another intro

[ahab]

Whats up old friends and new, I was going to put this in introductions but considering I am not a new member I thought I would put it in shit chat. I want to re introduce myself since its been a long ass time since I have been active in this forum.

This has always been a place of learning, laughter and disappointment at times for me and although its been ages since ive have spent hours reading, debating and bullshitting on here I have missed it. I dont remeber how/why I found this site (ive had a lot more booze since then) but I do remember seeing revolutionaryleft.com in a search and thought 'that could be cool' lol.

If you remeber me, I was a young fucker tired of argueing with assholes on myspace (popular back then) and looking for like minded people and more informed individuals to learn from. I met some cool muthafuckers on here, been to protests with them and helped some peers learn more of a background they have always felt in themselves. I have since joined the US Army, over six years now, been to Iraq and soon going to Afghan. I wanted to get more active back on here.

[Art Vandelay]

Are you still in the military?

[ahab]

sure am

[ind_com]

This'd better be a joke.

[Ismail]

So... you still an anarchist?

[ahab]

This'd better be a joke.

why is that?

[Art Vandelay]

Well someone could indeed be a genuine Marxist or anarchist and be in the military, however they are undoubtedly class traitors.

[ahab]

Well someone could indeed be a genuine Marxist or anarchist and be in the military, however they are undoubtedly class traitors.

That is a bold statement and how so? I have never laid a hand on or done harm to anyone part of my 'class.' Although I maybe a part of a bigger machine, which one of us isn't? I don't serve my country, I serve my family. I dont believe in imaginary lines or the agenda of a politician searching for further approval of constituents new or old. I have met more people involved in affinity groups and grassroots movements in the armed forces then an any other conference or forum.

[Art Vandelay]

Its really not a bold statement at all and not one which I even think needs much explaining. If you don't understand why, entering into the armed forces or the police force, makes you a class traitor, then I sincerely doubt your sincerity as a knowledgeable Marxist or anarchist.

[ahab]

So... you still an anarchist?

til the day I day. By bullet, whiskey or woman

[ahab]

Its really not a bold statement at all and not one which I even think needs much explaining. If you don't understand why, entering into the armed forces or the police force, makes you a class traitor, then I sincerely doubt your sincerity as a knowledgeable Marxist or anarchist.

There is a thick line between the armed forces and the police force. For example, no Army (in amerikkka) is allowed to carry a weapon in an american city, nor occupy an american city, whereas the police force is paid for by the local government which is owned by lobbyists and politicians, which if you follow up the chain is controlled by the people of said politicians district. Who owns those people? Whatever corporation employs them, and those corporations are the ones lobbying. It's a vicious cycle.

Back to the difference of the police and the armed forces. I only speak for myself and my own opinion. I have been all around the world now, particularly to the middle east (big surprise) and have done and seen nothing but helping those people. Even the kids comin in from tryin to play with old russian mines in Afghan. I do not prey on the weak or poor, I myself am poor and make just enough to feed my family, even facing a furlough because my government is to weak to take care of itself. But still we leave our families to help others. I agree you cannot say the same about the police. They prey and thrive off of the misfortunes of the working class.

[Art Vandelay]

So do you support the intervention in Iraq? I am assuming that is where you've done your tours of duty.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Hey hey hey, lets calm down here. After all we could comrades in the army to flock to our ranks. (not that I believe that we should tone down our rhetoric in our propaganda for the reasons JMP has cited). If he agitates in the army then I see it as a net gain.

[Comrade Jandar]

Is this a case of cognitive dissonance or what?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Is this a case of cognitive dissonance or what?
No, it's a case of "the US is so fucked right now that some people have to enlist to feed their family." The US Army functions as the last vestige of the welfare state, vacuuming up the poor with no or few other options to help administer the US' global hegemony ...


An E1, which nobody stays at long, gets about $1500 a month with housing and everything already paid for (live on base), medical care, etc .... versus $7.25 an hour at McDonalds with no benefits. Say you've got a kid to raise, too. A lot of people are faced with that choice, and take the military because it's a secure job and pays. And most people in the military don't kill anyone, there are a huge number of non-combat jobs (the majority actually) ... I know 5 people who've enlisted and none of them have so much as pointed a gun at someone, much less pulled the trigger. Two of them went in, got their job training and 4 years of pay that mostly went into their savings accounts, and then got out and found work in the civilian sector. The rest are still in and are financially a hell of a lot better off than the rest of us.


