Originally posted by
[email protected] 9 2004, 06:37 PM
Yeah, its not a new concept, and people are ignorining it, hense the reason we have so many obese people. Kind of says perhaps we shouldn't be ignoring it, at least to me.
Well, if it isn't a new concept, it isn't an effectual concept as it isn't making people east their veggies, let alone children, why continue with it?
How is that backpeddling, I said that if dietry values and disiplin are not taught by parents to children, then the kids will get fat. Modern society kind of backs up that view or are so many people obese just for the hell of it?
You are backpedalling because the point you originally made was that members of 'utopian anarchist societies' would be dying if the type of approach to children put forward was implemented. You singled out anarchism as being responsible for such a phenomenon, but when I pointed out that the situation is reflected in our current society, which is antithetical to an anarchist society, you made out that your point was something else.
And every word I said was gospel truth, and only a fool would deny it.
Do you understand the concept of a paragraph? They are not just blocks of sentences that are spaced apart from others to look pretty. The part you are responding to here was part of a larger paragraph that was a group of similar ideas or ideas developing out of one another. I first said you were backpedalling, and then I elucidated my criticism by quoting the part of your post that demonstrated this. I didn't ask if you thought what you wrote was 'gospel truth', and I really don't give a shit whether you think it is the truth or not. It is completely irrelevant to the point of the paragraph. This regular hand-holding is becoming tedious, and I think, hardly worth the effort.
These things are happening to a large extent, yes, but many people still get healthy balanced diets from their parents, in an anarchists society, NO ONE would, simply because what will kids choose, sprouts, pea's and cabbage or a fry up and chocolate? Doesnt take a rocket scientist to work the answer to that question.
Cheers for reiterating my point.
So parents will suddenly start only offering their children fry-ups and chocolate for meals because they live in an anarchist society? People will not stop caring about their health simply because they live in an anarchist society? It really isn't rocket science, Enigma. I allow my daughter to eat the things she likes. She has never, even as a baby, liked cooked carrots. I don't put them on her plate when I make dinner. In fact, I ask her before I make dinner which veg she would like, and I only offer her those I know she will eat. Why make her eat them when she does like corn and peas and cucumber or if she doesn't want veg she can choose a piece of fruit instead. She is happy to try things because I have never made her eat something she didn't like. She doesn't like cooked leeks on their own, but loves leek and potato soup.
Your point seems to change regularly, so I wouldn't be so certain I am reiterating anything for you.
It is when people actually do. Its easily proved anyhow because how many overweight vegetarians do you know?
No, it is part of the ethos of this society and has been for some time. The approach I have taken with my daughter is certainly not the norm. What exactly is your allusion to overweight vegetarians supposed to prove? :lol:
Ohh getting stressed are we, perhaps you should eat less red meat and more fruit and veg... knew exactly what you meant, and what your point was, hense the reason I ripped your argument to shreads a few lines down. I just chose to answer you question, and point out that I dont sit down and learn trivial persuit cards by heart.
just a little tired of needing to hold your hand through every post because you are apparently too stupid to make the connection between your conclusion that parents who cannot get their children to eat large quantities of veg haven't tried hard enough and the fact that it is perfectly natural for anything other than breastmilk to taste foul to babies thus making it difficult for parents to feed them to children in the first place. If you knew exactly what I meant and made the connection you wouldn't have said it was a 'trivial fact', a 'mastermind question', or in other words, something that had no relevance to the discussion, which it has. Your arrogance doesn't cloak your ignorance as well as you think it does. ;)
As for ripping my argument to shreads (LOL!), where exactly did this occur?
My knowledge of parenting in this post comes from asking my mother who has had nearly 18 years worth of experiance in parenting. My knowledge of children comes from spending 7 years in a bording school with children aged 6 - 18 staying their. Of course I havent been their for a few years but I can remember our diets and what it was like living with 40 other kids. So I would say even though your a mother I have a hell of a lot of experiance with and around children. Its interesting to note that everyone ate the vegtables, because if they didn't, they didn't get any pudding. Simple as that.
Good for you! My experience is different. What your comment shows is either being so determined to be right at all costs you are ignorning and dismissing other people's experiences or you don't have practical knowledge of parenting.
