Thoughts on Juche?

[HomelessMaoist]

I was wanting to know what the leftist community thinks of the patriotic socialist ideology of Juche, and if it has a place among the other leftist ideologies.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I do consider it a form of socialism, but a very degenerated one. Nationalism, monarchy style hereditary rule, and bureaucratic party rule are not exactly things I would consider to be socialistic. However, there's no denying that the Korean workers have made gains. They really try with what they have and it's hard, considering a majority of the farmland was in the South at the time the country split up.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Evidently, through an anarchist viewpoint, juche is not even socialist. The only thing socialist about it is the fact that the communist party is the only party.

[Skyhilist]

My thoughts on Juche is that Juchists don't have very many good thoughts.

[Mackenzie_Blanc]

Juche? I must have not realized that communism involves a patriotic monarchy of the proletariat. What rock have I been living under? :confused:

[The Red Comet]

Juche? I must have not realized that communism involves a patriotic monarchy of the proletariat. What rock have I been living under? :confused:
Monarchy? Kim-Jong Un is the Commander-In-Chief and the First Secretary of the Worker's Party of Korea. He is not Chairman of the Assembly or the Premier. All the power is not consolidated solely with him. Regarding the question on Juche - I believe it is a form of Socialism.

[DasFapital]

I see it as stalinism taken to its logical conclusion

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Ignoring the one liners presented here, Juche does not have it's ideological heritage in Marxism and therefore can not result in "Socialism". Or at least the Marxist conception of what Socialism is. Now understandly, the North Korean system does involve a large amount of state ownership and therefore can be defined as socialist by capitalist standards. But it is neither a place where the proletariat exersize a dictatorship or where "Every cook can run the country" to use Lenin's phrase. If you would like to read about this in detail I wrote a blog post about it a little bit ago.

http://aroundthepear.blogspot.com/2013/03/some-thoughts-on-juches-relationship-to.html

[Per Levy]

juche is shit and has fuck all to do with socialism/communism.

[JPSartre12]

"Juche" is, according to the North Korean constitution, the creative application of Marxist-Leninism to North Korean material conditions. I would not call it "socialist" or "communist".

[Yuppie Grinder]

Ignoring the one liners presented here, Juche does not have it's ideological heritage in Marxism and therefore can not result in "Socialism". Or at least the Marxist conception of what Socialism is. Now understandly, the North Korean system does involve a large amount of state ownership and therefore can be defined as socialist by these standards. But it is neither a place where the proletariat exersize a dictatorship or where "Every cook can run the country" to use Lenin's phrase. If you would like to read about this in detail I wrote a blog post about it a little bit ago.

http://aroundthepear.blogspot.com/2013/03/some-thoughts-on-juches-relationship-to.html

Nationalization is not socialism. Generalized commodity production under state management is still capitalism.

[Yuppie Grinder]

If you call North Korea socialist, you are for real a major dolt.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I see it as stalinism taken to its logical conclusion

Actually it is the inverse. Kim Il Sung largely sympathized with Khrushchev line during the Sino-Soviet Split. Occasionally there is some honorable mention made in North Korean propaganda of his legacy but this is only because Kim Il Sung wanted to receive aid from both sides of the split. In actuality his economic policies and ideology reflect the logical conclusions of Khrushchev's line. In particular this is reflected in how he devloped the North Korean economy primarily for the purpose of trade, making North Korea to a large extend the "Venice" of the Communist bloc despite it's claims to self sufficiency. This is part of the reason why North Korea is going through a famine. While Kim Sung Ill was building roads assuming he'd always have gasoline, Hoxha electrified the entire country and began to export electricy in the eighties while Mao's China reinvented methods for Oil Drilling and cures for malaria indepedant from outside knowledge. To quote Hoxha on Kim Il Sung while he was visiting North Korea:



On September 7 we arrived in Pyongyang. They put on a splendid welcome, with people, with gongs, with flowers, and with portraits of Kim Il Sung everywhere. You had to look hard to find some portrait of Lenin, tucked away in some obscure corner.

We visited Pyongyang and a series of cities and villages of Korea, where both the people and the party and state leaders welcomed us warmly. During the days we stayed there, Kim Il Sung was kind and intimate with us. The Korean people had just emerged from the bloody war with the American aggressors and now had thrown themselves into the offensive for the reconstruction and development of the country. They were an industrious, clean and talented people, eager for further development and progress, and we whole-heartedly wished them continued successes on the road to socialism. However, the revisionist wasp had begun to implant its poisonous sting there, too. In the joint talks we held, Kim Il Sung told us about an event which had occurred in the plenum of the Central Committee of the party held after the 20th Congress.

