Large Population = Large Government

[apathy maybe]

As soon as you concentrate people in one location you start needing someone to 'take charge'. Take a city of 1 million for instance, who controls the food, water, electricity and so forth? Sure a committie does it, one of those 'Anarchist' committies. Sorry but thats a government.

So to get rid of government you need to do one of two things (that I can see),
either spread your population out (well this one wont work 'cause space travel ain't that good)
or cut your population down. As I have said in another thread a population of about 2 million would be great for a variety of reasons mainly environmental, but also political.

responses?

[The Feral Underclass]

It's called collectives. Each area is broken down into collectives. Factories, water stations, electricity stations are collectivised. Each area collective operates how it chooses, without a central command and a hierarchy. Maybe there are different people taking different responsabilities. One person is responsable for getting milk, another for electricity supplies. Each person reports back the work they have done every week to the collective assembly which is voluntary and problems and solutions are discussed.

The responsability areas can be worked out using demarchy or on a simple rota basis depending on how the collecive wanted to run things.

The factory collectives etc run pretty much on the same basis except they are a production collective rather than a collective where people live ie an area. Again responsabilities are handed out using demarchy, national rota basis or simply volunteers. Each week the factory or whatever comes together in a workers assembly and discussing the problems of the week and debate solutions democratically without a central authority or a hierarchy.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Who is going to make the one person get milk? What about jobs that require specialization? What if someone can't handle a certain job? What will run the collectivized factory? Demarchy is still a government, and what if someone with a few loose nuts gets in charge? What if someone doesn't want to do anything?

[Xprewatik RED]

Anarchism has no logic. A factory is not 200 farmers in a building. It doesn't take one week to learn how to operate a machine, or a week to learn how to operate a boiler, or a week to learn how to operate a circuit board. What are you going to do put the head of human services or the plant pshychologist in charge of fixing electrical wires? What? Maybe in a comune of 40 people but not in a society. A city needs a system everyone working independantly doesnt work. How do you regulate cheating laziness? You think archetyples and collective conciousness are things that can disappear in ten years a hundred years? You think a majority of people wont need some sort of motivation? How do you control crime? Vigilanties? A committe with no established boundaries? what?

[Kez]

in these anarchist "collectives" who co-ordinates me getting pineapples if i live in France?

[Xprewatik RED]

in these anarchist "collectives" who co-ordinates me getting pineapples if i live in France?


Well....hmm.... The real question is "what are we going to do with all those rotting pinnapples that lenny the lazy anachist was supposed to pick?"

[The Feral Underclass]

It doesn't take one week to learn how to operate a machine, or a week to learn how to operate a boiler

So the collective assigns people who have those skills to the relevant responsability area.


What are you going to do put the head of human services or the plant pshychologist in charge of fixing electrical wires?

I doubt a plant psychologist could fix electrical wires. If he wanted to learn that trade he could do in his spare time. His socially necessary work however may have to be something a little simpler it really depends on how the collective wishes to operate.


A city needs a system

Collectives co-ordinating work assignments is a system.


How do you regulate cheating laziness?

I think laziness will be a very rare thing and would be dealt with by the collective. The workers are not going to have accepted communist, fought for a revolution, watch their comrades die and upturn the fabric of society, just to sit back on their asses.


You think archetyples and collective conciousness are things that can disappear in ten years a hundred years?

And go back to what? Why would be give up freedom, the ability to live secure lives and work for their own desires to return to capitalism. Why after fighting to achieve this society would they all of a sudden decide not to have it anymore.

Even if they did, what could anyone do about it. If the majority of workers decide they dont want to live in this society anymore what are we going too do, force them. And when we speak of we, what does that mean. Me and you will just be apart of those masses with no power to dictate in what directionsociety moves. We can object we can try and argue against it, but at the end of the day if the majority call for it, there isnt a lot we can do about it. Also baring in mind that these workers will be conscious so any decision they make will not be uninformed or uneducated. It wouldnt be a question of them being brainwashed. Unless someone had a really big watch...


You think a majority of people wont need some sort of motivation?

Society!.....what kind of world are you fighting for?


How do you control crime? Vigilanties?

What crimes? what vigilantes.


in these anarchist "collectives" who co-ordinates me getting pineapples if i live in France?

Lewis Curruthers...I have no idea who would co-ordinate your pinapple delivery, I am sure it could be sorted out for you.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by Xprewatik [email protected] 4 2004, 01:23 PM
in these anarchist "collectives" who co-ordinates me getting pineapples if i live in France?
A magical fairy? :D

Or maybe the pineapples themselves? :lol:

Or maybe the pineapple collective can come to a decision on its delivery via a direct democratic vote? <_<

It&#39;s quite obvious that you don&#39;t even advocate any sort of stateless society...so why the &#39;Marxist&#39; tag?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Not everyone accepts the stateless interpretation of Marxist doctrine.

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:14 PM
Not everyone accepts the stateless interpretation of Marxist doctrine.
im all for anarchism after communism, however, i genuinly dont know how i would get a pineapple from hawaii to France...surely there must be some sort of international organisation? and what is the difference between this "organisation" and government?

do the 2 collectives vote on the issue simultaneosly? and if they both agree, does every colleective have to have a boat to traansport goods? making it inefficient, surely a larger organisation of some sort is neccesary?

Comrade James, i think rather than trying to label me or unlabel me something is childish, i&#39;d rather u answered the question oh wise one...

[Blackberry]

Kez:


i&#39;d rather u answered the question oh wise one...

I will then, your majesty.


what is the difference between this "organisation" and government?

Government: Hierarchical structure; top-down; part of state structure. Decisions created by the few at the top; decisions must be followed by the rest at the bottom.

Workers&#39; Collective: Non-hierarchical; bottom-up; part of decentralised, non-statist &#39;structure&#39;; recallable by community in stateless society. Decisions created by all at the bottom; decisions are carried out by groups or individuals assigned to specific tasks as a result of a decision.


i genuinly dont know how i would get a pineapple from hawaii to France...

Hawaiian farm collective receives call from French Food Collectives Confederation (or whatever it may be). They say: &#39;we need x amount of apples&#39;. Farm required to serve community, decide on arrangements on transportation. Pineapples then transported. French receives pineapples.

That&#39;s a (very) simplistic situation. It ignores what type of economy the situation is based in (which I did purposely, as I do not want to use one type and leave another. There are several types of anarchist economies).

There is a very detailed account on how an anarchist economy could function, which I think you will enjoy, considering your apparent enthusiasm: http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secI4.html#seci44

And of course, there is the example of Spain 1936 that has put to practice some of the economic practices mentioned in the above link.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Why do you confuse the word "government" with the word "state"?? The state is based on hierarchical power and control over many aspects of a country. Different associacions would play the role of "government" in anarchism, but there isnt authority involved, there is no exploitation, everything should be controlled democratically. This associations can constantly change their structure, divide in others, disintegrate of necessary and convenient, and there can be others who do exactly the same thing in the same place if necessary. This has to be flexible and based on what those working there want and think is better to have efficiency.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 02:16 PM
do the 2 collectives vote on the issue simultaneosly? and if they both agree, does every colleective have to have a boat to traansport goods? making it inefficient, surely a larger organisation of some sort is neccesary?
I&#39;d say the French collective who asks for the pineapples needs to say an exact ammount and the Hawaiian producers should supply them according to their request and their production. If they have 5000 pineapples and they ask 5000 from France and 3000 from Spain they have different options. They workers of the Hawaiian collective should establish their policies for every situation, like "we supply first the one who asked first" (in this case lets say that the frenchs asked first, they send them all their production and once they have 3000 more they send them to Spain, or if the Spaniards asked first, they send them 3000 and the other 2000 go to France, and later they send the rest, or they call the representatives and make an arrangement like "we can only send you x amount, is it ok if we send you the rest in another moment"? They could also ask others producers if they have pineapples ready to export.
Then the pineapples are taken into an airplane from the Hawaiian Collective of Air Transport, and then they go to France. Once they arrive to the airport they are put into a truck (controlled by the French Collective of Land Transport - Cargo Division - Paris area), and then they are taken into a local supermarket from the local Collective of Food Distribution, which requested the pineapple. And then the ones who needed them go and get a fair amount. If they ask for 500 pineapples for a family made of 4 people, they are only given what they need.

That&#39;s an example of course.

[apathy maybe]

In Tasmania we have a library system which is compleatly owned and operated by the state government. That is to say, the Library is a seperate organisation which has branches in most towns and all cities, they run themselves, and basicly have compleate control. The govt. just pays the bills. What happens is that you get a card and you walk into a branch and browse the shelves for a book you want or you goto a computer and you look it up. If the book you want is on the shelves of the branch your in, you go and get it out, if it is at another branch you can put it &#39;on hold&#39;. This means that the first avaliable copy is sent to the branch of your choice where you can pick it up.

This system allows the Librarys to buy fewer books (&#39;cause you only need a few copies of one book rather then one for every branch) and is a great example of how computers make life easier.
If you are in France and you want pineapples, you goto you local fruit place and if they don&#39;t have any you can &#39;put it on hold&#39; and the first avaliable pineapple will come to your local fruit place. No doubt they&#39;ll send a number rather then just one. It might be sent directly (if it&#39;s in the next town) or indirectly (if it has to come all the way from Hawaii).

This requires no organisation beyond the simple, send stuff from point A to point B (maybe via point C if they also want pineapples).

[Adamore]

anarcrist tension u got good ideas apathy maybe u got good ones to i think if a lott stuff worked this way it would be a whole lot easier than it is now and if u dont wanna do that ( like work and stuff) then the other people can just shut them out if u dont work u dont eat

[Saint-Just]

How do you control crime? Vigilanties?


What crimes? what vigilantes. ~The Anarchist Tension

I should imagine there would be a small number of criminals and lazy people, surely they would be ejected from society, that is the answer most Anarchists I have come across give.

And of course, there is the example of Spain 1936 that has put to practice some of the economic practices mentioned in the above link.

In a book on Anarchism I read that in Spain people got more work credits for the less desirable jobs, do you advocate this?

I mentioned this before but I don&#39;t remember where. Anyway, a spokeswoman for the Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War said that the Anarchists, in retrospect, should have taken control of the republican forces to put an end to the factional struggles between Communists, Anarchists, Democratic Socialists and so on. Would you say that they should have taken control of that they were right not to do so? She said that they were asked to but rejected the idea, for the obvious reasons.

I said I could not remember her name before, I can but I forget how to spell it, its along the lines of Frederiche Monsenye.

[redstar2000]

As good responses have already been made to the other questions raised, permit me to pound away at this one...


You think archetypes and collective consciousness are things that can disappear in ten years, a hundred years?

What is the necessity of dragging Jungian superstition into this forum?

There&#39;s not a shred of evidence to support it, anymore than there&#39;s a shred of evidence to support the "resurrection".

As an "objection" to classless society, this is bullshit. You may as well argue that communism is "impossible because of original sin"&#33;

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Kez]

so, the way in which co-ordination is set out,what is the difference between a world wide administration (lets say connecting telephone cables from one commune to another) and a government, unless the answer is that government and state are interchangabel, in which case there are huge differences, but to what level can there be a world wide administration to organise stuff between communes. If it was set for communes themselves to do it, it would be most inefficient and you wouldnt even solve most of the problems, as you only tackle questions on a regional basis.

[Saint-Just]

I think Anarchists are fundamentally against bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is large scale administrative tasks carried out in hierarchical organisations.

Perhaps it would be acceptable as long as the bureaucracy had no heirarchy, but then it would not be a bureaucracy and a bureaucracy with no hierarchical structure is inconceivable.

[Guest1]

Do you think of your phone company as an oppressive state apparatus? Beyond the fact that it charges you for what should be free I mean.

I didn&#39;t think so.

An international organization for communication, which I would imagine would cover the internet as well as long distance calls, would simply be a forum for cooperation between collectives. It&#39;s not like it carries any power of its own.

[Saint-Just]

A phone company can be oppressive. A heirarchical organisational structure is oppressive, to an Anarchist. Such a structure exists in phone companies today. How would an organisation that by the very nature of its activity requires itself to be large operate?

At present we see that such an organisation must be organised and procedural due to the number of individuals working in the organisation and the accuracy necessary of its work.

We can see that small scale acitivities can be done in an Anarchic fashion, however when an activity is as large as the one mentioned it seems inefficient to do so.

In any organisation people must be told what to do. To ensure quality you have to provide individuals to oversee all communication that is taking place between the various processes in production.