Why would I have a problem with that? If the child likes say brocolli but not sprouts, then dont cook sprouts. If they like apples buy apples, but as long as they eat something.
It isn't forcing children to eat their veg, iwhich is what you have been arguing for. It is recongising that children are people and have different tastes to other people and because of this should not be forced to eat things they don't like.
Thats a shame for her then, but do you make her eat some fruit or veg, right? If you dont then I worry for her future, because you can be sure that come secondary school that unless she likes vegtables the only thing she will eat is Pizza, Burgers and chips. And I can guarantee I know more about the current diet of Teenagers than you do.
Why is it a shame for her? Just because there isn't a lot of veg she likes doesn't mean she doesn't eat plenty of what she does. She eats only the veg and fruit she likes, and I don't make her eat anything.
In which case she gets a fine dose of Vitamins, but does she get enough Iron etc?
She gets enough of everything, Enigma. I am sure she gets enough iron from the fish and meat she eats. ;)
There is a differance between force feeding, and saying, "if you dont finish those pea's then you wont get any ice-cream". Having seen this being highly effective in the past, you would be amazed how quickly kids will get to like most common vegtables.
As for the Ethiopia thing, you knew exactly what I mean, people are very lucky to live in the west, to have this kind of option for a healthy balanced diet. Others dont get that luxury and it says a lot about how much you obviously take for granted.
There isn't when the child doesn't like peas. I am amazed people choose to do it when children will eat vegetables and fruit and get all the things they need without being forced to eat something they don't like. Oh, and making a child eat veg and then giving them pudding as reward isn't a very healthy approach because it would be better for them to eat their veg and only eat the occasional pudding. Yes, I understood what you meant about Ethiopia, and you are right except for offering this as a justification for forcing children to eat things they don't like.
You will also find that most docters say that a child should have a healthy balanced diet.
Did I suggest otherwise?
And you call me a moron? I know what a healthy balanced diet it, like it or not vegtables are part of that, and unless you want your child growing up with health problems, and bad dietry habits in later life, then this is what you need feed your kid. That is unless you would rather that they live of Burger King etc.
Yes, I call you a moron because of your rather stupid remark about her liking only pills because she takes vitamins. As much as you would love to hear that my child lives on Burger King and this is due to not force feeding her veg she doesn't like, I will have to disappoint you. She isn't forced to eat things she doesn't like and she is perfectly healthy, happy and doesn't have nutritional deficiencies.
Then wahts your argument because last post you said: -
Explain how the statements are in contradiction to one another?
One says children could develop complexes from being forced to eat things they refuse to eat. The other says, in response to your assertion that not all children will develop a complex or hate their parents, that just because some don't end up hating their parents doesn't make what you suggest right.
Also what argument do you have that it should not be done? Giving your child a healthy balanced diet should not be done? Giving your child good dietry habits for the future isn't a good idea? So very convinsing.
See, you think that one precludes the other. I don't. I know it is possible to allow children to eat the things they like and get a balanced diet. I know that teaching children about dietary habits without forcing them to eat things they don't like is possible. My argument against forcing children to eat things they don't like is that children are people. You wouldn't force another person to eat things they don't like, and I don't think children should be treated differently.
I know about Anorexia from having a good personal friend suffer from it and what she told me about it, if that doesnt agree with your pamphlet, then fine, but I believe what she told me.
Get the fuck over yourself, already. Yes, I forgot your mother's experience, your friend's experience and your own are the defining experiences for every problem and solution in the world. And is this another friend now because last time you said she had bulimia? :rolleyes:
I cant wait so see what they are, I quiver in anticipation
The quivering is probably due to being forced to eat things you didn't like.
I was responding to someone specifiacally about, education, deitry needs of children and why children should go to bed at socialble hours. All you have done is insult me without actually placing forward an argument.
You were responding to a specific post. The parts that pertained to my own ideas and experience I responded to. I have insulted you and have put forward an argument. My argument was and is that children do not and should not be forced to eat things they like, that they can and will still eat fruit and veg even if they are not forced to eat the ones put in front of them and they can have a balanced diet. If you seriously haven't got that from my posts you deserve every insult thrown at you.
