Italian election thread (What do you think of Grillo?)

[TheEmancipator]

Italian elections, and Belursconi appears to have won the Senate again. I really cannot understand why some people still vote for these clowns?

It appears that a protest party has formded though, under the rather autocratic leadership of Beppe Grillo. I'm just wondering what you guys think of him. A lot of my more right-wing friends call him some kind of revolutionary leftist under the guise of populist anti-establishment talk.

Personally, I think he'd be a win-win if he had won. On one hand he'd have totally destroyed the Italian political class and implement some proper reforms, on the other he'd have left such a mess that it would pave the way for severe revolution.

[Delenda Carthago]

clown.

[Sam_b]

I think he'd be a win-win if he had won.

My worry is that he has probably taken a bunch of votes away from the Rivoluzione Civile list, which has a far better chance of being a left voice than a bunch of liberalist 'direct democracy' folk.


n the other he'd have left such a mess that it would pave the way for severe revolution.

The 'gets worse to get better' or 'gets worse so there is a revolution' argument are firmly rooted in reaction and should be rejected by the left. It's pretty much advocating people should lose their jobs or stay on the breadline in the short term with no guarantees of any radical shift.

[TheEmancipator]

My worry is that he has probably taken a bunch of votes away from the Rivoluzione Civile list, which has a far better chance of being a left voice than a bunch of liberalist 'direct democracy' folk.

Let's be tactical here. Revoluzione Civile have all the cards stacked against them, as Belursconi and other media chains paint them as stalinist warmongerers who want to kill some bourgeoisie for sport.

5 Stelle would enforce the state reforms necessary for the Left to finally have a voice again, instead of being discarded by many due to the total control the media have over their image (Bersani, the centre left bloke, is an ex-communist and that supposedly lost him votes).



The 'gets worse to get better' or 'gets worse so there is a revolution' argument are firmly rooted in reaction and should be rejected by the left. It's pretty much advocating people should lose their jobs or stay on the breadline in the short term with no guarantees of any radical shift.

Again, think tactically. The alternative is Belursconi or Bersani. Are these guys really going to make things better compared to Grillo? I'm not convinced.

[Red Commissar]

Berlusconi had a slick media team, it also helps he essentially owns Italy's largest tv network (well, it's technically his son's now but who are we kidding), he got his poll numbers improved significantly by recasting himself as a populist and anti-austerity. I'm not sure how people forgot that he's essentially been THE politician of the past nearly two decades.

As for Grillo and the FSM, something about them rubs me the wrong way. I roll my eyes when we got this irreverant attitude towards politics and going off vague populism that some how gets channeled into a "fuck everyone" party. I'm worried that with them in parliament, they'll either do nothing or work with mainstream parties, and in effect disillusion many of their young supporters who thought they were finally sticking it to Italy's corrupt politics.

I thought Civil Revolution'd do better but they've continued the downward turned the left parties had in the 2008 elections. I think FSM really cut into their votes here, plus didn't help with Nichi Vendola taking his Left Ecology Freedom (himself a split from Communist Refoundation Party), and then taking that base to vote with the Democrat Party. Criticisms of electoralism aside it reflects poorly on these parties and their relevance on the political terrain.

On a side note, US media here seemed to have been sympathetic to Monti, going along with the whole "southern european" problem, ie Italians are too lazy, pleasure seeking, immature, what ever and can't accept rational reforms and austerity to fix their debt. They seemed to lament the fact that Monti didn't get much success despite being their idea of a "smart" candidate. Was other media outside the US like this too?

[Sasha]

Grillo seems the better choice of clown, but that doesn't say much...

[Sam_b]

Let's be tactical here. Revoluzione Civile have all the cards stacked against them

As does Grillo, so if you're really being tactical I assume you would call for support for the PD. This would be stupid, but then so would voting for the five-star movement over the left.


as Belursconi and other media chains paint them as stalinist warmongerers who want to kill some bourgeoisie for sport.

You've pretty much just made this up, considering the list is not made up of 100% communists and has many liberalised elements to it, such as IdV ERC, Agende Rosse, and so on. There hasn't been an all-out anti RC list attack, in fact it's barely been mentioned, and they've certainly not ben called "Stalinist warmongers" in the press. So I'm totally confused about how you would stick this in. In fact, more stuff has been thrown at Grillo.


5 Stelle would enforce the state reforms necessary for the Left to finally have a voice again, instead of being discarded by many due to the total control the media have over their image (Bersani, the centre left bloke, is an ex-communist and that supposedly lost him votes).