“After the report which I delivered,” Kim told us, “two members of the Political Bureau and several other members of the Central Committee got up and raised the question that the lessons of the 20th Congress and the question of the cult of the individual had not been properly appreciated amongst us, here in Korea, that a consistent struggle against the cult of the individual had not been waged, and so on. They said to the plenum: ‘We are not getting economic and political results according to the platform of the 20th Congress, and incompetent people have been gathered around the Central Committee.’

“In other words, they attacked the line and unity of the leadership,” continued Kim Il Sung. “The whole Central Committee rose against them,” he said in conclusion.

“What stand was taken towards them?” I asked.

“The plenum criticized them and that was all,” replied Kim Il Sung, adding:

“Immediately after this the two fled to China.”

“To China?! What did they do there?”

“Our Central Committee described them as anti-party elements and we wrote to the Chinese leadership to send them back to us without fail. Apart from other mistakes, they also committed the grave act of fleeing. The Chinese comrades did not send them back. They have them there to this day.”

We said openly to Kim Il Sung: “Although we have no detailed knowledge of the matters which these two members of the Political Bureau raised, and it is not up to us to pass judgement on your business, since you have told us about this problem, we think that this is a serious event.”

“In our country, too,” we told him, “after the 20th Congress of the CPSU, there was an attempt by anti-party elements to organize a plot against our Party and our Central Committee. The plot was a deed organized by the revisionists of Belgrade, and as soon as we became aware of it, we crushed it immediately.” We went on to speak about the Party Conference of Tirana in April 1956 about the pressure which was exerted on us, and the unwavering, resolute stand of our Party towards external and internal enemies.

“You are right, you are right!” said Kim Il Sung, while I was speaking. From the way he spoke and reacted I sensed a certain hesitation and uncertainty that were overwhelming him.

I was not mistaken in my doubts. A few days later in China, during a meeting I had with [Boris] Ponomarev, a member of the Soviet delegation to the 8th Congress of the CP of China, I opened up the problem of the Korean fugitives. “We know about this,” he replied, “and have given Kim Il Sung our advice.”

“You have advised him? Why?” I asked.

“Comrade Enver,” he said, “things are not going well with the Koreans. They have become very stuck up and ought to be brought down a peg or two.”

“I am not talking about their affairs in general, because I know nothing about them,” I told Ponomarev, “but about a concrete problem. Two members of the Political Bureau rise against the Central Committee of their own party and then flee to another socialist country. Where is Kim Il Sung at fault in this?!”

“The Korean comrades have made mistakes,” insisted Ponomarev. “They have not taken measures in line with the decisions of the 20th Congress, and that is why two members of the Political Bureau rose against this. The Chinese comrades have been revolted by this situation, too, and have told Kim Il Sung that if measures are not taken, they are not going to hand over the two comrades taking refuge in China.”

“Astonishing!” I said.

“You have no reason to be astonished,” he said. “Kim Il Sung himself is retreating. A plenum of the Central Committee of the Korean party has been held these days and the Koreans have agreed to correct the mistakes.”

And this turned out to be true. The two fugitives returned to Korea and the places they had had in the Political Bureau. Under pressure, Kim Il Sung bowed his head and gave way. This was a joint act of the Soviets and the Chinese, in which a special “merit” belonged to Mikoyan. He had been sent to China at the head of the Soviet delegation to the 8th Congress of the CPC, and without waiting for the Chinese congress to finish, the man of the Khrushchevite mafia together with Peng Dehuzi, whom Mao Zedong gave him as the representative of China, hastened to Korea to tune up the wavering Kim Il Sung to bring him into harmony with the Khrushchevites.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Nationalization is not socialism. Generalized commodity production under state management is still capitalism.

I agree, which is why I said this in my post.

Although it might have been a bit unclear so I fixed it slightly

[Yuppie Grinder]

If you believe that why do you support the robbery of soviet power by the Bolsheviks and the state-capitalism of Mao and Stalin?

[The Red Comet]

If you believe that why do you support the robbery of soviet power by the Bolsheviks and the state-capitalism of Mao and Stalin?

Robbery in what way? And how was Mao a State Capitalist? Or Stalin for that matter?

[Skyhilist]

Aggggh not this argument again. :glare: