Space Program in an Anarchist society?

[DasFapital]

What would one look like if it was even possible?

[cyu]

First you need resources. If there are people starving, I would support and encourage them to push people in the space program out of the way, until they get the resources they need. If those in the space program want to make sure they can work without interruption, it would be in their interest to help ensure there aren't more pressing needs to worry about (like starving poor people).

But let's assume the problems of dire poverty have already been solved. What next? See http://www.revleft.com/vb/valve-corporation-no-t170623/index4.html?t=170623&page=4

Many corporations do a song and dance about their readiness to let employees allocate 10% or even 20% of their working time on projects of their choosing. Valve differs in that it insists that its employees allocate 100% of their time on projects of their choosing. 100% is a radical number! It means that Valve operates without a system of command. In other words, it seeks to achieve order not via fiat, command or hierarchy but, instead, spontaneously.

Each employee chooses (a) her partners (or team with which she wants to work) and (b) how much time she wants to devote to various competing projects. In making this decision, each Valve employee takes into account not only the attractiveness of projects and teams competing for their time but, also, the decisions of others.

[tuwix]

What would one look like if it was even possible?

It depend on the stream of anarchism. But after achieving a communism it would like exactly as well as in Marx's communism.

[homegrown terror]

plainly put: there wouldn't be a mass effort to reach for the stars until the problems on earth are solved. in a pure anarcho-socialist society, the welfare of the most needy would be just as important as that of the least, and looking around there are a lot more "most" than "least" out there. through mutual aid, those that current society deemed worthless would not just be picked up, but helped to STAY up, and thereby contribute more to the world as a whole. once the most high have been toppled and the most low raised up, when every belly is filled and every head sheltered, then we can concentrate on on exploring someone else's moon.

besides such things as satellite communication that benefit broad strokes of mankind, i doubt extraplanetary exploration would serve much use to a post-capitalist society, at least not for the first few generations.

[o well this is ok I guess]

plainly put: there wouldn't be a mass effort to reach for the stars until the problems on earth are solved. in a pure anarcho-socialist society, the welfare of the most needy would be just as important as that of the least, and looking around there are a lot more "most" than "least" out there. through mutual aid, those that current society deemed worthless would not just be picked up, but helped to STAY up, and thereby contribute more to the world as a whole. once the most high have been toppled and the most low raised up, when every belly is filled and every head sheltered, then we can concentrate on on exploring someone else's moon.

besides such things as satellite communication that benefit broad strokes of mankind, i doubt extraplanetary exploration would serve much use to a post-capitalist society, at least not for the first few generations. ideally, in a supposed post-capitalist society activities like this should be undertaken for their own sake, rather than for some utilitarian benefits. Simply put, we should go to space because it's fucking space. I mean, I get it, people should be fed first, but there's no point mentioning that space exploration is practically useless because it doesn't matter. It's fucking space.

[homegrown terror]

ideally, in a supposed post-capitalist society activities like this should be undertaken for their own sake, rather than for some utilitarian benefits. Simply put, we should go to space because it's fucking space. I mean, I get it, people should be fed first, but there's no point mentioning that space exploration is practically useless because it doesn't matter. It's fucking space.

i didn't say it'd never happen, just that it wouldn't exactly be high on the priority list.

[MarxArchist]

What would one look like if it was even possible?

It would be a global effort as opposed to one nation state effort and would largely rely on technological innovation not a massive amount of labor. I think your question should be re-framed "Is technological innovation possible without a the state apparatus".

If we look at technological innovation today it's mostly military and other state sponsored projects (but still mostly military). I think if people were genuinely interested in space exploration on a global scale both technological innovation and production of space craft and production of various space exploration technology wouldn't be big deal. It's not necessarily the effort that makes our current space program a huge thing it's the price.

Technological innovation, or inventions, don't happen because people all want to be billionaires the scientific mind is more so inclined to such things simply by who they are and I would think education would still exist in a communist society. Capitalism isn't the mother of innovation it's the mother of mass production. Now that we have mass production down creating new tech is just a matter of thinking it up. If anything, at this point, capitalism is getting in the way of revolutionizing technology. Science will continue post capitalism.

[o well this is ok I guess]

i didn't say it'd never happen, just that it wouldn't exactly be high on the priority list. I'd put it high up. Once you've got food and shelter and all that business down, what else could be more fun?

[BurnedFlagz]

plainly put: there wouldn't be a mass effort to reach for the stars until the problems on earth are solved. in a pure anarcho-socialist society, the welfare of the most needy would be just as important as that of the least, and looking around there are a lot more "most" than "least" out there. through mutual aid, those that current society deemed worthless would not just be picked up, but helped to STAY up, and thereby contribute more to the world as a whole. once the most high have been toppled and the most low raised up, when every belly is filled and every head sheltered, then we can concentrate on on exploring someone else's moon.

besides such things as satellite communication that benefit broad strokes of mankind, i doubt extraplanetary exploration would serve much use to a post-capitalist society, at least not for the first few generations.

Could not agree more comrade.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

plainly put: there wouldn't be a mass effort to reach for the stars until the problems on earth are solved. in a pure anarcho-socialist society, the welfare of the most needy would be just as important as that of the least, and looking around there are a lot more "most" than "least" out there. through mutual aid, those that current society deemed worthless would not just be picked up, but helped to STAY up, and thereby contribute more to the world as a whole. once the most high have been toppled and the most low raised up, when every belly is filled and every head sheltered, then we can concentrate on on exploring someone else's moon.

besides such things as satellite communication that benefit broad strokes of mankind, i doubt extraplanetary exploration would serve much use to a post-capitalist society, at least not for the first few generations.

First of all, I'd like to say that it would be entirely possible to work on "feeding people" (although I have to question the viability of an anarchist society in a world where people are still not ensured the basics of life) and to also work on pushing the boundaries in space. For a start, entire societies made up of millions if not billions, let alone individuals, are perfectly capable of simultaneously walking and chewing gum. The skillsets required to feed the world versus the skillsets required to explore and develop space don't have much in the way of overlap - rocket scientists and agronomists would be rank beginners if they decided to suddenly swap hats, assuming they would even do such a thing in the first place. Much better to instead make actual use of those years of training, education and experience for something that will bring benefit to all.

Speaking of the benefits that research brings, not all the fruits of scientific endeavour which can be enjoyed by everyone (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/curiosity/topics/ten-nasa-inventions10.htm) are necessarily the intentional products of research specifically aimed at developing whatever. Sometimes chance and inspiration come into play during the course of scientific investigation, where the right mind in the right place at the right time can have a flash of insight leading to novel applications and/or further research in a different direction which does bring home the bacon.

[Raúl Duke]

Whatever the case, sign me up on this post-revolutionary space program! Even if whatever role it is doesn't entail the actual "going up to space" (although I would like to visit another planet or at least a moon in my lifetime).

[homegrown terror]

i guess where i'm coming from is the pessimistic viewpoint that, were we to achieve a truly stateless world, there would be a lot of pieces to pick up and loose ends to tie. the revolution and conversion would probably be socially catastrophic, and i'd imagine the first generation or two just wouldn't have sufficient time on their hands. i may be wrong, i'm more often than not negative about situations (it's a coping mechanism, if i expect the worst to happen, i'm pleasantly surprised when it doesn't, but if it does, i'm not let down) so perhaps this line of debate would be better handled by someone with a more positive outlook. i would certainly hate if my point of view in any way hampered our progress into the new era.

[Regicollis]

I think we should be cautious about applying strict utilitarianism to work in a post-revolutionary society. We should see 'use value' as something that goes beyond filling our bellies. For instance I certainly feel I get some 'use value' out of scientists looking into the Hubble telescope, through the knowledge that the Machu Picchu is preserved or through the annual Wagner festivals in Bayreuth. Things like that expand our minds and helps stimulate our inner lives. Doing away with them because they are not 'useful' would be a grave mistake.

It is a false dichotomy between eradicating poverty and exploring space (and other 'unnecessary' endeavours). The world has plenty of resources for doing both.

[Quail]

Could not agree more comrade.
Hey I know you're new here, but normally one-line posts that don't add to the discussion are considered spam, so in future could you please try to post something more substantial.

[hatzel]

Will there be a space program? If it's possible? Possibly! If not: no. It's as simple as that, really, and as none of us really have crystal balls, we can't exactly answer these questions with any certainty. One thing that you can be certain of, however, is that any post-revolutionary space program will not resemble that of the present day; we will not be able to sustain these centralised and centralising structures in a free society, they will have to be transformed. The challenge, then, is to devise technologies and institutions consistent with the broader socio-political context. As we cannot say what this context will be, it would be foolish to speculate about the range of possibility and how to overcome these limitations. Or perhaps I should say that we must ensure that speculation remains just that: speculation, blind speculation no less, rather than thinking that these are concrete plans waiting to be actualised. Remember, there's a world of difference between thinking of hypothetical ways the space program could be pushed in the general direction of integration into an equally hypothetical future society and brazen talk of how exactly the space program could be made consistent with an as-yet-unrealised (and fundamentally unknowable) socio-political context!

[Misanthrope]

To most efficiently provide necessary items. all science and math must be utilized. The world needs more scientists, mathematicians, and engineers. A space program is one of the largest sources of inspiration for us, and particularly the youth in regards to science. Of course things take priority over the other, but let's not negate the value of all forms of science and engineering and it's necessary presence in a communist society.

[cyu]

We haven't colonized the oceans yet - personally I think that would be much easier, though I do admit outer space is much sexier ;)

[TheRedAnarchist23]

You see how people orgnize without leaders in many situations of everyday life. You see how groups can organize with a common goal, and organize to achieve that goal without having any leaders of heirarchical structure. You see how decisions can be taken without having someone, or some minority, having absolute power over the others. You see how decisions can be taken through democratic means, or concensous. You see how decisions taken by the whole group or a majority are often better than those decided by one person or a minority without consulting the rest.

Now just apply these things you know to build a space program.

Honestly it bothers me how some people just can seem to be able to imagine how the world can work without heirarchy. It bothers me even more when it is the same people who want to live in a system without hierarchy, who don't seem to be able to realize that organization without hierarchy is possible.