Why do you communists scrutinize our country?

[Y2A]

I understand that the United States has done some bad things in its history but it seems ridiculous to me that so many on these boards are ignorant enough to put full blame on solely the United States. I understand your desire for a socialist world but let's face it, revolution eventually leads to totalitarian stalinist reguimes. How do you expect everything to be centralized to the state yet to have true equality? Do you not realize that this will eventually lead to totalitarianism. I understand the anger towards globalization aswell but stopping corporations from doing so would only hurt already struggling economies, drastically lower employment rates, halt any advancement, and lead to even more poverty. The key to helping the poor in these nations is not to stop globalization but to better regulate it so that workers are not having there rights taken from them.

I see several threads that state how foolish the "yanks" are. I find it ludicrous that you think so. While of course in the United States there are many ignorant individuals to say that we are all that way is generalizing. I find it hypocritical how you are angered when capitalist generalize you but think it is fine to generalize us americans.

And I have also found threads that talk of the lower classes of the United States claiming how it poverty is terrible in the U.S. I find that reasoning uninformed. I come from a working class immigrant family and can tell you that many of your assumptions are very bias and sometimes flat out false. I just made it out of the inner city a few months ago(Newark New Jersey) and sometimes wonder how many of you, with all your critizism, are actually from the working class and live in "ghettos" or have lived in them.

Don't think that I am a conservative either, I am more of a centerist leaning towards the left. I just thought I'd ask why you are so critical of our country without even taking into account that capitalist societies, with all it's flaws, have been far superior to communist ones.

BTW..... I probably hate bush more then anyone on these boards :D

Sorry for the grammatical error on the title, it should read "Why do you communist scrutinize our country".

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Welcome to che-lives :)


...but it seems ridiculous to me that so many on these boards are ignorant enough to put full blame on solely the United States.

We don't put full blame at all on the US. We largely blame the US because ever since the end of WWII the United States has supported dozens of reactionary leaders, oppressive nations, fascists, and anti-communists. They've also occupied many soveirgn nations and installed oppressive right-winge regimes all for the purpose of preventing the the rise of socialism or suppressing rising socialism. So ultimately they are our number 1 enemy.


I understand your desire for a socialist world but let's face it, revolution eventually leads to totalitarian stalinist reguimes. How do you expect everything to be centralized to the state yet to have true equality? Do you not realize that this will eventually lead to totalitarianism.

It doesn't necessarily need to be centralized.
Centralization, however, allows the people to rule through a central organization of the working class that can operate to create equality and have supremacy over smaller-scale bourgeois counter-revolutions and it can more effectively prevent individuals from agglomerating the prducts of society by subjugating workers with money, property, religion, etc.


I understand the anger towards globalization aswell but stopping corporations from doing so would only hurt already struggling economies, drastically lower employment rates, halt any advancement, and lead to even more poverty. The key to helping the poor in these nations is not to stop globalization but to better regulate it so that workers are not having there rights taken from them.

What the working class of the third-world needs is autonomy from first-world corporations that have been allowed to claim the labour and resources of struggling Latin American, Asian, and African nations for individual foreign investment. What would truly benefit the workers is fair ownership of the products of their labour and not exploitation of their labour for foreign profits. Their rights will not be taken away from them if they are given collective power in a community which provides for them properly and does not work to brutaly subjugate them and perpetuate the power structure of the bourgeoisie in unfair opposition to the people.


I see several threads that state how foolish the "yanks" are. I find it ludicrous that you think so. While of course in the United States there are many ignorant individuals to say that we are all that way is generalizing. I find it hypocritical how you are angered when capitalist generalize you but think it is fine to generalize us americans.

Because Americans, whites and males are in positions of power in society, and shitting on them makes the disadvantaged feel better about the slavery and oppression they endure at their hands. Other groups which are in a social disadvantage may not be shit upon, because then that would be furthering of the already-present oppression.


And I have also found threads that talk of the lower classes of the United States claiming how it poverty is terrible in the U.S. I find that reasoning uninformed. I come from a working class immigrant family and can tell you that many of your assumptions are very bias and sometimes flat out false. I just made it out of the inner city a few months ago(Newark New Jersey) and sometimes wonder how many of you, with all your critizism, are actually from the working class and live in "ghettos" or have lived in them.

Poverty is not terrible in the United States. There is much more, however, than what is widely-known. I've found that most middle-class right-wingers try to convince each other that poverty is something that is deminishing all over the world. And even though the ruling class and the middle class may be rising, the working class is growing much faster all over teh world. In American they remain of a modest size, but it's more than many make it out to be.

Where we come from really doesn't matter. All memebrs of the international proletariat are our comrades and we will fight for theri freedom.


Don't think that I am a conservative either, I am more of a centerist leaning towards the left.

That's good to know. But as long as you're willing to work within bourgeois elections and cooperate with the capitalists, you are innevitably supporting the capitalists. Because all bourgeois politicians are forced to bend over to the capitalist class and its interests if these politicians wish to be successful at all.


I just thought I'd ask why you are so critical of our country without even taking into account that capitalist societies, with all it's flaws, have been far superior to communist ones.

Socialist nations of the 20th century have followed an excessively authoritarian ideology called Stalinism which did not satisfy the people and resulted in its downfall. The leaders were corrupt and too powerful. As you can see in my avatar, Lenin, a brutal totalitarian according to western propagada, actualy highly objected to one-man leadership. In many nations, however, it failed due to the negative impacts of capitalist imperialism and bourgeois efforts to destroy socialism.


BTW..... I probably hate bush more then anyone on these boards

good to hear. :)

[kylie]

I agree, making generalisations against the US does happen, and hinder the left. But I dont think this is really people saying that they seriously think all americans are dumb, in most cases at least.
As for making value-judgements towards certain ways of living i agree with you again, this does nothing to help win people over to Marxism, telling them that they should support it because how they live sucks. Plus it is untrue, they is much more factors involved in how a person develops, it being more complex than simply class, plus the person themselves playing an active role in development and isnt just a passive recipicant to these factors.
Most Marxists argue that there has never been a communist country. In fact its not possible, communism being stateless. but you probably mean a properly Marxist ideology based state, which also most people would argue has never really existed.
And welcome to the board.

[Bolshevika]

Totalitarian Stalinist regimes :rolleyes:

I like your avatar, is that JFK? It's too bad I wasn't around to deliver the bullet into the back of his skull.

Firstly, the United States is the root of all things wrong in the world. They bring their products to foreign countries, bring their disgusting customs, disgusting lifestyle, and mostly, colonize everything they see in sight. THEN they cry and moan when oppressed peoples get up and do to them what the Americans have done to foreign peoples for hundreds of years!

Personally I believe the American people are stupid beyond repair and my style of socialism would be too "hard" on them. Then again, if I tell them they are free like George Bush tells them, they'll believe me.

The reason I blame America is because they are what has created this global cesspool of feces you call a "society". Hotdog chugging, baseball watching morons that go to other countries and take pictures of everything. They keep the oppressed people down and stop them from achieving their goals! They starve children and prostitute women.

Economic egalitarianism is superior to American bourgeois individualism.

[kylie]

boy are we all in trouble when you get into power :rolleyes:
bolshevika, you're such a cool badass hardliner. I really hope you're british, so i may serve under you one day.

[el_profe]

LOL. All the commies on this board are hypocrties.

First of all, most of them are not poor. They all ***** about corporations and capitalism but they all have pc's, most of them went christmas shopping and most of what they use to live has come's from capitalism.

But what really makes them hypocrites, is how they all hate globalization and free trade. BUT THEY ***** ABOUT THE USA NOT TRADING WITH CUBA, lol. If they want the embargo lifted then dont ***** about free-trade or globalization.

then we get these great idiotic comment's like these:

Firstly, the United States is the root of all things wrong in the world. They bring their products to foreign countries, bring their disgusting customs, disgusting lifestyle, and mostly, colonize everything they see in sight
LOL. And then she *****es about the embargo on CUBA, which if lifted will only bring American products to CUBA. And what about cars imported from japan, or from germany or from italy or from france??? Why dont u blame them for that. IF YOU HATE AMERICA PRODUCTS SO MUCH, dont use a PC.

The statement Bloshevika made is like me saying, I hat chinese people because thanks to them their is alot of chinese restaurants in my country. LOL. Or blame mexico fro mexican restaurants.


The reason I blame America is because they are what has created this global cesspool of feces you call a "society". Hotdog chugging, baseball watching morons that go to other countries and take pictures of everything
Yeah, those baseball watching morons. They are the same as those beer drinking hockey watching canadiens, or the rest of the world that watches soccer, I also dont like australians because they are beer drinking , rugby watching morons. Or those cuban's and fidel castro that like baseball so much, or the english that actually watch that crappy sport cricket.??

Basically Bolshevika hates American culture, the thing is all americans except the indians all where immigrants so you can blame each of those countries from which they came from for american society. ;)

[Bolshevika]

LOL. And then she *****es about the embargo on CUBA, which if lifted will only bring American products to CUBA. And what about cars imported from japan, or from germany or from italy or from france??? Why dont u blame them for that. IF YOU HATE AMERICA PRODUCTS SO MUCH, dont use a PC.

Firstly, I am a male (yes the name is misleading I will have it changed soon).

Secondly, this PC was made in Mexico.

Personally, I don't want the United States to trade with Cuba, I think what most socialists on this board want is for the United States to allow other countries of the world have healthy trade relations with Cuba without the United States whining about it.

I agree the other Western capitalists have done some dumb stuff too, and are to blame for the degenerated state the world is in, but the United States is by far the worst.

The rest of your post made little to no sense.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 01:10 PM
I understand that the United States has done some bad things in its history but it seems ridiculous to me that so many on these boards are ignorant enough to put full blame on solely the United States.
First of all, the US has done more than "some bad things," especially in the past 50 years. Second, the US may not solely be to blame but it is for the most part, and mainstream American mentality praises its own role in world politics. It is this which we criticize when we take shots at the US. Yes, I am more than aware that not all Americans are fat, arrogant, "football"-watching, cheeto-eating, imperialist pricks but I don't care about political correctness.


I understand your desire for a socialist world but let's face it, revolution eventually leads to totalitarian stalinist reguimes. How do you expect everything to be centralized to the state yet to have true equality? Do you not realize that this will eventually lead to totalitarianism.

*yawn* I won't bother going into this with a capitalist. The liberals, anarchists and Trots are enouph of a nuisence.


I understand the anger towards globalization aswell but stopping corporations from doing so would only hurt already struggling economies, drastically lower employment rates, halt any advancement, and lead to even more poverty.

If countries become self-sufficient instead of being kept feudal states for the interests of corporations, the very opposite of what you are claiming would happen. The third world provides plentiful raw materials and cheap labour to protect the livelyhood of the corporations, hence they, supported by their government, will do everything in their power to maintain the conditions present in those places. The notion that big business is necessary to provide jobs is a lie put out by western liberal media, jobs are coordinated much more efficiently in socialist societies.


The key to helping the poor in these nations is not to stop globalization but to better regulate it so that workers are not having there rights taken from them.

And who would be the regulators? Surely not the people of the nations being oppressed by globalism.



I see several threads that state how foolish the "yanks" are. I find it ludicrous that you think so. While of course in the United States there are many ignorant individuals to say that we are all that way is generalizing. I find it hypocritical how you are angered when capitalist generalize you but think it is fine to generalize us americans.

See above.


And I have also found threads that talk of the lower classes of the United States claiming how it poverty is terrible in the U.S. I find that reasoning uninformed. I come from a working class immigrant family and can tell you that many of your assumptions are very bias and sometimes flat out false. I just made it out of the inner city a few months ago(Newark New Jersey) and sometimes wonder how many of you, with all your critizism, are actually from the working class and live in "ghettos" or have lived in them.

Your right, in a sense. Poverty in the US is nowhere near as devastating as it is in other parts of the world. That is why a large part of the "working class" here is referred to as the labour aristocracy by most real Marxists. As for the social background of socialists, I can only speak of myself. But yes, I do come from a working class background: My family immigrated to the US when I was a todler. In Argentina, we lived in a small apartment with no Television, an open roof in the middle and frequent gas cuts. We moved to Chicago when I was 3 years old and lived in a rather "lowly" neighborhood with gangs. When I was 10, we moved to California and though we lived in a suburban area, we actually lived in worse conditions than in Chicago due to the high cost of living here. I could only be considered "middle class" for the past 4 years when my father got a second job and we could afford to move to a condominium.