I have no questions for you, except to ask what exactly is your argument, you say people should not force kids to eat vegtables. I ask you how they should get the necesarry nutrients and you call me a moron. What is your point, if you actually have one, should kids eat vegtables or not? And if they dont want to then how do you suggest that children have a balanced diet, and dont turn obese and have major problems come middle age?
I have answered all of this already.
Well, if it isn't a new concept, it isn't an effectual concept as it isn't making people east their veggies, let alone children, why continue with it?
Despite their being laws against theft, rape, murder, arson and drug dealing these crimes still occur, why not completely legalise all crime as enforcement is obviously inefectual.
Your argument is as usual stupid, and with a little examination riddled with flaws.
And the reason why we should continue with it is to stop societies children being unhealthy. Of course anarchists are against this idea and capitalists make money out of parents being too weak and ineffective to stand up to their kids which will actually help thenm in later life. Or are you so dense that you cant comprohend why McDonalds is nearly 100% aimed at children?
You are backpedalling because the point you originally made was that members of 'utopian anarchist societies' would be dying if the type of approach to children put forward was implemented. You singled out anarchism as being responsible for such a phenomenon, but when I pointed out that the situation is reflected in our current society, which is antithetical to an anarchist society, you made out that your point was something else.
Did I say that unhealthy eating is "unique to anarchism"? No, so as usual your case falls apart at the first hurdle.
And what I said was that this anarchist view, that children should in no way have any control placed upon their lives, would cause obesity etc. That is not backpeddling. The only backpeddling that has occured in this thread is from you, when you said that you gave your child supliments, which is I doubt your child would eat without you telling her too.
Do you understand the concept of a paragraph? They are not just blocks of sentences that are spaced apart from others to look pretty. The part you are responding to here was part of a larger paragraph that was a group of similar ideas or ideas developing out of one another. I first said you were backpedalling, and then I elucidated my criticism by quoting the part of your post that demonstrated this. I didn't ask if you thought what you wrote was 'gospel truth', and I really don't give a shit whether you think it is the truth or not. It is completely irrelevant to the point of the paragraph. This regular hand-holding is becoming tedious, and I think, hardly worth the effort.
Blah blah blah, didn't answer the point.
So parents will suddenly start only offering their children fry-ups and chocolate for meals because they live in an anarchist society?
until they can why not cook what they like.
Kids like fry-ups and chocolate, and that i'm afraid isn't a balanced diet.
People will not stop caring about their health simply because they live in an anarchist society?
Absolutly not, they just wont be able to do anything about it, as their kids will only eat what they like most, chocolate and fry ups, and their wont be anything the parent can do without enforcing authority on the child.
It really isn't rocket science, Enigma.
Your damn right it isn't, its a case of making children accustomed to the taste of food that if they wish to gain the necessary dietry needs they will have to eat if they wish to remain healthy throughout their lives.
You also seem to be unable to grasp the differance between ramming food into a child's mouth, and getting them to eat it by giving them treats when they do. Which is a recommended form of disiplining a child without ever having to use physical force.
She has never, even as a baby, liked cooked carrots.
She should try raw carrots, very nice.
I don't put them on her plate when I make dinner.
So if a child doesnt like any vegtables at all, then what do you do completely neglect their diet which is necessary to remain healthy?
Why make her eat them when she does like corn and peas and cucumber or if she doesn't want veg she can choose a piece of fruit instead.
Fruit does not contain the necessary nutrients which most vegtables do, for a start.
She is happy to try things because I have never made her eat something she didn't like.
Many children are wary of new things, just because your's isn't doesn't mean that all parents have it as easy to provide chilren food they will like.
She doesn't like cooked leeks on their own, but loves leek and potato soup.
And?
Your point seems to change regularly
Hardly my point has remained static, children need vegtables and sometimes some form of authority must be exerted so that the child meets these dietry requirments. I say this then you deny it, and your one and only argumjent seems to be that you feed your child the vegtables she likes, well not all parents have that luxurey. For example a cousin of mine has a boy who as a toddler hated all green vegtables he tried, what would you suggest his parents do? Just let his dietry needs go to hell and feed him ice cream and chips?
And at least I have a point, you dont seem to you just argue for the sake of argument.
The approach I have taken with my daughter is certainly not the norm.
I gather that, most parents from what I gather usually feed children too much of what they want, rather than what they need. Hense the growing heath problems in todays society.
What exactly is your allusion to overweight vegetarians supposed to prove?
The food children want, certainly isn't what they need, I doubt many children would touch most meals vegetarians eat, yet many vegetarian diets are very healthy.
Not stressed,
right. :rolleyes:
because you are apparently too stupid
Thats a possibility, but I have an IQ of 135, so I doubt intelect is a problem, maybe your complete lack of an argument is the problem?
You see what I have been saying is widly accepted dietry advice, and the method of getting a child to eat vegtables is a recomended method of getting children to eat less popular foods. So who's the stupid person really?
the fact that it is perfectly natural for anything other than breastmilk to taste foul to babies thus making it difficult for parents to feed them to children in the first place.
Well most mothers are told to start weening babies off breast milk at 6 months (at earliest), so I would have thought that 4 year olds etc, should not really have that excuse, as they are not babies.
Your arrogance doesn't cloak your ignorance as well as you think it does.
My arrogance? You obviously dont know the meaning of the word, as you exibit arrogance in every post you make because your not only patronising but you clearly think that you are gods gift to motherhood.
As for ripping my argument to shreads (LOL!), where exactly did this occur?
Well you have completely failed to disprove a single comment I have made to you, where as I have on the other hand, have backed up my statments, with advice given to mothers, by experts, and you have absolutly failed to produce an argument other than what you as a mother do, which is in its self flawed, as some children are not as tolerant as yours is of new foods and vegtables. In short all you have done is critisise me, rather than my arguments.
Give it up you haven't got a point.
What your comment shows is either being so determined to be right at all costs you are ignorning and dismissing other people's experiences or you don't have practical knowledge of parenting.
LOL what bullshit. The simple fact is everything I have said is based on my own vast personal experiance of being around children, and what I asked my mother, to whome I actually showed your post, and asked what she thought of it, (and she has a lot of practical experiance of being a parent) and the responce she gave about the material was not flattering towards what you said at all. She said "wait until she [your girl] grows up a bit and then she [you] wont think that." Or something along those lines.
It isn't forcing children to eat their veg, iwhich is what you have been arguing for.
Well I was thinking about parents who have children who refuse to eat nearly all greens. And you also seem to have an exagurated view of what I mean by force. I do not mean physically forcing the food down. Rather saying "if you want pudding, eat the pea's".
It is recongising that children are people and have different tastes to other people and because of this should not be forced to eat things they don't like.
Children dont like to go to school, yet it would not be a wise move to allow a child to go without education, just because they dont want to go. In the same way you should not starve a child of what they physically need to remain healthy, just because they would rather eat a mars bar than eat a salad.
Why is it a shame for her?
Its rather restrictive to what food she will eat, so she's missing out on some really nice dishes.
Just because there isn't a lot of veg she likes doesn't mean she doesn't eat plenty of what she does.
You seem to be under the impression that all children are like that, they are not. Many hate a lot of vegtables, and unless their parents use a little bit of persuasion, the child will become unhealthy.
I am sure she gets enough iron from the fish and meat she eats.
Fish does provide Iron, yes, cod liver oil I remember reading has quite a lot, however I would imagine you would get more from red meats, if vegtables were not an option.
There isn't when the child doesn't like peas.
Pardon?
I am amazed people choose to do it when children will eat vegetables and fruit and get all the things they need without being forced to eat something they don't like.
Again if a child doesn't live vegtables at all very much, then many parents are left with little option.
Oh, and making a child eat veg and then giving them pudding as reward isn't a very healthy approach because it would be better for them to eat their veg and only eat the occasional pudding.
It depends on wht the pudding is, of course fats, oils and sweets should be taken sparingly, but it really depends on what the pudding is, if it is for example assorted fruits, like grapes, oranges, apple etc, with cream then its not going to be a problem. Also pudding is usually a small serving anyway, and a health site I visit sometimes recomends puddings containing fats, oils and sweets should only be 1 serving a day, where as Vegtables is 3-5 servings a day and the carbohydrate high foods such as bread, pasta, cerial, rice etc should be a large 6-11 servings. 6-11 seams a little excessive but i'm sure they are right.
So yeah, pudding should be taken in moderation.
Yes, I understood what you meant about Ethiopia, and you are right except for offering this as a justification for forcing children to eat things they don't like.
The point was people should consider them selves lucky, it was rather an after thought, that a main part of the argument.
Did I suggest otherwise?
Well that can be difficult to achive unless a little authority is used.
I call you a moron because of your rather stupid remark about her liking only pills because she takes vitamins.
I never said that, I never even implied that, your a moron because you obviously cant read. You said you give your kid vitamin supliments, which are usually little pills, and I asked this question: "She prefers pills to food?", I also added a sarcastic comment, but you can ignore that.
As much as you would love to hear that my child lives on Burger King and this is due to not force feeding her veg she doesn't like, I will have to disappoint you.
You wait till she's a teenager...
One says children could develop complexes from being forced to eat things they refuse to eat. The other says, in response to your assertion that not all children will develop a complex or hate their parents, that just because some don't end up hating their parents doesn't make what you suggest right.
Which is rubbish, because I have never ever heard of a single case where a child has had a "complex" because their parents forced them to eat all the carrots on the plate, or whatever. Even if that was the case, then I would be willing to bet that the child also had other major contributing issues to this "complex".
And what you said was that a child could get a complex so they shouldn't be made to eat vegtables, you then said that, just because a kid is unlikley to get a complex from eating vegtables it shouldn't be done.
On a side note, their is also a possibility that a child may be hit by a car walking down the road, it doesn't mean that children should be restricted being near roads, just because some remote possible danger exists.
I know it is possible to allow children to eat the things they like and get a balanced diet.
I suppose it is possible but it is possibe to play the national lottery and win the jackpot every time, it is possible to break a 64 bit eyncription first time, just highly unlikley.
Just because your child happens to be easy to please when it comes to healthy eating doesnt mean that other children are.
My argument against forcing children to eat things they don't like is that children are people.
Judging that unless children aquire the taste for healthy food, which is more difficult to do than aquiring the taste for unhealthy food, you should neglect childrens health because children are people? Well, yes children are people, and as such they have dietry needs, and unless these dietry needs are appeased, then the child will become unhealthy.
You wouldn't force another person to eat things they don't like, and I don't think children should be treated differently.
Well other people are old enough to make an informed decision, on whether they should eat healthily or be unhealthy because unhealthy things happen to taste nicer. Young children do not have that luxurey.
Get the fuck over yourself, already.
From Red "i've done this, i've done that, ive got so much experiance, and i'm so unconventional, and your a little moron" FW, sorry but you wont mind if I tell you where to stick it, you patronising, hypocritical, arrogant piece of shit.
And is this another friend now because last time you said she had bulimia?
Yeah thats because bulimia is a method of anorexia, you see they eat lots and get the pleasure of eating and then make them selves sick or use laxatives excessivly, so they can stay thin. It also goes by the name of bulimarexia, of course strictly speaking it is different from anorexia, but it takes a very pedantic person to pick some one out on it.
So thats right, you go back to your perfect parenting and absolute infalible experiance, while I go and visit the real world.
I cant wait so see what they are, I quiver in anticipation
The quivering is probably due to being forced to eat things you didn't like.
nahh, mainly because I'm wondering what your next arrogant ranatage will be about, and wondering how exactly you will make it as patronising as possible.
I have insulted you and have put forward an argument.
This argument would that be, that it is "possible" for a child to eat healthily without making them eat what they dont want to. Possible being a very good word for it, as it is also possibe for that not to be the case.
If you seriously haven't got that from my posts you deserve every insult thrown at you.
No I get what you said, I just think that you have been lucky in your child's tastes etc, and others do not have that good fortune and have stubborn kids, who refuse to eat any vegtables.
I have answered all of this already.
yes you did manage it in the final post you made. It was obviously a great struggle for you, to actually answer the question, but you managed it.