Yeah sorry but I'm not buying this nonsense. The 'left has a voice' when it effectively campaigns and remains a part of the community it bases itself in, not because some liberal turns over a couple of laws about newspapers. This is pretty much just sinking into reformism.


Again, think tactically. The alternative is Belursconi or Bersani. Are these guys really going to make things better compared to Grillo? I'm not convinced.

I'm sure it's fine and good to 'think tactically' when your job, house and living aren't on the line. This also has nothing to do with what I said. People who advocate 'get worse to get better' politics are reactionary and no friend of the left.

[Tim Cornelis]

Grill, in a Dutch interview, said he wanted to abolish capitalism and globalisation, but he doesn't understand what capitalism is, and, of course, supports it.


My worry is that he has probably taken a bunch of votes away from the Rivoluzione Civile list, which has a far better chance of being a left voice than a bunch of liberalist 'direct democracy' folk.

Civil Revolution is worse than SYRIZA, far worse actually.
The core of RC is:
Two Eurocommunist party, one far-left Green party, one centrist party, and in addition to this a bunch of social-democratic and left-liberal parties. This is not a voice the revolutionary left should follow. It's an opportunist, liberal alliance.

At least SYRIZA is devoid of centrist and left-liberal parties, and has some genuine far-left factions (Trotskyist and Maoist, which says something if I mention them positively).

[Raúl Duke]

The news report I got said the "center-left bloc" narrowly won...not Berlusconi?

[The Cheshire Cat]

The news report I got said the "center-left bloc" narrowly won...not Berlusconi?

They did, but Berlusconi won the most seats in the Senate, which means the center-left bloc is practically powerless as they will experience heavy resistance with every proposal they make, and most of their proposals will be rejected.

[Crabbensmasher]

Grillo's party seems like a temporary phenomenon. It's a genuine protest party bred out of political division and economic uncertainty. In other words, once the political climate in Italy has stabilized a bit, these guys will be out the door.

[hatzel]

Is anybody clear whether the Grillo-vote is anything other than a purely symbolic protest vote? I mean, is there actually a sincere belief that he might be able to steer the country in the right direction, that he has the right policies etc., or is it literally just intended as two fingers up to the Italian political parties, as I suspect? Because of course this would influence how we engage with it; it would be foolish to discuss his actual policies if he's simply intended as a figurehead of widespread discontent, policies being altogether superfluous.

[TheEmancipator]

As does Grillo, so if you're really being tactical I assume you would call for support for the PD. This would be stupid, but then so would voting for the five-star movement over the left.

Bersani and PD are establishment stooges who contributed to Belursconi's corruption. M5S are the most successful protest party to emerge in years...


You've pretty much just made this up, considering the list is not made up of 100% communists and has many liberalised elements to it, such as IdV ERC, Agende Rosse, and so on. There hasn't been an all-out anti RC list attack, in fact it's barely been mentioned, and they've certainly not ben called "Stalinist warmongers" in the press. So I'm totally confused about how you would stick this in. In fact, more stuff has been thrown at Grillo.

You know the sensationalist media. As soon as "commies" are involved, they get the fear factor in. It's my view that most people are too scared of RC because it would mean radical change.


Yeah sorry but I'm not buying this nonsense. The 'left has a voice' when it effectively campaigns and remains a part of the community it bases itself in, not because some liberal turns over a couple of laws about newspapers. This is pretty much just sinking into reformism.

This is what I really don't understand about a lot of orthodox Marxists and M-Ls. You seem to think the revolution can only happen the way Marx predicted it would, and that any other revolution is necessarily a false one. Most of you use the term "reformism" like a bad word. Do you not realise that this is the act of a reactionary, of a conservative who is always clinging on to his "holy book" like you cling on to Das Kapital? Do you not realise the entire premise of the theory and ideology you religiously worship is the criticism of religion and the use of critical though itself?

Much like some of the unions these days, I fear you are stuck in the past. And I'm not saying that as one of those centre-left

I'm no great fan of Grillo, but he's detected a problem and he's willing to eradicate it. He'd have my vote if I was italian.


I'm sure it's fine and good to 'think tactically' when your job, house and living aren't on the line. This also has nothing to do with what I said. People who advocate 'get worse to get better' politics are reactionary and no friend of the left.

It's already getting worse anyway. If you think the political left in Europe can do anything to solve this crisis, then think again. They are too busy shooting themselves in the foot or feeling sorry for themselves afterwards. They would without a doubt drive the capitalist economies to oblivion if elected and would get all the blame afterwards while the millionaires laugh at us.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

In an election between HIV and Cancer, I could see why one would vote Grillo. In other words, I can understand the dilemma of the Italian electorate (though I certainly wouldn't vote for him)

[Sam_b]

Bersani and PD are establishment stooges who contributed to Belursconi's corruption. M5S are the most successful protest party to emerge in years...

Yeah, this has precisely fuck all to do with it. We do not vote for party formations because they are 'successful'. We vote for the propaganda of getting working class agitators on the ballot.


You know the sensationalist media. As soon as "commies" are involved, they get the fear factor in. It's my view that most people are too scared of RC because it would mean radical change.

Except the example you gave didn't actually happen. The press did not call RC 'warmongers' or 'Stalinists'. So why the dishonesty? Because you know you cannot justify your position?


This is what I really don't understand about a lot of orthodox Marxists and M-Ls

I am neither. Try again.


You seem to think the revolution can only happen the way Marx predicted it would, and that any other revolution is necessarily a false one. Most of you use the term "reformism" like a bad word. Do you not realise that this is the act of a reactionary, of a conservative who is always clinging on to his "holy book" like you cling on to Das Kapital? Do you not realise the entire premise of the theory and ideology you religiously worship is the criticism of religion and the use of critical though itself?


Yeah, this has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at all. Why not get back to the substance of the argument, you know, the bit you are supporting a reformist formation?


Much like some of the unions these days, I fear you are stuck in the past. And I'm not saying that as one of those centre-left

Well you fear wrong. Pretty funny you've now gone on to attack the trade unions as well though.


I'm no great fan of Grillo, but he's detected a problem and he's willing to eradicate it. He'd have my vote if I was italian.

You are not fan of Grillo, but you'd vote for him over a leftist slate? Nice.


It's already getting worse anyway. If you think the political left in Europe can do anything to solve this crisis, then think again. They are too busy shooting themselves in the foot or feeling sorry for themselves afterwards. They would without a doubt drive the capitalist economies to oblivion if elected and would get all the blame afterwards while the millionaires laugh at us.

It's pretty ironic you're called 'Hegel' yet have no political theory. If this is your reason for voting for a capitalist formation over leftists this is a liberal and reactionary argument that really has no place in working-class politics.

[TheEmancipator]

Yeah, this has precisely fuck all to do with it. We do not vote for party formations because they are 'successful'. We vote for the propaganda of getting working class agitators on the ballot.

Who are these agitators? How come Grillo has provided more working class candidates than Bersani has?



Except the example you gave didn't actually happen. The press did not call RC 'warmongers' or 'Stalinists'. So why the dishonesty? Because you know you cannot justify your position?They ignored them. When they were brought up, they vilified them due to Belursconi's control of the media, and they were labelled as leftists.



Yeah, this has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at all. Why not get back to the substance of the argument, you know, the bit you are supporting a reformist formation?What is reformism to you? Some kind of treachery to Marxism? Mind boggling...


Well you fear wrong. Pretty funny you've now gone on to attack the trade unions as well though.The major trade unions part of the widespread corruption in Europe, let alone Italy. How dare they lecture us on workers' rights then collect six figure salaries and do brown envelope deals with capitalist corporations. Trust me, the union bosses in Europe are all fucked beyond all recognition. Grillo has detected that, and wishes to eradicate it.


You are not fan of Grillo, but you'd vote for him over a leftist slate? Nice.Where is the leftist slate? Bersani? RC? Populist orthodox Marxists or Social Democrats living in a bygone era are not my idea of "leftist".


It's pretty ironic you're called 'Hegel' yet have no political theory.How do I have no political theory? All you seem to do is be destructive, while lecturing others not to. You seem to hint that you want these so-called leftists to win because they say they're leftists. That is not politics, that's fundamentalist bullshit without any analytical justification.


If this is your reason for voting for a capitalist formation over leftists this is a liberal and reactionary argument that really has no place in working-class politics.1/ Grillo is neither a capitalist nor a communist as far as I can tell. He specifically makes it clear he does not want to enter that debate.
2/ This has everything to do with revolutionary movements, which judging by your comment on Hegel you know close to nothing about. Or are you going to tell me the likes of Marx, Bakunin and Lenin were working class?

