apathy?

[nihilust]

I was realizing this morning how much it truly bothers me when people say things like, "everyone should just fucking die", "there's no hope for the human race" etc etc
Would this be the apathy that Marx referenced? How should we go about combatting it, just empowering people through action?

[TheRedAnarchist23]

I have seen this apathy before, and it usualy arises from people who want the world to change, but don't know how. Those people have the potential to become serious revolutinoaries, if you teach them.

[BIXX]

I personally find that most when people who are obviously correct are beaten down emotionally, mentally, and sometimes physically, for their beliefs. I mean, what they are experiencing isn't apathy exactly, it's just a loss of hope. I personally feel that we have no hope of achieving a true utopian society with people, however, I don't believe this is an excuse to stop trying. So while I do have the "Humans are fucked" mentality, I still try, because once you stop trying, even if you don't believe that people are fucked, then they truly are.
In summary, I don't think it's apathy so much as loss of hope.

[Brutus]

We fight it by showing them how things can change and why they must change.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I have seen this apathy before, and it usualy arises from people who want the world to change, but don't know how. Those people have the potential to become serious revolutinoaries, if you teach them.

I hope so. I know people like that too but they always gave me the impression of being philosopher-wannabes who think they're oh-so-wise because they embrace trendy cynicism.

Maybe the best approach is to press them on it by asking "What makes you say that?" If they go off on a rant about how we're greedy, self-destructive or violent, this can be an opening for you to explain why material conditions have made this the case, and give examples (there are plenty) of people acting rather differently---unselfishness in the face of adversity, people cooperating rather than fighting, etc., just in general to show that human behavior is not from some uniform "human nature" but is circumstantial according to their environment/socioeconomic context.

On the other hand, if they just insist without reason that people are irredeemably bad and start telling you you're naïve, I dunno. After a certain point it feels like in some cases it's not worth the time...but I never had a way with people.

[Red Enemy]

https://leftisminfilm.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/thet1.jpg

[Narcissus]

"Inside every cynic is a disappointed idealist"

I agree with Brad. You have to show them that humans are this way because of their environment, and that when you change the environment - you change the people.

Instill in them the hope of revolution, and in doing so your own hope shall be renewed.

I was once hopeless. I had nothing. I came to realise that I never would. But many years from now, I hope that my actions will have contributed to giving someone a world worth living in. I will live and die for them.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Maybe the best approach is to press them on it by asking "What makes you say that?" If they go off on a rant about how we're greedy, self-destructive or violent, this can be an opening for you to explain why material conditions have made this the case, and give examples (there are plenty) of people acting rather differently---unselfishness in the face of adversity, people cooperating rather than fighting, etc., just in general to show that human behavior is not from some uniform "human nature" but is circumstantial according to their environment/socioeconomic context.

If you say "material conditions" all you are going to get is for the person to think you are wierd, and to be bored easily from the things you say.
Instead, ask the person if he is like that. If men are truly wolves to other men, then that must mean both him and you are wolves to other men. If you are anarchist you have to deal with the "anarchy=people turning into crazy murderers" thing (strangely I have only seen one person ever think this of anarchism in my country), but it is easily countered by "Will you turn into a crazy murderer?". If the person assumes something of human nature, ask him if he is that way, it always works.


On the other hand, if they just insist without reason that people are irredeemably bad and start telling you you're naïve, I dunno.

Ask him if he is bad too. If he continues with his argument, then his is not going to change and you can make him an enemy. Then you can say "You are the naive one! You are so naive you take everything you see on television as unchangeable truth, while never actualy bothering to look for the answers yourself! If you think this way, then you do not deserve to live in society. Let me throw you to a pack of wolves and then tell me if humans are like them!"
That ought to shut him up.


After a certain point it feels like in some cases it's not worth the time...but I never had a way with people.

Have you ever actualy tried to teach your ideology? I have, many times, and I made many people sympathise with anarchism, and made 2 people anarchists (one is actualy just almost anarchist, but he is nearly there, he just has to begin calling himself anarchist). I am also not a people person, but that means nothing. You are not going to let your anxieties or tendencies towards isolationism get in the way of your duty as a revolutionary. You must accomplish this duty, whatever the cost. You should have realised this when you became a revolutionary.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

https://leftisminfilm.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/thet1.jpg

Exactly what I was thinking!

[The Intransigent Faction]

Had some longer responses but I pressed the wrong button and they disappeared. :( Ah well:


If you say "material conditions" all you are going to get is for the person to think you are wierd, and to be bored easily from the things you say.
Instead, ask the person if he is like that. If men are truly wolves to other men, then that must mean both him and you are wolves to other men. If you are anarchist you have to deal with the "anarchy=people turning into crazy murderers" thing (strangely I have only seen one person ever think this of anarchism in my country), but it is easily countered by "Will you turn into a crazy murderer?". If the person assumes something of human nature, ask him if he is that way, it always works.

I'm well aware of this and never meant to suggest using those words verbatim, but yes the general idea is important.
Also if people are so easily put off by two simple words, it's not as easy as you make it sound.
And from experience I'm not so sure you can say any specific response "always works".


Ask him if he is bad too. If he continues with his argument, then his is not going to change and you can make him an enemy. Then you can say "You are the naive one! You are so naive you take everything you see on television as unchangeable truth, while never actualy bothering to look for the answers yourself! If you think this way, then you do not deserve to live in society. Let me throw you to a pack of wolves and then tell me if humans are like them!"
That ought to shut him up.

Yeah, pretty much, or fire him up.


Have you ever actualy tried to teach your ideology? I have, many times, and I made many people sympathise with anarchism, and made 2 people anarchists (one is actualy just almost anarchist, but he is nearly there, he just has to begin calling himself anarchist). I am also not a people person, but that means nothing. You are not going to let your anxieties or tendencies towards isolationism get in the way of your duty as a revolutionary. You must accomplish this duty, whatever the cost. You should have realised this when you became a revolutionary.

OK this annoyed me. How'd you get from what I said that I don't realize I have to overcome my difficulties with being around people? I've struggled through that and gotten better but just because I say sometimes people make you feel like giving up on them specifically (as in the above cases where you suggest shutting them up anyway) not on people in general, doesn't mean I don't bother trying. What is easy is to berate someone for not being as persuasive as they could be, and while I agree it's important I don't appreciate being berated by someone presuming I don't realize it's important.

Anyway, the thing is my own views changed quite a bit just a couple of years ago. I was a Leninist but I've come around to something more like "Luxemburgism" (don't necessarily like that term which would tie me to one specific person's approach, and wouldn't describe myself as such in everyday conversation because it only has meaning for those who are already knowledgeable about communism, but you get the idea). So I wasn't really in the best position to "teach", but usually I follow some advice I got anyway and in most circumstances let political issues come up in discussions naturally rather than being the guy always trying to force them.

I do have one friend who's pretty damn close to being a communist, but most people I'm around are at best stubborn "centrist" liberals or a few social democrats. A good chunk of my family is downright reactionary, but I'm slowly opening my uncle's "hooray for small government!" mind up to at least more progressive views by convincing him that it's not just the state that behaves paternalistically and exercises coercion, but corporations or capitalism in general. So all I was saying was some people make it frustrating because I end up in arguments with people who have no sympathy for workers more often than I end up "teaching" or persuading anyone who has an open mind, not that I'd give up altogether.

/end rant.

[Let's Get Free]

People should be reminded that political action is the only effective defense against disaster- political action, that is, that incorporates our new understanding of the dangers of unlimited economic growth, unlimited technological development, and unlimited exploitation of nature.

[Existence]

I have seen this apathy before, and it usualy arises from people who want the world to change, but don't know how. Those people have the potential to become serious revolutinoaries, if you teach them.

So true ! I used to be like that before I became interested in the left

[Profunc]

I was in a chatroom the other day, with a bunch of people talking about how they were losing faith in the human race. It's sad to see, but even more sad to see people who aren't open to hearing others' ideas about why and how we can work to change that. If I even brought up communism, it'd be a shitstorm of reactionary rage..