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View Full Version : Follow Marxism - fight against Trotskyism!



interrupt_00h
2nd January 2004, 13:10
Well, conflict between Marxists and Trotsky started long before 1927 and even before 1917. Trotsky claimed he took position "between" Bolsheviks and Mensheviks, founding his own "August Bloc". Lenin resisted it. He said that: "Trotsky unites everybody who wants ideological decay" and "unites all enemies of Marxism" (V.I.Lenin, volume 20, pages 45-46).

Trotsky propagated his "theory" of "permanent revolution", which denied alliance between working class and peasants, and denied democratic stage of battle. Lenin classified this "theory" as "Menshevist". Well, knowing that more than 90% of population of Russian Empire were peasants, you understand that this "theory" is doomed to fail.

Because Trotsky supported "April Thesises", Lenin finally agreed to accept Trotsky to Bolshevik party in 1917. Later he wrote that he made a big mistake.

Trotsky was fighting Lenin's ideas about "Brest Peace", about professional unions and other questions of politics. Even before Lenin died, Trotsky founded "Trotskyist opposition", which was hostile to Lenin's ideas. Lenin wrote: "Trotsky shifts, cheats, pretends to be Left, but supports Right-wingers" (V.I.Lenin, Volume 49, page 390). Lenin was fighting Trotskyism, and after Lenin's death, Stalin continued this fight.

Before XV Meeting there was two platforms to be voted for: first one was developed by Central Comittee under Stalin's command, second was developed by Trotskyist opposition (Zinoviev and Kamenev also joined it). There was 730,862 members of Party who voted. 724,066 voted for Stalin's program, 4120 (0.5%) voted for Trotsky's program, 2676 (0.3%) voted for neither.

International communist organisation - Comintern - supported expulsion of Trotskyists.

In 1929 year Trotsky was exiled out of Soviet Union. He had no support in Soviet worker masses, so he found nothing better to say that "revolution is betrayed".

Trotsky's main thesis - impossibility of creation of Socialism (society without capitalists, first stage of Communism) in single country. In his concept, working class must take power and wait while revolutions start in all other countries, supporting those revolutions, and only after that think about building socialism. Well, you can see that this "tactic" was not good for workers, but good for capitalists and kulaks, who will wait for "world revolution" for indefinite amount of time. OF COURSE workers and peasants of USSR, who were fighting for equalty and social justice, supported Stalin, who wanted to start building socialism now, not Trotsky.

Well, after being exiled, he started to oppose politics of VKP(b) in all fields. His "Bulletin of Opposition" demanded dismantle of collective and goverment farms, stopping of industrialisation, and even ban of Stakhanovite movement (Documents of the Fourth International, 1933-40, New York, 1973, page 213).

Also, in his article "New Constitution of USSR", he propagated, that capitalist political parties must be allowed in USSR (Politique de Trotsky. Textes choisis et presentes par Jean Baechler. Paris, 1968, page 146).

That was not just empty claims - Trotsky created underground organisation in USSR, which official goal was overthrowing Soviet Power.

All this sabotage of socialism Trotsky was making under slogan of "back to Lenin". If you remember, slogans "back to Lenin" were later used by traitor Gorbachev and his capitalist thugs in late 80ies - this ended in break-up of USSR and return of capitalist system. Fortunately, real Marxists managed to stop same process (initiated by Trotsky) in 30ies by showing real face of Trotsky's pro-capialist programs. But that was inside of USSR, outside of USSR Trotsky's subversion continuned.

Trotsky tried to recruit people who were for some reasons were kicked out of Communist Parties of capitalist countries. Well, you know what Trotskyists began doing after failure of Trotskyists. Suvarin became journalist of right-wing anti-communist newspaper "Figaro", and Ruth Fisher, living in USA was helping Committee of Anti-American Activities (American organisation for fighting Communism) by denouncing his own brother - German Communist Gerhard Eisler. Well, know you see the real face of Trotsky's friends.