Don't think that I am a conservative either, I am more of a centerist leaning towards the left.

Well, your more enlightened than most Americans, but that's still not saying much.


I just thought I'd ask why you are so critical of our country without even taking into account that capitalist societies, with all it's flaws, have been far superior to communist ones.

First off, "communist" societies have never existed. Communism in Marxist terms is the final stage of class strugle in when a world-wide, class-less and state-less society is created. Ill assume that by "communist societies" you mean socialist states with a Marxist agenda (USSR, Cuba, etc.). Well, can you explain how capitalist societies have been "far superior" to socialist states (having in mind that the socialist states created were poor countries to begin with and the capitalist societies were created out of slavery and land theft)?


BTW..... I probably hate bush more then anyone on these boards :D

Good to hear.

[canikickit]

I edited the title for you.

Many people here do not believe in a centralised government of any kind.


I understand that the United States has done some bad things in its history but it seems ridiculous to me that so many on these boards are ignorant enough to put full blame on solely the United States.

The blame does not solely belong to the US. It belongs to capitalism and the US is the "most powerful nation on earth" and the heart of capitalism. The bastion of chaos, if you will.

Most things in life should be scrutinised.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 07:26 AM
Firstly, I am a male (yes the name is misleading I will have it changed soon).


OH, yes, the name is misleading.


Secondly, this PC was made in Mexico.
unless its a clone then its assemlbed in Mexico because the parts probably came either from the USA or USA companies. And the PC is a USA invention.


Personally, I don't want the United States to trade with Cuba, I think what most socialists on this board want is for the United States to allow other countries of the world have healthy trade relations with Cuba without the United States whining about it.

No, most socialist here where *****ing about the embargo and how the USA does not trade with cuba, still its hypocritical that they dont like globalization and free-trade, but want other countries and the USA to trade with CUBA.
And other countries have and can have healthy trade relations.


The rest of your post made little to no sense.
I was making a post, YOu said you hate americans because they watch baseball and eat hotdogs, I just showed u how other cultures do the same with other sports and also eat hotdogs.

[synthesis]

still its hypocritical that they dont like globalization and free-trade, but want other countries and the USA to trade with CUBA.

Communists do not oppose globalization. We only oppose capitalist globalization. When capitalism participates in globalization, atrocities almost always follow.

Check this out, for starters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1448962.stm

[LSD]

OK, people like *****ing about American values and culture and all that. But really what matters are actual l facts.

-No the United States had not been the sole perpetrator, but it has been one of the worst. And no one can deny that today it is the most powerfull county in the world. So who do you attack? The small nation that 40 years ago was a problem or the giant that continues to rape and dominate the world.

-Second, the fact is that since American values and culture and news and media are everywhere, the American viewpoint tends to dominate, so the Crimes America had commited (and still commits) are hidden. So they need to be mentioned, often, as much as possible.

-Third, unlike pretty much anyone else in the world, the United States is holding itself up as an example of what to be. a "beacon of liberty" etc... it is therefore essential to show exactly what they really represent.

-Fourth, the US is a classic example of capitalism. It is one of the most economically liberal countries in the world, so it is a perfect demonstration of what is wrong with that system. There are of course others, but the United States is bigger, and more easily seen.

Basically the US is the biggest, worst, and most visible of the bunch, so it gets notice. A lot.

[Y2A]

We don't put full blame at all on the US. We largely blame the US because ever since the end of WWII the United States has supported dozens of reactionary leaders, oppressive nations, fascists, and anti-communists. They've also occupied many soveirgn nations and installed oppressive right-winge regimes all for the purpose of preventing the the rise of socialism or suppressing rising socialism. So ultimately they are our number 1 enemy.

While I don't always agree with U.S foreign policy, many time bitterly oppose it, I do find that many times that the claims you make are flat out bias and don't see the big picture. Take the support for Hussien for example. It was before the Ba'athist took any real actions and commited atrocities against there own people and was some what neccessary to stop the Iranian fundamentalist movement. Now I hear many people say, why not support the Shia uprising in Southern Iraq? But then you fail to realize that those Shia muslims were supporters of the ayatolla and many were islamic extremist, some even to the point that you could compare to the taliban. And thus if we would have supported the Shia uprising and it would have ended up with the Sunnis being oppresed you would have blamed us as usual for the oppresion of the Sunnis and leting islamic extremist win. I refuse to try and use this as an excuse to justify previous actions but simply to put things into perspective


What the working class of the third-world needs is autonomy from first-world corporations that have been allowed to claim the labour and resources of struggling Latin American, Asian, and African nations for individual foreign investment. What would truly benefit the workers is fair ownership of the products of their labour and not exploitation of their labour for foreign profits. Their rights will not be taken away from them if they are given collective power in a community which provides for them properly and does not work to brutaly subjugate them and perpetuate the power structure of the bourgeoisie in unfair opposition to the people.

Try and look at this from a global aspect. If all production made by that third-world nation is used solely on that third-world nation then why do you expect a first-world nation like the United States to continue trade? It is just not logical. I agree that the UN and other international bodies must make serious attempts to better global trade though but abolishing globalization all together would just cut them off from the global economy like your modern day Cuba or North Korea.


Because Americans, whites and males are in positions of power in society, and shitting on them makes the disadvantaged feel better about the slavery and oppression they endure at their hands. Other groups which are in a social disadvantage may not be shit upon, because then that would be furthering of the already-present oppression.

Slavery is no longer a real problem for the blacks of this nation but rather underfunded schools and inner city domestic problems. To say that capitalism creates these problems is ridiculous, it does just the opposite, it helps you get out of them. That is what they call the American dream. Oh and by the way I am hispanic and if you think that we minorities are being oppressed you are dead wrong. I am not being "oppressed" or whatever you wish to believe. It is just not true. Sure there is discrimination, but not to the point that many of the communist on these boards think there is.


That's good to know. But as long as you're willing to work within bourgeois elections and cooperate with the capitalists, you are innevitably supporting the capitalists. Because all bourgeois politicians are forced to bend over to the capitalist class and its interests if these politicians wish to be successful at all.

I am a capitalist. I have no problem saying that I am. However I do realize there is problems with our system and thus will critize it.


Socialist nations of the 20th century have followed an excessively authoritarian ideology called Stalinism which did not satisfy the people and resulted in its downfall. The leaders were corrupt and too powerful. As you can see in my avatar, Lenin, a brutal totalitarian according to western propagada, actualy highly objected to one-man leadership. In many nations, however, it failed due to the negative impacts of capitalist imperialism and bourgeois efforts to destroy socialism.

I know that. It is not a surprise to me. I realize that they were not true communist societies but what you fail to realize is that these nations were created in an attempt to create a communist society and that is why I am against the concept of communism.

[Looter]

Is Russia trying to take over the World, is China? Yet countless fools waste their time trashing China and Russia and telling me what a threat to us they are. I live in the real world and here there is only one threat to freedom and peace around the World- the land of Slavery and Genocide. I'm amazed how, worked up people get about nonsense that is only in their head, yet when it comes to the real world they are so quick to enlist in the legions of hatred, mindlessly parroting the BS their master feeds them. What's the point of pretending to be a Communist, when you are against real Communism, I want the type of Communists that save us from the real threats, just like in 1945.

[LSD]

While I don't always agree with U.S foreign policy, many time bitterly oppose it, I do find that many times that the claims you make are flat out bias and don't see the big picture. Take the support for Hussien for example. It was before the Ba'athist took any real actions and commited atrocities against there own people and was some what neccessary to stop the Iranian fundamentalist movement. Now I hear many people say, why not support the Shia uprising in Southern Iraq? But then you fail to realize that those Shia muslims were supporters of the ayatolla and many were islamic extremist, some even to the point that you could compare to the taliban. And thus if we would have supported the Shia uprising and it would have ended up with the Sunnis being oppresed you would have blamed us as usual for the oppresion of the Sunnis and leting islamic extremist win. I refuse to try and use this as an excuse to justify previous actions but simply to put things into perspective


Speaking of Iran, how about the coup they supported there (Mossadeq) or in South Vietnam. How about what they did to Nicaragua and Vietnam and Indonesia? Remeber Arbenz and Allende? There are few countrie in recent memory with a comparable record.




Try and look at this from a global aspect. If all production made by that third-world nation is used solely on that third-world nation then why do you expect a first-world nation like the United States to continue trade? It is just not logical. I agree that the UN and other international bodies must make serious attempts to better global trade though but abolishing globalization all together would just cut them off from the global economy like your modern day Cuba or North Korea.


You're right, if they can't oppress then the US probably won't trade. Fine. This concept that every nation MUST be part of this great internation free market is western neoliberal capitalistic propaganda. It is not true and never had. Notice that the thrid world countries that have followed western economic "advice" are ending up stratified and foreign-dominated.




Slavery is no longer a real problem for the blacks of this nation but rather underfunded schools and inner city domestic problems. To say that capitalism creates these problems is ridiculous, it does just the opposite, it helps you get out of them. That is what they call the American dream. Oh and by the way I am hispanic and if you think that we minorities are being oppressed you are dead wrong. I am not being "oppressed" or whatever you wish to believe. It is just not true. Sure there is discrimination, but not to the point that many of the communist on these boards think there is.

If you don't think there is racial oppression in the US, you're blind. How many black presidents have there been? Vice-Presidents? Speakers of the house? Of the top richest Americans, how many AREN'T white men? How many are hispanic? Of course the oppression is there, there is just a concerted effort to hide it.




I know that. It is not a surprise to me. I realize that they were not true communist societies but what you fail to realize is that these nations were created in an attempt to create a communist society and that is why I am against the concept of communism.

So your brilliant policy towards ideology is to abandon it if you can point to some failure? Athens was conquered, oh well, I guess democracy makes you weak, better abandon that.....

[Tiki Man]

unless its a clone then its assemlbed in Mexico because the parts probably came either from the USA or USA companies. And the PC is a USA invention.It really doesn't matter here if you are poor or rich, it's what you do with the required money. And the jet fighter was invented by nazi germany. Inventions happen.
I was making a post, YOu said you hate americans because they watch baseball and eat hotdogs, I just showed u how other cultures do the same with other sports and also eat hotdogs.I personally like corn dogs. Everything just tastes better on a stick! I dislike American bacon though. Canadian bacon is better, IMHO.

[Y2A]

Speaking of Iran, how about the coup they supported there (Mossadeq) or in South Vietnam. How about what they did to Nicaragua and Vietnam and Indonesia? Remeber Arbenz and Allende? There are few countrie in recent memory with a comparable record.

As I said I do not always agree with U.S foreign policy and whenever the U.S changes a democratically ellected president like Allende I will always oppose it. But face it I am right, if we did support the Shia uprising and created another reguime that oppressed the Sunnis instead of the Shia's you would blame us instead of saying what many of you say now.


You're right, if they can't oppress then the US probably won't trade. Fine. This concept that every nation MUST be part of this great internation free market is western neoliberal capitalistic propaganda. It is not true and never had. Notice that the thrid world countries that have followed western economic "advice" are ending up stratified and foreign-dominated.

Yes, it's always propaganda. Everything is propaganda, I won't even respond to such a bias post.


If you don't think there is racial oppression in the US, you're blind. How many black presidents have there been? Vice-Presidents? Speakers of the house? Of the top richest Americans, how many AREN'T white men? How many are hispanic? Of course the oppression is there, there is just a concerted effort to hide it.

I am hispanic. I am not being oppressed. Why do you think that you are standing up for me? Maybe if you would just think rationally you would realize that the reason this is so is because many hispanics come here as immigrants and thus many can do not make enough immediatly to have the ability to run for office and thus must work so that his future generations have that opportunity. And also the fact that this country is 80% white. But of course you leave out the facts just judge and not even consider that I myself am a minority from a working class family. And if you want to bring up race-based AA I am against it, however I am for class based AA.



So your brilliant policy towards ideology is to abandon it if you can point to some failure? Athens was conquered, oh well, I guess democracy makes you weak, better abandon that.....

What the hell are you talking about? I never said that. I am against communism because I realize that there will always be rich and poor and nothing will change that and by trying to change it you will make things worse. What must be done is that capitalism must be much better regulated.


And one last thing I'd like to say is that I realize that there are flaw in the capitalist system and I am atleast willing to admit it unlike you that fails to see the countless flaws with communism.

[The Feral Underclass]

Y2A


I am hispanic. I am not being oppressed.

How many hispanics are on the supreme court? How many hispanics are in the cabinet? How many hispanics are running the security forces in the US? How many hispanics are on the Joint Cheifs of Staff? How many hispanics control the huge powerful lobbys? How many hispanics control the huge buisness interests in the US?........... <_<


Why do you think that you are standing up for me?

The quesiton of oppression that is in the minds of the people on this board is not just racial oppression but economic oppression. Or exploitation. The american system. Indeed the system in all western countries, if not the world, operate on a basis of indevidual greed.

I as an indeivdual can take an idea to make something such as a pair of shoes. I can either use my own money or take out loans from a bank, providing I have a sound college education and economic hisotry which at least three thirds of working class people do not have. I then set up my shoe factory and then have to employ thousands of people to work in my factory.

One thousand people are working in this factory. They work 9 hours a day for &#036;8 an hour. Each worker makes 2 pairs of shoes a day. At the end of the day I have 1000 workers who have all made 2 poairs of shows each. I have 2000 pairs of shoes which I then sell on for &#036;100. In one day I have made, minus the wages of my workes, &#036;128,000. Let us say that 60% of that is my profit giving me on average &#036;76,800 a day to be put into my pocket or into the pockets of the board of directors whiloe my work force take home 1000% less than that. &#036;72. &#036;72 for making &#036;72,000 for some one you dont even know. &#036;72 which then has to be paid out in tax. You need to buy food and make your car work. By the end of it you have nohting left because you have used it all to survive, while you boss, who&#39;s only task was to have an idea buys luxury yachts of the sweat of these workers. Like parasites they use and exploit the workers because they can...because it that 66% of the world didnt go and sell their labour for &#036;8 and hour they would die.

This is the world we live in. This is the world your county subscribes too and in fact gloryfies. This is why you are oppressed and it is wrong. Plain god damn wrong.

[Y2A]

How many hispanics are on the supreme court? How many hispanics are in the cabinet? How many hispanics are running the security forces in the US? How many hispanics are on the Joint Cheifs of Staff? How many hispanics control the huge powerful lobbys? How many hispanics control the huge buisness interests in the US?........... <_<

I already explained that, if you can&#39;t rationalize that is not my fault. And the fact is that the number has risen since the early immigration of hispanics to the United States and it will continue to rise since a democracy represents the people and the people are becoming more and more diverse.


The quesiton of oppression that is in the minds of the people on this board is not just racial oppression but economic oppression. Or exploitation. The american system. Indeed the system in all western countries, if not the world, operate on a basis of indevidual greed.

Yes, we are all greedy individuals, it has nothing to do with trying to avoid the state abusing it&#39;s power through communism or nothing to do with with the fact that we want the freedom to make our own choices.


One thousand people are working in this factory. They work 9 hours a day for &#036;8 an hour. Each worker makes 2 pairs of shoes a day. At the end of the day I have 1000 workers who have all made 2 poairs of shows each. I have 2000 pairs of shoes which I then sell on for &#036;100. In one day I have made, minus the wages of my workes, &#036;128,000. Let us say that 75% of that is my profit giving me on average &#036;76,800 a day to be put into my pocket or into the pockets of the board of directors whiloe my work force take home 1000% less than that. &#036;72. &#036;72 for making &#036;72,000 for some one you dont even know. &#036;72 which then has to be paid out in tax. You need to buy food and make your car work. By the end of it you have nohting left because you have used it all to survive, while you boss, who&#39;s only task was to have an idea buys luxury yachts of the sweat of these workers. Like parasites they use and exploit the workers because they can...because it that 66% of the world didnt go and sell their labour for &#036;8 and hour they would die.

Of course this is a case of capitalism gone wrong but what is the alternative? The worker not being able to work because the communist drove out all the corporations and shut out the country from the global economy.

[LSD]

As I said I do not always agree with U.S foreign policy and whenever the U.S changes a democratically ellected president like Allende I will always oppose it. But face it I am right, if we did support the Shia uprising and created another reguime that oppressed the Sunnis instead of the Shia&#39;s you would blame us instead of saying what many of you say now.

How about you stop "supporting" regimes and get the hell out of other countries. The arrogance of your assumption that the United Statess had to have supported one side or another is staggering. If the US had not interfered at all, it would not be a question. Besides, will you get off the Shia revolt and look at what the US had done to the rest of the world. The fact that you can justify some US actions does not mitigate the rest.



Yes, it&#39;s always propaganda. Everything is propaganda, I won&#39;t even respond to such a bias post.


Fine, don&#39;t address, but the fact remains that there is an active campaign by the US to recruit nations into their "free market economy." They are quite open about it. This is not a conspiracy theory, this is a self-avowed foreign policy objective, and the point is it is predicated on the mythology that without membership in the American global market one is doomed.



I am hispanic. I am not being oppressed. Why do you think that you are standing up for me? Maybe if you would just think rationally you would realize that the reason this is so is because many hispanics come here as immigrants and thus many can do not make enough immediatly to have the ability to run for office and thus must work so that his future generations have that opportunity. And also the fact that this country is 80% white. But of course you leave out the facts just judge and not even consider that I myself am a minority from a working class family. And if you want to bring up race-based AA I am against it, however I am for class based AA.

75 percent of Americans are white. So.... there have been 43 presidents, so there should have been at least one right.... no? wait OK, how about the top 100 richest americans, surely 25% of them are non white.... oh... well the supreme court has 11% that&#39;s sort of close.....
Racial oppression has gotten better in the past two hundred years, but it is still very much there.



many hispanics come here as immigrants and thus many can do not make enough immediatly to have the ability to run for office and thus must work so that his future generations have that opportunity


That statement demonstrates perfectly that the US is not a democracy. You are saying that only the rich can run, therefore only the rich will win, therefore only the rich will rule. Capitalism is intrinsically ademocratic, and you clearly know it.

[Y2A]

How about you stop "supporting" regimes and get the hell out of other countries. The arrogance of your assumption that the United Statess had to have supported one side or another is staggering. If the US had not interfered at all, it would not be a question. Besides, will you get off the Shia revolt and look at what the US had done to the rest of the world. The fact that you can justify some US actions does not mitigate the rest.

I am actually quite for a more non-interventalist approach in our foriegn policy, but of course being a capitalist you assume things due to your bias. And I do not recall saying I support all U.S actions so why assume so?


75 percent of Americans are white. So.... there have been 43 presidents, so there should have been at least one right.... no? wait OK, how about the top 100 richest americans, surely 25% of them are non white.... oh... well the supreme court has 11% that&#39;s sort of close.....
Racial oppression has gotten better in the past two hundred years, but it is still very much there.

What oppression? The fact is that no matter how much you ***** you can&#39;t force equality. People have to want to vote for a canidate. They were democratically ellected. Deal with it.


That statement demonstrates perfectly that the US is not a democracy. You are saying that only the rich can run, therefore only the rich will win, therefore only the rich will win. Capitalism is intrinsically ademocratic, and you know it.

Yes, because we all know that the in every other system other then capitalism you can be dirt poor and have a legit shot at the presidency. That will never happen. Not in communism, nor in any other form of government. Accept it and try to find a way inwhich your average person can become richer and have the ability to represent the people.

[LSD]

Yes, because we all know that the in every other system other then capitalism you can be dirt poor and have a legit shot at the presidency. That will never happen. Not in communism, nor in any other form of government. Accept it and try to find a way inwhich your average person can become richer and have the ability to represent the people.


You seem to missing the concept of equality. Why sould I accept inequality instead of fighting for freedom? There is no reason that I shouldn&#39;t be able to be "dirt poor and have a legit shot at the presidency," that is the goddamn point. You WANT the "dirt poor" to have the same power as the filthy rich.



What oppression? The fact is that no matter how much you ***** you can&#39;t force equality. People have to want to vote for a canidate. They were democratically ellected. Deal with it.


Democractically?? Again, as you yourself admitted, " you [can&#39;t] be dirt poor and have a legit shot at the presidency," so what you&#39;re saying is that you can democratically vote for one of the white men with the money or one of the other white men with the money. That is not democracy it is oppression, no, wait, it&#39;s capitalism.



I am actually quite for a more non-interventalist approach in our foriegn policy, but of course being a capitalist you assume things due to your bias. And I do not recall saying I support all U.S actions so why assume so?


The question was why the US is picked on. One of the reasons is the disgusting things they have done in the world.
But back to you, a "non-interventalist approach" as you say, would mean pulling out American corporations and tha would mean the collapse of the American economic empire, which I doubt you would support. So don&#39;t claim to be "non-interventionist." Neoliberalism is based in interventionism, and as long as you are a capitalist so are you.

[Y2A]

Why do you have this concept that all capitalist are for war and poverty. It&#39;s ridiculous. I&#39;m probablly poorer then most of you guys on this board that thinks they are trying to "save" me from oppression. The fact is that there never will be a utopian world like you think there can be, and until you realize that unfortunate fact of life then I can&#39;t say anything to convince you that I&#39;m not an "evil capitalist" but rather a realist. Now go back to your computer you bought from the same corporations you oppose as evil in your suburban home, you fake communist.

[LSD]

If you say you aren&#39;t for war and poverty, I&#39;ll believe it, but you&#39;re supporting a system that produces that and that alone.



he fact is that there never will be a utopian world like you think there can be, and until you realize that unfortunate fact of life then I can&#39;t say anything to convince you that I&#39;m not an "evil capitalist" but rather a realist


Realism is too often a cover for defeatism. If you don&#39;t try to change the system it will never change.
The world I am talking about it not a utopia, it is a potential. It is what we could do. I can&#39;t say if it will happen, I just know it should. And at least I have that, at least I have a conception of what the world could be. What do you have? realism? apathy? acceptance? Billions are starving right now because of capitalism, and you want me to accept it as a "fact of life."


"gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practice,"
you&#39;re worse than a stalinist, at least a stalinist is fighting for something.

You know why the world is the way it is? Apathy, acceptance. Once something has become a "fact of life" it won&#39;t go away without a long and terrible fight. Slavery was a "fact of life," it was a ten thousand year old industry, it was a staple of society, and it bennefited many. And now it&#39;s gone. Times change and facts change and eventually societies change. If we have learnt anything from our past it is that no society will last forever.

But it&#39;s good to know you&#39;re a realist.

[Y2A]

If you say you aren&#39;t for war and poverty, I&#39;ll believe it, but you&#39;re supporting a system that produces that and that alone.

You know I could be ignorant like you and say the same thing due to the fact that many of you support FARC and other organizations that kill innocent people in the name of communist revolution but I&#39;ll be a nice guy and won&#39;t. What you said is the equivolent of me saying that if you support the russian revolution that you support the Stalin.


Billions are starving right now because of capitalism, and you want me to accept it as a "fact of life."

Billions of people would be starving despite capitalism. It&#39;s a fact of life. Deal with it.


"gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practice,"
you&#39;re worse than a stalinist, at least a stalinist is fighting for something.

Nice quote, here is a better one. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"



Slavery was a "fact of life," it was a ten thousand year old industry, it was a staple of society, and it bennefited many.

The fact that you compare the capitalist system to slavery shows you bias. See like I said before I can admit the flaws in the capitalist system unlike you with your utopian ludicrous wetdream of communism.


But it&#39;s good to know you&#39;re a realist.

But it&#39;s good to know that you think that you can actually have a real impact. Please the world doesn&#39;t work that way. If you want to make a change give to charity or found your own charity, don&#39;t be foolish and think you can force equality. It doesn&#39;t work that way and never will. Even if it did we would have no advancements in technology, medicine, etc... why would you want to live in a world without change and hope.

[Pingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 03:30 PM
Now go back to your computer you bought from the same corporations you oppose as evil in your suburban home, you fake communist.
you have a point there, die hard leftish shouldnot have a computer

because when you buy one, you support the capitalists

i have concluded i am not a die-hard :P

[Y2A]

Originally posted by Pingu+Jan 3 2004, 04:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pingu @ Jan 3 2004, 04:05 PM)
[email protected] 3 2004, 03:30 PM
Now go back to your computer you bought from the same corporations you oppose as evil in your suburban home, you fake communist.
you have a point there, die hard leftish shouldnot have a computer

because when you buy one, you support the capitalists

i have concluded i am not a die-hard :P [/b]
:) That&#39;s good. It&#39;s never good to be a "die-hard" anything.

[Pingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 03:55 PM



Billions are starving right now because of capitalism, and you want me to accept it as a "fact of life."

Billions of people would be starving despite capitalism. It&#39;s a fact of life. Deal with it.


If there were no imperalism, they would be less people starving.

If Europe countries never had come to Africa, America (north and south), asia en australia, they people would be happier. They wouldnot have been exploited by the western countries...

So when there is no imperalism, there were not billions of people starving
Because then, the natives still be living there old lifes and would be a lot happier

[LSD]

why would you want to live in a world without change and hope.


Who&#39;s living in that world? I who dreams of change, or you who accepts the present.



It doesn&#39;t work that way and never will. Even if it did we would have no advancements in technology, medicine, etc...


um.....right......because only capitalists can make medecine.......



Billions of people would be starving despite capitalism. It&#39;s a fact of life. Deal with it.


No. There are very few things that are true "facts of life", when it comes to society, there are practically none. There is absolutely no physical, scientific, agricultural, transportaion, geographic, biological, or biochemical reason why every living person on this planet cannot sustain themselves. They are prevented by defects of society. Defects we must rectify, defects you suggest we accept as "facts of life."



ou know I could be ignorant like you and say the same thing due to the fact that many of you support FARC and other organizations that kill innocent people in the name of communist revolution but I&#39;ll be a nice guy and won&#39;t. What you said is the equivolent of me saying that if you support the russian revolution that you support the Stalin.


Thanks for being a nice guy,it&#39;s appreciated. But what you&#39;re missing is that I&#39;m not saying that fighting for capitalism causes war and poverty but that capitalism causes war and poverty. And while fighting for communism is difficult and arduous, the end result is not war and poverty, but liberty and equality.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by Pingu+Jan 3 2004, 04:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pingu @ Jan 3 2004, 04:10 PM)
[email protected] 3 2004, 03:55 PM



Billions are starving right now because of capitalism, and you want me to accept it as a "fact of life."

Billions of people would be starving despite capitalism. It&#39;s a fact of life. Deal with it.


If there were no imperalism, they would be less people starving.

If Europe countries never had come to Africa, America (north and south), asia en australia, they people would be happier. They wouldnot have been exploited by the western countries...

So when there is no imperalism, there were not billions of people starving
Because then, the natives still be living there old lifes and would be a lot happier [/b]
So because I&#39;m for regulated capitalism, I&#39;m for imperialsim now???

[JustSoul]

There is absolutely no physical, scientific, agricultural, transportaion, geographic, biological, or biochemical reason why every living person on this planet cannot sustain themselves.

Sure there is. And its a simple fact that by rewarding everyone with food,cloth,house etc , even those that dont work at all , you are killing any will and desire to work.

[Pingu]

Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 3 2004, 04:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 3 2004, 04:16 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 04:10 PM

[email protected] 3 2004, 03:55 PM



Billions are starving right now because of capitalism, and you want me to accept it as a "fact of life."

Billions of people would be starving despite capitalism. It&#39;s a fact of life. Deal with it.


If there were no imperalism, they would be less people starving.

If Europe countries never had come to Africa, America (north and south), asia en australia, they people would be happier. They wouldnot have been exploited by the western countries...

So when there is no imperalism, there were not billions of people starving
Because then, the natives still be living there old lifes and would be a lot happier
So because I&#39;m for regulated capitalism, I&#39;m for imperialsim now??? [/b]
i think imperalism is caused by capitalism :rolleyes:

[LSD]

There is absolutely no physical, scientific, agricultural, transportaion, geographic, biological, or biochemical reason why every living person on this planet cannot sustain themselves.
Sure there is.

and that would be......



And its a simple fact that by rewarding everyone with food,cloth,house etc , even those that dont work at all , you are killing any will and desire to work.

No it isn&#39;t. Don&#39;t declare things to be facts simply because they happen to fit with your mindset.

[Y2A]

Who&#39;s living in that world? I who dreams of change, or you who accepts the present.

I mean change in medicine and other advances that would better us. That is the kind of changes I am talking about, Communism does not allow this because of the extreme effort to share the wealth. Thus no change.


um.....right......because only capitalists can make medecine.......

You need money to make medicine. Don&#39;t you get that? In your effort to create utopia you&#39;d hurt advancements in these fields. This is why they say that communist are not materialistic and while I personally think that not being materialistic is a great thing sometimes it is neccessary, especailly for advancements in things such as medicine.


No. There are very few things that are true "facts of life", when it comes to society, there are practically none. There is absolutely no physical, scientific, agricultural, transportaion, geographic, biological, or biochemical reason why every living person on this planet cannot sustain themselves. They are prevented by defects of society. Defects we must rectify, defects you suggest we accept as "facts of life."

And in your effort to change this you will hurt it even more by cutting nations off from the global economy.


Thanks for being a nice guy,it&#39;s appreciated. But what you&#39;re missing is that I&#39;m not saying that fighting for capitalism causes war and poverty but that capitalism causes war and poverty. And while fighting for communism is difficult and arduous, the end result is not war and poverty, but liberty and equality.

Have you ever heard of the Khmer Rouge??? Or one of the other vast amounts of revolutions in which communism has failed??? Communism does not bring liberty or equality but rather promises so and due to flaws in it&#39;s system leads to a totalitarian state.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 04:19 PM
i think imperalism is caused by capitalism :rolleyes:
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is not. I am man enough to admit the downfalls of capitalism unlike my counterparts. But the things you mentioned had nothing to do with capitalism.

[Pingu]

Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 3 2004, 04:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 3 2004, 04:26 PM)
[email protected] 3 2004, 04:19 PM
i think imperalism is caused by capitalism :rolleyes:
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is not. I am man enough to admit the downfalls of capitalism unlike my counterparts. But the things you mentioned had nothing to do with capitalism. [/b]
it does have to do with western policies (a long time a go it started, now it continues)

[Y2A]

Originally posted by Pingu+Jan 3 2004, 04:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pingu @ Jan 3 2004, 04:33 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 04:26 PM

[email protected] 3 2004, 04:19 PM
i think imperalism is caused by capitalism :rolleyes:
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is not. I am man enough to admit the downfalls of capitalism unlike my counterparts. But the things you mentioned had nothing to do with capitalism.
it does have to do with western policies (a long time a go it started, now it continues) [/b]
No it doesn&#39;t, what the hell are you talking about.

[LSD]

alright this is it because you clearly are refusing to understand....

1.the examples you mention are not communist, they just claimed to be
2.You don&#39;t need money for medicine, you need doctors, researchers, scientists. You only need money from within a capitalist framework
3.the global economy is a myth. it is a collection of powerfull corporations. it is not bennicial to join. which of the leading nations in the world today had a "global economy" around them when developing? Which of them practiced the policies they now enforce on others?
4.you are clearly not understanding what communism is. It is not the state capitalism of the USSR or the blatant capitalism of China. Look, before you critisize the system, look it up. it is achievable and it is preferable.


P.S. insofar as imperialism, notice that it is the same people who control the world. Instead of prefects and viceroys, they are CEOs and presidents, funny how they&#39;re still all white and racially european......

[Y2A]

1.the examples you mention are not communist, they just claimed to be

Because of the Marxist and Maoist ideology, while it was in good intention, led many states into a trangresssion from true socialist states to totalitarian states.


2.You don&#39;t need money for medicine, you need doctors, researchers, scientists. You only need money from within a capitalist framework

Yes, you do. Do you have any clue how the economy works?


3.the global economy is a myth. it is a collection of powerfull corporations. it is not bennicial to join. which of the leading nations in the world today had

It doesn matter if you choose to believe it or not. The fact remains that those who choose to go by the way of the free market do get better economies.


4.you are clearly not understanding what communism is. It is not the state capitalism of the USSR or the blatant capitalism of China. Look, before you critisize the system, look it up. it is achievable and it is preferable

I have said that I know that the USSR and other so-called "socialist" states were not truely socialist but what you fail to realize is that they all eventually lead to totalitarian states due to the fact that you are giving full power to the government.



Anyway I&#39;m out. I&#39;ll talk to you guys later. Bye

[The Feral Underclass]

Y2A


if you can&#39;t rationalize that is not my fault.

Rationalize what?


And the fact is that the number has risen since the early immigration of hispanics to the United States

Liberalism gone mad&#33; The fact is that hispanics and blacks should be given the same rights as white people. There should be no waiting around and sitting on the fence so you don&#39;t upset people. Instead of berating the efforts of a straight white male system, why dont you demand the system justify itself? Why is the system not equal?


it will continue to rise since a democracy represents the people and the people are becoming more and more diverse.

Your ideas about democracy are very strange. What democracy allows people to rig elections? Democracy is about national participation. Democracy is about recalling officials if you do not agree with them. Democracy is not voting every four years for people who are exactly the same and will fuck you over just like the last lot did.


we are all greedy individuals

No we are not&#33; If that was the case why do we have doctors and teachers? Why do we have humanitarian organizations and people who go out and give to the homeless?

For those who are greedy ask yourself why? Because we all have some inherent greedy gene? This is not true as I have demonstrated above. If it was there would be no good in the world at all. Greed exists because the system we live under expects human beings to behave like that. Capitalism forces people to be competetive. We are socially conditioned to be greedy&#33;


it has nothing to do with trying to avoid the state abusing it&#39;s power through communism or nothing to do with with the fact that we want the freedom to make our own choices.

You need to read a book about communism mate&#33; Since when has communism advocated a state? Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and all the others are not and have never been communist countries.

Communism is a social theory which advocates a statless, non governmental, non hierarchial society where people work to their ability and recieve according to what they need. This means that society is organized into socially necessary work. Each of us does a certain amount of work a week, say 10 hours, and are provided for with everything we need. Freeing our time to persue our lives, instead of being forced to sell our labour to fat cats in order to survive.

It&#39;s embarresing that people can be so uncritical, so brainwashed. You come on this board believing you understand what we all think. Not just you but others do the same. You dont come here being inquisitive or interested. You come here believeing you have it all worked out. You seem to think all us communists all march around waving at stalins picture dreaming of the day we can control everyones lives. Ignorance, pure ignorance and makes me angry. Get your facts straight before you start making wild accusations about things you clearly no nothing about&#33;


Of course this is a case of capitalism gone wrong

This is what capitalism is. Look at any business, it is all the same. Bosses employing workers to make money. It&#39;s the nature of capitalism. It dosnt look pretty does it&#33;


what is the alternative?

We, the workers, control the means of production. We make the wealth, we make the world go around. Without the workers the entire world would collapse, except we are the ones who get shit on. We are the ones who have nothing. We must be content with our lot in life while others get rich from our hard work. What is the alternative? To take control. This is our world not theres, we make this world what it is and we deserve to have our share.

Look at everyday life. If your brother made some food and had spent two hours slaving away to make himself a nice cooked meal and you came in and ate it would that be acceptable. No&#33; But yet people who claim to weild so much power can force us to work like dogs and recieve all the benifits and we just let it happen. We stamp it, package it and call it reality. We create systems and governments to protect it and battle on. Fed up, angry, disaffected. We put up with wars and starvation. We put up with repressive laws that restrict our human rights. Our basic needs are packaged and commercialised. Heat, food and water is sold to us at a price so our hard earn cash is given back to these parasites just so we can be warm and so we can eat.

What is the alternative? The alternative is to smash this fucking system without any sentimentality. Without any liberal cowardice and take back what is, above all, rightfully ours. Fuck capitalism and fuck the ruling class&#33;&#33;&#33;


The worker not being able to work because the communist drove out all the corporations and shut out the country from the global economy.

Once again you have asserted an oppinion as if it were fact. Do you honestly believe that we can only survive with corporations and big business?

Society would be based on needs rather than wants. We need water and food so we organize ourselves, all of us to do a certain amount of socially necessary work which means for ten hours a week work every single person in society is provided for.

It means that we can pursue our wants freely, without having to worry about were our meal is coming from, how we are going to pay our rent. We can make art and make films-. We can write a book or invent a new CD player. We can be a professor and a clothes maker. We can live without being in fear of starving or being homeless. Is this really too much to ask for...?

[Y2A]

Liberalism gone mad&#33; The fact is that hispanics and blacks should be given the same rights as white people. There should be no waiting around and sitting on the fence so you don&#39;t upset people. Instead of berating the efforts of a straight white male system, why dont you demand the system justify itself? Why is the system not equal?

I AM AN IMMIGRANT. I am for more immigration. I think it should be easier to get to this country legally and it should not matter what country you are from as long as you are willing to work, that is capitalist thought. What the conservatives think about it is nationalist thought.


Your ideas about democracy are very strange. What democracy allows people to rig elections? Democracy is about national participation. Democracy is about recalling officials if you do not agree with them. Democracy is not voting every four years for people who are exactly the same and will fuck you over just like the last lot did.

Yes because I am obviously for rigging elections. I have no clue were you got that from


No we are not&#33; If that was the case why do we have doctors and teachers? Why do we have humanitarian organizations and people who go out and give to the homeless?

For those who are greedy ask yourself why? Because we all have some inherent greedy gene? This is not true as I have demonstrated above. If it was there would be no good in the world at all. Greed exists because the system we live under expects human beings to behave like that. Capitalism forces people to be competetive. We are socially conditioned to be greedy&#33;

I was not serious. It was a sarcastic statement because you called all capitalist "greedy individuals" and thus I said that.



You need to read a book about communism mate&#33; Since when has communism advocated a state? Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and all the others are not and have never been communist countries.

Communism is a social theory which advocates a statless, non governmental, non hierarchial society where people work to their ability and recieve according to what they need. This means that society is organized into socially necessary work. Each of us does a certain amount of work a week, say 10 hours, and are provided for with everything we need. Freeing our time to persue our lives, instead of being forced to sell our labour to fat cats in order to survive.

It&#39;s embarresing that people can be so uncritical, so brainwashed. You come on this board believing you understand what we all think. Not just you but others do the same. You dont come here being inquisitive or interested. You come here believeing you have it all worked out. You seem to think all us communists all march around waving at stalins picture dreaming of the day we can control everyones lives. Ignorance, pure ignorance and makes me angry. Get your facts straight before you start making wild accusations about things you clearly no nothing about&#33;

I never said they were true communist nations. I said that they became so do to thought of a utopian world. Either way this leads to no advancements in fields of medicine, techonology, etc....


We, the workers, control the means of production. We make the wealth, we make the world go around. Without the workers the entire world would collapse, except we are the ones who get shit on. We are the ones who have nothing. We must be content with our lot in life while others get rich from our hard work. What is the alternative? To take control. This is our world not theres, we make this world what it is and we deserve to have our share.

Look at everyday life. If your brother made some food and had spent two hours slaving away to make himself a nice cooked meal and you came in and ate it would that be acceptable. No&#33; But yet people who claim to weild so much power can force us to work like dogs and recieve all the benifits and we just let it happen. We stamp it, package it and call it reality. We create systems and governments to protect it and battle on. Fed up, angry, disaffected. We put up with wars and starvation. We put up with repressive laws that restrict our human rights. Our basic needs are packaged and commercialised. Heat, food and water is sold to us at a price so our hard earn cash is given back to these parasites just so we can be warm and so we can eat.

What is the alternative? The alternative is to smash this fucking system without any sentimentality. Without any liberal cowardice and take back what is, above all, rightfully ours. Fuck capitalism and fuck the ruling class&#33;&#33;&#33;

I come from a working class family. I am not part of the so-called "ruling class" but someday do to hard work will be, see that is how capitalism works. Deal with it.


Once again you have asserted an oppinion as if it were fact. Do you honestly believe that we can only survive with corporations and big business?

Society would be based on needs rather than wants. We need water and food so we organize ourselves, all of us to do a certain amount of socially necessary work which means for ten hours a week work every single person in society is provided for.

It means that we can pursue our wants freely, without having to worry about were our meal is coming from, how we are going to pay our rent. We can make art and make films-. We can write a book or invent a new CD player. We can be a professor and a clothes maker. We can live without being in fear of starving or being homeless. Is this really too much to ask for...?

But your forgeting the good things that come with capitalism aswell. Advanced medicine being one good example. And you act as if capitalism creates poverty, face it poverty will always an aspect of every day life. Stop trying to blame capitalism for it.



Anyway I&#39;m out bye.

[Hate Is Art]

DEAL WITH IT&#33;&#33; FUCK OFF&#33;&#33; I DON&#39;T HAVE TO DEAL WITH ANYTHING LET ALONE POVERTY OR THE RULING CLASS SCREWING OVER THE WORKERS&#33;


Medicine can still be got without money, you seem to have no idea of how a scoiety can function without money this alone proves you are ignorant.

Im also unsure as how Capitilism has advanced medical and if Capitlist countries care so much for it then how come they don&#39;t all have free medical services? Some of you logic just doesn&#39;t work.

[yeahjim]

communist advocates claim they support freedom for all, which capitalism destroys for all but the "fat cats" at the top.

but i ask you then- is it freedom to tell me that i can never earn more money than my neighbor? how about a hypothetical-

let us assume that i score significantly higher on him on all forms of standardized intelligence tests.

let us assume that i have a much stronger work ethic, and am WILLING, in fact WANT to put in much more time at work, over and beyond the across the board 10 (or whatever number) hours a week the communism ideology would have everyone do- becuase I am simply driven to work hard.

let us assume that i possess special extraordinary talents (musical, artistic, etc) that are considered valuable by human society.

why then should my success, as a very intelligent, driven, and gifted individual, be limited to the same success that my less intelligent, lazier, and non-gifted neighbor will achieve?

should i not have the right to make full use of my gifts and willingness to work hard in order to improve my financial situation?

pound for pound, a single doctor contributes more to society&#39;s well being than a single bricklayer. i know that i would much rather live in a country that lacked bricklayers than a country that lacked doctors. do you advocate paying them the same?

the logic seems very lacking to me, please explain it.

[Ferdinand]

Hi&#33; :)

Okay, so here&#39;s what I&#39;m getting. Basically, your guys&#39; definition of communism is a world-wide type-thing with no sort of heirarchy/caste system in which EVERYONE works the same amount each day and gets a set amount in return - that is, enough to get by. Hate to get geeky, but this is prtty much teh "Star Trek" version of earth. No money and everybody&#39;s equal.

My question is, if EVERYONE works the same amount each day, then who is there left to organize it all? Who&#39;s left to keep order? You&#39;d need a group of people that know what they&#39;re doing, as well as what everyone else is doing, as well as the ability to organize it all (IE "power"). Then, you get a police force. These people&#39;s jobs are to roam the streets, righting wrongs and protecting the innocent form the not-innocent. So, they would have certain rights that others didn&#39;t (Perhaps the right to bear arms, as an example... I&#39;m sure you can think of a different one that applies). Thus, this would put the organizers and police on a higher level than the standard citizen, which is as far as I understand, completely anticommunist.

Now, before you say something like "if we&#39;re all equal then we wouldn&#39;t need a police force because everyone would be content with what they have," Let me say that that&#39;s BS. Yeahjim gave a great example; not everyone is equal, as far as their things go. Genuine equality has a special name. I like to call it a "Hive mind."

You want equality? Become a drone. Don&#39;t strive to do your best, if you&#39;re satisfied with just living. That is what communism is, when you get right down to it.

The thing about capitalism (or at least the US) is that it is possible for those who make a genuine effort, to become what they want to be. healthcare isn&#39;t free, sure. However, basic education is. With an education, you can earn money, take out a loan, go to college, get a higher degree of learning, and make what you will of yourself. In communism, I don&#39;t see this as quite as possible. If you have communism, then you&#39;d have to force equality because I don&#39;t think that people would limit themselves willingly.

[The Feral Underclass]

Y2A


I AM AN IMMIGRANT. I am for more immigration. I think it should be easier to get to this country legally and it should not matter what country you are from as long as you are willing to work, that is capitalist thought. What the conservatives think about it is nationalist thought.

You addressed none of the comments I raised. If that was what capitalism "thought" then why is it not the case, since we all live in a capitalism society.&#39;


Yes because I am obviously for rigging elections. I have no clue were you got that from

Thank you for not addressing any of the issues raised. You claim the US to be a democracy. I am telling you how can it be a democracy if presidential nominees can rig elections.

It is also very strange how your ideas about democracy are so limited. So your idea of democracy is voting for some mega rich straight white men every four years who will do nothing to help anyone? Is that what democracy is? I think not.


I was not serious. It was a sarcastic statement because you called all capitalist "greedy individuals" and thus I said that.

A very clever evasion. Do you agree that capitalism creates greed?


I never said they were true communist nations.

You have no idea what true communism is&#33;


I said that they became so do to thought of a utopian world.

I have no idea what this is?


Either way this leads to no advancements in fields of medicine, techonology, etc....

There were theoretical and scientific reasons why those countries failed. Fortunatly for the revolutionary left we have the ability to mark our mistakes and move on. Those things wont happen again.

The advancement of medicine and technology will develop as long as human will and ability exists.


I come from a working class family. I am not part of the so-called "ruling class" but someday do to hard work will be, see that is how capitalism works.

After everything I said. After stating fact you respond like this. You have addressed none of the issues I raised. You will never become a part of the ruling class. Why would you want too? Why would you want to become one of those leeches. You may eventually trhough hard work become a member of the middle classes. That&#39;s only if your white bosses dont have other ideas. And as long as you have the financial backing to achieve it.

This is not how capitalism works. If it did, we would all be rich. You&#39;re delusional&#33;


Deal with it.

If only you knew&#33;


But your forgeting the good things that come with capitalism aswell. Advanced medicine being one good example.

Capitalism didnt invent or create those things, human ability did. Capitalism packaged it and sold it for a profit.

In sounthern africa people are dying of aids because these capitalists have patented hiv/aids medicines and refuse to allow countries to make them and sell the cheaply. This means that this invention, these medicines that have been created to help people are bieng denied to thse who need it the most just because capitalists can not make money from it. That is what capitalism has achieved. Greed. Outright selfish, brutal greed. Look at the world around you. Why do you think these things happen. What is the world made on. What is its fundamental yearnings. What is that everyone wants. Money...nothing else. Money. you either need it or want it and achieve these aims the best way you can. You either sell your labour for a few bucks or you exploit those who do to make yourself money. That is the nature of the world. it isnt a lie. it isnt a dream or a commie fantasy, its reality&#33; wake up for fuck sake&#33;&#33;&#33;


you act as if capitalism creates poverty, face it poverty will always an aspect of every day life.

Is this it...is this the best you can come up with. So for absolutly no explination at all you assert that poverty will always exist. Do you not undertstand that something that exists has to have been created from somewhere. You just think poverty sprang out of no where with no explination whatsoever. You are a fool. And a stupid fool at that&#33;


Stop trying to blame capitalism for it.

I dont need to try it vindicates itself all on its own and you have done little to disproof it.

The problem with you liberals is that you dont want to have to think to much. If you just ignore it hopefully it will go away. This is what you people are all about a platform of nothing. Nothing but the half backed praise of a system you turn a blind eye too. Pathetic&#33;


Anyway I&#39;m out bye.

Yeah fuck off and dont come back&#33;

[The Feral Underclass]

yeahjim


is it freedom to tell me that i can never earn more money than my neighbor?

What is it about money that is so important to you?


let us assume that i score significantly higher on him on all forms of standardized intelligence tests.

What does a test like this mean? That you can solve logic better than another person? This has on relevance to creating a fairer society.


let us assume that i have a much stronger work ethic, and am WILLING, in fact WANT to put in much more time at work, over and beyond the across the board 10 (or whatever number) hours a week the communism ideology would have everyone do- becuase I am simply driven to work hard.

For a start you can not analyze a communist society based on the system we live in now. Your strong work ethic is driven by a desire to earn more money. You are not taking into account that some people are drained by this selfish aim. Some people do not have the confidence to attempt to achieve these goals. Sometimes it is easier just to do what you need to to earn the money you need to survive. Society dosnt make life easy for people.

