Questions about Kim Jong-un

[Riveraxis]

I was watching Maoist Rebel News earlier this week (right, bad idea) and saw this video defending North Korea.

MRN went as far as to say that North Korea is a democratic state, and that Kim Jong-un in not a dictator. He did not "inherit" the throne from his dad, he was elected. And on top of that, his people actually voted him out recently for some reason.

I can't post links yet but the video is called 'North Korean Truth (Defend DPRK week 2)' on MRN youtube channel.

So I searched online and couldn't find anything about Kim being usurped. I found that very hard to believe. Does anyone know if thats true, at all, or if this guy is just blatantly lying..?

And other than that- is there any trace of democracy in North Korea whatsoever? I'm not very familiar with the way they run things over there.

[Yuppie Grinder]

MRN is one of the stupidest people on the internet, don't take him seriously.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I have heard a lot about this Maoist Rebel News guy. Is he actually as bad as people say he is? I heard he really hates Trotskyists too.

[Riveraxis]

My main problem with him so far is that he's reinforcing the idea that Korea is actually a socialism.
Most leftists do their best to kill that notion. NK is clearly not a socialism. I haven't seen a lot of his videos but he seems like type y'all would call a "fetishist" or something like that. Or maybe he's a bourgeois agent who's infiltrated youtube to shovel more shit on top of the revolution of socialism.
Either way, I can assume that none of that was true?

[Hiero]

He was elected. He was elected to be the first secretary of the Workers Party of Korea by its congress and was elected to many of the other positions he holds. They have an official electoral process. So MRN is correct. But the Kim family hold such influence that a male member was going to always be elected.

I find it pretty hard to find sources for the election process in the DPRK because there is so much bias. The Wikipedia articles are inadequate, they contain lots of bias and unfounded assumptions and little references. Take this line for example:

North Korea is a single-party state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state) with the Workers' Party of Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Party_of_Korea) in power. Although two other parties exist, they are completely subservient to the WPK, which is granted a monopoly of power under the constitution.

If two other parties exist, then it isn't a single-party state. It is fine to say "the other parties are completely subservient to the WPK as they are granted a monopoly of power under the constitution", if you actually quote the constitution. Generally regarding the DPRK sloppily reference and a lack of integrity is permissible because the DPRK is considered so weird and aggressive. To do actually unbiased work on DPRK is associated with the inhuman.

[Riveraxis]

So, do you know if Kim is still in power then? I can believe they at least have the illusion of democracy. Most countries claim to, even if their citizens are actually the least active piece of the process.
But he claimed the Kim was officially out of office, which I found very hard to believe.

[LOLseph Stalin]

So, do you know if Kim is still in power then? I can believe they at least have the illusion of democracy. Most countries claim to, even if their citizens are actually the least active piece of the process.
But he claimed the Kim was officially out of office, which I found very hard to believe.

I wouldn't say they're any less democratic than your average western democracy, which is essentially voting for a new bourgeois master every four years.

[Riveraxis]

Maybe not. But that isn't a high standard to live up to.
Being "as democratic" as the average western state means that you're not very democratic at all.

[Hiero]

So, do you know if Kim is still in power then? I can believe they at least have the illusion of democracy. Most countries claim to, even if their citizens are actually the least active piece of the process.
But he claimed the Kim was officially out of office, which I found very hard to believe.

I don't know what you mean. Kim is a Korean family name. Kim Il Sung, Kim Jung Il or Kim Jong-Un?

Even though Kim Il Sung is dead, he still holds a title that once had power, which is symbolic. (unless you're a racist and allege that Koreans believe he rules from the dead).

Also I don't think any serious 21st century communist can use such a loaded term word like democracy anymore. It holds no relevance anymore, and probably didn't in the 20th century after the USSR came into being. It's only value is in it being a propoganda word.

[Rurkel]

Glorious Comrade Kim Jong-Un rules over Democratic People's Republic of Korea wisely and gently as a father. He's a very humble leader - he says that the people are his teachers, and the teacher of the teachers is the Glorious Comrade Kim Jong-Un.

