Another stalinist crime: Ukraine famine!

[Delenda Carthago]

Average population (x 1000)
1925 29,732
1940 40,649

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

Obviously , if the numbers that the capitalists are telling us are true, the average Ukrainian woman gave birth to 47 kids in her lifetime, 34 of which during those stalinist years.:laugh:

[Delenda Carthago]

Collectivization of Agriculture Saved The World from Nazis and Japanese…

We have an example of this ideological bias in the way anticommunist scholars and writers treat the Bolshevik collectivization of agriculture. Anticommunists have long attacked it as immoral and unjustified. Yet collectivization provided the capital for the crash industrialization of the USSR. And only industrialization made a modern Red army possible.
Without a technologically-advanced modern army the Nazis would have conquered the USSR. Then, with the resources and manpower of the USSR and the rest of Europe behind them, the Nazis could have invaded the British Isles. Nazi armies would have been a far more formidable foe against all Allied powers. Meanwhile the Japanese, strengthened by the petroleum of the Soviet Far East, would have been a far more formidable enemy for the USA in the Pacific war.
Millions more Slavs and Jews – "Untermenschen" to the Nazis – and millions more Europeans and American soldiers – would have been killed. That this did not occur can be attributed, in large part, to the Soviet collectivization of agriculture. This is an obvious conclusion. There was simply no other way than by collectivizing agriculture that the USSR could have industrialized, and thus stood up to the Nazis and Japanese.
The only alternative was the one promoted by the Right and Trotskyite conspirators: to make peace with the Germans and Japanese, even if that meant granting them huge trade and territorial concessions. That would have greatly strengthened the Axis powers in their war against the U.K. and the USA.
For purely ideological reasons anticommunists cannot admit that collectivization made it possible for the Axis to be defeated.


http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/research/trials_ezhovshchina_update0710.html

[Delenda Carthago]

Dear Grover Furr, ... Regarding your comment about my essay: your argument of the periodic famines in the Russian countryside is very strong and persuasive! As for the collectivization of the agriculture, I agree with you that it was the precondition for victory in WW2. (I have expressed this opinion in my Stalin-book). But I cannot define as a triumph a terrible civil war, that implied the disappearing of every rule of law and made the very large, arbitrary killing by Ezov possible. Only in this sense I speak of «horror» (as you have written, Stalin himself spoke of a «fearful» period). Sometimes history is tragic: in its last stage the struggle of Toussaint Louverture was a racial war and in this sense was horrible, but at the same time this struggle was a great step to emancipation of the black people and of the mankind.
Best, Domenico Losurdo

http://domenicolosurdo.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/lo-storico-statunitense-grover-furr.html

[Delenda Carthago]

Le Livre Noire du Communisme on the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933 (http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/Tauger,%20Chapter%20for%20Roter%20Holocaust%20book %20b.pdf)

[Delenda Carthago]

Stalin, grain stocks and the famine of 1932-1933 (http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/Davies,%20Tauger,%20and%20Wheatcroft,%20%27Stalin, %20Grain%20Stocks...%27,%20SR%2095.pdf)

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Have some respect for the victims of the mad sorcerer Stalin and his weather manipulation and mind control.


The only alternative was the one promoted by the Right and Trotskyite conspirators: to make peace with the Germans and Japanese, even if that meant granting them huge trade and territorial concessions. That would have greatly strengthened the Axis powers in their war against the U.K. and the USA.

When was that alternative promoted? Perhaps it was during the meetings of this mythical Block of Fascists, Rightists, Trotskyists and Zinovievites. You know, the block that (as the meticulous investigations of the comrades Yagoda, Ezhov and Beria show) controlled nearly the entire party (including the comrades Yagoda and Ezhov). Pity the Block-heads spent all of their time accusing one another of being Trotskyists and fascists and having each other shot; they could really have advanced the permanent revolution by giving half of Russia to the Axis.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Careful Delenda, some liberal might call you an apologist for genocide :rolleyes:.

[Rurkel]

Wow, articles linked in posts #4 and #5 are actually good :blink: After #2 (and the rather bizarre OP) I was expecting the worst.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Average population (x 1000)
1925 29,732
1940 40,649

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

Obviously , if the numbers that the capitalists are telling us are true, the average Ukrainian woman gave birth to 47 kids in her lifetime, 34 of which during those stalinist years.:laugh:


What are the numbers you believe the historians (mislabelled capitalists) say?

[Tim Cornelis]

"The World Almanac for 1940 gives the world's Jewish population as 15,319,359. The World Almanac for 1949 puts the number of Jews in the world at 15,713,638.

"If the World Almanac figures are correct, "the world's Jewish population did not decrease in the war decade, but showed a small increase."

:laugh: haha, Holocaust didn't happen!

[Invader Zim]

So what is the aim of this thread? To deny that the famine actually occurred, as the first post seemingly attempts, to challenge the collective historical memory of the event and downplay both the extent and lethality of the famine, or to absolve the regime in Moscow from responsibility?

The OP has tragically failed to achieve any of these goals. To take the first post, the issue is not considering whether, or not, the Ukrainian population rose in the 15 years between 1925-1940, but whether it rose as much as historians have established it should have done and what the influence of the famine was on birth and death rates in key regions. And I have yet to see anybody, except our resident in-denial Stalin apologist Delenda, suggest that a deadly famine did not occur.

The second post, which quotes the charlatan Grover Furr, attempts to suggest that the collectivization policies of the Stalinist regime 'saved' the Soviet Union, and by extension the rest of the world (quite a claim) from the Axis powers. This does not show that this process of industrialization could not have been adequately conducted differently or more efficiently.



And I'm absolutely sure that you have not even read, let alone understood the article by Davies, Tauger and Wheatcroft, which certainly does not agree with the rest of the nonsense you have been saying. Read the final paragraph, it says it all.

[black magick hustla]

wow ive seen delendas evolution from an anarchist to some anti revisionist nerd. didnt know the kke kool-aid was that convincing. i have a long forum memory

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

wow ive seen delendas evolution from an anarchist to some anti revisionist nerd. didnt know the kke kool-aid was that convincing. i have a long forum memory
So tell me Grand Old Man, was it a gradual evolution or one made by frantic leaps and bounds?

[Delenda Carthago]

:laugh: haha, Holocaust didn't happen!
How many jews were in the leadership of NSDAP? And how many ukrainians were in the CC of CPSU?

[Tim Cornelis]

How many jews were in the leadership of NSDAP? And how many ukrainians were in the CC of CPSU?

That doesn't prove anything. Ukrainians can't kill Ukrainians? This entire thread is beyond ridiculous.

[Manic Impressive]

So tell me Grand Old Man, was it a gradual evolution or one made by frantic leaps and bounds?
It was frantic leaps, it was actually one of the saddest things I've ever seen on this forum. I remember him saying something like "you guys can't understand what it's like for me in Greece at the moment". He seemed genuinely scared. I guess it goes to show that when we face extreme circumstances our principles are severely tested and no-one can know how they'll react until they are in that situation. I think it was also to do with the level of violence the anarchists were using at the time and he saw the KKE as the only viable alternative to the current crisis in Greece.

[Delenda Carthago]

That doesn't prove anything. Ukrainians can't kill Ukrainians? This entire thread is beyond ridiculous.
Really? So a genocide of a nation was actually orchestrated by the evil commies, some of whom have been from that nation. While at the same time, we are talking about the last famine in a country that had periodical famines on a circle more or less of 4 years, with much greater casualties. Last but not least, the numbers are showing us that mathematicly the theory of 20.000.000 victims or whatever could never be true.

Yeah. Seems legit.


And btw, how do you respond to that, completly rational argument about the numbers? You equate it with nazi Holocaust. Nice job, I m sure there must be a programm founded by the EU that you can get paid for doing that kind of posts. Look it up.


And the thing is, behind all these, a tendecy of the capitalists to demonize communism by its own acts of being: collectivization.


And last but not least: I brought historians papers that give answers to all these. why dont you bring your sources, which is obviously the Black Book of Communism, and lets see facts. After that, anyone can make his own conclusions.

[Delenda Carthago]

It was frantic leaps, it was actually one of the saddest things I've ever seen on this forum. I remember him saying something like "you guys can't understand what it's like for me in Greece at the moment". He seemed genuinely scared. I guess it goes to show that when we face extreme circumstances our principles are severely tested and no-one can know how they'll react until they are in that situation. I think it was also to do with the level of violence the anarchists were using at the time and he saw the KKE as the only viable alternative to the current crisis in Greece.
:laugh:

[Fourth Internationalist]

Last but not least, the numbers are showing us that mathematicly the theory of 20.000.000 victims or whatever could never be true.

Wasn't the number of victims 3 million, not 20 million?

[Tim Cornelis]

Really? So a genocide of a nation was actually orchestrated by the evil commies, some of whom have been from that nation. While at the same time, we are talking about the last famine in a country that had periodical famines on a circle more or less of 4 years, with much greater casualties. Last but not least, the numbers are showing us that mathematicly the theory of 20.000.000 victims or whatever could never be true.

Yeah. Seems legit.

No one claims 20,000,000 victims. I'm not claiming it was genocide. And yes Ukrainians can kill Ukrainians.


And btw, how do you respond to that, completly rational argument about the numbers? You equate it with nazi Holocaust. Nice job, I m sure there must be a programm founded by the EU that you can get paid for doing that kind of posts. Look it up.

Comparing, analogy =/= equating.



And the thing is, behind all these, a tendecy of the capitalists to demonize communism by its own acts of being: collectivization.

Yet another fallacy. What the facts are used for does not pertain to whether they are true or not.


And last but not least: I brought historians papers that give answers to all these. why dont you bring your sources, which is obviously the Black Book of Communism, and lets see facts. After that, anyone can make his own conclusions.

My source: official Soviet archives.

[Philosopher Jay]

Hi Invader Zim,

The article by Davies, Tauger and Wheatcroft does point out that there were no stock piles of grain that the government could have used to stop the famine. That, I think, is the key conclusion of the article. It means that the famine was not caused deliberately as some kind of planned genocide, as some have charged.

The question if anything could have been done to prevent the famine is an open one. The article suggests that calling for international aid would have been an important step towards ameliorating the famine. However, the famine took place during the depression in the United States and Europe. It is hardly probable that the United States or Europe would have sent food to the Soviet Union when tens of millions of its own citizens were getting food from "Breadlines" every day. Certainly such an appeal would have helped the fascists in Germany and Italy who equated Soviet power with barbarism.


So what is the aim of this thread? To deny that the famine actually occurred, as the first post seemingly attempts, to challenge the collective historical memory of the event and downplay both the extent and lethality of the famine, or to absolve the regime in Moscow from responsibility?

The OP has tragically failed to achieve any of these goals. To take the first post, the issue is not considering whether, or not, the Ukrainian population rose in the 15 years between 1925-1940, but whether it rose as much as historians have established it should have done and what the influence of the famine was on birth and death rates in key regions. And I have yet to see anybody, except our resident in-denial Stalin apologist Delenda, suggest that a deadly famine did not occur.

The second post, which quotes the charlatan Grover Furr, attempts to suggest that the collectivization policies of the Stalinist regime 'saved' the Soviet Union, and by extension the rest of the world (quite a claim) from the Axis powers. This does not show that this process of industrialization could not have been adequately conducted differently or more efficiently.



And I'm absolutely sure that you have not even read, let alone understood the article by Davies, Tauger and Wheatcroft, which certainly does not agree with the rest of the nonsense you have been saying. Read the final paragraph, it says it all.

[Invader Zim]

The article by Davies, Tauger and Wheatcroft does point out that there were no stock piles of grain that the government could have used to stop the famine. That, I think, is the key conclusion of the article. It means that the famine was not caused deliberately as some kind of planned genocide, as some have charged.

Not quite, it means that, contrary to the assertions of Robert Conquest, among others, that there were not pre-famine grain stocks to withhold from famine victims. It certainly does not absolve the regime from responsibility for the famine - quite the reverse. Whether or not that responsibility extends to the active attempt to slaughter Ukrainians or was merely a callous disregard for human lives which were deemed secondary to the policy of collectivization and industrialization (a factor which undoubtedly hugely exacerbated the famine and played a major role in its development into a massively lethal tragedy), is a matter of continuing debate which will likely never be resolved. I suspect that it was the latter case, but we will likely never get to the bottom of it. Regardless, it was a tragedy which should have been prevented and the Stalinist regime did not do so.

[Philosopher Jay]

It is difficult to understand how members of the government could have felt it was in their interests to have hundreds of thousands (or more) of Ukrainians dying of hunger. Ineptness is probably the more correct charge if it was not an unforeseeable natural disaster.

[Old Bolshie]

It is difficult to understand how members of the government could have felt it was in their interests to have hundreds of thousands (or more) of Ukrainians dying of hunger.

The soviet state was waging a war against the Kulaks who were mainly located in Ukraine. Their goal was to exterminate them as a class and force them into collectivization. Starvation could have been use as a weapon to achieve this goal.

"Now we have the opportunity to carry out a resolute offensive against the kulaks, break their resistance, eliminate them as a class and replace their production with the production of kolkhozes and sovkhozes."

J.V. Stalin.


Ineptness is probably the more correct charge if it was not an unforeseeable natural disaster.I also don't believe in genocide since not only Ukrainians were targeted by the collectivization and victims of the famine. It happens that the Kulaks farms were mainly located in Ukraine.

However, it would be interesting to see the exportation figures of grain in USSR during those years since some sources appoint to the fact that the soviet government continued to export millions tonnes of grain during the starvation.

[garrus]

Obviously , if the numbers that the capitalists are telling us are true, the average Ukrainian woman gave birth to 47 kids in her lifetime, 34 of which during those stalinist years.

It's a crime of turning women in to baby factories.:rolleyes:

[Delenda Carthago]

bump, since Stalin is again a trend in the forum.

[Comrade Jacob]

How dare you be an apologist to the murder who killed more than half of his population during the biggest war in human history, controls weather and turns women into baby factories, this is criminal!
:grin: