario the only crime is probably taking a controlled substance -- change it to alcohol and you have no crime, other than the kidnapping, committed by someone else, whom the unconscious person has no responsibility over.

[Narcissus]

Narcissus, question: A drunk girl knocks on someone's door asking for one of their roommates (who she happens to be friends with). Seeing that they're not around, she decides to come in and wait for them. She's clearly past the point of recollecting anything pertaining to that night. If the person who answered the door then proceeds to rape or otherwise assault the woman, is it her fault?

She is not so drunk that she cannot walk to a door independently and ask for someone - meeting communist master zorhd's criteria of 'not effectively paralysed' and therefore it is not her fault that she is raped. In my experience not remembering anything about last night, and walking and talking coherently don't usually pair up.

[Narcissus]

No we don't have anything fundamentally wrong other than your ridiculous logic.

In your original scenario, we had a person drugging their kid (crime) and then abandoning them (crime).

In this scenario the only crime is probably taking a controlled substance -- change it to alcohol and you have no crime, other than the kidnapping, committed by someone else, whom the unconscious person has no responsibility over.

The unconscious person has no responsibility for themselves?

[#FF0000]

The unconscious person has no responsibility for themselves?

They do, and they should be held accountable for the things they do within limits while drunk. However, they are not responsible for the things other people do to them them while they are drunk.

It's really simple, dogg.

[Narcissus]

They do, and they should be held accountable for the things they do within limits while drunk. However, they are not responsible for the things other people do to them them while they are drunk.

It's really simple, dogg.

They should be held accountable for EVERYTHING they do while drunk. If they choose to make themselves so drunk they can't move, comprehend, or speak - then they have to take some responsibility for what happens TO them also.

Real simple

[#FF0000]

If they choose to make themselves so drunk they can't move, comprehend, or speak - then they have to take some responsibility for what happens TO them also.

Real simple

So when someone is at their absolute most vulnerable, that is the point where they are most responsible for the actions of other people? Why?

[Narcissus]

So when someone is at their absolute most vulnerable, that is the point where they are most responsible for the actions of other people? Why?

Because those actions would not have occurred without the victim's own actions. The rape is a result of the victim making themselves defenceless.

[Narcissus]

So when someone is at their absolute most vulnerable, that is the point where they are most responsible for the actions of other people? Why?

Aha see exactly. If I am vulnerable and I am raped - not my fault. If I can stand up for myself but I make myself vulnerable and I am raped - that is my fault. I would not have been raped if I hadn't decided to become vulnerable.

[#FF0000]

Because those actions would not have occurred without the victim's own actions.

Plenty of people are raped without alcohol being present. Even when it is a factor, alcohol itself has nothing to do with rape.


The rape is a result of the victim making themselves defenceless.No it is not. The rape is a result of the perpetrator consciously making the decision to violate someone else's bodily autonomy, and nothing else.


Aha see exactly. If I am vulnerable and I am raped - not my fault. If I can stand up for myself but I make myself vulnerable and I am raped - that is my fault. I would not have been raped if I hadn't decided to become vulnerable.

No, because you are not responsible for what other people do to you. You are not responsible for other people violating your bodily autonomy. It is their transgression and theirs alone.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

She needs to recognise that SHE was responsible for making herself vulnerable enough to be taken advantage of.
You need to recognize that you're a misogynist who defends rape culture. I'm getting tired of leftist men spewing this kind of crap. You're supposed to stand up for the victims of exploitation and oppression, not blame them like the right-wing does.


I sure as fuck am a communist.
Anyone who justifies rape is a reactionary. You, sir, are justifying rape. You should be restricted to OI with the rest of the reactionary trash.


It's a sensitive topic. But making a blanket statement like 'rape victims are never responsible for being raped' is stupid.
No, making a statement that rape victims are sometimes to blame for being raped is stupid.


Your mind is tied down by the constaints of this world. If your mind is not free, how can you ever hope to be?
If freedom means blaming rape victims, then fuck freedom.

[Narcissus]

Plenty of people are raped without alcohol being present. Even when it is a factor, alcohol itself has nothing to do with rape..

Alcohol when enough is consumed, poisons you and can leave you in a state of effective paralysis. If you don't paralyse yourself with alcohol - not your fault


No it is not. The rape is a result of the perpetrator consciously making the decision to violate someone else's bodily autonomy, and nothing else.