Bourgeois media like the CIA-edited Wikipedia slanders the Glorious Comrade Kim Jong-Un. In reality, the people of North Korea completely and fully support Worker's Party of Korea and the Glorious Comrade Kim Jong-Un. Unfortunately, RevLeft is full of bourgeios propaganda against the Glorious Comrade Kim Jong-Un.

[Brutus]

Glorious Comrade Kim Jong-Un rules over Democratic People's Republic of Korea wisely and gently as a father. He's a very humble leader - he says that the people are his teachers, and the teacher of the teachers is the Glorious Comrade Kim Jong-Un.

Bourgeois media like the CIA-edited Wikipedia slanders the Glorious Comrade Kim Jong-Un. In reality, the people of North Korea completely and fully support Worker's Party of Korea and the Glorious Comrade Kim Jong-Un. Unfortunately, RevLeft is full of bourgeios propaganda against the Glorious Comrade Kim Jong-Un.


Is this sarcasm?

[Delenda Carthago]

North Korea is a single-party state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state) with the Workers' Party of Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Party_of_Korea) in power. Although two other parties exist, they are completely subservient to the WPK, which is granted a monopoly of power under the constitution.


What I have find before is that there are more parties and that there are elections. I dont know what its their importance though.


http://nimg.sulekha.com/others/original700/north-korea-election-2011-7-24-3-20-0.jpg


Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland (687 seats):

- Workers' Party of Korea (606)
- Korean Social Democratic Party (50)
- Cheondoist Chongu Party (22)
- General Association of Korean Residents in Japan (6)
- independents (3)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Also I don't think any serious 21st century communist can use such a loaded term word like democracy anymore. It holds no relevance anymore, and probably didn't in the 20th century after the USSR came into being. It's only value is in it being a propoganda word.

Why do people who are supposedly communists say this?

There can be different types, or levels, or actions, of democracy.

That there is a bourgeois democracy that has been built into capitalism, as progress from feudal monarchy, does not mean that we should abandon Socialist Democracy as a basic principle. If we do that, then we have no logical case for opposing any tinpot dictator who comes along and re-distributes some wealth.

Socialism really is nothing without democracy; democracy being the will of the majority. The majority in the world is labour, and only when the majority is able to truly express and initiate its will into existence can we have Socialism, not when some asshole decides to plant a red flag in the ground and take state power on behalf of whichever party he/she says is communist. :rolleyes::thumbup1:

[Os Cangaceiros]

Unfortunately many people (mostly people like MRN) erroneously associate some kind of democratic process with a nation being a "democracy" (note: "democracy" in the sense of being a "bourgeoisie democracy") An intra-party decision by voting is not the same thing as when hundreds of millions go to the polls to choose a candidate. Some kind of semblance of a democratic process exists and has existed in pretty much every state in the modern era...that's because the democratic republic is pretty much seen as being the pinnacle of human governance thus far. Even in brutal repressive states this is the case.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Unfortunately many people (mostly people like MRN) erroneously associate some kind of democratic process with a nation being a "democracy" (note: "democracy" in the sense of being a "bourgeoisie democracy") An intra-party decision by voting is not the same thing as when hundreds of millions go to the polls to choose a candidate. Some kind of semblance of a democratic process exists and has existed in pretty much every state in the modern era...that's because the democratic republic is pretty much seen as being the pinnacle of human governance thus far. Even in brutal repressive states this is the case.

Yes, it seems as though they're employing 'two legs good, four legs bad' logic. Capitalism is bad. Bourgeois states have democracy. Ergo, democracy MUST be bad, right?

Which is really just a total own goal, since the opponents of democracy are either dictatorship (never good), or consensus (clearly unworkable in any sort of sizeable group, let alone a country.

[Tim Cornelis]

North Korea is a single-party state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state) with the Workers' Party of Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Party_of_Korea) in power. Although two other parties exist, they are completely subservient to the WPK, which is granted a monopoly of power under the constitution.

If two other parties exist, then it isn't a single-party state.

From the wikipedia article you linked to:

A single-party state, one-party state, one-party system or single-party system is a type of state in which a single political party forms the government, usually based on the existing constitution. All other parties are either outlawed or allowed to take only a limited and controlled participation in the election.

This applies to North Korea.

[The Jay]

I've read several articles on the DPRK and translations of their own articles. It is basically an monarchy in which the Kims represent a superior bloodline and are born to rule because they are the best. I have no idea what MRN2 sees in it.

[MarxSchmarx]

Understand that since Kim Il Sung's death and probably before, North Korea has never really been ruled by the Kim family so much as the old guard of the anti-Japanese resistance and Korean war military elite. The Kims are a very useful public rallying point and, in the case of Kim Jong Il, quite useful as a point-person for foreign affairs, but they owe their power and their control to the military apparatus. It is strikingly reminiscent of "Big Brother" in 1984 - the Kims are just the public face of a doggedly nationalist and militarist ruling class, quite frankly what the capitalists would call a "brand". If the Kims didn't exist, they would have to be invented.

[Delenda Carthago]

This applies to North Korea.
Limited how?

[p0is0n]

Understand that since Kim Il Sung's death and probably before, North Korea has never really been ruled by the Kim family so much as the old guard of the anti-Japanese resistance and Korean war military elite. The Kims are a very useful public rallying point and, in the case of Kim Jong Il, quite useful as a point-person for foreign affairs, but they owe their power and their control to the military apparatus. It is strikingly reminiscent of "Big Brother" in 1984 - the Kims are just the public face of a doggedly nationalist and militarist ruling class, quite frankly what the capitalists would call a "brand". If the Kims didn't exist, they would have to be invented.
Interesting... Do you have anything on the topic that one could read?

[MarxSchmarx]

Originally Posted by MarxSchmarx
Understand that since Kim Il Sung's death and probably before, North Korea has never really been ruled by the Kim family so much as the old guard of the anti-Japanese resistance and Korean war military elite. The Kims are a very useful public rallying point and, in the case of Kim Jong Il, quite useful as a point-person for foreign affairs, but they owe their power and their control to the military apparatus. It is strikingly reminiscent of "Big Brother" in 1984 - the Kims are just the public face of a doggedly nationalist and militarist ruling class, quite frankly what the capitalists would call a "brand". If the Kims didn't exist, they would have to be invented.Interesting... Do you have anything on the topic that one could read?

The book that really opened my eyes about this was Bruce Cumming's "Korean War: A history". It explains how the military elite in North Korea views its current predicament as an unbroken struggle against Japanese imperialism beginning in the 1920s, and how the brutality of the Japanese occupation informs policy in North Korea today. Indeed, this book convinced me more than anything how, to the North Korean ruling class, the collaborationists under Japanese rule basically continued in their posts in South Korea, the Japanese being replaced on paper by the Americans, down to the present day. So much of what North Korea does makes sense when viewed in this light, I think, that this is probably hte most compelling analysis I have ever come across from an outsider.

[Riveraxis]

Good stuff. Thanks for all the information. I'm going to check out that book.

[Let's Get Free]

Yea, despite our best efforts, every once in a while it happens- some idiot professing to be a Marxist tries to make some passionate defense for North Korea. It doesn't happen much, but that fact that it happens at all is troubling. The various tendencies of Communism do have their differences, but one thing we should all hold in common is that the Kim dynasty is. not. Communist.

[Riveraxis]

Agreed.

So is Kimg Jong-un still in power? MRN specifically said that he was voted out. Even if most of what he says is exaggerated or skewed, there at least some basis for what he's saying.

But I still can't find any info on him being usurped. I found it pretty unlikely obviously but I can't say it's lie because I can't find any info one way or the other. >.>