Scottish Independence?

[ВАЛТЕР]

What are your positions on it? Are there any actual leftist movements backing it, or is it a case of bourgeois nationalism? I'm not too informed on the subject so I would appreciate if someone gave me some idea as to exactly what the deal is with it?

[Q]

There are several left groups supporting Scottish independence. All are basing themselves on some variant of being able to build a socialist society or, at least, have a pro-working class government in Scotland, if only the link with London was cut. Added to this are, at best, calls to have a "voluntary confederation" with England, Wales and Ireland as a step towards a "socialist Europe". How this "step" between declaring independence and instating a socialist Scottish republic and a socialist Europe is made, is left unexplained.

In reality any such policy would result in disaster.

What would happen if a socialist republic was declared in Scotland? Of course, we have no crystal ball, but certain things are bound to happen:

- The surrounding states, all capitalist states after all, would react aggressively. Boycots are to be expected. A closed border to England and Ireland. Economic crippling as Scotland is left to fend on its own.
- Nationalise companies? Forget it. If the multinationals haven't left already, there would be huge pressure (more sanctions?) not to nationalise them.
- Annul the state debt? Forget it. As we've seen with Greece the markets would respond immediately. Interest rates would skyrocket, effectively making it impossible for Scotland to ever borrow again.
- Build an alternative economy? Doubt it. International trade would be made increasingly difficult due to unfavorable trade agreements. Perhaps even a direct trade embargo and "no fly" zones enforced by aircraft carriers are to be expected.
- Don't dream about getting access to those oil fields for the coast of Scotland. Those are of strategic interest to the imperialists and they will ensure direct access to it.
- Say we don't get a military invasion to "restore order" pretty much immediately and that this situation would last for a while. How would life look like in our socialist republic? On a relatively short term we would see energy shortages, traffic ceases. How long would power plants run with such shortages?
- The result is that our hypothetical Scottish socialist government would have to declare martial law and decrease living standards drastically. There is no other option.
- And what if we get workers resistance? Then we just send in the police forces or troops (maybe re-established ones after the revolution) to smash any strikes, demonstrations, etc. All in the 'defense of the revolution' of course.
- This would most likely cause an exodus of workers, especially higher educated ones. Why would they accept such treatment after all? The logical response from our socialist government? Setting up an iron curtain to prevent further emigration.

This is also, on a different scale, what happened to the early Soviet Union and how a revolution would turn into its opposite. The world is too integrated to go at it alone. This is exactly why we need international solutions. A pan-European revolution, at the very least, is what is needed.

[Red Enemy]

Scottish nationalism is just as reactionary and bourgeois as any other nationalism. It won't be "independence" for the proletariat of Scotland. So, fuck no.

[LeninBalls]

Scottish nationalism is just as reactionary and bourgeois as any other nationalism.

Yeah yeah yeah, we get it. Nationalism isnt a radical left wing pro worker movement. Never has been, never will be. I dont think anyone here believes it is.

Doesnt change the fact though that the UK is a horrible entity and I would be more than happy to see the UK to fall apart and disintegrate (at long fucking last). It might not change much in the grand scheme of things but I think the world would be a better place seeing an independent Scotland (and consequently a more than likely united Ireland - I doubt loyalists would be fucked staying in a "United Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland) and the end of "Britain"

But I guess its easy for you to forget about the thousands of Irish and Scottish workers that gave up everything in hopes of defying English imperialism when youre sitting behind your computer screen in Canada :grin:

[Narcissus]

It is trickery and deceit. It is not real independence. Keeping the Stirling, the Queen, the EU, and NATO is hardly independence. It will be merely a tool to convince the Scottish people that they are free.

Scotland needs devo max. It is no closer than anywhere else at having a shot at socialism.

[Q]

It is trickery and deceit. It is not real independence. Keeping the Stirling, the Queen, the EU, and NATO is hardly independence. It will be merely a tool to convince the Scottish people that they are free.

Scotland needs devo max. It is no closer than anywhere else at having a shot at socialism.

To be honest: While this is the proposal of the SNP, this isn't (as far as I'm aware) what the left proposes. Although the left ought to engage with it, as the SNP proposal is of course what shapes the independence debate.

[Narcissus]

To be honest: While this is the proposal of the SNP, this isn't (as far as I'm aware) what the left proposes. Although the left ought to engage with it, as the SNP proposal is of course what shapes the independence debate.

True, but the SNP wiped the floor last time around. It has all the power, and will only gain more with this 'independence'. The left is in just as much a minority in Scotland as it is in Britain as a whole. The thought of Salmond and Sturgeon being properly in charge makes me a little queasy as well.

[ozrics]

can yorkshire join

[SergeNubret]

sorry but i do not follow
Scottland becoming independant from what? is that not a own country?

[ВАЛТЕР]

sorry but i do not follow
Scottland becoming independant from what? is that not a own country?

Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom. Some Scottish groups are seeking independence from the UK. I am just interested in what the position of our users are on the subject. Most wars of independence are strictly driven by nationalism and therefore very unproductive for the proletariat. I somehow doubt they could form a Socialist republic for the reasons comrade Q stated. I wouldn't support it on the grounds of it only creating more nationalism between the English proletariat and Scottish proletariat. Although if proven otherwise I would gladly admit, since I don't know much on the situation there. :P

[Aurora]

It seems to me that to oppose the Scottish people being allowed to become independent can only be negative, so the least worst option is to support their right to self-determination, whether they stay or leave is their choice.

That being the case the primary question on Scottish independence is: does it benefit the working class, will it bring the socialist revolution closer?

Economically an independent capitalist Scotland will change very little if anything at all, Scotland will still be completely interdependent with the rest of the UK, Europe and ultimately the world economy, the SNP assures us of this and they can do nothing else, capitalism outgrew its national borders long ago and any attempt to retreat back inside them and develop a national economy with protectionist tariffs would be catastrophic.

Politically the Conservatives will disappear and the SNP will rule although the SNP is likely to follow the policies of the UK and EU, so the capitalists rule no change there, i don't think the electoral system will change but as Scottish local elections use the STV they may introduce it in the general elections which i think could be of benefit to socialists as the STV benefits smaller parties and independents as seen in Ireland.
I think perhaps the main political consideration is the consciousness of the masses, if Scottish people blame the London government for the austerity measures and other attacks on them, as the SNP are doing, then it may be advantageous to transfer this blame to a national government, turn the guns on your own capitalists as it were. In this case the national consciousness would stand in the way of a class consciousness and removing this obstacle would be a step forward.
This is what i'm leaning towards at the moment because the other options that i can think of seem less likely.

[Yugo45]

I'm not exactly for Scottish independence, like I am for Palestinian or Kurdish independence. Because, of course, the condictions of the proletariat and the Scottish people in general will stay, more or less, the same.

However, I'm not against it either. If Scotland breaks away from UK I see nothing bad in it, only a few good things (like UK loosing power).

Of course, that's how I see it and I really don't know a lot about the issue, so correct me if I'm wrong.

[Pleb]

Like someone has pointed out, We keep sterling which (correct me if I'm wrong) means we could never be economically independant, seek membership of EU which also contradicts independance. Seeking membership of NATO Guarantees that trident stays and even if the Fasc.. sorry nationalists decided they wanted rid of trident there is nowhere in the England or Wales for a new base. Also the fact they want to keep the monarchy. How the fuck is that Independance. A complete ruse, a distraction from working class politics.

Any socialists I speak to seem to think that after Independance we can then pursue a Socialist republic, rubbish. We should be fighting for Socialism not just for Scotland but for all the people of this island (and of course the world) not splitting up our trade union movement and deserting our comrades down south just because they happen to live in Manchester or Birmingham.

There is no difference between the working class of Scotland and the rest of the UK.

[Per Levy]

allright a realistic view on an "independent" scottish state. things will be more of the same then change, besides that the scottish bourgeoisie will rule(and even that is doubtful) it wont change a thing, besides that lots or propaganda and scottish nationalism will probaly used to minimize the fact that for the working people nothing has changed and they still have either no jobs or pretty shitty jobs.

besides pride i actually doubt that the uk would be to sorry about this, scottland isnt that rich and is actually a pretty poor region of the uk, so why not dumb it. and it wont weaken the uk, dont fool yourself, a "free" scottland will still be in the influence of the uk more then anything.

[SergeNubret]

Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom. Some Scottish groups are seeking independence from the UK. I am just interested in what the position of our users are on the subject. Most wars of independence are strictly driven by nationalism and therefore very unproductive for the proletariat. I somehow doubt they could form a Socialist republic for the reasons comrade Q stated. I wouldn't support it on the grounds of it only creating more nationalism between the English proletariat and Scottish proletariat. Although if proven otherwise I would gladly admit, since I don't know much on the situation there. :P


I can see as for communists nationalism rising up is a problem, it does nothing good for the ploreteriat.
but what benefits do Scottland get from being a part of United Kingdom?
What are the con's of it?

[Per Levy]

But I guess its easy for you to forget about the thousands of Irish and Scottish workers that gave up everything in hopes of defying English imperialism when youre sitting behind your computer screen in Canada :grin:

i guess its easy to forget about the millions of irish and scottish workers who supportet english imperialism one way or another when you sit before computer screen in ireland. so i dont get this statement of yours, have you defyed english imperialism? or are you proud on something you had no influence on? are you not sitting before a computer screen as well?

[Q]

I can see as for communists nationalism rising up is a problem, it does nothing good for the ploreteriat.

Interesting about-turn (http://www.revleft.com/vb/world-under-one-t179192/index.html).

[LeonJWilliams]

I think the left must support independence.

The left must support peoples right to be independent and democracy.

I feel the reality of the UK is that only England has democracy and the other nations are ultimately subservient.

This is because of the population difference between the countries, for example Scotland or Wales can vote for Socialism but will never get it because England votes for the Conservatives.
The alternative would be to change how the UK works and allow each member state an equal say in how things are run. Though the English would argue that this is undemocratic because of the same population argument.

[Narcissus]

I think the left must support independence.

The left must support peoples right to be independent and democracy.

I feel the reality of the UK is that only England has democracy and the other nations are ultimately subservient.

This is because of the population difference between the countries, for example Scotland or Wales can vote for Socialism but will never get it because England votes for the Conservatives.
The alternative would be to change how the UK works and allow each member state an equal say in how things are run. Though the English would argue that this is undemocratic because of the same population argument.

Why not devolution max until someone is ready to propose REAL independence?

[Q]

I think the left must support independence.

Let me put the punchline of my previous posts in stronger words: Any breakup of the working class is a crime against it.

We need to fight for greater (European) unity, more democracy (home rule!), more republicanism (less monarchy). This all strengthens our class as a global entity. Breakups are not in our collective interests as it weakens our cause and would at best in the Scottish case lead to it become a heavily indebted and economically crippled minor client state of the international state order, 'independent' on paper only.

[Geiseric]

Well if the working class would objctively benefit, I'm sure they'd support this. If they don't then it'll fizzle out. Is scottish independence is different from black or mexican independence? I support the later, however I'm not sure if scots are historically oppressed like catholics in england.

[Geiseric]

Well if the working class would objctively benefit, I'm sure they'd support this. If they don't then it'll fizzle out. Is scottish independence is different from black or mexican independence? I support the later, however I'm not sure if scots are historically oppressed like catholics in england.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Communists should neither support or oppose it in my opinion. It is nothing more than a line on a map, if the people want to make a million scribbles on it, then so be it! I'd rather the people do it through the ballot than capitalist through the bullet!

But in all seriousness though, I agree with the RCP Canada line on the national question. There is a serious difference between oppressed nations and oppressor nations. The Irish just across the shore fought against the British and the Loyalist deaths squads in their attempt to ethnically cleanse North Ireland. I'm not bullshitting, one of the paramilitaries that collaborated with the police made a detailed document on how they planned to ethnically cleanse the Irish from North Ireland just in case the IRA lost and their was another partition, this document isn't ancient history, it was released in 1994. Since the Irish Independence movement was fighting against national oppression, and every Irish republican group claimed to be some sort of Communist or socialist, then I think it is fair to say that the Irish Republican movement is progressive and ought to be supported.

However in Scotland's case I do not see the British massacring them En Masse or plotting genocide. Nor can I say that Scotland is an oppressed nation in the imperialist world system, and since it doesn't have this status it seems to me that it is not a "nation" in a properly Marxist sense since that would denote a special relationship to the mode of production, but only exists as a nation in a cultural sense. Thus in this way I can see why Scottish Nationalism is reactionary because in the absence of legitimate reasons to leave from the UK it appears that it is driven by a feeling of "difference" to the British proletariat. However as I said before, it is the decision of the Scottish people and quite frankly it does not matter one way or another.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Well if the working class would objctively benefit, I'm sure they'd support this. If they don't then it'll fizzle out. Is scottish independence is different from black or mexican independence? I support the later, however I'm not sure if scots are historically oppressed like catholics in england.

Catholics are arguably still discriminated against in Britan. It is an unfortunate of the reign of Queen Elizabeth and the domination of Ireland. Even today Tony Blair did not publically "come out" as a catholic until he left office. Which is a pretty fucked up level of discrimination in a "modern" country like England. Most of the British people I interact with have an unhealthy contempt for Catholics and unfortunately this is driven by actions of the papacy which the British media love to play up to appease their audience. But in terms of oppression I believe Catholics in mainland Britain are good while Catholics in NI are suffering just as ever.

And I don't think that scots can be compared to blacks or mexicans, whose Independence ought to be supported whole heartily.

[Geiseric]

Catholics are arguably still discriminated against in Britan. It is an unfortunate of the reign of Queen Elizabeth and the domination of Ireland. Even today Tony Blair did not publically "come out" as a catholic until he left office. Which is a pretty fucked up level of discrimination in a "modern" country like England. Most of the British people I interact with have an unhealthy contempt for Catholics and unfortunately this is driven by actions of the papacy which the British media love to play up to appease their audience. But in terms of oppression I believe Catholics in mainland Britain are good while Catholics in NI are suffering just as ever.

And I don't think that scots can be compared to blacks or mexicans, whose Independence ought to be supported whole heartily.

Exactly, I'm not disagreeing at all. You hit the nail on the head IMO.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Exactly, I'm not disagreeing at all. You hit the nail on the head IMO.

No problem, I guess I must have mis read you.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I support the fracturing of the United Kingdom, even if it doesn't lead to socialism right now.

[Iosif]

“A nation is a historically-evolved, stable community of language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a community of culture” (JV Stalin). At the time of the 1707 union of England and Scotland, Scotland was not a nation since it lacked more than one of the essential characteristics of nationhood.

The Scottish nationalist movement is a retrogressive and reactionary enterprise, whose success can only bring in its wake a catastrophic split in the unity of the historically-constituted British proletariat.