Obamacare Monstrosity

[cynicles]

For all those liberals who said obamacare was better than nothing.

http://jacobinmag.com/2013/02/employers-will-beat-obamacare/

[B5C]

Actually it is better than what we had before.




Insurers are prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays, in new policies issued.
Dependents (children) will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday, and regulations implemented under PPACA include dependents that no longer live with their parents, are not a dependent on a parent's tax return, are no longer a student, or are married.
Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause) individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.
All new insurance plans must cover preventive care and medical screenings[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#cite_no te-healthcare.gov-64) rated Level A or B (http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/pocketgd1011/gcp10s1.htm) by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Preventive_Services_Task_Force).[65] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#cite_no te-65) Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments, co-insurance, or deductibles for these services
Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.
Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policyholder) when they get sick.
Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

We had NONE of these before the law.

Businesses have been trying to get rid of giving health benefits to their workers for DECADES. Obamacare was just the easiest excuse by employers to justify the reasons to cut or just take the damage.

[cynicles]

So you consider losing employer provided health insurance and being forced to pay more for healthcare coverage or paying a penalty better? The only upside will be the increase in people demanding universal healthcare.

[B5C]

So you consider losing employer provided health insurance and being forced to pay more for healthcare coverage or paying a penalty better?

No, but it was going to happen anyway. The Obama elections just accelerated capitalist's plans to get rid of it.


The only upside will be the increase in people demanding universal healthcare.

Which may be the most ironic thing. Businesses don't want to support universal healthcare, so it has to be the state to provide it. Unless most of the American population goes Ayn Rand on us.

[cynicles]

No, but it was going to happen anyway. The Obama elections just accelerated capitalist's plans to get rid of it.



Which may be the most ironic thing. Businesses don't want to support universal healthcare, so it has to be the state to provide it. Unless most of the American population goes Ayn Rand on us.

Ah I see. Though the Ayn Rand thing unfortunately may put a stopper in that.

[Klaatu]

The only upside will be the increase in people demanding universal healthcare.

Exactly. Socialized Medicine. Like the rest of the (sensible) world.

Another plus: this so-called "ObamaCare" takes some power away from Capitalists.

Anything that takes power away from Capitalists is a good thing.

[Red Commissar]

Exactly. Socialized Medicine. Like the rest of the (sensible) world.

Another plus: this so-called "ObamaCare" takes some power away from Capitalists.

Anything that takes power away from Capitalists is a good thing.

The provisions would actually empower private insurers more- it would empower a different set of capitalists.

The idea behind this reform was to expand the amount of people paying into the healthcare system. The justification was that in the long run this would help drive down costs. It is by and large an expansion of a private industry with some regulations tacked on.

The ironic thing here of course is that Republicans were long in favor of this kind of system when some democrats began to push for some form of single-payer medicine or at least a more robust government insurance program. The "individual mandate" at its core was a Republican counter-proposal to the attempts by the Clinton white house to push for universal healthcare. This also had the support of certain businesses who are now opposed to it.

This is a big problem though honestly. Employers are holding this as a threat that they will not provide health insurance to all their employees- either by cutting jobs or hours. This is especially pronounced in businesses hiring minimum wage or near minimum wage workers. Interesting that they often complain about unions holding the industry hostage, what do they call this?

One of the weird episodes to come out of this is that these businesses, while being fairly supportive of the Republican Party's efforts to repeal the act, have challenged some Republican governors' decisions to block expansion of medicaid in their states because it would have relieved them of the obligation to provide healthcare to their full-time lower employees.

The only consolation to Democrats and their supporters is that since Romney was unable to win the election and Republicans didn't capture the senate, the law will go into effect as planned and it will likely be difficult to repeal after that. For better or worse they will adjust, the question is how much an effect will this have on the workforce after 2014.

I don't know how this displeasure with this would increase support for single-payer medicine. Media paints the current system as a "government take over" or some other buzzword, so by association something that really is a larger government involvement would likely be poorly received in the wake of this bill. I mean the media was going nuts enough before hand demonizing single-payer medicine as seen in Europe and Canada as ineffective and making people wait in line (of course, the people in Europe and Canada are just jumping to adopt our system :rolleyes:), I don't really see as the climate stands that people would want to adopt it, much less any other form of universal healthcare entailing government action.