You are missing the point about working in a communist society. The work that you would be doing is socially necessary work. That means that the work you do a week is to make society run in order for people to be provided for. Everyone needs electricity right. Let us say you volutneered or were selected by a collective rota to work a few months in this electricity factory. You go there for ten hours a week, along with fifty other people and you make the electricity run. Everyone is provided for with electricity and in return for your services to society you recieve what you need. A house, food, electricity, water, gas etc etc.

Of course human dreams and human abilities will never go away. The question you should ask is, once those ten hours a week are over what can I do? The answer is, if you still desire to work at this electricity station you can work there. If you wish to paint a picture or design websites then you do that. The rest of your time is devoted to your own personal desires and wants and because you do not have to worry about food and electricity and paying your rent the feeling of freedom will be overwhelming. You can achieve anything, because you do not have to live in constant fear of eviction or starvation.

Your desire to work hard is not restricted, but it is diverted towards things that you want to achieve.


why then should my success, as a very intelligent, driven, and gifted individual, be limited to the same success that my less intelligent, lazier, and non-gifted neighbor will achieve?

You should use your intelligence to do what ever you want. If this lazier neighbour cares not for being intelligent or playing a musical instrument it does not mean he should be excluded from society because of it. As long as he contributes to the running of society he will be provided for, and what he does with the rest of his time is his own concern. He isnt limiting your abilities at all.


should i not have the right to make full use of my gifts and willingness to work hard in order to improve my financial situation?

This is what it comes down too, your own personal financial situation. In communism this will be irrelevant. All your needs will be catered for, just as they should be, and your gifts and willingess to work hard can be concentrated into what ever you desire because you desire to do them. Not because you will earn millions of pounds for it.


pound for pound, a single doctor contributes more to society&#39;s well being than a single bricklayer. i know that i would much rather live in a country that lacked bricklayers than a country that lacked doctors. do you advocate paying them the same?

A doctor is no more important than a brick layer. They have different skills. One is more complicated than the other but both are socially necessary jobs. People should become doctors because they want to save peoles lives. It is sad to think that they do it for the money. Maybe this is sometimes the case. However, in a communist society people will want to become doctors because they want to make a full time and perminant contribution to society and will do it out of a love for humanity. Gaining financial rewards will be irrelevant. The doctor will use their skill to help people and for their contribution will be provided for.

The difference between being a doctor and being a brick layer is that the brick layer works only 10 hours and goes onto build moterbikes and race them in his spare time. The doctor&#39;s life is that 10 hours of work and their past time. They have trained to be a doctor because that is what they want to be forever, constantly. It is a choice they have made with their lives, just as the brick layer has chosen to be a brick layer and race moterbikes.

[JustSoul]

My personal financial situation will always be important. Ok imagine everyone is equal. It doesnt mean you can get all you want. It actually means you will get less then an average person get today in USA. Why? Because i for sure wont work in comunism as hard(if at all) as in capitalism.

So that comes to a point.... What if i want more then a provided average? What if i want to own a damn personal plane. Cant i do it?

Oh and can i contribute to society by playing video games? Or hmm.... Writing stupid poems that noone but me likes? If not who is going to control which poems are stupid and which are not.

Also you need some sort of goverment. Its granted... In democracy there are tools of controling it. In communism there are none. What about that?

[The Feral Underclass]

Ferdinand

Most of the things you raised in your post I addressed in the answer to yeahjim


Who&#39;s left to keep order? You&#39;d need a group of people that know what they&#39;re doing, as well as what everyone else is doing, as well as the ability to organize it all (IE "power").

Why do we have a communist society? Because the working class have understood what capitalism is and how it can be different. They have then fought to change it and used communist principles to establish this new society.

Imagine a nation broken down into areas. Each area is broken down into collectives. Factories, water stations, electricity stations are collectivised. Each area collective operates how it chooses, without a central command and a hierarchy. Maybe there are different people taking different responsabilities. One person is responsable for getting milk, another for electricity supplies. Each person reports back the work they have done every week to the collective assembly which is voluntary and problems and solutions are discussed.

The responsability areas can be worked out using demarchy or on a simple rota basis depending on how the collecive wanted to run things.

The factory collectives etc run pretty much on the same basis except they are a production collective rather than a collective where people live ie an area. Again responsabilities are handed out using demarchy, national rota basis or simply volunteers. Each week the factory or whatever comes together in a workers assembly and discussing the problems of the week and debate solutions democratically without a central authority or a hierarchy.

There is no need to a hierarchy or a central organization system to achieve your goals. At the collective assembly everyone is given a responsability, you fulfil it and then you report back to the assembly.

It&#39;s very simple.


"if we&#39;re all equal then we wouldn&#39;t need a police force because everyone would be content with what they have,"

You are looking at it in the conext of the present society. Communist society will come about after a fundamental change in the fabric of our existence. This will only happen when there has been mass conciousnes and understanding.

The need for a police force will not exist because the crimes you are considering will not exist. If economic crimes like exploitation attempted to be perpetrated by someone then the collective he belonged to would deal with it.

If there was an attack on a collecive then a workers militia would be organized to defend it. Communist society is completely different to present day society. It must be hard for you to imagine what I can imagine and understand what I understand. Society will be one mass, one unit working together for each other. There will be a new level of maturity and understanding. We will be able to operate differently to the way we do now.

A police force will not exist because it simply wont be necessary.


You want equality? Become a drone. Don&#39;t strive to do your best, if you&#39;re satisfied with just living. That is what communism is, when you get right down to it.

No this isnt what communism is about. How can you assert fact about something you have already admitted you know nothing about. Your idea of equality is all fucked up. When we talk about equality we mean everybody working the same amount and recieving what they need. What you do with your life is your own indevidual desire. What you wish to create out of your life is your choice and is not restricted by economic necessities. Being free from need and having the ability to freely achieve those things you want to achieve out of life is equality.


The thing about capitalism (or at least the US) is that it is possible for those who make a genuine effort, to become what they want to be.

Just as in communism.


With an education, you can earn money, take out a loan, go to college, get a higher degree of learning, and make what you will of yourself.

You should be able to do those things with out paying for them.


If you have communism, then you&#39;d have to force equality because I don&#39;t think that people would limit themselves willingly.

Nobody has to limit themselves. The difference is, is that those desires are achieved freely because you want too, not becase you have too.

[The Feral Underclass]

JustSoul



My personal financial situation will always be important.

Why?


It actually means you will get less then an average person get today in USA. Why? Because i for sure wont work in comunism as hard(if at all) as in capitalism.

That&#39;s because you&#39;re selfish desires completely push out any kind of sensability or compasion. You dont recieve anything less, it means that everyone recieves what they need. Do you need three cars or a fridge that speaks or a &#036;400 toaster. Lets get it into perspective here&#33;

Communism can not be achieved unless evceryone wants it. If they want it and want to make it work, they are going to work hard to make it work. Everyone will work together to achieve this fairer society. Those who dont, dont have too. If they dont contribute anything how will they be able to recieve anything.


So that comes to a point.... What if i want more then a provided average? What if i want to own a damn personal plane. Cant i do it?

Why would you want too own a plane? It&#39;s rediculas.


Oh and can i contribute to society by playing video games? Or hmm.... Writing stupid poems that noone but me likes?

You can do these in your spare time. Your contribution to society must be in socially necessary work. Jobs that need to be done in order to make society function.


Also you need some sort of goverment. Its granted... In democracy there are tools of controling it. In communism there are none. What about that?

There is no government in communism. Collective and workers assemblies decide on appropraite problems etc and responsabilities are divided between that collective.

[JustSoul]

Why?

Because thats what i feel. You cant change without brainwashing me.
That&#39;s because you&#39;re selfish desires completely push out any kind of sensability or compasion. You dont recieve anything less, it means that everyone recieves what they need. Do you need three cars or a fridge that speaks or a &#036;400 toaster. Lets get it into perspective here&#33;

Most people on the planet have those selfish desires.Not much you can do about it. As i have said you will have less then an average american today.And thats not 3 cars and a speaking fridge.Its way less. Personally i want to own a cottege with a decent forest on my land.... 2 Cars , few TVs, a modern computer and enough money to travel every few month.
Communism can not be achieved unless evceryone wants it. If they want it and want to make it work, they are going to work hard to make it work. Everyone will work together to achieve this fairer society. Those who dont, dont have too. If they dont contribute anything how will they be able to recieve anything.
So you actually believe its possible in the near future? Thats what is perfect about human. The diversity. You cant make everyone agree on something... Ever.
Why would you want too own a plane? It&#39;s rediculas.

Really? Flying is a meaning of life for many people. They are as good as dead without a plane. ( Not joking).
You can do these in your spare time. Your contribution to society must be in socially necessary work. Jobs that need to be done in order to make society function.

So writing novels , books and music is not contributing to society?
There is no government in communism. Collective and workers assemblies decide on appropraite problems etc and responsabilities are divided between that collective.

Responsobilities? What if factory A refuses to work. Who is going to enforce anything?

[The Feral Underclass]

JustSoul


Because thats what i feel. You cant change without brainwashing me.

Why do you feel it?


Most people on the planet have those selfish desires.

That&#39;s because their forced too. There are different degrees. Working class people desire survival and maybe a holiday once in a year. The higer the class scale the more the desires. These are changable things. I have worked wth working class people and what they desire is to be free from need.


Personally i want to own a cottege with a decent forest on my land.... 2 Cars , few TVs, a modern computer and enough money to travel every few month.

None of these things are denied you.


So you actually believe its possible in the near future?

Not in the near future. It is difficult to predict, however I do believe this change is inevtibale. Just like the end of feudelism was.


Thats what is perfect about human. The diversity. You cant make everyone agree on something... Ever.

Diversity wont be destroyed. The diversity of personality and indevidualism will still be strong. The diversity for ideas and creation will remain. What people will agree on is that eveyone has the right to be provided for. The working class, and it is only the working class who need to agree with agree at some point. They have done in the past. And as capitalism dives further into crisis consciousness will get bigger and bigger. As long as their is a revolutionary movement giving out these ideas one day the workers will confront capitalism and demand it justyfies itself. Which it wont be able too.


Really? Flying is a meaning of life for many people. They are as good as dead without a plane.

The question you posed was not whether society should have planes but rathe what if you wanted a plane.


So writing novels , books and music is not contributing to society?

Yes they are. They should be things freely available to enjoy and create, but they are things that people can enjoy with the other 158 hours of their week. Writing a book however is not more important that providing food, which will account for 10 hours work a week.


Responsobilities? What if factory A refuses to work. Who is going to enforce anything?

Why would the workers have subscribed to communism, destroyed capitalism, created a communist society and then decided not to make it work.....people wont refuse. Why would they? Any problems that exist will be dealt with within the collective.

You have to get out of the mind frame of the present day society. Communist society will be a whole different thing.

[JustSoul]

Why do you feel it?


Because it saves my time.Because it makes my life more comfortable.Because i can travel around the world and have fun.

That&#39;s because their forced too. There are different degrees. Working class people desire survival and maybe a holiday once in a year. The higer the class scale the more the desires. These are changable things. I have worked wth working class people and what they desire is to be free from need.


Thats because people desire what they dont have. Give those working people all they are asking for and they will want more.

None of these things are denied you.


Sure they are. Its way above what average american has and so communist wont be able to support it.

Not in the near future. It is difficult to predict, however I do believe this change is inevtibale. Just like the end of feudelism was

Change is inevtibale but it wont be to communism.

Diversity wont be destroyed. The diversity of personality and indevidualism will still be strong. The diversity for ideas and creation will remain. What people will agree on is that eveyone has the right to be provided for. The working class, and it is only the working class who need to agree with agree at some point. They have done in the past. And as capitalism dives further into crisis consciousness will get bigger and bigger. As long as their is a revolutionary movement giving out these ideas one day the workers will confront capitalism and demand it justyfies itself. Which it wont be able too.


What if i dont agree on "that everyone has the right to be provided for". What if i think hard working and talented people should get more then lazy fools?

The question you posed was not whether society should have planes but rathe what if you wanted a plane.

You missunderstood me. Some people cant leave without having a personal small plane.Or at least they wont be happy without it.

Yes they are. They should be things freely available to enjoy and create, but they are things that people can enjoy with the other 158 hours of their week. Writing a book however is not more important that providing food, which will account for 10 hours work a week.


10 hours is a week is laughable.Its not even enough to suit basic needs. And if you have a 40hours working week you dont have much time left to write a book.

Why would the workers have subscribed to communism, destroyed capitalism, created a communist society and then decided not to make it work.....people wont refuse. Why would they? Any problems that exist will be dealt with within the collective.


What if they will? Lets kids grow up and they do not agree to communism.Do they have a right to not agree? Dealt within collective? How is that....

[Bradyman]

What if i dont agree on "that everyone has the right to be provided for". What if i think hard working and talented people should get more then lazy fools?


What if I want slavery, what if I want to kill all the women? Surely no one will agree with you. It seems natural that everyone has the necessities to live. If you don&#39;t work, you aren&#39;t going to get anything. The idea is that, over time, people will work because they want to, there will no longer be those "lazy fools."


You want equality? Become a drone. Don&#39;t strive to do your best, if you&#39;re satisfied with just living. That is what communism is, when you get right down to it.


Why does everyone always believe that the only difference between people is what&#39;s in their pocketbooks. It&#39;s as if money creates diversity. Take a look at the people who have the same amount of money as you, look how different you guys are.

This statement baffles me. Why, then, do we have Red Cross doctors in third world countries rather than out in LA working with plastic surgery? People don&#39;t do everything for money&#33; If there is any indication that people strive to do their best without the reward of wealth take a look at all those doctors or charitable orginazations.

The problem is that you are so caught up with the fact that money is everything. Prehaps in this society it is. But under communism it won&#39;t be. I know it&#39;s not going to be easy getting there, but it is necessary.

Times change. Centuries ago, people based their actions for their duty to god, now people base their actions for money, maybe in the future people will base their actions on merit.

[The Feral Underclass]

Because it saves my time.Because it makes my life more comfortable.Because i can travel around the world and have fun.

But that&#39;s the point. You dont need money to have these things.


Thats because people desire what they dont have. Give those working people all they are asking for and they will want more.

But that&#39;s not a bad thing. Human desire is a good thing, but we should be working together to achieve it.


Its way above what average american has and so communist wont be able to support it.

Such as what?


Change is inevtibale but it wont be to communism.

There is nothing else left for it to be. Capitalism can only give way to equality. Capitalism will continue to exist until the workers have realised what it is. The only movement subscribing to an alternative to capitalism is communism. There is no other theory to understand capitalism and dispute than communism.


What if i dont agree on "that everyone has the right to be provided for". What if i think hard working and talented people should get more then lazy fools?

Then you are wrong&#33; What is it you want that everyone can not have, provided they contribute the same amount of work.


Some people cant leave without having a personal small plane.Or at least they wont be happy without it.

What people? Whoever thinks like this is a stupid person and really counts little in a working class struggle.


10 hours is a week is laughable.Its not even enough to suit basic needs.

If there are a billion people all doing 10 hours work a week to make food, clean the sewers, tend to electricty and water etc it is more than enough. Remember we are only concentrating on socially necessary work.


What if they will? Lets kids grow up and they do not agree to communism.Do they have a right to not agree? Dealt within collective? How is that....

You just dont get it do you? Why would someone rebel against having everything they needed and being able to do everything they wanted...???

[JustSoul]

What if I want slavery, what if I want to kill all the women? Surely no one will agree with you. It seems natural that everyone has the necessities to live. If you don&#39;t work, you aren&#39;t going to get anything. The idea is that, over time, people will work because they want to, there will no longer be those "lazy fools."


There are laws and a goverment to force those laws. Also there is a huge huge difference. By killing the women i am forcing my "ideas" on her. By refusing to pay for some lazy bum iam not. Actually you will be on the enforcing side in this case.

And if you think people will work just because they want to is just laughable. It wont happen unless you "brainwash" people.

[JustSoul]

But that&#39;s the point. You dont need money to have these things.


Ofcause i do. Or the money equivalent of working-hours. Someone has to spend his time making all those things. Lets use the term working-hours instead of money. Feels better now?

But that&#39;s not a bad thing. Human desire is a good thing, but we should be working together to achieve it.


Why should i? If i think it will help me sure i will cooperate. But communism will just slow it down so i wont.

Such as what?


Iam talking about my cottage,3 cars a plane and a speaking fridge.

There is nothing else left for it to be. Capitalism can only give way to equality. Capitalism will continue to exist until the workers have realised what it is. The only movement subscribing to an alternative to capitalism is communism. There is no other theory to understand capitalism and dispute than communism

I dont believe it. Infact 99% of population dont. Oh and sure there is something else. A global goverment for example .

Then you are wrong&#33; What is it you want that everyone can not have, provided they contribute the same amount of work.


People do not contribute same amount of work. Hours spend on work &#33;= number of work contributed. If iam more talented , work harder i sure as hell contribute more. And that what money is. An equivalent of work done.

What people? Whoever thinks like this is a stupid person and really counts little in a working class struggle

You think he is stupid. I think he is one of the best American writers. Look up on some Richard Bah books.

If there are a billion people all doing 10 hours work a week to make food, clean the sewers, tend to electricty and water etc it is more than enough. Remember we are only concentrating on socially necessary work.


No it wont. Standart now is 35 or 40 hours a week and that shows that 10 hours a week is not enough for sure.

You just dont get it do you? Why would someone rebel against having everything they needed and being able to do everything they wanted...???

Becaue they wont have anything they want. As i have said i want a personal plane ... or 2.

[yeahjim]

"What is it about money that is so important to you?"

it is not the money itself that is important, it is the promise that if i work hard and succeed at what i set out to do in the workforce, i will acquire benefits that i value (a nicer place to live, clothes that i enjoy wearing becuase i think they look good, the capacity to travel and sightsee where i want to go) that are bought with money. money is not an ends, but rather a means.

and incidentally, what is it about money (or rather, the benefits that it brings which i mentioned) that makes it so distasteful to you? greed is not always a bad thing, just becuase Thomas Edison spent time inventing things so he would become wealthy doesnt negate that fact that now his inventions benefit mankind as a whole.

"What does a test like this mean? That you can solve logic better than another person? This has on relevance to creating a fairer society."

wait wait. you want to talk about relevance?

everything can be labelled irrelevant.

your a talented musician? irrelevant, it does nothing to create a fairer society.

your a good public speaker? irrelevant, for the same reason?

good sculptor? ditto.

but see, why are these things NOT irrelevant?? becuase society as a whole places value on these skills, just as society as a whole places value on the ability to think logically.

which is why those skills are important to have.

no skill is INHERENTLY meaningful, it is only societys sense of that skills value that gives it meaning.

a good example is the brute strength.

a society that relies on hunting for its source of food might prize brute strength, and award the strongest people places of honor in its heirarchy. but a society where higher education and being able to reason is most important would correspongingly put much less emphasis on the importance of physical strength.

so the only skills that are EVER really imporant are those that society as a whole values. and those who possess those skills will be awarded more money, prestige, and honor in that society.

thats just human nature, dont like it? tough, youre not gonna change it, and neither is anyone else.

"For a start you can not analyze a communist society based on the system we live in now. Your strong work ethic is driven by a desire to earn more money. You are not taking into account that some people are drained by this selfish aim. Some people do not have the confidence to attempt to achieve these goals. Sometimes it is easier just to do what you need to to earn the money you need to survive. Society dosnt make life easy for people"

yes, and some people really just enjoy killing people. i mean, they love it. serial killers, for example.

whats your point? that just becuase SOME people arent happy with the system, and lack the skills to reach the highest echelons within it, we need to change the entire thing?

thats insanity, such belief is called the tyranny of the minority, and its just as bad as the tyranny of the majority.

just becuase some people lack the skills and motiviation needed to succeed in capitialist society does not mean we should deny the many people who do have the skills and the drive their right to succeed past the point where the first group has failed.


"Of course human dreams and human abilities will never go away. The question you should ask is, once those ten hours a week are over what can I do? The answer is, if you still desire to work at this electricity station you can work there. If you wish to paint a picture or design websites then you do that. The rest of your time is devoted to your own personal desires and wants and because you do not have to worry about food and electricity and paying your rent the feeling of freedom will be overwhelming. You can achieve anything, because you do not have to live in constant fear of eviction or starvation."

ahh, but i can NEVER get more money, no matter how i spend that time. My income is permanently capped.

which means that i can write or design websites all i want, but i can NEVER buy better clothes than my neighbor, or go on a better vacation, or live in a bigger house, becuase my income is forever limited to the same level that his is at.

which is where the oppressive side of communism comes out. you can do anything you want to in all that free time- as long as it doesnt cost lots of money, becuase you wont have any.

thats why capitialism is so much more successful economically- it offers something look forward to IF you do more work. communism offers no incentive to do more work, and thus the communist society only does the barest amount of work possible. this might leave more time for reading and writing, sure, but what of technological advancements?

if everyone in te world had become communist in, say, 1900, there would probably be no computers, or dvds, or television sets- becuase what would be the point of investing time and energy into inventing and refining such things? you wont make any money off of such activities. there is little incentive for forward progress. THAT is the biggest single flaw with communist theory.

"If this lazier neighbour cares not for being intelligent or playing a musical instrument it does not mean he should be excluded from society because of it."

One man sits around drinking beer and watching the game in his spare time.

The other man, Bill Gates, invents Microsoft.

Why shouldnt Bill Gates be able to make tons of money off his invention, when he chose to put in the time, work, energy and money that his neighbor didnt? they both had a choice, didnt they? So shouldnt one of them be allowed to be rewarded financially if his choice benefits society, as Microsoft has?

"This is what it comes down too, your own personal financial situation. In communism this will be irrelevant. All your needs will be catered for, just as they should be"

What of my wants? I WANT nicer clothes. I WANT a bigger house. I WANT faster cars. I am not hurting my neighbor by choosing to work harder than he is, and subsequently getting paid more for my work, so i can afford these things that i want.

"A doctor is no more important than a brick layer."

Bullshit. Noone ever died becuase a bricklayer couldnt be found in time. Dont be naive.


"They have different skills. One is more complicated than the other but both are socially necessary jobs."

Really? The Doctor couldnt bricklay as well? I think if he wanted to, the Doctor could do both jobs. The same cant be said for the bricklayer, becuase he lacks the education and possible the mentally capacity to be a doctor. Thus, by simple logic, if one of the two could do both jobs, and the other one can only ever do one, the first man is more important to society than the second. Its simple logic.


"However, in a communist society people will want to become doctors because they want to make a full time and perminant contribution to society and will do it out of a love for humanity."

Or perhaps, people will say "To hell with all that hard work in Medical school that would take years out of my life to complete", and noone would be a doctor. Then what? the Govt would force people to become Dr&#39;s? What a free society, indeed...


Incidentally, when i saw this-

"A very clever evasion. Do you agree that capitalism creates greed?"

I couldnt help but respond.

Capitalism doesnt create greed. Greed is a preexisting emotion in evey person. If we do away with capitalism, we will still not eradicate all greed, thus capitalism cannot be the source of creating greed.

So you really believe that all the negative attributes of people- shallowness, greed, animosity, selfishness- are CREATED by capitalism? That if the world agreed to try and adopted communism, all these human emotions would vanish?

[Sabocat]

And if you think people will work just because they want to is just laughable. It wont happen unless you "brainwash" people.

You&#39;re not thinking in the right perspective. If you could have any job that you wanted, something that either fulfilled you or made you truly happy, why wouldn&#39;t you want to go to work? You are right, in as much as in today&#39;s society, given the choice of working your ass off on a road crew in 100 degree heat for minimum wage while the owner gets wealthy or sitting at home, the person would stay at home. Why wouldn&#39;t they? Wouldn&#39;t you?

It&#39;s about everyone living to their fullest potential. Social responsibilities will have to be met, like sewers, electricity, trash collections etc, buy either there will be incentives offered to the people that are willing to do that work, or everyone shares in it equally.

