The world under one flag

[SergeNubret]

I just thought over the hole statlessness aspect of communism.
I just have to say, I don't think it will ever work.
How will all countries in the world become one country?

I believe someone once said something like: "Workers don't have a homecountry"
That is true and I agree with it in one way. All workers could live under one country, but I don't see this happening in the future.

Ex I myself am Croatian and have lived through the hell of Yugoslavia and seen how Serbians have treated Croatian people in the government and also on the street while we were all living "happy" under the same country.

I believe Croats and Serbians have been hostile to eachother for 100s of years and even under the same flag they will never be friends.
Maybe having different countries is all for the best?
I just used Croatia and Serbia as an example because that is 2 very small countries in Europe and we can't live in peace, so I can't see how all the other countries in the worlds can live under the same country.

Do you have any input? Do you see this work in the future? Why? etc :)

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Well, what use has a state if there are no classes?

The simple act of using the same flag doesn't do much, the disappearing of countries is something that will take a long time, much like states.

[Narcissus]

The world will not all be one country. It will be united in that there will be no countries.

[SergeNubret]

Well, what use has a state if there are no classes?

The simple act of using the same flag doesn't do much, the disappearing of countries is something that will take a long time, much like states.

It does not matter if it has any "uses"
The people of one country will always want their people to live in the same country, with their own laws and norms.
I don't see that the majority of EVERY country in the worlds going on board with this.

[hatzel]

I just thought over the hole statlessness aspect of communism.
I just have to say, I don't think it will ever work.
How will all countries in the world become one country?

These three sentences don't make any sense together. Saying statelessness wouldn't work because you don't understand how we could all live in one and the same state is like saying the abolition of cars is impossible because we can't all fit in one car. Bicycles, man, bicycles!

[SergeNubret]

I don't see how the people in ex Croatia would like to live under the same country as ex serbia when there has been wars and hatred for many many years.
If two small countries like this have wars and can't live together, how will bigger countries manage this?
The point is, I don't see how people will leave their own culture in order to create a new one shared with many others.

[Q]

Unity can only occur on a voluntary and democratic basis. this implies minority rights / self-determination in cases where this is a live issue and the principle of "home rule" in a universal sense.

To make a concrete example: The Arab East is currently still in the same situation as Italy or Germany were before their national unification. However, having a united republic of the Arab East (or even the entire Arab world) would create some issues for non-Arab nations, like the Kurds, the Hebrews and the South-Sudanese. Within such a united republic, these nations would (and should) be granted full rights of self-determination, cultural rights, etc. Only then can real unity occur.

I can imagine that the Balkan is a live issue, as war only happened there recently and distrust still exists among large layers of veterans. This takes time to heal, but the starting point remains the same: Self-determination, voluntary union and democracy.

The reason why communists emphasise unity has everything to do that we need, at the very least, continental unity (in Europe) before we can positively start to pose alternatives on capitalism. A united European Democratic Republic should be a demand of any communist.

[SergeNubret]

Do you think the majority of people in all countries in the world will ever go for this?
Self-determination, voluntary union and democracy? What if the majority always will want their own country and own laws with their own ethnic people?

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

It does not matter if it has any "uses"
The people of one country will always want their people to live in the same country, with their own laws and norms.

Strange assumption. How people think differs from time, economic system or in short material conditions. Even laws and norms differ from time to time and are certainly not tied to any country.

You also confuse the state with government. A state is a tool of class-oppression, so it is useless when it has no class to oppress. Government is something completely different.


I don't see that the majority of EVERY country in the worlds going on board with this.

In the current conditions you would be right. However, you must remember that no real leftist thinks that we can achieve a world without nations in our current society. We think the disappearing of nations can only happen if capitalism is destroyed.

[Q]

Do you think the majority of people in all countries in the world will ever go for this?
Self-determination, voluntary union and democracy? What if the majority always will want their own country and own laws with their own ethnic people?

"Ethnicities", a more acceptable synonym these days for "race", are social constructs. They have developed under conditions of capitalism, which brings all sorts of contradictions, oppression, etc. Marxists don't talk about "races" or "ethnicities", but about nations and nations come and go. We see this time and again if we look at history. The key factor here is national awareness: Is there a collective sense of culture, language, common history and is this collective awareness somehow counterposed to another nation (also because of a common history, mostly that of repression of one against the other)? Then yes, such national questions should be considered.

And while "always" is a very long time, I agree that a united republic may perhaps be a bridge too far for many national minorities, at least when starting out. Trust is after all a factor here. In such cases, a federation or even confederation may be considered.

The exact form is however secondary. Communists strive for unity of our class and this unity needs to be international if we are to overcome the rule of capital.

[Philosophos]

Look man I know what you mean. Greek people are afraid of all their neighboors because we have had so many wars between us that it seems impossible to get along with them. The point is that YOU first of all must understand that what has happened is now in the past. You can't go for the rest of your life saying: "Serbians killed all my people I have to take revenge". If everybody thinks of that way then we are screwed. You should let that go and try to have better relations with your neighbor countries (and the rest of the countries ofc).

Just keep in mind that the big guys will put you through the hell of war just because they don't have enough oil or because they don't have enough strawberries for their favourite jam. You don't dislike the worker from Serbia. You don't have to take something from a teacher in Slovenia. There is no reason to conquer any part of Bosnia.

There is absolutely no fucking reason to start a war with someone that just wants to live his life as better as he can just like you do. If all people were thinking like this they wouldn't mind living under "one flag" as you say. I don't have a problem living with different natinalities as long as they don't throw nationalist bullshit in my face.

[Thirsty Crow]

Do you think the majority of people in all countries in the world will ever go for this?
Self-determination, voluntary union and democracy? What if the majority always will want their own country and own laws with their own ethnic people?
Then make sure the majority doesn't want that. As simple as this.

[Q]

Then make sure the majority doesn't want that. As simple as this.

Which, incidentally, implies a mass party-movement to achieve that.

(Or a totalitarian dictatorship under the rule of a minority 'communist' party).

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Ex I myself am Croatian and have lived through the hell of Yugoslavia and seen how Serbians have treated Croatian people in the government and also on the street while we were all living "happy" under the same country.

I happen to be a Croatian that has lived through the "hell" of Yugoslavia as well, and if Yugoslavia was a hell, I'd prefer to be damned than to live in this ethnically and intellectually cleansed heaven. Why was Yugoslavia a "hell"? Because those that propagated fascist ideas, ideas that had killed hundreds of thousands in the Second World War, and that would kill tens of thousands in the civil war, were punished?

How did Serbians (and Croat Serbs, most likely) treat Croatians in the street? As I recall it, Serbians would say "hello", unless they were in a hurry. Or are you perhaps referring to the suppression of the "Croatian Spring", when the Croatian government (whose members, for some reason, tended to be Croats) and the militsiya (again mostly formed out of Croats, belying the nationalist stereotypes) suppressed those that tried to rehabilitate the Ustashe (the Croat clero-Nazi movement whose genocide of Serbs had managed to sicken even Nazi Germany, earning them a place of honour in fascist circles along with the Roumanian Iron Guard), that tried to annex the S.R. Bosnia and Hercegovina to Croatia?

And how did the Serbian government treat the Croatian government? As I recall it, both were subordinated to the federal executive, historically headed by two Serbs (one of which was the acting chairman during the dissolution) and four Croats.

Serb domination of the government, indeed!


I believe Croats and Serbians have been hostile to eachother for 100s of years and even under the same flag they will never be friends.

Really. Someone should have informed the Serb-Croat coalition, that formed the first democratically elected governments in Croatia, or perhaps the mostly Croat Yugoslav Committee. Or the Partisan movement, equally open to all nations. Or, you know, the Serbs and Croats that lived in Yugoslavia without problems.

The bourgeoisie stokes national enmity in order to preserve their empires of plunder, but any truly revolutionary movement will feature members of the "enemy" nations fighting side to side against the oppressors from both nations. The very act of revolutionary struggle builds national solidarity, which is why "enemy" nations could coexist without a problem in states formed by revolutions.

[SergeNubret]

Then make sure the majority doesn't want that. As simple as this.


Yes, and that is quite easy?, just throwing a one line'r on a forum doesn't change the opinion of the majority of every single country.
----------

Even if classes would be abolished, don't you think people in that country STILL would want to live in the same country? People always feel attached to their homeland and will always go a far way to keep it, even if they lived in a socialist country or a classless country, national pride will always exist.

[SergeNubret]

I happen to be a Croatian that has lived through the "hell" of Yugoslavia as well, and if Yugoslavia was a hell, I'd prefer to be damned than to live in this ethnically and intellectually cleansed heaven. Why was Yugoslavia a "hell"? Because those that propagated fascist ideas, ideas that had killed hundreds of thousands in the Second World War, and that would kill tens of thousands in the civil war, were punished?

How did Serbians (and Croat Serbs, most likely) treat Croatians in the street? As I recall it, Serbians would say "hello", unless they were in a hurry. Or are you perhaps referring to the suppression of the "Croatian Spring", when the Croatian government (whose members, for some reason, tended to be Croats) and the militsiya (again mostly formed out of Croats, belying the nationalist stereotypes) suppressed those that tried to rehabilitate the Ustashe (the Croat clero-Nazi movement whose genocide of Serbs had managed to sicken even Nazi Germany, earning them a place of honour in fascist circles along with the Roumanian Iron Guard), that tried to annex the S.R. Bosnia and Hercegovina to Croatia?

And how did the Serbian government treat the Croatian government? As I recall it, both were subordinated to the federal executive, historically headed by two Serbs (one of which was the acting chairman during the dissolution) and four Croats.

Serb domination of the government, indeed!



Really. Someone should have informed the Serb-Croat coalition, that formed the first democratically elected governments in Croatia, or perhaps the mostly Croat Yugoslav Committee. Or the Partisan movement, equally open to all nations. Or, you know, the Serbs and Croats that lived in Yugoslavia without problems.

The bourgeoisie stokes national enmity in order to preserve their empires of plunder, but any truly revolutionary movement will feature members of the "enemy" nations fighting side to side against the oppressors from both nations. The very act of revolutionary struggle builds national solidarity, which is why "enemy" nations could coexist without a problem in states formed by revolutions.


The hell of Yugoslavia was being Croatian and not being able to stand up for their national pride. I was once jailed with a few friends for sining ljipo nasa domovino in the street.
I have a tatto on my right shoulder, you probably know how it looks, one of the first croat flag symbol, the "chessboard". Which has got me into questioning in a police station over 5 times whenever I wear t shirt with no clothing over the shoulder. 90% wear no t shirt because it warm in the summer, I felt the need to hide up my arm because I was proud?
I did not tell that one time I visit Belgrade for 2 weeks with my family(1980-1981) to go to museums and see monuments and at night going to the hotel from a food store 3 serbian (20 years old) beat me up so I go hospital for 2 weeks in a coma, when I woke up i needed to pay what is probably 2-3,000 dollar today,
so of course I call police to find a way so that i can not pay, because I got beat up by 3 serbijan people on street, I did not do anything, literally! I talked what Serbian people hear as "croatian accent"
my wife cried 2 weeks standing next to me with 2 children while i was coma in hospital and we could not pay and do you know what police did?
they did not do anything, do you think it was coincident that serbian police don't want to do anything with what some serbian thugs did to me on street?
I know 3 serbian in their 20 years old of age beat me til I almost died and I could recognize them and one had tattoo on his face, I remember him today!

I felt like I as a croat could not put a foot outside what was croatian terrotory under yugoslavija. that is just a personal story I would like to share because I think that shows you can not feel croat while speaking croatian, sining the national song, dancing their dances and doing what all croat do. that makes me sad, so i support a free croatia, as well as bosnia, serbija etc.




I believe almost 95% voted for a independant croatia in 1991 and I have no friend that say he miss yugoslavia because you did not feel free.

When I was in military did you know I supported communist party lead by tito? also when I was growing up,I did that, but it took me years to find out that maybe its not the best for all the ethnic people in the yugoslav area? maybe people would feel more free? maybe it is for the best?
So yes I see what you mean with your comment, we can argue ALL day that yugoslavija was best, because you are communist you want a communist world, without 100-200 countries, so I see how you like countries melting together, but it was against peoples will

[SergeNubret]

Strange assumption. How people think differs from time, economic system or in short material conditions. Even laws and norms differ from time to time and are certainly not tied to any country.

You also confuse the state with government. A state is a tool of class-oppression, so it is useless when it has no class to oppress. Government is something completely different.



In the current conditions you would be right. However, you must remember that no real leftist thinks that we can achieve a world without nations in our current society. We think the disappearing of nations can only happen if capitalism is destroyed.

economic system, laws and norms are not tied to any country, i don't know 100 percent what you mean?
Maybe you feel state is a tool of class opression, but what if i told you it make people feel protected when there is a strong state? Even if country is without class, maybe there is noe actual need for state, but people would want it?

[ВАЛТЕР]

The hell of Yugoslavia was being Croatian and not being able to stand up for their national pride. I was once jailed with a few friends for sining ljipo nasa domovino in the street.

Probably for disturbing the peace. "Stand up for your national pride"? What does that mean? How do you "stand up" for it? Also, the spelling on your nationalist song that you take so much pride in is wrong. Which gives you away as diaspora. Which is it? Canada? US? Australia? ;)


I have a tatto on my right shoulder, you probably know how it looks, one of the first croat flag symbol, the "chessboard". Which has got me into questioning in a police station over 5 times whenever I wear t shirt with no clothing over the shoulder. 90% wear no t shirt because it warm in the summer, I felt the need to hide up my arm because I was proud?Probably because that "checkerboard" is associated with the Ustasha, and having it alone tattooed on your arm probably provoked people.


I did not tell that one time I visit Belgrade for 2 weeks with my family(1980-1981) to go to museums and see monuments and at night going to the hotel from a food store 3 serbian (20 years old) beat me up so I go hospital for 2 weeks in a coma, when I woke up i needed to pay what is probably 2-3,000 dollar today,
so of course I call police to find a way so that i can not pay, because I got beat up by 3 serbijan people on street, I did not do anything, literally! I talked what Serbian people hear as "croatian accent"
my wife cried 2 weeks standing next to me with 2 children while i was coma in hospital and we could not pay and do you know what police did?See, here I know you are lying because someone getting beat up over their accent simply never happens. I have Bosnian accent and not once has anyone approached me and asked "are you Serb, or Muslim, Croat?" Also, there are Serbs who live in Croatia and have a Croat accent, so they would run the risk beating up"one of their own". Incidents like this simply never happened.

Also, healthcare was free in Yugoslavia. There never was the chance of "we could not pay" because of you "being in a coma". You're lying.


they did not do anything, do you think it was coincident that serbian police don't want to do anything with what some serbian thugs did to me on street?
I know 3 serbian in their 20 years old of age beat me til I almost died and I could recognize them and one had tattoo on his face, I remember him today!Cool story bro.


I felt like I as a croat could not put a foot outside what was croatian terrotory under yugoslavija. that is just a personal story I would like to share because I think that shows you can not feel croat while speaking croatian, sining the national song, dancing their dances and doing what all croat do. that makes me sad, so i support a free croatia, as well as bosnia, serbija etc.You are making shit up man...your "personal story" is a lie that can be spotted from a million miles away.





I believe almost 95% voted for a independant croatia in 1991 and I have no friend that say he miss yugoslavia because you did not feel free.Or because of bourgeois nationalism. Which at that time had become the norm in all of the Yugoslav republics due to politicians using it as leverage to pursue their goals, as well as a plethora of other reasons ranging from privatization of industry to western manipulation.



When I was in military did you know I supported communist party lead by tito? also when I was growing up,I did that, but it took me years to find out that maybe its not the best for all the ethnic people in the yugoslav area? maybe people would feel more free? maybe it is for the best?
So yes I see what you mean with your comment, we can argue ALL day that yugoslavija was best, because you are communist you want a communist world, without 100-200 countries, so I see how you like countries melting together, but it was against peoples willYugoslavia was "against the peoples will"? hmm if I recall correctly, AVNOJ was made up of representatives from all regions of Yugoslavia, the decisions there were made by an agreement between all sides. Yugoslavia wasn't "forced" on anybody, it was a decision of the people at that time. A unified people that shed blood together in order to free themselves from fascism and nationalist hate.

In short: You are making shit up, outright lying, and anyone with half a brain could tell you don't even live in the Balkans. I guarantee that you are some diaspora, nationalist, who sits in the comfort of his western home and spreads hate and lies.

[SergeNubret]

its true i don't live in balkan today, but why would i lie with this story?
why would i lie that i had to pay big amount of money to the hospital?

"See, here I know you are lying because someone getting beat up over their accent simply never happens. I have Bosnian accent and not once has anyone approached me and asked "are you Serb, or Muslim, Croat?" Also, there are Serbs who live in Croatia and have a Croat accent, so they would run the risk beating up"one of their own". Incidents like this simply never happened."

and how old are you? in your 20s? did you live in yugoslavia until you were 5 then i fell?
I lived there many years and i can tell you that bad things happend on the street all the time.

as for my tattoo, in some way I supported ustasa but not when it come to jasenovac and other concentration camp for serb, any serb idiot know that you don't have to support genocide because you have tattoo.
if i see german people i don't think they support hitler right away.
if i talk to people from usa i dont think right away that they are some fat person eating burger king every day?



"Yugoslavia was "against the peoples will"? hmm if I recall correctly, AVNOJ was made up of representatives from all regions of Yugoslavia, the decisions there were made by an agreement between all sides. Yugoslavia wasn't "forced" on anybody, it was a decision of the people at that time. A unified people that shed blood together in order to free themselves from fascism and nationalist hate."

this is just stupid from your part

these "croat" representative, do you think they were in any way nationalist? did they want a free croatia? of course not! these "croats", "sloveens" etc that made decicion supported yugoslavia, they were communists that wanted yugoslavia so were they are from does not have anything to say!!

"Or because of bourgeois nationalism. Which at that time had become the norm in all of the Yugoslav republics due to politicians using it as leverage to pursue their goals, as well as a plethora of other reasons ranging from privatization of industry to western manipulation. "

aaaah it was bourgeois nationalism? aah then it's okay, the people did not "want" to get out of yugoslavia.
If a democratic election is held and 95% of croats vote to get out of yugoslavia and representative then get out, is this bourgeoise nationalism?



and there is no reason for calling me a liar when i tell you the truth of what happen to me once in serbia, and ops sorry for misstyping my own national song, i dont have keyboard with all the croatian letters, but if you want i can find it one internet and copy it here it is: Lijepa naša domovino
is that better?

[ВАЛТЕР]

Why would you lie? Idk, because you are an idiot nationalist dog, that is why. Nationalist savages from all sides tend to enjoy lying about things.

The whole paying at a hospital is bullshit because I know from experience within my own family. My cousin was born with nerve damage in his arm. He had over 10 operations, 5 of them being in Yugoslavia. he traveled from Sarajevo (where my family is from) to Belgrade, as well as Zagreb. never once having to pay a cent to have these operations done. So I know you are a lying animal from that.

Stupid on my part? I laid out facts, you laid out nonsense. You nationalist animal. My ex-girlfriend was from Croatia, from Pula to be exact. Nobody ever said a word to her when we went to Belgrade to visit it. in fact everybody was quite friendly and well-mannered.

I am calling you out on your obvious lies. We have a saying in the Balkans. You lie like a dog.

[SergeNubret]

I asked you, how old are you?
Did you live a few decades in yugoslavia or a few years?
After Tito's death I witnessed nationalism grow, I stick with croat nationalism, serbians with srpski nationalism

but I went to hospital in beograd as croat when nationalism is rising up, i don't know if that is reasons why i had to pay, but still, this was under yugoslavia and I have felt oppressed many years, that's why i know its best for serbians to live in serbija, croats in croatia, you know what i mean?

[SergeNubret]

People born in 1990 and after in serbia might be nice? I have nothing against a serbian kid if i see one? my son has serbian friends that are well mannered, but serbians born in ex 1960 that is a hole other case i can tell you that.

[Durruti's friend]

Well what difference does it make if someone was born in the 1990s or in the 1960s? Someone's behavior isn't determined by that person's nationality. People can be good or bad no matter what their nationality is.

On your question - nationalism is a fake idea made up by the ruling class for the purpose of separation of the working class in different countries. The people will be occupied by fighting the "enemies of the state", "enemies of the nation", etc. and will forget about the real problems, like extreme poverty and rising inequality. So, nationalism is just a tool for preservation of capitalism.

With that in mind, I don't see a problem in the coexistence of nations (in your case Croats and Serbs). Your idea of one nation ruling another collapses if you know that communism is a society in which there is no ruling bureocracy and all working men (and woman) can get equal amounts of products.

Nationalism - just say no. ;)1

[SergeNubret]

Well what difference does it make if someone was born in the 1990s or in the 1960s? Someone's behavior isn't determined by that person's nationality. People can be good or bad no matter what their nationality is.

On your question - nationalism is a fake idea made up by the ruling class for the purpose of separation of the working class in different countries. The people will be occupied by fighting the "enemies of the state", "enemies of the nation", etc. and will forget about the real problems, like extreme poverty and rising inequality. So, nationalism is just a tool for preservation of capitalism.

With that in mind, I don't see a problem in the coexistence of nations (in your case Croats and Serbs). Your idea of one nation ruling another collapses if you know that communism is a society in which there is no ruling bureocracy and all working men (and woman) can get equal amounts of products.

Nationalism - just say no. ;)1


what i took bold text I will answar you this:
well because in the 90's yugoslavia broke up, slovenia, croatia and bosnia become independant, Serbija was called yugoslavia a few more years if i remember corectly and it was ruled by communists turning nationalist.
The difference between someone born in 60's and 90's: If you were born as serbian or croat in 60's you felt attached to that nation (even tough we all lived under yugoslavia, serbs sang serb national song and had serbian flag) and it was "war" between us, we argue whos nation is best, I as croat think croats are best (without being violent or something, just my opinion) and serbians and croat have always been mean to eachother and it caused fight in school yard, as well on street which happend to me as well. and using military
in 50's, 60's and 70's nationalism was still around, in starting becoming bigger and bigger in 80's, but still SERB and CROAT has always been worst enemies of people in yugoslavia

90'S born people was born when nation was independant! Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia! They can more free'ly be nationalist because no harm comes from waving with flag or singing national flag as high as you can, you can have tatto on shoulder without being attacked on the street!!
my croat son has 2 serbian friends which is good friends and they were in my house 100's of times and i like them very much, we talk history, we talk about daily stuff and they are very nice, I have house covered in croatian stuff and they NEVER said anything like this: "Croatia should never leave yugoslavia", "they are not their own people"
they did not jugde in that way, they love serbs, i love croat, we have our own nation, no problem!

So if you were born in 90's you did not get in war with people if you supported your own people!! You can be nationalist in own country, and leave other countries alone


"On your question - nationalism is a fake idea made up by the ruling class for the purpose of separation of the working class in different countries. The people will be occupied by fighting the "enemies of the state", "enemies of the nation", etc. and will forget about the real problems, like extreme poverty and rising inequality. So, nationalism is just a tool for preservation of capitalism."

I just have to say to this, because i know what you mean, i agree that
maybe nationalistic ideas was originally this? but people can be born feeling attached to their homecountry and having a love to this in their childhood. And finally fully support the country in grown age
The feeling of belonging to a country were every people live with the laws and have the same norms, have some same tradition, same religion or language maybe?
Is language and norms made to enslave workers? i do not think so sir

In croatia, people make so little money, its capitalist country of course and people make in dollars maybe 500-700$ each month? of course it depence on poeple, but that is probably to most average.
People pay bill, spend some money on food and almost no left, but this is how croatia is, i still love croatia and will not leave country behind because of poverty or problems?? NO
if your girlfriend has sickness, you donnt abandon her, you stay with her because of love you know what i mean sir?


I can say to you with honesty sir that maybe communism is the perfect world? i was former communist i know what you mean fully, but I m sorry i don't see people leaving their language, culture, nation and maybe religion for this, maybe even if it is for the better? i don't see this happen in even 200 years

[SergeNubret]

"With that in mind, I don't see a problem in the coexistence of nations (in your case Croats and Serbs). Your idea of one nation ruling another collapses if you know that communism is a society in which there is no ruling bureocracy and all working men (and woman) can get equal amounts of products."

you don't see problem in co-existaence, i see that if your end goal is communism, of course you support this, maybe if yugoslavia was created again and serbs and croat lived together, maybe you would close your eyes and "not see" the problems?
trust me, if croatia entered yugoslavia agains war would begin right away.
maybe your age also play role?
when you were born maybe there was more peace than there was before?

[Durruti's friend]

what i took bold text I will answar you this:
well because in the 90's yugoslavia broke up, slovenia, croatia and bosnia become independant, Serbija was called yugoslavia a few more years if i remember corectly and it was ruled by communists turning nationalist.
The difference between someone born in 60's and 90's: If you were born as serbian or croat in 60's you felt attached to that nation (even tough we all lived under yugoslavia, serbs sang serb national song and had serbian flag) and it was "war" between us, we argue whos nation is best, I as croat think croats are best (without being violent or something, just my opinion) and serbians and croat have always been mean to eachother and it caused fight in school yard, as well on street which happend to me as well. and using military
1) Yugoslavia was never a communist country nor were communists in power, especially after Tito's death. Milošević was never a communist.

2) SR Croatia had the checkerboard on its coat of arms. The tricolor flag was also the same as it is now. "Lijepa naša domovino" was the official anthem. You couldn't get into jail for singing the official anthem of the country.

3) Why would you ever think one nation is better than another? That's nazism.


90'S born people was born when nation was independant! Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia! They can more free'ly be nationalist because no harm comes from waving with flag or singing national flag as high as you can, you can have tatto on shoulder without being attacked on the street!!
my croat son has 2 serbian friends which is good friends and they were in my house 100's of times and i like them very much, we talk history, we talk about daily stuff and they are very nice, I have house covered in croatian stuff and they NEVER said anything like this: "Croatia should never leave yugoslavia", "they are not their own people"
they did not jugde in that way, they love serbs, i love croat, we have our own nation, no problem!
And why would then be a problem if you would live with those Serbs in a communist anti-state? Nobody will tell you that Croats don't exist as a nation if communism is introduced.


I just have to say to this, because i know what you mean, i agree that
maybe nationalistic ideas was originally this? but people can be born feeling attached to their homecountry and having a love to this in their childhood. And finally fully support the country in grown age
The feeling of belonging to a country were every people live with the laws and have the same norms, have some same tradition, same religion or language maybe?
Is language and norms made to enslave workers? i do not think so sir
There is a difference between love for your home town, village or region, and love for an abstract idea of "nation" and state. Why would you fight for a state in which you don't possess anything? You're basically fighting for your countries elite.

[SergeNubret]

hmm, I would not like to be called nazi in the way the world work today and how the german set such a good example.
If you know the ideology, nazism isn't about setting up concentration camp, that happend simply because people wanted it.

but let me say this, i support SOCIALISM, because that is something I see happening in ONE country, not impossible to reach you know
I have love for one country, i think the people living in croatia have something people in other countries might not have, this is my opinion. I told you i was communist before, but never see this ideology happening.
I want socialism in croatia, I think that would be fair.
If people want socialism, why not start in your own country? if we are ever going to reach communist, then socialism in your own country would be the way to start do you agree?

What is bad for fighting for the elite? don't you support the leadership in croatia mr? maybe it could be better of course


And when i said communist country I mean a country were communist are in charge, like tito in yugoslavia, I know communism as an ideology has never happen before

[SergeNubret]

Even so if the checkerboard was on coat of arms, it made my life hell many times
I dont know if you read somewere something like this: "Yugoslavia was a heaven to live in, Tito had great leadership and Serbians, Croats and Bosnians went along just fine all the time"
that is so much bullshit i don't even know were to start, you can't trust all those thing written by someone who did not experience it

[Durruti's friend]

hmm, I would not like to be called nazi in the way the world work today and how the german set such a good example.
If you know the ideology, nazism isn't about setting up concentration camp, that happend simply because people wanted it.
What? Concentration and death camps were means of destruction of minorities and political enemies and as such they were/are essential in nazi ideology. Nazism is based on "racial superiority" and the destruction of unwanted nations.


but let me say this, i support SOCIALISM, because that is something I see happening in ONE country, not impossible to reach you know
I have love for one country, i think the people living in croatia have something people in other countries might not have, this is my opinion.
Now, that is chauvinism.


If people want socialism, why not start in your own country? if we are ever going to reach communist, then socialism in your own country would be the way to start do you agree?

Of course, if I want a revolution, I'm going to try to achieve it primarily in my country but the revolution has to spread or it'll be destroyed. And that is why nationalism is reactionary - it serves to stop the revolution from spreading.


What is bad for fighting for the elite? don't you support the leadership in croatia mr? maybe it could be better of course

I'm a communist, of course I don't support the present leadership.
Why is fighting for the elite bad? Isn't the answer obvious?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

as for my tattoo, in some way I supported ustasa but not when it come to jasenovac and other concentration camp for serb, any serb idiot know that you don't have to support genocide because you have tattoo.

Good grief. The bestial persecution and extermination of Serbs was precisely the point of Ustaše policy; saying that you "supported the Ustaše but not Jasenovac etc." makes no sense because the Ustaše had no coherent programme above and beyond genocide. There is no good reason for someone that does not think the Serbs, Jews, Roma etc. etc. should have been exterminated to support them - even as Croat nationalists, they failed miserably by giving significant portions of Croatia to Hungary and Italy.



The hell of Yugoslavia was being Croatian and not being able to stand up for their national pride. I was once jailed with a few friends for sining ljipo nasa domovino in the street.
I have a tatto on my right shoulder, you probably know how it looks, one of the first croat flag symbol, the "chessboard". Which has got me into questioning in a police station over 5 times

There are chequerboards, and there are chequerboards. Using a variant that was associated with the "Independent State of Croatia" (quotation marks because every single claim contained in that title is an outright lie) - white first field, pointed escutcheon etc. etc. - would raise suspicion, of course. Likewise with "Lijepa Naša Domovino" - it was extremely unfortunate that the S.R. Croatia used symbols that had also been used by the fascist Viceroyalty of Croatia or the Ustaše regime. But the variants used by the S.R. Croatia were different from the fascist symbols.

In any case, you could have tattooed the Croatian flag, or the coat of arms of the S.R. Croatia on your arm. Of just stick a red star somewhere. Likewise, you could have sang any number of patriotic songs that were never associated with fascism - "Padaj, Silo i Nepravdo" ("Fall, Force and Injustice", for our international comrades) for example.


I did not tell that one time I visit Belgrade for 2 weeks with my family(1980-1981) to go to museums and see monuments and at night going to the hotel from a food store 3 serbian (20 years old) beat me up so I go hospital for 2 weeks in a coma, when I woke up i needed to pay what is probably 2-3,000 dollar today,
so of course I call police to find a way so that i can not pay, because I got beat up by 3 serbijan people on street, I did not do anything, literally! I talked what Serbian people hear as "croatian accent"

Alright, let us assume that happened, even though, as Walter notes, healthcare was generally free in Socialist Yugoslavia. What of it? I mean, it is unfortunate that someone would beat you up because of your nationality, but it doesn't prove some sort of centennial enmity between Croats and Serbs.


See, here I know you are lying because someone getting beat up over their accent simply never happens. I have Bosnian accent and not once has anyone approached me and asked "are you Serb, or Muslim, Croat?" Also, there are Serbs who live in Croatia and have a Croat accent, so they would run the risk beating up"one of their own". Incidents like this simply never happened.

I don't think that it is strictly speaking impossible for something like that to have happened - I mean, shitheads are everywhere, unfortunately, but I don't recall it being a noticeable problem.

Unlike, for example, the tendency of Zagreb hooligans to beat up people with a "southern" accent. That is a noticeable problem. But does this mean that there is some sort of centennial animus between people from Dalmatia and those from Prigorje? As if.


So yes I see what you mean with your comment, we can argue ALL day that yugoslavija was best, because you are communist you want a communist world, without 100-200 countries, so I see how you like countries melting together, but it was against peoples will

It was precisely the armed people from all the republics and regions of Yugoslavia that joined together to drive out the fascist beasts and to restore Yugoslavia on the basis of national equality.


these "croat" representative, do you think they were in any way nationalist? did they want a free croatia? of course not! these "croats", "sloveens" etc that made decicion supported yugoslavia, they were communists that wanted yugoslavia so were they are from does not have anything to say!!

So someone only counts as Croatian if they are also a nationalist?


They can more free'ly be nationalist because no harm comes from waving with flag or singing national flag as high as you can, you can have tatto on shoulder without being attacked on the street!!

It's not as if jingoism can lead to hate crimes and ethnic cleansing, right?


The difference between someone born in 60's and 90's: If you were born as serbian or croat in 60's you felt attached to that nation (even tough we all lived under yugoslavia, serbs sang serb national song and had serbian flag) and it was "war" between us, we argue whos nation is best, I as croat think croats are best (without being violent or something, just my opinion) and serbians and croat have always been mean to eachother and it caused fight in school yard, as well on street which happend to me as well.

Whether you like it or not, the idea that "Croats are the best" implies that other ethnic groups and other nationalities are inferior. And don't try to pass this jingoism as simply being "attached to your nation" - someone can feel affection to their cultural heritage, their place of residence etc. etc. without demeaning other nations.

And if you're attached to the Croatian nation, you should definitely reconsider your attitude to socialist Yugoslavia; after all, Croatia experienced a cultural renaissance in the period. Zagreb in particular became one of the cultural centres of the region. And now this "independent" Croatia of ours is once again a provincial backwater, with tedious, tendentious literature, unimaginative films and ear-rending music. And the official language is more disconnected from the manner in which actual Croatians speak than it has ever been.

So perhaps our messrs. "nationalists" should learn to appreciate socialist Yugoslavia. Or does it bother them that Croatian culture was coalescing into the wider Yugoslav culture at that point? But then they aren't attached to their culture and their people; they're bigoted against other cultures and other peoples.


I have love for one country, i think the people living in croatia have something people in other countries might not have, this is my opinion.

They do. It's called the "Croatian Democratic Union", and other countries are fortunate not to have it.

[SergeNubret]

"Good grief. The bestial persecution and extermination of Serbs was precisely the point of Ustaše policy; saying that you "supported the Ustaše but not Jasenovac etc." makes no sense because the Ustaše had no coherent programme above and beyond genocide. There is no good reason for someone that does not think the Serbs, Jews, Roma etc. etc. should have been exterminated to support them - even as Croat nationalists, they failed miserably by giving significant portions of Croatia to Hungary and Italy. "

When Ustasa started as a group they did not say: "We want to kill minorities in Croatia" That happend over time.
My father personally supported Ustasa, but when concentration camps came he actually backed out. He wanted croatia with croats and no minority, BUT no killing of the minorirties of course.
The killings happend and became a bigger part of ustasa as soon as their power began to grow bigger.


"Alright, let us assume that happened, even though, as Walter notes, healthcare was generally free in Socialist Yugoslavia. What of it? I mean, it is unfortunate that someone would beat you up because of your nationality, but it doesn't prove some sort of centennial enmity between Croats and Serbs."

My point is that if sivil people get hurt on street, than maybe it's not the best system? this did not only happen to me, and this problem did not only happen on street.
I know many many croat that would work 1 hour and get what would be only a few dollars, and serbs with the exact same job that would make twice or three times as much money.
Croatia worked more and harder than serb in yugoslavia but got less in exchange.
Did not most of the money get used on serbian land ares or the serb people?

"It was precisely the armed people from all the republics and regions of Yugoslavia that joined together to drive out the fascist beasts and to restore Yugoslavia on the basis of national equality. "

And how many people changed their mind after a few years of Tito?


"So someone only counts as Croatian if they are also a nationalist?"
In a way yes, and I will tell you why.

Because if you are communist from Croatia, do you by that reason represent all croats?
You can have many many communist in government, and 70% can be nationalist, does that make the communist right?
Does communist representing croatia did not want a free croatia because they all supported the end goal of communism somewhere in the future, so they did not listen enough to the regular person of croatia, and I can say that most people was in some way nationalist when it came to croatia under yugoslavia.
I have never talked to a croatian person saying he or she misses yugoslavia, that only something i hear from communist on this forum.
I think communist does not represent his country when it does not support his country any more then he support internationalism, hope you know what I mean, sorry if i write to bad sir

"Whether you like it or not, the idea that "Croats are the best" implies that other ethnic groups and other nationalities are inferior. And don't try to pass this jingoism as simply being "attached to your nation" - someone can feel affection to their cultural heritage, their place of residence etc. etc. without demeaning other nations."



So perhaps our messrs. "nationalists" should learn to appreciate socialist Yugoslavia. Or does it bother them that Croatian culture was coalescing into the wider Yugoslav culture at that point? But then they aren't attached to their culture and their people; they're bigoted against other cultures and other peoples."

Nationalist can feel their country and culture is "best" the most warm hearted country to live in, but does this make me violent? No.
Does this make me look at other country as inferior? No
I do not want Serb people to suffer in Serbia, I do not want people in Malta do have it less better then Croat people, I think each majorirty of people with the same language, history, overall culture deserve their own country if they have that much in common =)

"And if you're attached to the Croatian nation, you should definitely reconsider your attitude to socialist Yugoslavia; after all, Croatia experienced a cultural renaissance in the period. Zagreb in particular became one of the cultural centres of the region. And now this "independent" Croatia of ours is once again a provincial backwater, with tedious, tendentious literature, unimaginative films and ear-rending music. And the official language is more disconnected from the manner in which actual Croatians speak than it has ever been."

So Croatia would have been worse country if it was independant from 1918 and after that?
Croatia could also evolve into something much better then it is today, maybe the economic system would have been better if it was left to croats for a change.
Maybe Croats could have control of the croatian money that croat workers make?

[SergeNubret]

"What? Concentration and death camps were means of destruction of minorities and political enemies and as such they were/are essential in nazi ideology. Nazism is based on "racial superiority" and the destruction of unwanted nations."


Then I will say that communism is an ideology that supports camps like Gulag.
How many workers died there? i think i forgot
must be funny being put there because you arrive 10 minutes late for a meeting at your job

[Durruti's friend]

When Ustasa started as a group they did not say: "We want to kill minorities in Croatia" That happend over time.
An ethnicly cleansed Croatia was the prime goal of the Ustasha. Since the beginning.


My father personally supported Ustasa, but when concentration camps came he actually backed out. He wanted croatia with croats and no minority, BUT no killing of the minorirties of course.
The killings happend and became a bigger part of ustasa as soon as their power began to grow bigger.
And the ethnic cleansing of minorities is OK? Are you going by the Starčević maxim of "Killing one third, catholicizing another third and deporting the last third." ? (it's about Serbs)
If you are, there's no place for you here.


I know many many croat that would work 1 hour and get what would be only a few dollars, and serbs with the exact same job that would make twice or three times as much money.
Croatia worked more and harder than serb in yugoslavia but got less in exchange.

If you can't prove it, you're lying. This is plain national-chauvinism.


Did not most of the money get used on serbian land ares or the serb people?

It went to southern Serbia, Kosovo and Macedonia as a part of the strategy of developing the southern parts of Yugoslavia. And with all those givings, SR Croatia and SR Slovenia still had a better standard than those regions. Don't you think helping the poor is a good thing?


Then I will say that communism is an ideology that supports camps like Gulag.
How many workers died there? i think i forgot
must be funny being put there because you arrive 10 minutes late for a meeting at your job
That's not an argument for anything. The USSR wasn't a communist society, nor was Yugoslavia. And workers didn't go to labor camps for being late, Yugoslavia was rather liberal when it comes to work ethics.

[SergeNubret]

I can assure you there was no info about setting up concentration camp for serbs when the ustasa first was created.
Ethnic clensing does not have to be done with violence

[SergeNubret]

"It went to southern Serbia, Kosovo and Macedonia as a part of the strategy of developing the southern parts of Yugoslavia. And with all those givings, SR Croatia and SR Slovenia still had a better standard than those regions. Don't you think helping the poor is a good thing?"

Of course helping poor does not sound like a good thing, but I knew Croatia was going to be independant so I always thought the money croatian workers make were to build and develope croatia, no i think it was waste, sorry

[SergeNubret]

"That's not an argument for anything. The USSR wasn't a communist society, nor was Yugoslavia. And workers didn't go to labor camps for being late, Yugoslavia was rather liberal when it comes to work ethics."

Oh, so the top leader of the USSR was inspired by theories of fascists?
interessting, you can't just rest on the matter that USSR wasn't communist society. (I know in fact it wasn't) but that was their ideal goal and they did not set good example

[SergeNubret]

"It was precisely the armed people from all the republics and regions of Yugoslavia that joined together to drive out the fascist beasts and to restore Yugoslavia on the basis of national equality. "

Haha the armed forces was still a minority compared to all sivilian living in Croatia, were was the voting held?
Did majority want veliko hrvatsko to fall?

[Durruti's friend]

I can assure you there was no info about setting up concentration camp for serbs when the ustasa first was created.
Ethnic clensing does not have to be done with violence
Ethnic cleansing isn't good, it doesn't matter if it is "non-violent" (how can forcing people to leave their homes be non-violent, anyway?).


Of course helping poor does not sound like a good thing
Wut :confused:


but I knew Croatia was going to be independant so I always thought the money croatian workers make were to build and develope croatia, no i think it was waste, sorry
We were all living in the same country and Croatia had more than enough for itself. What's wrong with helping lesser developed regions?


Oh, so the top leader of the USSR was inspired by theories of fascists?
interessting, you can't just rest on the matter that USSR wasn't communist society. (I know in fact it wasn't) but that was their ideal goal and they did not set good example
Uh, yeah, but a lot of people here (myself included) don't think so. And Yugoslavia was not Stalinist.

C'mon admins, why is he allowed here?

[The Vox Populi]

I don't see one world government. I see independent countries with the same party flag. It worked in America, it can work on a global scale. America is basically a conglomerate of independent states with their own laws and flags. But then they all have agreed to be absorbed into the union (hince it's the united STATES of America). They all have a federalist party overseeing and ultimately protecting them from exterior and interior threats, they all fly a state flag but also the banner of the union.

The only problem are the unconstitutional regulatory bureaucracies that have caused bloating and over spending. (i.e. FAA, EPA, and IHC)

[Sea]

I don't see one world government. I see independent countries with the same party flag. It worked in America, it can work on a global scale. America is basically a conglomerate of independent states with their own laws and flags. America is America is America. No American states have any meaningful degree of sovereignty.
But then they all have agreed to be absorbed into the union (hince it's the united STATES of America). They all have a federalist party overseeing and ultimately protecting them from exterior and interior threats, they all fly a state flag but also the banner of the union.I'm afraid that's not really what bourgeois governments set out to do but whatevs.
The only problem are the unconstitutional regulatory bureaucracies that have caused bloating and over spending. (i.e. FAA, EPA, and IHC)What the hell does the Federal Aviation Administration have to do with this?
I asked you, how old are you?
People born in 1990 and after in serbia might be nice? I have nothing against a serbian kid if i see one? my son has serbian friends that are well mannered, but serbians born in ex 1960 that is a hole other case i can tell you that.Time to put your BS to the test.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Ex I myself am Croatian and have lived through the hell of Yugoslavia and seen how Serbians have treated Croatian people in the government and also on the street while we were all living "happy" under the same country.

Could you please cite examples of this inequality? A family member of mine is from Croatia and they tell a very different story - both in Yugoslavia's break-up and discrimination in the modern era.


I believe Croats and Serbians have been hostile to eachother for 100s of years and even under the same flag they will never be friends.


Now this is just racist garbage.

Just because you are enraptured in Balkan race politics does not destroy the concept of a stateless society.

[player-zgb]

Could you please cite examples of this inequality? A family member of mine is from Croatia and they tell a very different story - both in Yugoslavia's break-up and discrimination in the modern era..
Well, for example the Serbs were overpresented in the administration and the Party. 60% of the police were Serbs, 30% memebers of the party were Serbs (also that are sources from Slavko Goldstein and Dušan Bilandžić; they are hardly biased). The most of money went in Serbia although it was not the most economically developed (that were Slovenia and Croatia)

[stefanbl]

You can't build socialism if you think of yourself as a Croatian or a Serb.