Could anyone explain to me what the rationale of "White Nationalism" is?

[Comrade Nasser]

What is it that these people want? It's not 1942 anymore, and their fuhrer is dead. Why can't they get over it? Besides even if they got their "all-white nation" (This is what I assume they want, although it will NEVER happen) their will still be ethnic conflict and racial discrimination, but not on the basis of skin color. They would begin to discriminate based on hair color, eye color, facial structure, etc. So what is the point of their political "movement"? (if you can even call it that). What is it that they hope to gain? Maybe people would actually take them seriously if they lost the swastika tattoos and bedsheets.

[LOLseph Stalin]

From what I gather they feel that the white race is "endangered" due to inter-racial marriages and such. However, science says we'll apparently all eventually become one race anyway so really it's pretty redundant.

[Comrade Nasser]

But what is the point of it all? Why do they care about who others have sex with? A comrade of mine told me that they are saddened by these mixed marriages because no one will sleep with them and are upset that the white women are not attracted to them anymore and only want to date black men. Ridiculous.

Pic related, these are "white nationalists"

[Riveraxis]

They would disagree with you.

See, they overlook class struggle. They truly believe that unifying people on the basis of race and nationality alone is enough. They believe that there is no need to do wrong to one another if we're all of the same race.
I can't act like I understand their logic, but I am up on their politically-correct slogans.

For instance, a fascist of any sort will oppose immigration because they are "stealing someone else's opportunity". From this I gather that they are *aware* there is a class struggle. They are aware that they are just rationing their luck. But seem convinced that there is enough to go around, if only there weren't outsiders.

There may be a handful of fascists who can you give you a run-for-your-money on rhetoric alone. There is a legitimate philosophy behind fascism. It's just that most of them are too bogged down by hate and prejudice to articulate it. They don't care to explain themselves to anybody because they don't respect anybody.

[Comrade Nasser]

They would disagree with you.

See, they overlook class struggle. They truly believe that unifying people on the basis of race and nationality alone is enough. They believe that there is no need to do wrong to one another if we're all of the same race.
I can't act like I understand their logic, but I am up on their politically-correct slogans.

For instance, a fascist of any sort will oppose immigration because they are "stealing someone else's opportunity". From this I gather that they are *aware* there is a class struggle. They are aware that they are just rationing their luck. But seem convinced that there is enough to go around, if only there weren't outsiders.

There may be a handful of fascists who can you give you a run-for-your-money on rhetoric alone. There is a legitimate philosophy behind fascism. It's just that most of them are too bogged down by hate and prejudice to articulate it. They don't care to explain themselves to anybody because they don't respect anybody.

You're exactly right! Maybe if they got past the irrational hatred of other "races" they might have an ideology that could hold some ground. But no, go to any "White Nationalist" website (not going to link them here, don't wan't them to flood us with trolls) all it is about is how much they hate "race-mixing" and racial minorities. You rarely ever see any political discussion, and if you do, it is laced with racial hatred (Anti-Semetic, Anti-Immigration, etc.). I do think there are some bright fascists, but they use their intellectual capabilities for the wrong cause.

[LOLseph Stalin]

You're exactly right! Maybe if they got past the irrational hatred of other "races" they might have an ideology that could hold some ground. But no, go to any "White Nationalist" website (not going to link them here, don't wan't them to flood us with trolls) all it is about is how much they hate "race-mixing" and racial minorities. You rarely ever see any political discussion, and if you do, it is laced with racial hatred (Anti-Semetic, Anti-Immigration, etc.). I do think there are some bright fascists, but they use their intellectual capabilities for the wrong cause.

I find that is kind of the point though, to have an ideology that appeals to simple minded people. Fascism is also very effective at appealing to emotion, that's a way to easily win people over. We tend to scare a lot of people off since we tend to rely on intellectualism more than emotion.

[Comrade Nasser]

I find that is kind of the point though, to have an ideology that appeals to simple minded people. Fascism is also very effective at appealing to emotion, that's a way to easily win people over. We tend to scare a lot of people off since we tend to rely on intellectualism more than emotion.

I know what you mean. Once you tell people that your a socialist, anarchist, trotskyist, Marxist, Leninist, Maoist, communist, etc, etc. People automatically assume your some kind of red flag waving, Nazi-killing, atheist (although some of us are, LOL). Same reaction with Nazism, but these people have a way to play on people emotions, where we usually do not.

[Nevsky]

Modern day nazis are basically the waste of modern society. They despise the ruling liberal-capitalist ideology and search for easy idol worship instead of analysing the situation rationally. Thus, these kind of people often end up worshiping an imaginary "golden age" with noble values and so on (although this is already more for the intellectual fascists). The irony is that these self proclaimed defenders of culture are almost always degenerates themselves who stand out through their primitive and aggressive behavior.

[Jimmie Higgins]

What is it that these people want? It's not 1942 anymore, and their fuhrer is dead. Why can't they get over it? Besides even if they got their "all-white nation" (This is what I assume they want, although it will NEVER happen) their will still be ethnic conflict and racial discrimination, but not on the basis of skin color. They would begin to discriminate based on hair color, eye color, facial structure, etc. So what is the point of their political "movement"? (if you can even call it that). What is it that they hope to gain? Maybe people would actually take them seriously if they lost the swastika tattoos and bedsheets.

I think it may be a sort of internalization of the condition of having to fight over crumbs in this society. Workers might be drawn into the orbit of these ideas through cynically concluding that if everyone can't have a job and a decent living in this society then it's better to fight for a reinforced caste sort of hierarchy that favors them. This has been especially true for anti-immigrant and anti-migrant movements (though often initiated and organized by media and politicians... in the US: from the anti-chineese hysteria prompted by frequent editorials in San Francisco and Los Angeles press 100 years ago to Lou Dobbs and FOX today).

But for the petty-bourgois I think the appeal is for a ridged social order: keeping "problem people" (ethnic competition, the unemployed, unruly workers) suppressed and bringing order to the economy. It's a reaction to both the problems of capitalism and the working class responce to those problems.

[Neoprime]

When they say they want an all-white society they mean one were all whites are racially conscience(racist/racialist) and are of like mind as them, not necessary just being white(skin/phenotype/distinct features) and they have a mindset toward white culture as well, meaning blacks, Jews Hispanics, Asians alike can join as long they realize respect/submit to a white culture similar how Roman Empire was toward other religions in Rome.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

However, science says we'll apparently all eventually become one race anyway so really it's pretty redundant.
We already are. All living humans belong to Homo sapiens sapiens.

[Comrade Nasser]

When they say they want an all-white society they mean one were all whites are racially conscience(racist/racialist) and are of like mind as them, not necessary just being white(skin/phenotype/distinct features) and they have a mindset toward white culture as well, meaning blacks, Jews Hispanics, Asians alike can join as long they realize respect/submit to a white culture similar how Roman Empire was toward other religions in Rome.

I was under the assumption that they wanted an all-white society free of "non-white vermin"? From what i've experienced they are xenophobic and hate other races.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I was under the assumption that they wanted an all-white society free of "non-white vermin"? From what i've experienced they are xenophobic and hate other races.

I think that is the difference between White Nationalists and White Supremacists.

[Paul Pott]

At the heart of it, whether they call themselves "white nationalists", "white separatists", or something else, is the belief that non-whites are inferior, pollute white communities, and must at least be separated from whites. They often couch it in terms of racial self-determination, and you sometimes see white nationalists and reactionary black nationalists work together since the latter want racial segregation for their own reasons.

It's a more modern form of the opposition to "race mixing" and desegregation from the 50s and 60s, but instead of trying to stop it they want to undo it and build some sort of racially pure utopia.

It's white zionism.

[Paul Pott]

I think it may be a sort of internalization of the condition of having to fight over crumbs in this society. Workers might be drawn into the orbit of these ideas through cynically concluding that if everyone can't have a job and a decent living in this society then it's better to fight for a reinforced caste sort of hierarchy that favors them. This has been especially true for anti-immigrant and anti-migrant movements (though often initiated and organized by media and politicians... in the US: from the anti-chineese hysteria prompted by frequent editorials in San Francisco and Los Angeles press 100 years ago to Lou Dobbs and FOX today).

But for the petty-bourgois I think the appeal is for a ridged social order: keeping "problem people" (ethnic competition, the unemployed, unruly workers) suppressed and bringing order to the economy. It's a reaction to both the problems of capitalism and the working class responce to those problems.

This. Historically, the most problematic working class militancy in the US was from blacks. Especially post-WWII.

To this day nothing scares the petty bourgeoisie more than angry working class black men, and this is reflected in some of the vitriol directed at Obama, such as where they portray him as some 1960s radical trying to destroy "white" America, whereas Herman Cain was fine.

[Red Commissar]

White supremacists generally buy into the following nonsense.

-The idea of the "white" race being inherently superior. Yeah, this one is obvious but the rationale behind it is something that was once accepted in 1800s anthropology. These "scientists" then thought that the white race (or more specifically, northern and western Europeans) had a genetic basis to their higher standing in the world. There was a lot of nonsense then about even trying to tie this to the anatomy of Caucasians to other races, you can see this a lot with the interest in skull sizes then.

Of course this later got discredited but its influence remained in fringe circles. The white nationalist might think that racial mixing has diluted the superior stock, which tends to those in the US to be Germanic or Nordic, and that is responsible for the world's problems right now. "Multiculturalism" and immigration they tie to a conspiracy by some group (varies depending on the outfit) to subjugate them more easily by making these superior traits disappear.

The notion of the bell curve and intelligence has been taken up by these groups to argue for a biological basis for intelligence which by extension for them means they are capable of modernity.

-Tying into above, they try to tie western civilization as superior to all. This is an idea that has weight not only in white supremacist circles but the right wing circles in general, and unfortunately even among some who think of themselves as progressive. They hold the position that all good things in the world have originated from the west while all the bad, backwards stuff comes from outside it. White supremacists will often make a lot of noise about culture because they think that things like democracy, capitalism, the constitution, and generally a "modern" civilization was only possible because of the superiority of *insert nationality here*.

This leads to their warped conception that most criminals are black because their culture is backwards, that people from the Middle-East are violent because their culture is that way, that South Asians are more subservient, Africans are unable to do anything, etc etc. When a nation is doing right by them it's because they have incorporated superior notions from the west.

So they'll look at the achievements of the United States in the case of white supremacists here, and feel it is threatened by multiculturalism and "political correctness" because they attribute continued success as maintenance of cultural purity. White Supremacists have gotten into the mentality that this is being threatened, again as with above, by Liberals, Marxists, or whoever trying to conquer them.

So as they look at the world with its economic problems and crime, they'll attribute it solely to what they assign as degenerate cultures. In the United States they'll see Mexicans and blacks as coming from lazy and dependent cultures that are wrecking the economy and making crime, or Muslims as an existential threat because they are diametrically opposed to values they consider as being unique to the west and by extension "white". So they create their white nationalism as their justification for defending it.

White supremacists often get a lot more traction in areas that are economically troubled. White nationalists as such often take a lot of seemingly anti-capitalist positions, or more accurately anti-free market, to dress up in populist positions their ideology. They'll cater to prejudiced beliefs about minorities by blaming them for economic woes, typically a combination of welfare and taking jobs, or violence. Or acting like they're modern in human rights and that they're only protecting them from enemies. So we will often get weird things like white supremacists rallying against supposed islamicization of the west because it endangers their values which they hold as unique and modern. This is of course them not seeing the irony in while bashing all Muslims for not being conductive for womens' rights, that they have their own very paternalistic views on white women.

The media has grown a lot of beliefs about this, we are bombarded almost daily by some variation of China or India "taking" jobs, reporting on a crime that involves a minority, "welfare queens", trouble in the Middle-East, etc. combined with exceptionalism about the exclusive virtues of American values. What is manipulated for easy votes by politicians gets turned into more violent outlets like white supremacy. Throw in endangered middle-class types who're lashing out at the world and you got a pool for idiots.

[Comrade Nasser]

I think that is the difference between White Nationalists and White Supremacists.

There's a difference?

[Comrade Nasser]

From what I gather they feel that the white race is "endangered" due to inter-racial marriages and such. However, science says we'll apparently all eventually become one race anyway so really it's pretty redundant.

From the capitalist social construct view on "race" I am a "non-white" who used to folllow Christianity. And my girlfriend is a "white" Jesus freak who I don't know how to convert to our cause, but that's a whole different story. I don't think the "white nationalists" would be too fond of me or my relationship.

[Taters]

There's a difference?
Well, the Nationalists want to turn the racial identity into a national identity as well. As in a nation for whites, and a nation for blacks, et cetera.


And my girlfriend is a "white" Jesus freak who I don't know how to convert to our cause, but that's a whole different story.
Not to get too off-course, but as for "conversion" perhaps quoting some bible verses at her would get some discussions going. Jesus freaks love bible verses.


Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

And quite a few more like that one.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I think that is the difference between White Nationalists and White Supremacists.

There's no difference.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

But what is the point of it all? Why do they care about who others have sex with? A comrade of mine told me that they are saddened by these mixed marriages because no one will sleep with them and are upset that the white women are not attracted to them anymore and only want to date black men. Ridiculous.

Pic related, these are "white nationalists"

Nice pencil moustaches.

[Fourth Internationalist]

They claim not to be supremacist but then go on to says Jews are child molesters and mixed race babies are ugly (Stormfront has a thread dedicated to "ugly" babies. Remeber, they're not supremacists!)

[Zostrianos]

I think they call themselves "White Nationalists" because it sounds marginally better than "White supremacists" or "Nazis", so they think it will make them more accepted in mainstream society.
Some fascists actually go as far as saying they're not racist at all. I was recently looking through the FB page of the Black Shirts\ British Union of Fascists, and the page owner and his supporters were arguing with an anti fascist, saying that they're not racists, and that they accept Jews and non-whites as long as they're nationalists.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I think they call themselves "White Nationalists" because it sounds marginally better than "White supremacists" or "Nazis", so they think it will make them more accepted in mainstream society.
Some fascists actually go as far as saying they're not racist at all. I was recently looking through the FB page of the Black Shirts\ British Union of Fascists, and the page owner and his supporters were arguing with an anti fascist, saying that they're not racists, and that they accept Jews and non-whites as long as they're nationalists.
... and then they go on about how Jews (all of them) are greedy banker communist child molesting white woman raping homosexual pedophiles! They're clearly not racist at all! :lol:

[Philosophos]

Why do you try to understand idiots? I might not be helping here but seriously have you tried to talk to one of these guys? They see enemies everywhere. Black, jews, gay, lesbian people. There is no fucking end.

From what I think they just want to live in a small village thinking they are better than everyone...

[Fourth Internationalist]

Most stupid phrase of all time: "Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white!"

Also, somehow every single black, Jew, and Latino in the United States is planning on mating with whites to wipe them out. These people honestly think they're victims of a world-wide conspiracy to hate white people and that anti-racist whites are self-hating, no matter how much you tell them you don't hate yourself. But they know my feelings? No. I'm quite happy with myself, yet I'm both white and anti-racist. Ha! Clearly I'm lying... *dun dun dun*

And, they seem to think that every other ideology is based on race, like theirs. No! Marxism and communism is based on class, not race. But they don't get that. Best of all, they think Obama or anyone to the left of fascism is radical leftism! Wow!

[Comrade Samuel]

But what is the point of it all? Why do they care about who others have sex with? A comrade of mine told me that they are saddened by these mixed marriages because no one will sleep with them and are upset that the white women are not attracted to them anymore and only want to date black men. Ridiculous.

Pic related, these are "white nationalists"

Bahhh why do those assholes get to keep all the cool historical memorabilia?

The appeal is pretty simple really; society's most isolated, angry and emotionally damaged individuals organize themselves and direct their blind anger at those who do not deserve it as opposed to attempting to address their own imperfections. This is pretty ironic considering how high they hold themselves for simply being born with a certan color of skin.

[Comrade Nasser]

I think they call themselves "White Nationalists" because it sounds marginally better than "White supremacists" or "Nazis", so they think it will make them more accepted in mainstream society.
Some fascists actually go as far as saying they're not racist at all. I was recently looking through the FB page of the Black Shirts\ British Union of Fascists, and the page owner and his supporters were arguing with an anti fascist, saying that they're not racists, and that they accept Jews and non-whites as long as they're nationalists.

Fascism and Nationalism are both racist ideologies!!!!!! I once had a "racialist" idiot argue that COMMUNISM of all things was racist! LMFAO. If anything communism is the epitome of anti-racism. This guy was trying to tell me you can be a white nationalist and a marxist at the same time! Wtf no. He also explained to me how liberals are really communists (He said cultural marxists LOL). Apparently anyone to the left of Mann Coulter is a "Communist Hippie". I only wish this was true. Our forces would increase greatly.

[DasFapital]

They just like the sharp lookin' uniforms.

[Comrade Nasser]

Bahhh why do those assholes get to keep all the cool historical memorabilia?

The appeal is pretty simple really; society's most isolated, angry and emotionally damaged individuals organize themselves and direct their blind anger at those who do not deserve it as opposed to attempting to address their own imperfections. This is pretty ironic considering how high they hold themselves for simply being born with a certan color of skin.

Do you think a part of it comes from having a horrid life? So they are basically society's misfits? (some say the same thing about is, but I don't care). Whenever I see these people marching or on YouTube, I can't help but just feel bad for these losers. I think they need hugs :wub:

A funny image just popped into my head. Hitler getting a big red hug from Lenin :laugh:

[Os Cangaceiros]

What is it that these people want? It's not 1942 anymore, and their fuhrer is dead. Why can't they get over it?

It ain't 1917 anymore, the USSR is gone, why can't we get over it? :rolleyes:

Look, as I've said before, the appeal of "white nationalism" in most cases is quite simple. It isn't because neo-nazis are sexually repressed or that they want to be like Hitler or any other BS reason. The appeal of fascist cliques (especially here in the states, where there isn't really any "intellectual fascist movement" to speak of) is the same as any non-political gang, it's fulfilling one's sense of belonging to a group that functions as one's extended family. Add to that a higher political purpose and it's a very intoxicating mix.

Neo-nazis who I've personally known, and there have only been a few, have come from pretty messed up backgrounds, either through broken homes, mental illness etc. It's important to remember that they're people and not charicatures. When they go out and cause violence, which they pretty much inevitably do as fascism is a cult of action, then yeah, it's time to spill blood, but there's a really annoying tendency on the left to draw widespread conclusions about groups of people which I think are often wrong and stupid. And that's without even going into my criticism of "anti-fascism" as a movement.

[Comrade Nasser]

They just like the sharp lookin' uniforms.

Their uniforms are ugly. Their swastika is ugly. Their white robes are ugly. Their shitty mustaches are ugly. They are ugly people through and through.


Also, I'll take a hammer and sickle or a red A over a shitty swastika anyways.
:hammersickle: :reda:

[Comrade Nasser]

Os, you are my friend, and you are a smart man, but what exactly makes you critical about Anti-Fascism?(As a movement)

[Os Cangaceiros]

The writings of Gilles Dauve/Jean Barrot had a pretty big influence on me during my formulative political development.

[Comrade Nasser]

The writings of Gilles Dauve/Jean Barrot had a pretty big influence on me during my formulative political development.

Ah. Well what is your position on the ARA and Antifa movements? (If you want to call them that) I've been told by many lefty friends in real life that they support what we stand for (Anti-Racism, Anti-Fascism) but refuse to join because of the people in the group (they believe they are misguided and just as dumb as white nationalists one friend of mines went so far as to say "There's really no difference between you and the Nazis, the other side just got to you first.")

[DasFapital]

Their uniforms are ugly. Their swastika is ugly. Their white robes are ugly. Their shitty mustaches are ugly. They are ugly people through and through.


Also, I'll take a hammer and sickle or a red A over a shitty swastika anyways.
:hammersickle: :reda:

Those iron eagles are kinda cool looking but yeah their facial hair is shit

[Comrade Nasser]

Those iron eagles are kinda cool looking but yeah their facial hair is shit

The iron eagle is kinda cool I guess. Lenin Goatee FTW!

[Flying Purple People Eater]

The iron eagle is shitty 'aryan race' symbolism. It blows.

[LOLseph Stalin]

The iron eagle is kinda cool I guess. Lenin Goatee FTW!

If I was a guy I would grow facial hair like Lenin's. I'm digging his style.

[Jimmie Higgins]

As far as the connection between US fascism and US white supremacism - or at least groups with these politics - white supremacy is the primary form that fascist movements take. In Jim Crow in the South, in the end it was the rural elietes who organized the coalitons against Civil Rights and red-scares and anti-immigrant or anti-black sentiment have been historically linked; today something like 83% of small business owners are older white males and so when they feel threatened from above by economic instability and from below by social instability, they often gravitate towards a kind of fascism that focuses on restoring social order through white supremacy.

[Comrade Nasser]

As far as the connection between US fascism and US white supremacism - or at least groups with these politics - white supremacy is the primary form that fascist movements take. In Jim Crow in the South, in the end it was the rural elietes who organized the coalitons against Civil Rights and red-scares and anti-immigrant or anti-black sentiment have been historically linked; today something like 83% of small business owners are older white males and so when they feel threatened from above by economic instability and from below by social instability, they often gravitate towards a kind of fascism that focuses on restoring social order through white supremacy.
Someone should probably close this thread, it may incite the scumfronters and other assorted fascists to troll. Also apparently a "White Nationalist" website other than scumfront has been reading our threads on anti-fascism and this thread in particular (not gonna post the link you can PM me for it). If no one decides to close this thread it won't matter anyways, let them come. I will virtually bash the fash.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Someone should probably close this thread, it may incite the scumfronters and other assorted fascists to troll. Also apparently a "White Nationalist" website other than scumfront has been reading our threads on anti-fascism and this thread in particular (not gonna post the link you can PM me for it). If no one decides to close this thread it won't matter anyways, let them come. I will virtually bash the fash.

Why cant you post the link? I'd love to see what they think.

[Orange Juche]

I think in some ways, deep down, they have the same frustrations we do, as far as seeing problems (i.e. economic worries, etc, things a result of a crap system making people frustrated). They just aren't intelligent enough to really articulate that and have a reasonable analysis of the world around them, to say "well yes, this system is clearly mad!", so it all comes down to the silly/absurd idea that "if we just had only white people..." Clearly misplaced blame on minorities and such.

So, I'd say, a genuine concern based on economic conditions, wildly blurred through ignorance with any reasonable response replaced by racism and nationalism.

[Comrade Nasser]

Why cant you post the link? I'd love to see what they think.

Remember, you brought this ignorance and blind drunken redneck rage upon yourself:

http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=152757

[Comrade Nasser]

Why cant you post the link? I'd love to see what they think.

They are calling us fat and bald now? Someone should instruct them on the use of the mirror.

Pic related, these are white nationalists. The guys in black are not though, they were anarchists who came to protest the Neo-Nazis presence here in SoCal.

[Comrade #138672]

It is the most reactionary ideology in existence, maintaining Capitalism, white privilege, etc.

[Rurkel]

It appears that there're two flavours of neo-nazi/far-right ideology: the openly national-capitalist "protect our heritage" one and the pseudo-revolutionary "anti-systemic" one, likely to appropriate leftish rhetoric. Most far-right organizations alternate between these two flavours, confirming both to be just that - flavours, which serve to camouflage the real lack of difference. These flavours are likely to appear to different people/segments of the population, though, and that's why both are useful.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Someone should probably close this thread, it may incite the scumfronters and other assorted fascists to troll. Also apparently a "White Nationalist" website other than scumfront has been reading our threads on anti-fascism and this thread in particular (not gonna post the link you can PM me for it). If no one decides to close this thread it won't matter anyways, let them come. I will virtually bash the fash.Why did you quote me? Were you just quoting the last post or was my post specifically going to cause trolling or something? Just curious.

[Comrade Nasser]

Why did you quote me? Were you just quoting the last post or was my post specifically going to cause trolling or something? Just curious.

Oh sorry man. Didn't mean to quote you.