Cue Red Godfather coming in to call me a nationalist again

[ind_com]

Hey hey hey, lets calm down here. After all we could comrades in the army to flock to our ranks. (not that I believe that we should tone down our rhetoric in our propaganda for the reasons JMP has cited). If he agitates in the army then I see it as a net gain.

I think that a site that (rightly) disallows homophobes, racists and misogynists to post, should also ban individuals who are a part of the murderous hordes of imperialism. You can't invade countries and kill civilians just because you have to pay your college fees, and still call yourself a leftist.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

I think that a site that (rightly) disallows homophobes, racists and misogynists to post, should also ban individuals who are a part of the murderous hordes of imperialism. You can't invade countries and kill civilians just because you have to pay your college fees, and still call yourself a leftist.
It may surprise you that right now some people are more worried about not being homeless and having food on the table than cosplaying revolutionary.


And because I will undoubtedly be called all sorts of names over this, I'm not supporting the US military in-and-of-itself or its actions, I just understand why people enlist and that we shouldn't chastise an entire portion of workers for making a decision based on cold economic rationality, but instead agitate and educate those who've done their time in the military and win them over to our side, because they're workers like the rest of us.

[ind_com]

It may surprise you that right now some people are more worried about not being homeless and having food on the table than cosplaying revolutionary.


And because I will undoubtedly be called all sorts of names over this, I'm not supporting the US military in-and-of-itself or its actions, I just understand why people enlist and that we shouldn't chastise an entire portion of workers for making a decision based on cold economic rationality, but instead agitate and educate those who've done their time in the military and win them over to our side, because they're workers like the rest of us.

That portion of workers is killing other workers to feed themselves, and most of them are not even from that poor working class families after all. So now let's also feel one with Nazi, Fascist soldiers or US marines who were also working for their bread and just obeying orders?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

That portion of workers is killing other workers to feed themselves, and most of them are not even from that poor working class families after all. So now let's also feel one with Nazi, Fascist soldiers or US marines who were also working for their bread and just obeying orders?
No, the vast majority of people in the US military never even point a gun at someone. A minority works in combat roles, and many of them come out of it shaken with PTSD and unable to cope with what happened. Most of them are from working class backgrounds - the US Army routinely goes to poorer areas and sets up recruitment booths in high schools to get seniors (age 17-18) to sign their life away with promises of financial security. The army's own data will back this up, but they claim a family income of a little over $20,000 per year to be "middle class", with most of their recruits coming from families making $30-40k/yr ... that's household income, so both parents' income combined if they're married or a single parent making about $35k/yr



I just remembered something I used to do in high school to be an asshole. I'd go to the recruitment booth and pretend to be interested so I could get a bunch of "ARMY OF ONE" bumper stickers, then my friends and I would put them down the crotch of our jeans and walk around all day with dick stickers.

[ind_com]

No, the vast majority of people in the US military never even point a gun at someone. A minority works in combat roles, and many of them come out of it shaken with PTSD and unable to cope with what happened. Most of them are from working class backgrounds - the US Army routinely goes to poorer areas and sets up recruitment booths in high schools to get seniors (age 17-18) to sign their life away with promises of financial security.

Take a look at this, very few of them enlist because they have no other choice:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/08/who-serves-in-the-us-military-the-demographics-of-enlisted-troops-and-officers

And even if they don't point a gun at anyone, that doesn't excuse them. They are not enlisting not to point a gun at a victim if no one else is available for the job. Even most transphobes of homophobes won't normally engage in physical violence against LGBT people. Should they be allowed here then?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Take a look at this, very few of them enlist because they have no other choice:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/08/who-serves-in-the-us-military-the-demographics-of-enlisted-troops-and-officers
Let's take a look at this.


American soldiers are more educated than their peers. A little more than 1 percent of enlisted personnel lack a high school degree, compared to 21 percent of men 18-24 years old, and 95 percent of officer accessions have at least a bachelor's degree.



That's because most officers are drawn from ROTC programs, which are at universities. Officers are not the same as enlistees.



Members of the all-volunteer military are significantly more likely to come from high-income neighborhoods than from low-income neighborhoods. Only 11 percent of enlisted recruits in 2007 came from the poorest one-fifth (quintile) of neighborhoods, while 25 percent came from the wealthiest quintile. These trends are even more pronounced in the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) program, in which 40 percent of enrollees come from the wealthiest neighborhoods-a number that has increased substantially over the past four years.



Yeah, again, the Army considers middle class to be $20-50k/yr household income, which is nothing. This is word play. Also, the ROTC program is a university level program, where the colloquial "lower middle class" and colloquial "working class" are underrepresented, so most ROTC candidates are coming from a wealthier background. This is word play again.


Here's the actual defense department report: http://www.defense.gov/news/Dec2005/d20051213mythfact.pdf


Here you can see that most enlistees come from the $20k-50k household income bracket, which they consider "middle class". If both of your parents earn $18,000 a year, you are "middle class" by Army standards. Word play again.




And even if they don't point a gun at anyone, that doesn't excuse them. They are not enlisting not to point a gun at a victim if no one else is available for the job. Even most transphobes of homophobes won't normally engage in physical violence against LGBT people. Should they be allowed here then?
Sensationalized crap that's completely irrelevant.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think you may be overstating the "desperation factor" here. If you're living in a household that's bringing in 40 or 50k a year, your life won't be awesome or anything but at the same time you're not mired in poverty. There are non-military options available for you. Yes most people in the military come from a working class background, but they're not joining the army because they can't feed themselves or anything like that.

[ind_com]

Let's take a look at this.


American soldiers are more educated than their peers. A little more than 1 percent of enlisted personnel lack a high school degree, compared to 21 percent of men 18-24 years old, and 95 percent of officer accessions have at least a bachelor's degree.



That's because most officers are drawn from ROTC programs, which are at universities. Officers are not the same as enlistees.



Members of the all-volunteer military are significantly more likely to come from high-income neighborhoods than from low-income neighborhoods. Only 11 percent of enlisted recruits in 2007 came from the poorest one-fifth (quintile) of neighborhoods, while 25 percent came from the wealthiest quintile. These trends are even more pronounced in the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) program, in which 40 percent of enrollees come from the wealthiest neighborhoods-a number that has increased substantially over the past four years.



Yeah, again, the Army considers middle class to be $20-50k/yr household income, which is nothing. This is word play. Also, the ROTC program is a university level program, where the colloquial "lower middle class" and colloquial "working class" are underrepresented, so most ROTC candidates are coming from a wealthier background. This is word play again.


Here's the actual defense department report: http://www.defense.gov/news/Dec2005/d20051213mythfact.pdf


Here you can see that most enlistees come from the $20k-50k household income bracket, which they consider "middle class". If both of your parents earn $18,000 a year, you are "middle class" by Army standards. Word play again.

Sorry to say this, but the standard of living of a $20k-50k income household is very much middle class according to our third world standards, where your beloved soldiers come to show their bravery, and they are very unlikely to die from starvation if they refuse to join the army.



Sensationalized crap that's completely irrelevant.

And the same logic is very relevant when used to portray state mercenaries as helpless angels?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Sorry to say this, but the standard of living of a $20k-50k income household is very much middle class according to our third world standards, where your beloved soldiers come to show their bravery, and they are very unlikely to die from starvation if they refuse to join the army.
Obviously if you take someone's income from a first-world nation and bring it directly over to a third-world nation it will generally be lavish but here in the US $20-40k is a pittance, you could easily spend $10-12k/yr or more on rent alone. And if you're raising a family, it cuts even further into it. According to this (http://www.familiesusa.org/resources/tools-for-advocates/guides/federal-poverty-guidelines.html) a family of four (say, two parents and two kids) is considered below the poverty line at $24k/yr, whereas the US Army considers this "middle class" when gathering data for enlistment demographics.


I think you may be overstating the "desperation factor" here. If you're living in a household that's bringing in 40 or 50k a year, your life won't be awesome or anything but at the same time you're not mired in poverty. There are non-military options available for you. Yes most people in the military come from a working class background, but they're not joining the army because they can't feed themselves or anything like that.
Maybe it's just overrepresented here in the south :confused:
Also, 40k a year is enough to significantly cut into federal financial aid (like grants) for college, and with worries over college debt piling up, people are getting more cautious about student loans, putting kids from that demographic in a precarious economic position when they turn 18.