... and nothing else. Bullshit, and you know it. Sometimes people paralyse themselves and they are raped. If they hadn't paralysed themselves they would not have been raped. Therefore the rape is the result of a rapist who wants to rape somebody, and a person who has left themselves defenceless. Not always, but it happens. To say that it doesn't is to lie.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Because those actions would not have occurred without the victim's own actions. The rape is a result of the victim making themselves defenceless.
No, rape is a result of a rapist deciding to rape someone. Nothing else.

[Narcissus]

You need to recognize that you're a misogynist who defends rape culture. I'm getting tired of leftist men spewing this kind of crap. You're supposed to stand up for the victims of exploitation and oppression, not blame them like the right-wing does.

Anyone who justifies rape is a reactionary. You, sir, are justifying rape. You should be restricted to OI with the rest of the reactionary trash.

No, making a statement that rape victims are sometimes to blame for being raped is stupid.

If freedom means blaming rape victims, then fuck freedom.

1. I'm not a misogynist, I don't care about gender (at all)
2. I don't defend rape culture - rape is never justified
3. Leftist men - I could easily be a leftist woman, it's not important
4. I do stand up for the exploited, but sometimes they play a part in their exploitation.
5. Freedom is always the freedom of the one who thinks differently.

[#FF0000]

Alcohol when enough is consumed, poisons you and can leave you in a state of effective paralysis. If you don't paralyse yourself with alcohol - not your fault

... and nothing else. Bullshit, and you know it. Sometimes people paralyse themselves and they are raped. If they hadn't paralysed themselves they would not have been raped. Therefore the rape is the result of a rapist who wants to rape somebody, and a person who has left themselves defenceless. Not always, but it happens. To say that it doesn't is to lie.

No, because alcohol isn't always a factor in rape. Rape does not happen when people wear revealing clothes, or drink too much. One can go around wearing next to nothing surfing on a tidal wave of alcohol and drugs and not be attacked. The only thing that causes this is someone sitting there and making the decision to hurt someone else. And that's it. It doesn't matter whether they're young, old, drunk, sober, wearing something modest or revealing.

If we are responsible for our own actions, and our own actions alone, then all one who drinks is responsible for is their shitty hangover, or the dumb things they talked about or did. Sexual assault is not something the victim engages in. It is something inflicted upon them against their will. If someone is sexually assaulted, they are not responsible in any way because sexual assault only occurs when another individual makes the conscious decision to have sexual relations with someone who cannot or does not consent.

[#FF0000]

words

I always appreciate no-bullshit call-outs like this, but I think it's a lot more fun to watch him labor beneath the weight of his own convoluted and half-baked logic than to attack him directly and give him an "out".

[Narcissus]

If I wrap myself up in duct-tape and then I am pushed over, is it my fault? Or was the person who pushed me over a pusher, who was always going to push someone.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

5. Freedom is always the freedom of the one who thinks differently.
But wasn't it partly Rosa's fault she was executed? :rolleyes:

[Narcissus]

But wasn't it partly Rosa's fault she was executed? :rolleyes:

Of course it was. That doesn't mean it was justified.

[#FF0000]

If I wrap myself up in duct-tape and then I am pushed over, is it my fault? Or was the person who pushed me over a pusher, who was always going to push someone.

Uh, yeah, it's that person's "fault" (this is another shitty analogy though, since pushing someone over could just be horseplay?)

Fact of the matter is, rape is rape. If someone can't or does not consent, you have no right to engage in sexual relations with them, no matter what their condition or state of mind. You said earlier, we aren't talking about children who don't know the consequences of their actions -- and I agree. Someone who hurts someone like this has no excuses. They know, or ought to know, better, whether the person they hurt is drunk, sober, or whatever.

[Sasha]

I don't know why I'm reminded of those people who say that women shouldn't wear revealing clothes since that might get them raped, even of people who think those women should be punished.
That said, narcissus can take his disgusting rape apoligism somewhere else, banned the piece of shit.

[Sasha]

Also;
.

At one point of the night of the incident, Westlake, who was sober, determined that his friend Mark Cole was too drunk to make a 10-minute drive home. At first, Cole refused to turn over his keys, claiming he could operate his Volkswagen Jetta just fine. Westlake was undeterred, though, eventually "tricking" Cole by waiting for him to relax and then forcibly seizing the keys. Yet maybe a half-hour later, Westlakewalked in on thegirl,sprawled out naked in the middle of a basement floor. To her side was Mays, exposed and slapping his penis on the girl's hip. Behind her was Richmond, who, Westlake said, was violating her with two fingers.

Westlake said goodbye to the guys and kept walking. A good friend with his eye on the safety of others just minutes before was suddenly unaware or unsure of what to do – or simply uncaring enough to do anything at all.

"Something has gotten in there that said, 'OK, we need to prevent drinking and driving,' " Hanna said. "We need to take it to that level with preventing sexual assault."

[Art Vandelay]

The boys took advantage of her. If she was not drunk though, she would not have been in a position to be taken advantage of. This doesn't make what the boys did any less deplorable/horrifying, but I think the girl has to recognise that what happened would not have been possible if she had been responsible enough to not drink too much. She made the decision to get drunk, and when you make that decision you need to realise that YOU are responsible for the consequences.

I have absolutely no idea how you resolve this legally. I'm torn. It doesn't make what the boys did OK in the slightest.

I think the boys must go to jail for rape, and the girl needs to be punished in some way too. Maybe send her to jail for enabling rape. I don't know. Both parties are at fault, but obviously what the boys did was worse.

In case you see this, I'm happy you're banned.

[Skyhilist]

Wait so let me get this straight: a girl and some guys on a football team got drunk. She woke up without clothes on and was confused about what happened, not remembering what took place when she was drunk. She suspected that she's had sex and that it wasn't consensual. Others who were there testified that this was true because she was unresponsive while these kids were having sex with her.
I mean I've done a few things while drunk by choice that I didn't remember doing at all the next day and could only have speculated about had other people not told me what I had done. At first I thought that maybe the assumption that she had been raped (and that it wasn't consensual but really drunk and hard to remember) might have been unwarrented given the girl's memory. But if this is true about others testifying that she was unresponsive while the guys had sex with her, then that's definitely scumbag behavior and deserves to be punished. I don't think prison is going to solve anything though, because it does nothing to address the root of the problem, which is why such kids would rape in the first place. I mean their modest isn't going to be any better once they get out of prison...

[#FF0000]

Wait so let me get this straight: a girl and some guys on a football team got drunk. She woke up without clothes on and was confused about what happened, not remembering what took place when she was drunk. She suspected that she's had sex and that it wasn't consensual. Others who were there testified that this was true because she was unresponsive while these kids were having sex with her.
I mean I've done a few things while drunk by choice that I didn't remember doing at all the next day and could only have speculated about had other people not told me what I had done. At first I thought that maybe the assumption that she had been raped (and that it wasn't consensual but really drunk and hard to remember) might have been unwarrented given the girl's memory. But if this is true about others testifying that she was unresponsive while the guys had sex with her, then that's definitely scumbag behavior and deserves to be punished. I don't think prison is going to solve anything though, because it does nothing to address the root of the problem, which is why such kids would rape in the first place. I mean their modest isn't going to be any better once they get out of prison...

the dudes took and sent pictures of her while unconscious all over twitter and facebook and literally said they raped her on a video they took, laughing about it.

Might want to google things, dogg.

[Le Socialiste]

Words.

It's all in here:

"The Steubenville Files." (http://localleaks.me/localleaks/steubenvillefiles/index.html)

[Skyhilist]

the dudes took and sent pictures of her while unconscious all over twitter and facebook and literally said they raped her on a video they took, laughing about it.

Might want to google things, dogg.

I knew the first part but was unaware of the second part. I sort of just skimmed the article to be honest. My apologies.

[Skyhilist]

Wow that video is pretty disturbing, jeez. I sincerely apologize for my ignorance, it seems I did not have the whole story about how misogynistic these kids were. The last part of my original statement about prison however I still maintain to be true.

[Art Vandelay]

Honestly I'm reading through this 'localleaks' file and much of it is just blowing my mind like: "this can't be true!" Then I remember just how serious the states takes their highschool football, 50 000 people at a game (haha what?) and it all becomes that more plausible.

[Art Vandelay]

I just made it through the whole 'localleaks' file and I'm honestly just disoriented and sick at the moment. First off, all I can think of is how bad I feel for this young woman. As a young man (and quite frankly to this day) I drank myself into a ridiculous state of intoxication (on my own being, not because I was drugged) to the point where I had to be carried home by my friends. The difference here being that I"M A MAN; so given this fact I didn't have to worry about being raped by my ex and her friends.

Secondly, this whole fucking town should be sickened by the children they have raised. I realize that it isn't the whole town that has raised these kids, nor is it the whole town of parents who are complicit, but the fact that they have sat by and done NOTHING, while this has been happening blows my fucking mind. I don't even have a daughter, but all I can think is, what if that was your daughter? Not someone else's. It honestly almost brings me to tears thinking about what if this was my girlfriend? What if some sadistic fucking losers had used her like a piece of meat in this fashion? I'd probably fucking murder them and spend the rest of my life in prison.

The fact that the highschool staff, involved in this haven't been publically hanged, let alone fired is beyond me. Like I realize I'm coming accross like a sociopath in this post and tmro I'll have calmed down and realized that two rights don't make a wrong and they should be punished, but not to the extent that I am saying here (and I even now know this to be true) but god damn is my blood boiling.

Ahhh, fuck. If I had been at the party that night I would of went into the garage, found a baseball bat and proceeded to take it to as many people who were complicit's knee caps before I got the shit kicked out of me, since I'm just a skinny white boy who isn't tough, by this 'rape crew.'

[Luís Henrique]

I have absolutely no idea how you resolve this legally. I'm torn. It doesn't make what the boys did OK in the slightest.

I think the boys must go to jail for rape, and the girl needs to be punished in some way too. Maybe send her to jail for enabling rape. I don't know. Both parties are at fault, but obviously what the boys did was worse.

It seems you don't understand the difference between the juridical concept of guilt and the popular use of the word "guilt".

Allowing yourself to go completely drunk may be a stupid thing to do, but it is not juridically relevant. You have a right to get drunk. It is not a criminal offence. No one has a right to abuse people in comatose or semi-comatose state. It is a criminal offence.

So, only the rapists must be legally punished. Regarding the law, she is completely innocent. She is not going to face any kind of investigation or trial, and that is like it should be. The rapists are going to be investigated and tried, and if things are like they seem to be, they will be sentenced and convicted. And that is like it should be, too - considerations about what penalty should be applied apart.

Of course, if you were her, you might consider reevaluating the place of alcohol in your life. But that is a private problem, not a public one - and crime is a public issue, not a private one. And in the event you didn't reconsider your drinking habits, it would still not make you responsible for that rape, or for any further one that might be related with your unhealthy drinking habits. Nor it would be anyone else's problem.

Luis Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Then we have something fundamentally wrong. When the women placed her son in danger, and something bad happened - she was at fault. But when she placed herself in danger, and something bad happened, it was not her fault?

Of course. If you don't take care of yourself, that's your problem. If you don't take care of someone you are legally responsible for, it is a legal problem, quite possibly a crime. And there is nothing wrong with this, fundamentally or otherwise.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

They should be held accountable for EVERYTHING they do while drunk. If they choose to make themselves so drunk they can't move, comprehend, or speak - then they have to take some responsibility for what happens TO them also.

Well, of course. They may die of intoxication, or they may get mugged, or they may be raped. But this isn't legal responsibility, man. If I forget the keys of my car inside it, and it is stolen, I may consider myself stupid for it, or the police officer to whom I report the theft may consider me stupid. But the only crime to be punished is the theft, not the negligence about the keys.

It is really simple, but you seem not to understand it.

Luís Henrique

[Quail]

I don't log in for a couple of days and come back to this? I am disappointed that these conversations come up so often and we have to ban so many so-called "leftists" for rape apologism. If revleft is an accurate sample of leftists, there must be a hell of a lot of rape apologists lurking out there in the anarchist and communist movements.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I don't log in for a couple of days and come back to this? I am disappointed that these conversations come up so often and we have to ban so many so-called "leftists" for rape apologism. If revleft is an accurate sample of leftists, there must be a hell of a lot of rape apologists lurking out there in the anarchist and communist movements.

That seems to be the case, sadly. Just as there are quite a few general misogynists, homophobes, transphobes and even racists and ethnic chauvinists in the movement. But I would draw a line between a worker passively parroting the dominant ideology - which is not to say that what they're doing isn't wrong, it is, and needs to be corrected as soon as possible - and someone that actively advocates letting rapists off the hook or, like our vozhd saint Narcissus the Teetotaler, punishing rape victims. Those people go beyond even the dominant bourgeois ideology in the sick logic of rape apologia, and then have the gall to call themselves socialists.

The former category should be educated and corrected; the latter needs to be booted out of the movement immediately.

I am not usually glad to see someone banned, but this is one of the exceptions. Good riddance to bad garbage, and let us hope that idiot is never in a position of overt power over a woman.

[Le Libérer]

FFS...
Thread closed.