[Lucretia]

For all those liberals who said obamacare was better than nothing.

http://jacobinmag.com/2013/02/employers-will-beat-obamacare/

All those liberals? You mean half the revleft forum, as evidenced by the responses your post has received in this very thread. If it wasn't already clear how young and consequently insulated many participants on this forum are from things like health insurance premiums, the response to this specific issue removes all doubt. A bunch of (poorly thought out and wrong, btw) theoretical declarations by people who don't have to pay the fucking bills.

[Red Commissar]

All those liberals? You mean half the revleft forum, as evidenced by the responses your post has received in this very thread. If it wasn't already clear how young and consequently insulated many participants on this forum are from things like health insurance premiums, the response to this specific issue removes all doubt. A bunch of (poorly thought out and wrong, btw) theoretical declarations by people who don't have to pay the fucking bills.

How exactly do you go from maybe what, three responses to the OP to launching a tirade on the forum at large? Get off your high horse.

IIRC, with the exception of a handful of users, most of revleft in the aftermath of the bill's passage as well as the Supreme Court case of it do not view the bill warmly. Most users recognize that there is no real reform here and even those who support single-payer medicine should recognize this as a flawed bill that will likely shift costs on to the population already dealing with bad insurance. I do not agree with BSC's or Klaatu's assessments here, but I do not think "half" of the forum can be said to hold those views.

[B5C]

All those liberals? You mean half the revleft forum, as evidenced by the responses your post has received in this very thread. If it wasn't already clear how young and consequently insulated many participants on this forum are from things like health insurance premiums, the response to this specific issue removes all doubt. A bunch of (poorly thought out and wrong, btw) theoretical declarations by people who don't have to pay the fucking bills.


BTW: I am almost 30 years old with years paying medical bills and seeing friend and family being denied healthcare due to caps or just confirmation of cancer.

Obamacare is not the bill we would like to have, but remember some of us here live in the United States. There are many Americans who do not trust the idea of "Socialized" Medicine. A lot of them are even liberals. Hell, my state's Democratic Party had "Universal Healthcare" in their platform for decades and never touch on the idea again because it's not politically a good idea anymore. There is a good chance that Universal Healthcare would be a state by state basis because even the Federal government doesn't want universal healthcare in the way they are cutting Medicare, Medicaid, and many VA health benefits.

[Lucretia]

How exactly do you go from maybe what, three responses to the OP to launching a tirade on the forum at large? Get off your high horse.

How? By remembering how I debated large numbers of them just months after I first joined this forum. It seemed that every thread about Obamacare was about 50-50, sometimes 60-40 in favor of the bill on the premise that "something is better than nothing," "don't let perfect be the enemy of the good," "my Aunt Petunia [or insert another cornercase anecdote here] can now purchase health insurance," and similar Democrat bullshit talking points they unwittingly absorbed. A small fraction of the Obamacare boosters ended up being restricted, the rest remaining on the whole forum.

If you want an example of these arguments, see the post just above this one. A classic case of two of the three talking points I mentioned.

And I wouldn't call what I said "launching a tirade at the forum." It's undeniably true that vast majority of the participants on this forum are under 35, with - i would argue - some size majority being under 21. These are the age brackets least likely to have any experience at all with health care issues. You sound like an offended ISO-er when the undeniable fact that the majority of its members are college students is pointed out to them. Facts are the facts, and pointing them out and drawing logical conclusions from it is not a "tirade."

[B5C]

How? By remembering how I debated large numbers of them just months after I first joined this forum. It seemed that every thread about Obamacare was about 50-50, sometimes 60-40 in favor of the bill on the premise that "something is better than nothing," "don't let perfect be the enemy of the good," "my Aunt Petunia [or insert another cornercase anecdote here] can now purchase health insurance," and similar Democrat bullshit talking points they unwittingly absorbed. A small fraction of the Obamacare boosters ended up being restricted, the rest remaining on the whole forum.

What would be the best? Oppose Obamacare and let insurance deny me coverage because I got cancer? This is the United States of America. Most Americans are not ready or don't accept any fiscal liberal or any left wing ideal. Americans are fiscally conservative & socially liberal. My home state is a big example of that. "We want more money to education, but I don't want my taxes raised to pay for it!"

[MarxArchist]

Exactly. Socialized Medicine. Like the rest of the (sensible) world.

Another plus: this so-called "ObamaCare" takes some power away from Capitalists.

Anything that takes power away from Capitalists is a good thing.

LOL, ya right. Thats why United heath, Kaiser, Aetna, Humana etc are wetting their pants in anticipation for this to start up. Obama gave capitalists profits like they've never experienced just like Mitt Romney did in his state.

This "capitalist were bound to attack medicare/medicaid/employer benifits and it just so happened under Obama's administration" line, while extolling the benefits of the new law is kinda dubious.

[Lucretia]

What would be the best? Oppose Obamacare and let insurance deny me coverage because I got cancer? This is the United States of America. Most Americans are not ready or don't accept any fiscal liberal or any left wing ideal. Americans are fiscally conservative & socially liberal. My home state is a big example of that. "We want more money to education, but I don't want my taxes raised to pay for it!"

This is precisely the problem I was referring to above. I'm pretty damn certain that you don't have cancer. Your arguments aren't based on information drawn from your actual life experiences; they're based on hypotheticals drawn up on the basis of Obamabot talking points. The thanks you got from NGNM, one of the most notorious of the Obama boosters who was restricted during that time period, should really tell you all you need to know about your position.

I am somebody who doesn't make very much money. I live above the poverty line, but not so far above it that I would characterize my life as comfortable. I receive health coverage through my employer, and I've seen my health insurance contributions grow substantially, and coverage decline, as a direct result of Obamacare. I can go on and list similar stories from actual people I know in real life, not invented hypotheticals tailored around the talking points of bourgeois politicians.

[MarxArchist]

All those liberals? You mean half the revleft forum, as evidenced by the responses your post has received in this very thread. If it wasn't already clear how young and consequently insulated many participants on this forum are from things like health insurance premiums, the response to this specific issue removes all doubt. A bunch of (poorly thought out and wrong, btw) theoretical declarations by people who don't have to pay the fucking bills.
I don't support the cuts to Medicare/Medicaid, the mandate to buy private insurance, the employee benefits on the chopping block and or anything about this new healthcare law and I have a mortgage, car payment, car insurance, PG&E, cable, food, gas, clothes, phone and a couple other bills to pay each month.

I don't have healthcare now because I can't afford it but my income level will tell the government I can afford it which is going to bring me a nice fine each year in the middle of one of the biggest economic rescission's of our lifetime. This is austerity plain and simple. Cutting hundreds of billions from Medicare/Medicaid while setting the stage for employers to cancel health benefits by using the coercive arm that is the IRS to police people into forking out more money to survive in a system already built on hamster wheel dynamics. I'm running out of gas here....at least when I die of exhaustion soon I'll have a hospital bed to die in? I suppose I could go without TV and a phone, buy no new clothes, eat top ramen and get another job.

kIjo-dWE1Jg

[GPDP]

Most Americans are not ready or don't accept any fiscal liberal or any left wing ideal. Americans are fiscally conservative & socially liberal. My home state is a big example of that. "We want more money to education, but I don't want my taxes raised to pay for it!"

Got any sources, perhaps poll data, to back this up? Because it seems like hyperbole derived from anecdotes and the fabricated reality of the media. As far as I can remember, polls routinely showed that most Americans actually do want universal health care, with support only dropping in the wake of a huge media blitz to discredit Obamacare.

[Lucretia]

I don't support the cuts to Medicare/Medicaid, the mandate to buy private insurance, the employee benefits on the chopping block and or anything about this new healthcare law and I have a mortgage, car payment, car insurance, PG&E, cable, food, gas, clothes, phone and a couple other bills to pay each month.

I don't have healthcare now because I can't afford it but my income level will tell the government I can afford it which is going to bring me a nice fine each year in the middle of one of the biggest economic rescission's of our lifetime. This is austerity plain and simple. Cutting hundreds of billions from Medicare/Medicaid while setting the stage for employers to cancel health benefits by using the coercive arm that is the IRS to police people into forking out more money to survive in a system already built on hamster wheel dynamics. I'm running out of gas here....at least when I die of exhaustion soon I'll have a hospital bed to die in? I suppose I could go without TV and a phone, buy no new clothes, eat top ramen and get another job.

Yes, this is how Obamacare is being experienced by real people, and will be experienced more and more as additional aspects of its are implemented. I'm sure there is the occasional Aunt Petunia out there who actually does derive some marginal or temporary benefit from one or some of the provisions, but overall, the law is designed to make such cases rare. It is a giveaway to insurance companies, best summed up what you called it: a piece of austerity that can only be understood in the context of other such measures meant to bolster the sagging rate of profit in the wake of the Great Recession.

[Red Commissar]

...

My problem with your post was not your swipe at the age of the users, but your position that most of us on this forum are, by association, liberals, because of some people you disagreed with on a thread from way back when.

I don't care about this stuff you are saying about the age of our users or whatever, but saying "You mean half the revleft forum" when the liberal position on the OP got brought up is rather odd. I don't really see how that is relevant or true. It reminds me of people complaining that this forum is simultaneously too anarchist, left com, trot, stalinist, liberal, anti-communist, what ever when they get into some disagreements with other users and blame the whole forum for it.

I guess I'm not just seeing this supposed widespread support for obamacare here, but then again I don't usually take what other people say as indicative of a whole forum.

[Lucretia]

My problem with your post was not your swipe at the age of the users, but your position that most of us on this forum are, by association, liberals, because of some people you disagreed with on a thread from way back when.

I don't care about this stuff you are saying about the age of our users or whatever, but saying "You mean half the revleft forum" when the liberal position on the OP got brought up is rather odd. I don't really see how that is relevant or true. It reminds me of people complaining that this forum is simultaneously too anarchist, left com, trot, stalinist, liberal, anti-communist, what ever when they get into some disagreements with other users and blame the whole forum for it.

I guess I'm not just seeing this supposed widespread support for obamacare here, but then again I don't usually take what other people say as indicative of a whole forum.

Look. You can be upset or offended or feel however you choose to feel. I am stating what I think to be true from my memory of the experience of having multiple discussions about the bill/law on the forum. If you want a refresher, I am sure a search of "Obamacare" will yield results that correspond to my memory.

[Mackenzie_Blanc]

If the Democrats really wanted to increase the number of individuals insured, they should have simply made Medicare universal for all individuals (which Americans don't realize is socialized medicine). Granted, Obamacare is a slight improvement over what currently exists due to the expansion of medicaid and increased coverage, but the capitalists prevail because of the individual mandate, forcing one to buy a private health insurance plan; Which is how the plan passed in the first place - the corporate HMOs still make out with profits at the expense of the working class.

[Lucretia]

If the Democrats really wanted to increase the number of individuals insured, they should have simply made Medicare universal for all individuals (which Americans don't realize is socialized medicine). Granted, Obamacare is a slight improvement over what currently exists due to the expansion of medicaid and increased coverage, but the capitalists prevail because of the individual mandate, forcing one to buy a private health insurance plan; Which is how the plan passed in the first place - the corporate HMOs still make out with profits at the expense of the working class.

See, RedCommissar. They are beginning to come out of the woodwork again, as they did over a year ago. People making the same argument Howard Dean made (he was chair of the DNC at the time the bill was being considered): "It's not perfect, but it's an improvement that represents a starting point for where we need to go."

No, it isn't. And no, it doesn't.

[B5C]

This is precisely the problem I was referring to above. I'm pretty damn certain that you don't have cancer. Your arguments aren't based on information drawn from your actual life experiences; they're based on hypotheticals drawn up on the basis of Obamabot talking points. The thanks you got from NGNM, one of the most notorious of the Obama boosters who was restricted during that time period, should really tell you all you need to know about your position.


I can sense you are using this product:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/mgreenwa/exposestraw.jpg

You are right. I never had cancer, but I have family and friends who do or had cancer. I know their struggle to try to pay medical bills and pay bills. For example my uncle two weeks ago got diagnosed for leukemia. Now they are worried of trying to keep two foster kids and their own house because they don't trust my uncle's employer to keep my uncle employed. Also note they are getting paperwork ready for Medicaid just in case he loses his job because he knows he has an high chance of being covered under "Obamacare" than the previous system.

Outside my friends and family. I've seen how the poor struggle to get insurance or pay. I used to be a account manager for a major rent-to-own business. I repo things if they don't pay their rent. Once day I had to repo an entire house because she had gotten breast cancer and her insurance company denied her because she had reach her cap. That was a sad day for me because I didn't want to repo her washer and dryer, all her beds, and her oven. When I left her house. She had no stove to eat or a bed for her and her kids to sleep on. I think that was the day that taught me about capitalism the most.




I am somebody who doesn't make very much money. I live above the poverty line, but not so far above it that I would characterize my life as comfortable. Really want to start the how poor you all fight? I only make 18,000 a year working for the 2nd biggest discount retailer for the nation. I barely work enough hours to get basic health insurance. Which is only an HSA account. HSA are health savings accounts. You put money in a special tax free account and you pay for EVERYTHING out of pocket up to 2,000 a year before the insurance kicks in. This is what major companies are moving towards. Also add that my wife works too, but she makes about 10,000 year as a contractor. That means I have to pay my wife's income, SS, and Medicare taxes out of my paycheck because my wife's employers is to damn lazy to file her W-4. Also add that I live with my in-laws because my pay doesn't even afford a studio apartment where I live. My wife doesn't have health insurance because I can't afford the extra $90 partner fee, but I did get her some dental.


I receive health coverage through my employer, and I've seen my health insurance contributions grow substantially, and coverage decline, as a direct result of Obamacare.Sounds like you are blaming Obama because your employers decided to accelerate the plan of not to offer benefits anymore. Employers were going to get rid of our benefits anyway. Also note Universal Healthcare (Socialized Medicine) would have NEVER pass that congress nor today's congress. Remember, progressive Democrats did try to pass a single payer bill during Obamacare but the Democratic leadership killed it.

If I was in congress I would vote no out of principle and because we are forced to buy private insurance. Yet, I was not a congressman or an senator and we have to deal with the issue now. The system is better than it used to be. That is the truth. You don't like it that I give credit where it is due. Well I am sorry you can not accept that. Just because we are anti-capitalists we can't give credit when a capitalist does something a big better for the working class in a once in a century. Was Marx wrong to give capitalism credit for some of it's achievements?

[B5C]

Got any sources, perhaps poll data, to back this up? Because it seems like hyperbole derived from anecdotes and the fabricated reality of the media. As far as I can remember, polls routinely showed that most Americans actually do want universal health care, with support only dropping in the wake of a huge media blitz to discredit Obamacare.

Here are some sources:
http://news.yahoo.com/young-millennials-fiscal-conservatives-144054323--election.html
http://www.gallup.com/poll/158966/majority-against-gov-healthcare-guarantee.aspx

The rise of the young Libertarian movement is a troubling sign in the United States. Heck I will say that the Young Libertarian movement is united and more stronger than the Socialists or the communists.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

What would be the best? Oppose Obamacare and let insurance deny me coverage because I got cancer? This is the United States of America. Most Americans are not ready or don't accept any fiscal liberal or any left wing ideal. Americans are fiscally conservative & socially liberal. My home state is a big example of that. "We want more money to education, but I don't want my taxes raised to pay for it!"
Clearly we must challenge the bourgeois conceptions of the "fiscal liberal or any left wing ideal". So how can we reach these working Americans? One of our concerns should be to promote the growth of socialist class consciousness, which can only be obtained in the active struggle against capitalism. But your plan doesn't seem to go beyond defending the "gains" of the health care bill. Furthermore, to oppose "Obamacare" does not mean that the only other option is to support insurance denial; it's to ruthlessly expose the weaknesses of Obama's measure and counter their program with one of our own. If socialists keep providing such "critical" support of these austerity measures like you're doing, we will lose all credibility with the working class.

During a long period of political reaction, it may seem like any semblance of a "progressive" policy is attractive in order to alleviate the misery of workers. But defending "gains" of certain bills as an end in itself will not put us closer to building a revolutionary party. Instead, all you're doing is pragmatically adapting to the bourgeoisie's playbook to justify your own inaction and lack of perspective beyond "working with what we have".

[B5C]

Clearly we must challenge the bourgeois conceptions of the "fiscal liberal or any left wing ideal". So how can we reach these working Americans? One of our concerns should be to promote the growth of socialist class consciousness, which can only be obtained in the active struggle against capitalism. But your plan doesn't seem to go beyond defending the "gains" of the health care bill. Furthermore, to oppose "Obamacare" does not mean that the only other option is to support insurance denial; it's to ruthlessly expose the weaknesses of Obama's measure and counter their program with one of our own. If socialists keep providing such "critical" support of these austerity measures like you're doing, we will lose all credibility with the working class.

During a long period of political reaction, it may seem like any semblance of a "progressive" policy is attractive in order to alleviate the misery of workers. But defending "gains" of certain bills as an end in itself will not put us closer to building a revolutionary party. Instead, all you're doing is pragmatically adapting to the bourgeoisie's playbook to justify your own inaction and lack of perspective beyond "working with what we have".

The main problem is that we are all fighting each other on who is the best Marxist to lead a revolutionary party. Us fighting is not going to create "critical" support against austerity and the capitalists. A lot of Americans look at us and turn away in disgust because we like to fight a lot against our selves.

[MarxArchist]

Actually it is better than what we had before.

We had NONE of these before the law.

Businesses have been trying to get rid of giving health benefits to their workers for DECADES. Obamacare was just the easiest excuse by employers to justify the reasons to cut or just take the damage.

Propaganda straight from whitehouse.gov

The first and fifth "benefits" are basically the same. The second "benefit" COBRA already covered.



Not excluding children under the age of 19 is only possible because millions upon millions of healthy people will be paying into insurance, people who won't be using it. This way the insurance companies still make a killing $ but this isnt a reason to praise the law. Fascism had some benefits for citizens in Italy and Germany, shall we advocate fascism now?

Preventative care is already pushed by insurance companies because, you know, the healthier you are the more profits they make.

There was already laws preventing insurance companies from dropping policy holders when they get sick and they'll find ways around the new laws just as they did with the old.

Medicare is being expanded? What a sick fucking joke. They're cutting hundreds of billions of dollars from Medicare/Medicaid.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

The main problem is that we are all fighting each other on who is the best Marxist to lead a revolutionary party. Us fighting is not going to create "critical" support against austerity and the capitalists. A lot of Americans look at us and turn away in disgust because we like to fight a lot against our selves.
So, in the wake of the revolutionary left being splintered, your solution is to do nothing at all?

If Americans "look at us" only to "turn away", it's because the Marxist left has no meaningful presence in the working class. Parties that either call themselves Marxist or otherwise largely function as "critical" boosters of the union leadership and the bourgeois left. To the extent that socialists have any influence in unions at all, they are only allowed there unless they step out of line and actually attempt to organize opposition or promote the growth of a dedicated cadre. Other parties, while adopting "orthodox" stances, do absolutely nothing beyond journalism, such as the Northist SEP. Workers who have written to them in the past call for help and advice in their struggles and all they get are lectures regarding the union bureaucracy and how they must "break" with them.

In this diseased setup, I do not find the possibility of mass disillusionment among American workers surprising. And in my opinion, theoretical stances like yours are part of the problem. Rather than oppose the misconceptions of socialism among workers, you passively accept them as given and simply content yourself with the notion that we will not be able to reach workers until we stop "fighting amongst ourselves". You are, as Trotsky once said, "worshiping the accomplished fact". This a pragmatic position that dooms us to abstentionism, and I don't think it speaks well of your self-awarded title of "Intellectual Marxist". That is, unless you're convinced that the way to overthrowing capitalism is defending one austerity policy out of many more to come on the internet.

[MarxArchist]

GmT5SPyHeAA

I have a bucket list and on it I've listed spitting in these two guys faces. The ammount of disdain I feel for people who claim to represent the interests of the working class who are really agents of capital is tremendous.

[Klaatu]

MarxArchist and Red Commissar

I see your point. But I also see a (needed) systematic attack upon the established (corrupt) Capitalist health care monstrosity.
As B5C has pointed out, there are a curtailment of abuses (step one) a 'roundup' of non-payers entering into
the system (step two) and a future takeover of 'private' money-grubbers (step three, not implemented yet)

The result will be a true peoples' health care system, not a for-profit evil empire of blood-letters

[MarxArchist]

MarxArchist and Red Commissar

I see your point. But I also see a (needed) systematic attack upon the established (corrupt) Capitalist health care monstrosity.
As B5C has pointed out, there are a curtailment of abuses (step one) a 'roundup' of non-payers entering into
the system (step two) and a future takeover of 'private' money-grubbers (step three, not implemented yet)

The result will be a true peoples' health care system, not a for-profit evil empire of blood-letters

No the end result will not be a "peoples healthcare". This law cemented the privatization of healthcare...forever. Please stop listening to Micheal Moore. Please? On my knees here.....with my hands folded in front of me.

[Klaatu]

No the end result will not be a "peoples healthcare". This law cemented the privatization of healthcare...forever. Please stop listening to Micheal Moore. Please? On my knees here.....with my hands folded in front of me.

I respectfully disagree. I can see it where more and more people will simply demand a government takeover.
This is because of the outrageously rising profits and inefficiencies of the private health industry. Please read:

Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us
http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/20/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/

[Lucretia]

I can sense you are using this product: You are right. I never had cancer, but I have family and friends who do or had cancer. I know their struggle to try to pay medical bills and pay bills. For example my uncle two weeks ago got diagnosed for leukemia. Now they are worried of trying to keep two foster kids and their own house because they don't trust my uncle's employer to keep my uncle employed. Also note they are getting paperwork ready for Medicaid just in case he loses his job because he knows he has an high chance of being covered under "Obamacare" than the previous system.

Outside my friends and family. I've seen how the poor struggle to get insurance or pay. I used to be a account manager for a major rent-to-own business. I repo things if they don't pay their rent. Once day I had to repo an entire house because she had gotten breast cancer and her insurance company denied her because she had reach her cap. That was a sad day for me because I didn't want to repo her washer and dryer, all her beds, and her oven. When I left her house. She had no stove to eat or a bed for her and her kids to sleep on. I think that was the day that taught me about capitalism the most.


Really want to start the how poor you all fight? I only make 18,000 a year working for the 2nd biggest discount retailer for the nation. I barely work enough hours to get basic health insurance. Which is only an HSA account. HSA are health savings accounts. You put money in a special tax free account and you pay for EVERYTHING out of pocket up to 2,000 a year before the insurance kicks in. This is what major companies are moving towards. Also add that my wife works too, but she makes about 10,000 year as a contractor. That means I have to pay my wife's income, SS, and Medicare taxes out of my paycheck because my wife's employers is to damn lazy to file her W-4. Also add that I live with my in-laws because my pay doesn't even afford a studio apartment where I live. My wife doesn't have health insurance because I can't afford the extra $90 partner fee, but I did get her some dental.

Sounds like you are blaming Obama because your employers decided to accelerate the plan of not to offer benefits anymore. Employers were going to get rid of our benefits anyway. Also note Universal Healthcare (Socialized Medicine) would have NEVER pass that congress nor today's congress. Remember, progressive Democrats did try to pass a single payer bill during Obamacare but the Democratic leadership killed it.

If I was in congress I would vote no out of principle and because we are forced to buy private insurance. Yet, I was not a congressman or an senator and we have to deal with the issue now. The system is better than it used to be. That is the truth. You don't like it that I give credit where it is due. Well I am sorry you can not accept that. Just because we are anti-capitalists we can't give credit when a capitalist does something a big better for the working class in a once in a century. Was Marx wrong to give capitalism credit for some of it's achievements?

Water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink. This is a lot of smoke-blowing that doesn't contain anything substantive to rebut what I am saying. It literally reads like it was written by some functionary on the Obama 2012 campaign staff.

As much as you want to call it a strawman, my point stands -- Obamacare has directly affected my employer-based health-care plan (shared by thousands of other employees) in an adverse way, reducing coverage and making it more expensive. Your counter to this is that you have an uncle who was diagnosed with leukemia (which, by the way, I am sorry to hear), and this uncle has a better chance at receiving coverage because Obamacare allows states to opt in for Medicaid expansion. Really? Which state does your father live in? Did the state choose to opt into the opportunity for expanded coverage or not? Many have already opted NOT to expand Medicaid. Would your uncle has been eligible even without the expanded coverage?

Even if we assume the best possible scenario, and your uncle can receive care he would otherwise have been unable to receive without Obamacare, you're missing the point entirely. That for every uncle like yours there are ten people like me, who will end up paying more to receive less or, in the case of all the newly mandated young people who will now be customers of Aetna, perhaps not even receive anything at all.

As previous posters in this thread have stated, Obamacare provides some fig leaves for liberals to point to as "proof" of how much better the system will now supposedly be. But these are fig leaves nevertheless. You know what a fig leaf is, right? It's the lovely piece of greenery that covers up a statue's naughty bits. That way, all the puritanical prudes can walk by, not be disturbed by something as horrifying as human anatomy, and yet still be able to talk of the artistic use of "nature," indifferent to the obscene way that nature is being hidden.

Those fig leaves are the provisions relating to Medicaid expansion, ability to stay on a parent's health plan until age 26, etc. They make the law look downright progressive, at least when you ignore the existence of all those dirty little provisions underlying the leaves. Which also happened to be the result of backroom deals that O cut with the very companies that you know and love. The most notorious provision, of course, is the much-talked-about mandate: the requirement that everybody who is not already covered by a government plan (the elderly, the military and other government employees, and the indigent) purchase a private plan from companies that will face no meaningful price controls, lest the "consumer" either be fined or, in rare cases where a person can find NO health plan that costs less than 8% of a person's income, receive some subsidies from the government (or simply continue going without insurance altogether, which is the more likely scenario considering that an estimated 30 million people will continue to be uninsured even with Obamacare fully implemented).

The basic premise of the mandate is to increase the pool of insured people to encompass those less likely to have serious ailments (people paying money to insurance companies and receiving nothing but a certificate in return) in exchange for forcing the insurance companies to cover the really, really, really sick people, which is of course an expensive proposition. This might sound progressive, until you remember that the vast majority of those healthy people who are going to be a part of the expanded pool are workers with very little money to spare on insurance they are being forced to purchase precisely because they are expected NOT to use it. As somebody who seems sympathetic to welfare-liberal politics, you might understand the scheme better if I put it this way: it's like a progressive income tax, except healthier and younger demographics of the population are standing in for the rich. Sound progressive now?

Without even getting to the other horrid provisions of the law, such as the half-trillion-dollar gutting of Medicare, the mandate alone is reason for opposition. It represents a giant give-away to corporations, either through government subsidies to pay for unnecessarily costly and unusable "insurance," or as is going to be true in the vast majority of cases, through forced payment directly from people like you and me. The mechanism through which this give-away is transmitted is the locking-in, on a permanent basis, of a private-insurance model of health-care provision, along with all the attendant evils that people on the left should be fighting against, including incentives to deny care in order to increase profit, and wasted resources on advertising and other commercial overhead. Liberals, and pseudo-leftists on revleft, seem to forget that health insurance is not the same as health care.