Workers of the world looked at USSR with hope, seeing that there can be life without unemployment, capitalists, bankers, landlors, corrupt bureaucrats. Trotsky gave up his attempts to criticise Soviet Power, instead making some fakes, which were published in capitalist newspapers (and, after return of capitalism to Russia, are publihed in capitalist newspapers of Russia). Few people believed this anti-communist propaganda. Talented writers (like Herbert Wells) and other people who visited Soviet Union, revealed truth about Socialist Country, truth that Trotsky could not accept.

Trotsky was valued by capitalists highly. In his articles in capitalist newspaper, he claimed that it is IMPOSSIBLE to build Socialism in USSR ("forgetting" the fact that Socialism in USSR was already built) and even ASKED WORKERS OF THE WORLD TO FIGHT AGAINST SOVIET UNION AND COMINTERN!!!

Capitalists were very happy to have such an ally! Books and articles of Trotsky were printed by CAPITALIST publishing agencies in millions of copies!

Seeing such support, Trotsky finally decided to found 4th Internationale. 3th September of 1938 there was conference of this new Internationale, consisted of 21 (!!!) Trotskyists. Conference worked for only one day and accepted documents, already written by Trotsky long time ago.

But REAL face 4th Internationale was seen during Second World War.

Nazis in Germany, fascists in Italy and militarists in Japan started global war. German already annexed several countries, and official nazi propaganda claimed population of annexed countries as "lower race of slaves". In this situation, Communist Parties of the world supported tactic of protecting national independance of invaded countries.

Guess what Trotskyists did? Trotsky said: "Victory of Britain and France is even worse, than victory of Hitler and Mussolini" (Manifesto of the Fourth International on the imperialist war and the proletarian revolution. New York, 1940, page 44). Trotsky openly supported Hitler. Now, let's see his actions.

When Nazis invaded Czhechoslovakia to annex it and slaughter hundreds of thousands of "untermenschen", Trotsky said, that war is not important question, "not worthy to take attention of Marxists", and he said that Czechoslovakia must not resist and CAPITULATE TO NAZIS. Now, THAT'S the fate he offered for Czech and Slovak workers - extermination in Nazi concentration camps! He called worker's resistance to Nazis a "social-patriotic sophistics".

Stalin's Cominern took diametric position - it supported resistance movement and was against capitulation.

So, you can see two lines: Trotskyist line for capitulation to nazis and alliance with fascists; and Stalinist line - support of resitance against nazi enslavement.

But that is not all. When nazis invaded France, its goverment and rich capitalist elite decided not to fight agressor. Seeing this, French Communists asked people to take up arms against nazi invaders and fight back. Supported by Stalin, French Communists created People's Committees of Resistance. In this partisan war, French Communist Party lost many people, more than 75,000 of members of Party.

French Trotskyists took another tactic. Trotsky made short article and distributed it as a leaflet. What Trotsky said in this article? Trotsky said, that submitting to nazism and nazi occupation of France is "LESSER EVIL"!!! Military resistance against nazis Trotsky called "uncompatible with internationalism"!!!

That is not just empty claims of old fascist Trotsky. 4th Internationale during occupation asked Trotsky's supporters to serve in collaborationist organs: for example, many Trotskyists joined legions of "french volunteers", which were formed by nazis to fight French Resistance. Nazis were happy, they ALLOWED Trotskyists meetings in France and even conference of European sections of 4th Internationale. Trotskyist literature was published in nazi-controlled France without problems.

Well, soon after that, nazis invaded USSR. Oh, how happy Trotsky was! He tried to support nazis with real actions. Trotskyists cells in USA and Britain initiated strikes on military factories, claiming that THEY FIGHT AGAINST SUPPLYING SOVIET UNION WITH WEAPONS!!!

Trotsky took part in such acts of anti-communist sabotage personally. Since 1939, he was supplying Comittee for Anti-American Activities (anti-communist organisation) with information, he wrote: "I accept your proposal, seeing that it is my political duty". Well, you see: Trotsky openly accepted that his political duty is fighting against Soviet Union. Also, he gave lists of underground Mexican Communists to this Committee.

Well, here you see: Trotsky supported nazis and american anti-communist police and break-up international workers' movement. Even arch-traitor Vlasov is an angel compared to evil bandit Trotsky.

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr
2nd January 2004, 13:41
YET ANOTHER Stalin vs. Trotsky thread....
http://imageshack.us/files/barney.gif

James
2nd January 2004, 13:43
oh how fun!

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=dinosaur/v=2/l=IVI/*-http://www.oum.ox.ac.uk/dinosaur.jpg

RED FIRE
2nd January 2004, 15:05
"and'... many regular usesers seem to forget miserably, that there are many diffrent usesers joining Che-lives, every day, to discus the topic's that arise of Marxism and etc...

Scottish_Militant
2nd January 2004, 15:42
Wow!

This new guy has brought such enritched and original discussion to the forum. Even though I am an evil nazi trot I must take my hat off to him. Now back to my CIA duties...

Pedro Alonso Lopez
2nd January 2004, 15:56
They are both dead!

Time to move on.

Trotsky is so much cooler though...

James
2nd January 2004, 16:49
better facial hair

YKTMX
2nd January 2004, 17:52
Welcome to the board - you fucking idiot.

Scottish_Militant
2nd January 2004, 18:14
Welcome to the board - you fucking idiot.

lol :lol:

Bolshevika
2nd January 2004, 18:17
Excellent post interrupt, I hope you post more often on this board.

Ignore the Trotskyists, they haven't had their morning juice.

Soviet power supreme
2nd January 2004, 18:36
Good post but I have heard 7000 voted for Trotsky instead of 4210.

Ps ignore these hippies who only wants to desroy any discussion on this board by sayin it is old.When the revolution comes they will be staying in home playing with their dinosaurs.

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr
2nd January 2004, 19:11
Yes, Marxist discussion is great, but debating weather Trotsky was a fascist agent or not for the 100000th time is totally counter-productive. So I must be getting back to my dinosaurs.
http://imageshack.us/files/dinosfriends.jpg

Mike Fakelastname
2nd January 2004, 19:39
I never knew Trotsky was so bad... I am totally changing my beliefs just because of that post.

The Lenin/Trotsky disagreement didn't last all throughout their relationship, what you quoted is old stuff. I don't want to argue with you because you know more about it than me. But you're still misinformed...

Edit: After reading the last few paragraphs of yours, I'm going to change my opinion of you: I'm smarter than you, I know more than you, you're an idiot.

Saint-Just
2nd January 2004, 21:25
I was aware Trotsky informed upon 'Stalinists'.

I was not aware that the Nazis allowed the publishing of Trotsky's works, however it is not surprising when you consider this Josef Geobbels quote:

‘See, my friends, what Trotsky is saying about the Soviet state. It is no longer a Socialist State but a state dominated by a parasitic bureaucracy, living on the Russian people’ - Josef Goebbels

And, Trotsky liked the Nazis too:

"Hitler is a much better human being than Stalin. Atleast Hitler has an ideology and is charismatic, Stalin is just bureaucratic and dull"- Trotsky

toastedmonkey
2nd January 2004, 22:25
Good post, i wasnt aware trotsky was a nazi symphasier.
Did you write the article yourelf?

Comrades please remember that generally people want to join to further there understandings and to help others.

Do not put a comrade down on their first post.

Do you expect them to know the entire contents of every post ever made on Che-Lives, and not to mention any of these because its old?

Xprewatik RED
2nd January 2004, 22:34
Stop this religion! Stop worshipping idols! Both men are dead, both were murderors. Stalinists go get your quotes from your western stalinists websites, and trotskyists from your own websites; it doesn't make any difference both sides are tainted like much of history! So stop your idol worship. Stalin didn't care for the workers he signed away Poland remember? Molotov-Ribbentrop pact? He signed away half of Poland remember?

Soviet power supreme
2nd January 2004, 23:43
We are not idolising or worshipping them.I dont wear Stalin moustaches.We just talk how they improved the Marxism-Leninism and what they did.

What is it about that pact?

Stalin needed the time to build up the army.So if he wouldnt have sign that and defended the Poland what would have happened?The fucking USA,France,UK would have attacked to Soviet Union when the Nazis would have started the war against the USSR.But since he signed it,Hitler attacked to west.

commie kg
3rd January 2004, 03:46
I think the point people are trying to make here by saying that this is a pointless thread is: Here at che-lives, we are looking towards the future. Both Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism and Marxism-Leninism-Trotskyism are dead dogmas. They'll do us no good at all. This debate might be fun in a historical sense... The first 3 times it's posted. There have been many different postings on the subject, just search the archives.

Bolshevika
3rd January 2004, 05:12
The people here on Che-Lives represent the future?! THEN THERE IS NO FUTURE.

If you call socialism wearing a Che shirt, smoking marijuana, and crying about Tibet, then fuck me running the american brand of socialism h
as no hope.

Marxism-Leninism is not dead. Just look at all the revolutions being fought based on its (mostly Maoist chapter) principles: Peru, Colombia, Nepal (especially), and many other countries. Maybe liberalism is popular in the United States and other degenerated western countries where a socialist revolution at this moment is a pipedream. The third world, the real oppressed peoples of the world, are revolting with the banners of Marx Lenin Stalin and Chairman Mao.

Even in the United States we have a large impact. Who exactly do you think organized the ANSWER coalition? Most of the anti-racism demonstrations? Pro-immigrant rallies? www.Workers.org the sporters of the "dead" ideology, the only authentic communist party in America.

SonofRage
3rd January 2004, 06:29
"War is not the Answer, but neither is A.N.S.W.E.R"

What you should know about the Workers World Party, The International Action Center and A.N.S.W.E.R. (http://www.infoshop.org/texts/wwp.html)

:D

El Brujo
3rd January 2004, 06:51
You make an excellent addition to this forum, interrupt.

Chewillneverdie
3rd January 2004, 07:28
lol im sure bolsh is referring to me, Bolsh i wear my jean jacket everywhere with a Rage quote and a pic of a zapitista on the back. I dont believe in smoking pot, and i donate plenty of money to the tibet cause so fuck off.

Scottish_Militant
3rd January 2004, 12:17
You make an excellent addition to this forum, interrupt.

Your statement would be true if having a lot of pubic lice was 'excellent' ;)

Bolshevika
3rd January 2004, 22:31
Wow "dude" you sure are showing everyone how much of a rebel you truly are. I do not see how giving money to a group of counter revolutionary feudalists does anything positive, however, you do whatever you want.

Bad Grrrl Agro
4th January 2004, 00:02
if you really want to be true to marx set your differences with theTrotskyites aside and focus on fighting the true enemies of class justice which are obvisously the capitalists and facists!!!

Guerilla22
9th January 2004, 06:53
EXCELLENT POINT PETEY!
The problem with arguing Marx-Trotsky, Lenin-Trotsky, and Stalin-Trotsky is that it's like arguing about the US Civil War, it's done time to move along.

Now I'm not knocking the person who posted this, simply because he/she had the best intentions in mind by trying to pass on information he/she had aquired to the masses.

My only suggestion would be to lean away from popular myth and rumors. The thing that makes socialism work is unity and a rift among our ranks only serves to work our best interest of establishing socialism for the masses.

I call for all socialist across the globe to unite and work together to defeat the real enemy: FACISM and IMPERIALISM! (just to re-iderate what Petey said)