[Crux]

If you ask me the Civil Revolution list got what they deserved. What would they have done in parliament? Probably what they did last time, drink the poision chalice of backing a centrist, in bourgeoisie terms, austerity government. In fact the Civil Revolution itself is a micro-version of this, with "left of center" openly pro-capitalist elements having a leading role. And add to that, the list came about because the RC and PCdI were snubbed by the Democratic Party, not because they *wanted* to stand against what will be the next austerity government. So, no spine and no credibility. It's a shame, because, paradoxically there is a growing movement in the streets and in the unions, and the RC and co squander it all by learning nothing at all from past mistakes. So is it any wonder the five star movement have surged?

[Crux]

Just to avoid sounding too much like an elitist sectarian, I totally get why people would vote for Civil Revolution anyway. And my swipe at the RC and PCdI doesn't mean I don't think there are plenty of good genuine, activists in there. Indeed the leadership has tried to sidestep them on several occasions, wouldn't surprise me if this was the case with this election list too. So clarification: the leadership of the RC and PCdI got what they deserved. And Nicchi Vendola will find that "winning" with the PD is a pyrrhus victory.

Here's (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6180) what Contro Corrente has to say about the election results.
I don't have time to read it right now so I'll have to make some further comments later. Got a branch meeting to go to.

[Sam_b]

Who are these agitators?

Never read Lenin?


How come Grillo has provided more working class candidates than Bersani has?

Show me some figures, because you've just made that up. People with policies you want to hear do not necessarily make them working class. On class backgrounds you'd probably find more PD candidates from working class backgrounds, not that this proves anything.


They ignored them

Nope, this was not your argument whatsoever. In the space of three posts you've gone from how the media "painted them as warmongers and Stalinists" to them being "ignored". So which one is it? You've provided no evidence to back up these claims, and I doubt you will.


When they were brought up, they vilified them due to Belursconi's control of the media, and they were labelled as leftists.

This is not ignoring. You've flatly contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.


The major trade unions part of the widespread corruption in Europe, let alone Italy. How dare they lecture us on workers' rights then collect six figure salaries and do brown envelope deals with capitalist corporations. Trust me, the union bosses in Europe are all fucked beyond all recognition. Grillo has detected that, and wishes to eradicate it.

Yeah, there's a fucking huge difference between the TU bureaucracy and the rank and file. I would have thought you would have known that.


Where is the leftist slate? Bersani? RC? Populist orthodox Marxists or Social Democrats living in a bygone era are not my idea of "leftist".


You keep banding around the term 'orthodox Marxist' but seem to have no idea what it is, or identify the elements that are.


How do I have no political theory?

Because you've misattributed folk as being 'Orthodox Marxists' but never backed it up with substance. You've also blindly walked into supporting reformism. You've talked nothing about any strategy, let alone a revolutionary one, aside from the ridiculous notion that somehow things should get worse 'to bring on a revolution'.


You seem to hint that you want these so-called leftists to win because they say they're leftists. That is not politics, that's fundamentalist bullshit without any analytical justification.

You've spent this entire thread arguing that people should vote for Grillo because he's slightly better than Berlusconi or PD. People in glass houses.


Grillo is neither a capitalist nor a communist as far as I can tell. He specifically makes it clear he does not want to enter that debate.

Are you for real kid?

[TheEmancipator]

Never read Lenin?

That isn't answering my question, that's trying to avoid by sounding like a pompous arsehole who's "read Lenin" (who the fuck on this board hasn't?)



Show me some figures, because you've just made that up. People with policies you want to hear do not necessarily make them working class. On class backgrounds you'd probably find more PD candidates from working class backgrounds, not that this proves anything.Yes, but PD insist on sending their bureaucrats to parliament instead of these fantasy workers you talk about. Meanwhile, it is well documented that Grillo has sent unemployed, factory workers, students, etc to the parliaments.




Nope, this was not your argument whatsoever. In the space of three posts you've gone from how the media "painted them as warmongers and Stalinists" to them being "ignored". So which one is it? You've provided no evidence to back up these claims, and I doubt you will.

This is not ignoring. You've flatly contradicted yourself in the space of two sentences.Usual sub-standard strawman tactics I expect to see on an entertainment forum. Do you not comprehend that RC were either ignored as a minor party in the election or rejected because they were associated with the demonized hard left.



Yeah, there's a fucking huge difference between the TU bureaucracy and the rank and file. I would have thought you would have known that.I never said the contrary, neither did Grillo for that matter. He specifically targeted TU bosses.




You keep banding around the term 'orthodox Marxist' but seem to have no idea what it is, or identify the elements that are.
Because you've misattributed folk as being 'Orthodox Marxists' but never backed it up with substance.People like you living in the 19th century and who want to apply Marxist political theory by the book on 21st century. Its very cute, but Marx is laughing in his grave at the thought.




You've also blindly walked into supporting reformism. You've talked nothing about any strategy, let alone a revolutionary one, aside from the ridiculous notion that somehow things should get worse 'to bring on a revolution'.How is Grillo's plan not revolutionary? Because there's no dictatorship of the proletariat? Do you even know what a revolution is, or do you think it is some kind of de facto proletariat uprising?



You've spent this entire thread arguing that people should vote for Grillo because he's slightly better than Berlusconi or PD. People in glass houses.I never said that. I said I'd tactically vote Grillo to get rid of corrupt political elites.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever anyway!? I'm a hypocrite because I'd support Grillo for providing an alternative to the current political status quo (albeit at the necessary risk of a major fuck up on his part) while you still vote for social democrats who don't even call themselves that anymore and who were openly welcoming the EU bureaucrats in arms.



Are you for real kid?What now? Is Grillo some agent of capitalist forces in the West? He's just a comedian with ideas. Deal with it.

[Sam_b]

That isn't answering my question, that's trying to avoid by sounding like a pompous arsehole who's "read Lenin" (who the fuck on this board hasn't?)

Well I assume you have read Lenin on tactics towards the Duma, and standing candidates as agitators. We don't support candidates in an election under the impression they will take power, or should through bourgeois-democratic means. By all means it's good when some of these reformers get in, but we don't support people on the specific purpose they will.


Yes, but PD insist on sending their bureaucrats to parliament instead of these fantasy workers you talk about. Meanwhile, it is well documented that Grillo has sent unemployed, factory workers, students, etc to the parliaments.

This is all great man theory at its finest - God bless Grillo! But seriously, I don't see how they are only 'fantasy workers' when someone else refers to them. Workers do exist. Yet at the same time we don't just vote for workers because they are workers. Sections of the class have reactionary politics. There's even been arguments the Grillo is a crypto-fascist, and although I don't go that far, he has remarkable reactionary attitudes towards immigrants and cosying up to the far-right (http://internationalsocialist.org.uk/index.php/blog/further-thoughts-on-italian-elections/).


Usual sub-standard strawman tactics I expect to see on an entertainment forum. Do you not comprehend that RC were either ignored as a minor party in the election or rejected because they were associated with the demonized hard left.


It is not a strawman to show that you cannot prove anything you said the press said towards RC. Again you have come up with no evidence. Because of this, you've now changed to say that they were now ignored. It cannot be both, so which one is it? If so, why did you say the press called RC 'warmongers' and 'Stalinists' when they didn't, or if they did why haven't you proven anything?

I don't think it's a strawman to maybe doubt someone's arguments because they've made up things that didn't happen.


People like you living in the 19th century and who want to apply Marxist political theory by the book on 21st century. Its very cute, but Marx is laughing in his grave at the thought.

If you had looked at my organisation's website, and even some of the articles I have had published on our website, you would know I am a lot of things. 'Stuck in the nineteenth century' I am not. There's nothing wrong with being Marxist, but we believe Marxism and theory needs to be updated for the 21st century and changing conditions. Hardly orthodox is it? Just the other day someone called "post-Trotskyist" which I find hilarious but again points to how we're not orthodox in any way.

So please, tell me how in my posts, or in my activity with the ISG, I have been trying to 'apply Marx's political theory by the book'. I fear, like the other questions, I will see not one shred of evidence.


How is Grillo's plan not revolutionary?

Because 'new' and 'innovative' are not synonyms for revolution. I think the fact that there were dwindling vote counts for establishment parties shows there is a movement against austerity, but this isn't a revolution.


Do you even know what a revolution is, or do you think it is some kind of de facto proletariat uprising?

Are we talking theory or practice here? I'm sure you are aware of Aristotle's definition of revolution, but I am referring to how we understand it as leftists, and yes, that is about the working class, specifically that 'the emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class itself'. This can take several forms, but tends to be a civil or political uprising of the class. Now there is nothing wrong with engaging with electoralism but if you believe the class can take power through these pre-existing structures then you are deluded.


I said I'd tactically vote Grillo to get rid of corrupt political elites.

Yeah, I've been arguing that it won't. By all means though, the movement needs to hold Grillo to account.


I'm a hypocrite because I'd support Grillo for providing an alternative to the current political status quo (albeit at the necessary risk of a major fuck up on his part) while you still vote for social democrats who don't even call themselves that anymore and who were openly welcoming the EU bureaucrats in arms.

Now now, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I would likely have voted PdCI on the RC list. You're now tarring the entire list with some brush and the paint just won't stick.


Is Grillo some agent of capitalist forces in the West? He's just a comedian with ideas. Deal with it.

Ideas like denying citizenship to the children of immigrants? How are you dealing with that?

[Sam_b]

Should also point out that unless you're going to actually back up your statements with facts then I'm pretty much done with a circle argument.

[International_Solidarity]

Grillo is a reactionary and doesn't deserve the support of any of the Italian Left. His party is not a movement forward, it is a new party that is promoting some "reforms" rather than revolution.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Well it shouldn't be seen as a complete defeat. The Worker's Communist Party is pretty good from what I hear and they got 89,995 votes. Which isn't a large percent of the population but does show that they have a membership large enough to expand

[Crux]

Well it shouldn't be seen as a complete defeat. The Worker's Communist Party is pretty good from what I hear and they got 89,995 votes. Which isn't a large percent of the population but does show that they have a membership large enough to expand
It's more than the (openly) fascist parties. And yeah they're trots affiliated with one of the latin american internationals, they split out of the RC back in 06 I believe over the RC selling out to Prodi's government. I would probably have voted for them, had I been in Italy.

As for Grillo his populism is all over the place, apparently. That his party managed to get this massive anti-establishment vote is more a reflection of the failure of the left to put up a real alternative, I think.
Edit: haha it seems I have been paraphrasing the italian comrades article (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6180) before even reading it. Well, that's one way to tell I'm in the right organization.

[Red Commissar]

It's more than the (openly) fascist parties. And yeah they're trots affiliated with one of the latin american internationals, they split out of the RC back in 06 I believe over the RC selling out to Prodi's government. I would probably have voted for them, had I been in Italy.

That is right, though it was the predecessor of the Civil Revolution which caused the problem. The Communist Refoundation Party was in a list simply titled "The Left - The Rainbow", which essentially the same left groups that formed the Civil Revolution, except CR was expanded to include centrist forces.

Like you said that particular bloc got hit hard for collaborating with the Prodi government, and they couldn't avoid the hit even after they withdrew from the government. It seems in particular what really sealed the split and made it permanent was that the block after entering the government, including Refoundation, didn't vote against but in fact for enhancing the Italian military force in Afghanistan. To drive this home, in 2006 when the old block was formed among Refoundation, The Party of Italian Communists, Greens, and Democratic Left, they got 10.1% for 72 seats. In the 2008 elections which returned Berlusconi and PdL back to government, they lost all their seats as they didn't even meet the 4% threshold, getting 3.1%.

This reminds me, in a way, of how Die Linke got beat by the Pirate Party in the Berlin elections as it effectively failed to be a force for discontent against the system because of its own decisions to cooperate with the big parties in the Berlin government.

[Luís Henrique]

Italian elections, and Belursconi appears to have won the Senate again. I really cannot understand why some people still vote for these clowns?


Personally, I think [Grillo would] be a win-win if he had won. On one hand he'd have totally destroyed the Italian political class and implement some proper reforms, on the other he'd have left such a mess that it would pave the way for severe revolution.

I don't see exactly how one clown is better than the other.

Grillo's vote evidently expresses anger toward the establishment. But it also expresses a refusal of the existing democratic, leftist, labour-oriented alternatives. So, in the end, it expresses a "politics of ambiguity", which is the ground in which fascism is most likely to lay its roots.

Luís Henrique

[Sam_b]

No response and no evidence by Hegel, colour me surprised.

[Nachthexen]

I'm not entirely sure Grillo is the one we ought to be talking about when we discuss M5S. I think it's probably more likely that Casaleggio is the one who sets any sort of substantive agenda as opposed to just rabble-rousing as Grillo does.

As for "the party" itself, I'm not going to hold much hope until they do something but talk big. A lot of these self-proclaimed "anti-corruption" and populist parties tend to be programmatically vacuous and feed off of young male discontent toward the establishment while seeking to get into it. Consider that this stated goal, "Ineligibility of convicted criminals for public office", would see Grillo ineligible for public office unless it was changed (he has a conviction for manslaughter.) Doesn't seem so coherent.

I'm not convinced by anything they've said, to be frank.