Ask yourself this question. Someone of say a lower IQ that isn&#39;t capable of being a brain surgeon, but is very happy working as farm labor, should that person not be able to enjoy all that life has to offer? Is travel and worldly experience only for the bright and wealthy? That&#39;s not the world I, or I would guess most here want to live in. Why are they worth less? They are providing food. Without food, there are no lives for the doctor to save or enhance. The doctor would be superfluous. Why shouldn&#39;t that person be able to have all the things that make them happy and fulfilled.

I think we both know that under the current capitalist environment, those farm hands, janitors, trash collectors, etc live a life of quiet desperation. Living from check to check. And don&#39;t tell me that they can better themselves in a capitalistic society. Someone of lower mental ability will never have the chance to taste all of life&#39;s fruits.

You need to get by the idea that money is what is making you happy. Your life is what should make you happy, helping your fellow man should make you happy, not the pursuit of money.

[yeahjim]

A good place where the foolishness of Communism shines through is in the medical sector.

"Everyone will get what they need."

OK, well then.

Everyone will NEED high quality medical care.

And if i am a person dying of cancer, i will NEED research to be done to find me a treatment.

I am a person who needs a very difficult and long operation done to live, I will NEED it done.

same for everyone other potentially lethal disease and disorder that exists.

So, whos going to be treating all these people AND doing all this reasearch on every single disease AND doing all the long and difficult operations on *every single person who becomes ill to some extent or another*? they will all argue that they need it for their health or survival.

Lets not forget, before you say "Why The Doctors, of course&#33;" that there will only be as many Doctors as wish to become Doctors. And that might not be enough, especially cosidering that they will each only work 10 hours a week.

So do go on, what happens if there are not enough Doctors to go around to meet every single person&#39;s every health NEED?

Will the Govt use incentives to encourage people to become Doctors? They cant if they are purely communist, becuase that would destroy the "Everyone gets everything equally" clause.

Or will the Govt force people to become Doctors? That not only results in less freedom than under the current Capitalist system, that borders on outright Fascism.

So if that hypothetical emerges in your utopian pure communist state, what will happen?

[JustSoul]

Problem is there wont be many people that are happy with farm labor, sanitation work or even just a standart factory worker. The only driving force for people on those jobs is money.And there is nothing wrong with it.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I read not that long ago that Cuba developed a cheap HIB vaccine to cure phnumonia(sp?) and meningitus.


Cuba&#39;s medical system kicks arse.

Why couldnt the U&#036; do that? with all the money the U&#036; has, all there for more intelligent people and stuff.


It was on BBC News not that long ago, there was a thread about it on here somewhere.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 08:47 AM

still its hypocritical that they dont like globalization and free-trade, but want other countries and the USA to trade with CUBA.

Communists do not oppose globalization. We only oppose capitalist globalization. When capitalism participates in globalization, atrocities almost always follow.

Check this out, for starters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1448962.stm
hmm. That story had no facts, only facts come from the commie(guerilla) unions. The guerilla has infiltrated the unions in colombia.
The guerillas are the one&#39;s that have attacked coca-cola employes in colombia. And those companies in Colombia are not owned by coke, they just distribute coke in Colombia.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 01:46 PM
Is Russia trying to take over the World, is China? Yet countless fools waste their time trashing China and Russia and telling me what a threat to us they are. I live in the real world and here there is only one threat to freedom and peace around the World- the land of Slavery and Genocide. I&#39;m amazed how, worked up people get about nonsense that is only in their head, yet when it comes to the real world they are so quick to enlist in the legions of hatred, mindlessly parroting the BS their master feeds them. What&#39;s the point of pretending to be a Communist, when you are against real Communism, I want the type of Communists that save us from the real threats, just like in 1945.
Oh yes, the USSR never wanted to take over the world, they just took over eastern europe, tried to take over afgahnistan in the 80&#39;s. Helped north korea, helped north vietnam in their wars. HELPED CUBA WITH ARMS AND MONEY and cuba helped arm and train guerillas in latin america.

China helped all communist guerillas in Asia, they helped the North koreans and they helped north vietnam among others.

[Xprewatik RED]

Can&#39;t forget Stalin&#39;s invasion of Finland. Remember Eastern Europe had no popular revolutions, puppet regimes were set up.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 04:10 PM

If Europe countries never had come to Africa, America (north and south), asia en australia, they people would be happier. They wouldnot have been exploited by the western countries...

So when there is no imperalism, there were not billions of people starving
Because then, the natives still be living there old lifes and would be a lot happier
no starving? that is why a lot of mayans had to abandon certain areas in central america because they could no longer use the land, so they had to move to other places because they where starving.

What makes you think they where a lot happier?

you know the aztects, mayas, incas and other indians sacrificed virgins and other people to their gods.

Also they where many wars between indians. And the aztects also wanted to expand and did, just like other natives.

Old life was much harder, and you are in no position to say they where happier, because you barely know about the natives.

you talk about living the old lives, what about the people that where killed by gengis kahn.

Or the peole conquered by the romans or the greeks.

If the natives in Latin America would of had greater technology they would of conquered Europe.

[Pingu]

Originally posted by el_profe+Jan 3 2004, 11:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Jan 3 2004, 11:28 PM)
[email protected] 3 2004, 04:10 PM

If Europe countries never had come to Africa, America (north and south), asia en australia, they people would be happier. They wouldnot have been exploited by the western countries...

So when there is no imperalism, there were not billions of people starving
Because then, the natives still be living there old lifes and would be a lot happier
no starving? that is why a lot of mayans had to abandon certain areas in central america because they could no longer use the land, so they had to move to other places because they where starving.

What makes you think they where a lot happier?

you know the aztects, mayas, incas and other indians sacrificed virgins and other people to their gods.

Also they where many wars between indians. And the aztects also wanted to expand and did, just like other natives.

Old life was much harder, and you are in no position to say they where happier, because you barely know about the natives.

you talk about living the old lives, what about the people that where killed by gengis kahn.

Or the peole conquered by the romans or the greeks.

If the natives in Latin America would of had greater technology they would of conquered Europe. [/b]
look at aboriginals, they lived as one with the nature, had there rules, and lived there lifes. There culturle wasnot perfect, but better then now and the time when they were discoverd by the west. They were discriminated en put together in camps.

I think they would be happier when the europeon imperialist never had come

and about the incas, and maya&#39;s, europians did burn so called "witches" and had war

now these countries are ruled by people who exploited them, they lived closer to nature, it wasnot perfect, but it was better then now, i think

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 12:37 AM


and about the incas, and maya&#39;s, europians did burn so called "witches" and had war

now these countries are ruled by people who exploited them, they lived closer to nature, it wasnot perfect, but it was better then now, i think
I dont think it was better than it was now. You have to hunt for food, they could not overcome natural disasters so easily some tribes couldnt overcome the disasters.
they still had wars, they also had slaves. they where not very different from the Europeans. The man difference was that they could not advance technologially like the chinese or the europeans did.

[The Feral Underclass]

JustSoul

It is difficult argueing with the middle classes. Of course it is unimaginable for you that you might live in a world where you dont have a talking fridge, three cars and a plane but this really has no baring on working class strugle. The fact that you might get upset at the fact your material world has crumbled is fine by me.

Capitalism exists and it exploits. As long as that happens the revolutionary left will have an alternative. As long as capitalism continues to perpetrate its rule over the world there is a course to be fought for.

I am not here to pander to your middle class sentiments and I am not here to try and make you feel better. I am not here to sell you, the middle classes, communism.

Never the less, I will answer your points. A waste of time admittedly.


Ofcause i do. Or the money equivalent of working-hours. Someone has to spend his time making all those things. Lets use the term working-hours instead of money. Feels better now?

Making what...You&#39;re talking fridge...sorry, but it wont be important.


Why should i? If i think it will help me sure i will cooperate. But communism will just slow it down so i wont.

You don&#39;t have too. You can choose to be a part of society or you can choose not to be, it is your choice. However, your selfishness and desire to be rich etc is something that is not prominant in the british working class. Of course people want to be comfortable and want to be able to by cheap food and pay low rent but as far as demanding three cars and a talking fridge go, I think you will find that those things are not at the top of their priority list.

You have to understand that I am not talking about catering for the middle classes. I am talking about fighting for the working class to control society. Quite frankly I couldnt care less about you or your talking fridge.


Iam talking about my cottage,3 cars a plane and a speaking fridge.

Tuff shit&#33;


I dont believe it. Infact 99% of population dont.

Actually I would say that the vast majority of working class people acknowledge problems in capitalism they just do not have the political perspective. This just takes time and deidcation from the various movements that are trying to bring about class consiousness. It has succeded in the past and it will succeed again. As long as capitalism exists there will always be working class struggle.


A global goverment for example .

This isn&#39;t an alternative to capitalism.


People do not contribute same amount of work. Hours spend on work &#33;= number of work contributed. If iam more talented , work harder i sure as hell contribute more. And that what money is. An equivalent of work done.

I dont think I can keep repeating the same thing over and over again. I am sorry if you dont get it. Your hard work and talents will not go to waste. Your ability to do things will still exist but they will be things you can achieve in your own time. All society needs is 10 hours a week contributed to socially necessary work. If you want to use your talents to do something with the rest of your time feel free. The difference between communism and capitalism is that you will not have to worry about food, housing and eminities etc.


Standart now is 35 or 40 hours a week

But that&#39;s because we work in business who&#39;s sole aim is to make money-. Some work in factories producing shoes to be sold on the high steet, some work in telehphone sales, some are lawyers, etc etc. Those 35-40 hours are not spent working in socially necessary jobs, they are pointless jobs which are there to make indevduals money. IN a communist society these jobs wont exist. This means that hundreds of millions of people are free to contribute directly to society. Who knows, maybe after a few decades the time for work will be three hours a week.


As i have said i want a personal plane ... or 2.

Tuff&#33;&#33;&#33;

[The Feral Underclass]

yeahjim

I am not going to respond to your post because I think it is a waste of time. I will only repeat things I have already said and as I pointed out to JustSoul it is difficult trying to argue with members of the middle class. Your bouregois lusts for material possesions is a problem you have to deal with and at the end of the day has absolutly nothing to do with working class struggle.

[redstar2000]

What a thread&#33;


I am against communism because I realize that there will always be rich and poor and nothing will change that, and by trying to change it, you will make things worse.

Not only is there "a sucker born every minute", but most of them emigrate to the United States&#33; :o


The fact is that there never will be a utopian world like you think there can be, and until you realize that unfortunate fact of life, then I can&#39;t say anything to convince you that I&#39;m not an "evil capitalist" but rather a realist.

You apply "realist" to yourself and "utopian" to us.

That&#39;s nice.

You can grasp, I trust, that we might see it otherwise...just the opposite, in fact.


If you want to make a change, give to charity or found your own charity...

Communism is not a charity...even though there are some who think it is.

It&#39;s not simply about less money for the rich and a little more for the poor--it is the emancipation of the working class from wage-slavery.

It means that you will not be allowed to grow rich from our labor.

Horrors&#33; :lol:


The fact remains that those who choose to go by the way of the free market do get better economies.

Yeah, just go down to Argentine and ask them how things worked out with their "free market" policies of the 1990s?


I come from a working class family. I am not part of the so-called "ruling class" but someday due to hard work will be, see that is how capitalism works. Deal with it.

:lol: SUCKER&#33; :lol:

I&#39;ll bet he buys lottery tickets. :lol:


I know that I would much rather live in a country that lacked bricklayers than a country that lacked doctors.

Planning to live in a hospital, are you?

Dummy&#33;


...it is possible for those who make a genuine effort, to become what they want to be.

It is "possible"? What are the odds?


...go to college, get a higher degree of learning, and make what you will of yourself.

"Make what you will of yourself"? Is this human as "performance art" or human as "building project"?

Or human as "net worth in hard currency depreciated over lifetime utility"?

Sounds really...inspirational. :lol:


What if I want to own a damn personal plane?

Amazing, isn&#39;t it? Communism sucks because I can&#39;t own a personal nuclear-powered moon rocket.

Obviously&#33; :lol:


What if I think hard working and talented people should get more then lazy fools?

If we were to apply that standard, then you would get nothing&#33;


...but I can NEVER buy better clothes than my neighbor, or go on a better vacation, or live in a bigger house...

Waahhhhh&#33; :o

Capitalist "arguments" against communism...we should re-name this forum Sociopathic Ideologies.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas