SYRIZA Occupies Greek Finance Ministry Office

[Die Neue Zeit]

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/02/14/protesters-occupy-greek-finance-ministry-office/



By Andy Dabilis

Angry over his statements that the Greek minimum wage is too high and should be further reduced despite a 22 percent previous cut, demonstrators took over the office of Finance Ministry General Secretary Giorgos Mergos on the morning of Feb. 14, media reports said.

They were identified as members of the youth organization of the major opposition party Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA), which is opposed to ongoing austerity measures being imposed by the government.

Mergos later said his comments were misinterpreted and that he didn’t say what he said. The protesters didn’t buy the backing up. “The only answer to those who are planning to impose new measures designed to impoverish workers and young people is collective and defiant struggles to overturn the government and the memorandums,” they said in a statement. Riot police, the government’s tactic against protesters and strikers, were sent to the scene.

Public Order Minister Nikos Dendias ordered an administrative inquiry into allegations that two SYRIZA Members of Parliament were beaten up by police during an anti-austerity protest outside the finance ministry building. SYRIZA MPs Kostas Barkas and Vangelis Diamantopoulos claimed they were attacked by members of the MAT riot squad and would sue, Kathimerini reported.

SYRIZA issued a statement defending what it said was “a symbolic protest” against the government’s austerity drive and slamming alleged police violence. (The government) seems to think that by using force and state oppression against those who resist it will be able to ensure the continuation of the barbaric austerity policies of the memorandum,” the statement said.

Government spokesman Simos Kedikoglou said the protesters damaged Mergos’s office after storming the building and accused SYRIZA chief Alexis Tsipras of “duplicity.” Invading an office, stealing and damaging property, Kedikoglou said, “is perfectly in line with the strategy of tension that Tsipras purports to condemn.”

In an interview with BBC’s Paul Mason, Tsipras accused the Greek government of operating a strategy of “blackmail, terrorism and tension.” The Greek Communist Party (KKE) issued a statement expressing its support for SYRIZA’s protest.

Earlier, SYRIZA leaders said Prime Minister Antonis Samaras is intent on reducing wages to the level paid workers in Romania and Bulgaria. The storm of criticism over Mergos’ comments led Finance Minister Yiannis Stournaras to deny there are no plans to further reduce the minimum wage, which is now 586 euros ($782) per month, or $195.50 per week ($4.88 per hour) although SYRIZA said the government will later proceed to do so.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Is there any information about which section of that party did this action? There are a few genuinely revolutionary tendencies of that party and the fact they managed to pull this off without being condemned by the main party suggests that there is a possibility it might be radicalized. I've heard that the Communist Organization of Greece is doing some principled revolutionary work within that party but then again most of my information on them comes from Kasama and they are known as the Brezhnivites of the Maoist movement.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Per the article, it's the youth section. It did what the KKE didn't have the spine to do at the height of the anti-austerity protests, when they refused to "Occupy" the Greek parliament.

[Delenda Carthago]

Per the article, it's the youth section. It did what the KKE didn't have the spine to do at the height of the anti-austerity protests, when they refused to "Occupy" the Greek parliament.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

you people are seriously messed up in your head. FOR REAL!:laugh::laugh:

[piet11111]

The main SYRIZA organization is as reformist as they come but it seems the youth branch has some potential.

And for Delenda Carthago what has the KKE done that deserves to be called revolutionary ?
I will freely admit that as far as the KKE goes news of their actions is extremely scarce here but what i do hear is nothing to be celebrated.
So please tell me what the KKE is up to these days.

[Delenda Carthago]

The main SYRIZA organization is as reformist as they come but it seems the youth branch has some potential.

And for Delenda Carthago what has the KKE done that deserves to be called revolutionary ?
I will freely admit that as far as the KKE goes news of their actions is extremely scarce here but what i do hear is nothing to be celebrated.
So please tell me what the KKE is up to these days.
You know, boring stuff. Organising strikes, fighting to level up the organisasion level of the working class, passing the propaganda as much as we can in wider audiences, getting arrested every once in a while, clashing with the cops every now and then. All that stuff that I know they make you get bored.

You have to wait a litle longer to see us pick up the guns again after 1949. Perhaps not very much longer, but for sure not yet.

But whenever it is, we ll try to entairtain you the best we can, you can count on that. Cause thats what its all about after all...riot and war porn.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

The main SYRIZA organization is as reformist as they come but it seems the youth branch has some potential.

And for Delenda Carthago what has the KKE done that deserves to be called revolutionary ?
I will freely admit that as far as the KKE goes news of their actions is extremely scarce here but what i do hear is nothing to be celebrated.
So please tell me what the KKE is up to these days.

Didn't PAME occupy(or try to) the Ministry of Labor at the end of January? I mean if we're saying what SYRIZA did was "revolutionary" surely we could point to many times the KKE and it's affiliates have occupied governmental buildings in protest.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Except they didn't. They refused to "Occupy" the Greek parliament when they had their chance, and comrades should note that this is the cops controversy I alluded to. In the height of the Occupy protests, the sloganeering atop the Parthenon, and so on, they had their chance.

[Delenda Carthago]

Except they didn't. They refused to "Occupy" the Greek parliament when they had their chance, and comrades should note that this is the cops controversy I alluded to. In the height of the Occupy protests, the sloganeering atop the Parthenon, and so on, they had their chance.
Of doing what exactly? Starting a civil war on a period the working class movement was far, far from ready for it? Are you serious?

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/02/14/protesters-occupy-greek-finance-ministry-office/



By Andy Dabilis

Angry over his statements that the Greek minimum wage is too high and should be further reduced despite a 22 percent previous cut, demonstrators took over the office of Finance Ministry General Secretary Giorgos Mergos on the morning of Feb. 14, media reports said.

They were identified as members of the youth organization of the major opposition party Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA), which is opposed to ongoing austerity measures being imposed by the government.

Mergos later said his comments were misinterpreted and that he didn’t say what he said. The protesters didn’t buy the backing up. “The only answer to those who are planning to impose new measures designed to impoverish workers and young people is collective and defiant struggles to overturn the government and the memorandums,” they said in a statement. Riot police, the government’s tactic against protesters and strikers, were sent to the scene.

Public Order Minister Nikos Dendias ordered an administrative inquiry into allegations that two SYRIZA Members of Parliament were beaten up by police during an anti-austerity protest outside the finance ministry building. SYRIZA MPs Kostas Barkas and Vangelis Diamantopoulos claimed they were attacked by members of the MAT riot squad and would sue, Kathimerini reported.

SYRIZA issued a statement defending what it said was “a symbolic protest” against the government’s austerity drive and slamming alleged police violence. (The government) seems to think that by using force and state oppression against those who resist it will be able to ensure the continuation of the barbaric austerity policies of the memorandum,” the statement said.

Government spokesman Simos Kedikoglou said the protesters damaged Mergos’s office after storming the building and accused SYRIZA chief Alexis Tsipras of “duplicity.” Invading an office, stealing and damaging property, Kedikoglou said, “is perfectly in line with the strategy of tension that Tsipras purports to condemn.”

In an interview with BBC’s Paul Mason, Tsipras accused the Greek government of operating a strategy of “blackmail, terrorism and tension.” The Greek Communist Party (KKE) issued a statement expressing its support for SYRIZA’s protest.

Earlier, SYRIZA leaders said Prime Minister Antonis Samaras is intent on reducing wages to the level paid workers in Romania and Bulgaria. The storm of criticism over Mergos’ comments led Finance Minister Yiannis Stournaras to deny there are no plans to further reduce the minimum wage, which is now 586 euros ($782) per month, or $195.50 per week ($4.88 per hour) although SYRIZA said the government will later proceed to do so.

It only shows how lucky the Working Class is that the Conservatives won over SYRIZA in the last elections. And what is better, there are three more years of Rightist Bourgeois governance bound to continue increase class antagonisms, heightening the class struggle and producing more tensions like this that can boil over into revolutionary action. But here I agree with what I believe Comrade DelendaCarthago was trying to say, that the Greek Left needs to build more infrastructure and organize deeper into society the next weeks/months. The only hope is that Greece stays away from Bourgeois Martial Law the next months/years!

[Ravachol]

You know what amuses me the most? The guy calling for anarchists to be handed over to the fucking cops and being almost more vocal than Delenda in defending the KKE over the events of October 20th 2011 now giving them a hard time because his favorite social democrats decided to occupy something else than a place in the bourgeois pantheon. :laugh:

[l'Enfermé]

You know what amuses me the most? The guy calling for anarchists to be handed over to the fucking cops and being almost more vocal than Delenda in defending the KKE over the events of October 20th 2011 now giving them a hard time because his favorite social democrats decided to occupy something else than a place in the bourgeois pantheon. :laugh:
Yes, I agree with you very much. DNZ was very wrong during that incident. Molotov-hurling thugs that attack KKE rallies should be punished more severely, handing them over to the cops was far too merciful. They actually take pride in being arrested, how is that punishment at all? Shame on you, DNZ.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Is this thread seriously about a symbolic office occupation?
Did somebody actually just posit a symbolic office occupation as "genuinely revolutionary"?

What the fuck is this board coming to? What next?

CFS members attend peaceful Idle No More rally - ANTICOLONIAL STRUGGLE IS EXPLODING IN CANADA.

gtfo.

[Ravachol]

Yes, I agree with you very much. DNZ was very wrong during that incident. Molotov-hurling thugs that attack KKE rallies should be punished more severely, handing them over to the cops was far too merciful. They actually take pride in being arrested, how is that punishment at all? Shame on you, DNZ.

You make my case against left-unity and 'one big movement' so much easier :)

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Molotov-hurling thugs that attack KKE rallies

Uh, maybe my memory is foggy, but wasn't there something behind the KKE?
Like, I think I remember something about anarchists attacking some building.

I dunno, maybe it reflects the backwardness of struggle here, but usually, when there's a tactical disagreement between anticapitalists in this sort of situation, it gets critiqued after, with words. I would have thought that physically attacking anarchists in defense of whatever building* was probably not a good way to begin a discussion on strategic considerations. Maybe Canadians are just too polite. Next time somebody does something I don't like at a rally, maybe I'll punch them in the face, and it will help us - the radical left generally - develop a better line.

ANYWAY! Why are we talking about KKE/Anarchist punch-ups? Isn't this thread about how awesome it is when SYRIZA do stoopid liberal media stunts and get beaten up by cops? If we're going to talk about KKE or anarchists, let's talk about how they should do some banner drops, or maybe a die-in.

*A KKE office? an immigrant's small shop? Surely, given the KKE response, it must something that would be deeply unprincipled to throw molotovs at!

[Die Neue Zeit]

Of doing what exactly? Starting a civil war on a period the working class movement was far, far from ready for it? Are you serious?

Who said that "occupying" the Greek parliament would be tantamount to civil war? The "symbolic office occupation" that VMC downplays is political action designed to achieve a specific political result. If I were a Greek political organizer, I'd coordinate multiple "symbolic office occupations" with a distinct Occupy theme, not just the Finance Ministry or the Greek parliament itself.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Who said that "occupying" the Greek parliament would be tantamount to civil war? The "symbolic office occupation" that VMC downplays is political action designed to achieve a specific political result. If I were a Greek political organizer, I'd coordinate multiple "symbolic office occupations" with a distinct Occupy theme, not just the Finance Ministry or the Greek parliament itself.

I don't mean to "downplay" it. It's fine. I've occupied many offices. Probably I'll do it again. The thing is, it's not a big deal. It doesn't even sound like it was pulled off well. They got dragged out and beaten by police, without even defending themselves, and the whole thing lasted . . . the length of a protest? So, an hour or two? Does that even count as an occupation? I bet it sets an example of political action that others are just itching to follow.
Further, strategically, what purpose does it serve? What message does it send? As far as I can tell, it makes the left look like defenseless losers with martyr complexes. Like we needed to demonstrate that for the public. Some "political result".

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Is this thread seriously about a symbolic office occupation?
Did somebody actually just posit a symbolic office occupation as "genuinely revolutionary"?

What the fuck is this board coming to? What next?

CFS members attend peaceful Idle No More rally - ANTICOLONIAL STRUGGLE IS EXPLODING IN CANADA.

gtfo.

Have you ever heard of testing the foundations and strength of the bourgeois State? A demonstrative action against the arrogant child-lunch-butchers like this can inspire countless of people to join sides with the Socialists and Communists, making the Bourgeoisie sweat severely and possibly grind on any division they might have.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Have you ever heard of testing the foundations and strength of the bourgeois State? A demonstrative action against the arrogant child-lunch-butchers like this can inspire countless of people to join sides with the Socialists and Communists, making the Bourgeoisie sweat severely and possibly grind on any division they might have.

Good demonstrative actions end in victory, not getting dragged out by the cops after failing to hold the space for even a day.
If you want to "inspire" people, self-sacrificial masochism is not a good means.

So, for example, occupying a landlords office to win a victory for a tenant is likely to win something for that tenant. Occupying an MPs office to get a law changed? Probably not going to get a law changed. That's fine - there can be other victories within that - say, holding the space and demonstrating some sort of power. Or stealing documents and releasing them to the public. Or, or, or.

Getting pummeled, then whining about it and threatening to sue (ha!), is not inspiring.

[Delenda Carthago]

Who said that "occupying" the Greek parliament would be tantamount to civil war?
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/suicidetitle.jpg

[Ravachol]

Who said that "occupying" the Greek parliament would be tantamount to civil war? The "symbolic office occupation" that VMC downplays is political action designed to achieve a specific political result. If I were a Greek political organizer, I'd coordinate multiple "symbolic office occupations" with a distinct Occupy theme, not just the Finance Ministry or the Greek parliament itself.

How many symbolic (or otherwise) occupations have you participated in and what 'specific political results' did they yield?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

How many symbolic (or otherwise) occupations have you participated in and what 'specific political results' did they yield?

Just to demonstrate my sincerity:
I once participated in a 20 day occupation of a public square (three years before "Occupy") that was a) an end in itself, but also b) led to the opening of an emergency youth shelter.
Some of my roomies were involved in a five day (?) occupation of a university administration building that resisted eviction, had food delivered by elaborate pully-system, and totally changed the discourse on campus. There are two examples of successful, if not perfect occupations (the former direct action, the latter symbolic). Neither involved getting beat down. Neither demonstrated radicals weaknesses, but rather their strengths. See the difference?

[Die Neue Zeit]

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/suicidetitle.jpg

Obviously you haven't heard of civil disobedience before. :glare:

[Delenda Carthago]

Obviously you haven't heard of civil disobedience before. :glare:
Yes I have. Its when you do a sit down or when you are a black person eating at white people's restaurant. The 3rd biggest party of the country taking over the parliament dont think so that it falls on that category. If you go in, you have to do it the bloody way, the army comes out, you either stand your ground and start a civil war, or you take it like it is and go back to exile and torturing, like you were until 1974.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLpoa6AxQJbOAIkeU0XiVx_IHGaTFVM kDmh04r2391ozoRQeyL


Thanks, but not yet.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Yes I have. Its when you do a sit down or when you are a black person eating at white people's restaurant. T

Pardon me, but isn't giving civil definition a race based definition with this sort of rhetoric a bit racist? I could be wrong and if I am please correct me. Nor is this meant as a jab at DC, I just assume he/she would want to correct his post if this is true.

[Delenda Carthago]

Pardon me, but isn't giving civil definition a race based definition with this sort of rhetoric a bit racist? I could be wrong and if I am please correct me. Nor is this meant as a jab at DC, I just assume he/she would want to correct his post if this is true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_sit-ins

[Crux]

The Greek Communist Party (KKE) issued a statement expressing its support for SYRIZA’s protest.
Just saying.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Yes I have. Its when you do a sit down or when you are a black person eating at white people's restaurant. The 3rd biggest party of the country taking over the parliament dont think so that it falls on that category. If you go in, you have to do it the bloody way, the army comes out, you either stand your ground and start a civil war, or you take it like it is and go back to exile and torturing, like you were until 1974.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLpoa6AxQJbOAIkeU0XiVx_IHGaTFVM kDmh04r2391ozoRQeyL


Thanks, but not yet.

The Army being used against unarmed, peaceful civil-disobedients would create a political crisis.

Civil disobedience in 1960's the US Two-party Dictatorship-of-Capital is a very different thing than in crisis Greece today.

Today, Syriza and KKE (if they showed across-the-board revolutionary political initiative) could be beating down the governing Conserving Party's poll numbers if they properly engaged in exposing the arrogance of the Greek Bourgeoisie through creating disorder and public scandal over the bourgeois crimes which is austerity. Every little exposing comment like this from the arrogant child-lunch-butchers needs to be agitated against!

[Geiseric]

Of doing what exactly? Starting a civil war on a period the working class movement was far, far from ready for it? Are you serious?

Nice strawman! Same for the rest of your posts in this thread. I saw the images, there were definately enough people between the KKE and non KKE to occupy that building, but the KKE made a point of blocking anybody else from that area, objectively assuring the parliamentary session could continue. I've talked with other comrades who were there about this too.

[piet11111]

Nice strawman! Same for the rest of your posts in this thread. I saw the images, there were definately enough people between the KKE and non KKE to occupy that building, but the KKE made a point of blocking anybody else from that area, objectively assuring the parliamentary session could continue. I've talked with other comrades who were there about this too.

He will never admit that the KKE was wrong or was "mistaken".

As far as i suspect the KKE knowingly does its part to prevent a unified response from the Greek workers and manages to get away with it by stating that the workers are not ready, not now and not ever.

[Delenda Carthago]

Nice strawman! Same for the rest of your posts in this thread. I saw the images, there were definately enough people between the KKE and non KKE to occupy that building, but the KKE made a point of blocking anybody else from that area, objectively assuring the parliamentary session could continue. I've talked with other comrades who were there about this too.
I hope your comrades had the gunz ready bro!

Btw, your comrades explained to you why they didnt occupied the parliament the day before where there was 5 times more people and no PAME around?

[Delenda Carthago]

He will never admit that the KKE was wrong or was "mistaken".

As far as i suspect the KKE knowingly does its part to prevent a unified response from the Greek workers and manages to get away with it by stating that the workers are not ready, not now and not ever.
How sweet. An ultrarevolutionary fanboy of reformist SYRIZA. When right wing and left wing opportunism kiss kiss.:lol:

[Geiseric]

I hope your comrades had the gunz ready bro!

Btw, your comrades explained to you why they didnt occupied the parliament the day before where there was 5 times more people and no PAME around?

Maybe because the desired session wasn't going on and they didn't want to waste their time for something that wouldn't warrant a response? I mean isn't that the point of an occupation, to get a response by shutting down something going on?

For example occupying the dmv would stop the dmv from running, and they would need to negotiate with the occupiers, or rush the building, in order to commence driving tests etc.

There were wayy too many people there for the police to rush that building, which would still of have a body of people outside. There would of been a response from all of europe if they could of stopped that session from going on, but they didn't, and whether you like it or not, the KKE assured the bourgeois that their congress could continue.

I don't know where this menshevik "people aren't ready for a revolution," talk is coming from, I would assume that when hundreds of thousands of people are demonstrating, that is pretty ripe for a revolution.

[Delenda Carthago]

Maybe because the desired session wasn't going on and they didn't want to waste their time for something that wouldn't warrant a response? I mean isn't that the point of an occupation, to get a response by shutting down something going on?

For example occupying the dmv would stop the dmv from running, and they would need to negotiate with the occupiers, or rush the building, in order to commence driving tests etc.

There were wayy too many people there for the police to rush that building, which would still of have a body of people outside. There would of been a response from all of europe if they could of stopped that session from going on, but they didn't, and whether you like it or not, the KKE assured the bourgeois that their congress could continue.

I don't know where this menshevik "people aren't ready for a revolution," talk is coming from, I would assume that when hundreds of thousands of people are demonstrating, that is pretty ripe for a revolution.


Seriously, Im going to lose my fuckin hair with the stuff I m reading in here.:cursing:



Maybe because the desired session wasn't going on and they didn't want to waste their time for something that wouldn't warrant a response? I mean isn't that the point of an occupation, to get a response by shutting down something going on?

People were rioting for 4 hours outside of the parliament. 4-freakin-hours. I was there. Back then I was a member of an anarchosyndicalist organisation. We were not even close to thinking that we would even pass the stairs that lead to the parliament, as it is what has happened the rest 45986439823 times there have been massive riots outside of the Parliament. You know why? Because apparently, none of us was ready to die for that at that point. Because thats what happens when people are storming a parliament. Or do you think the bourgeois will stand still with its hands crossed and say "ow well, they occupied it, whatever. Lets drop these politics that are the only way to maintain our survival as Capital and let them be in peace".

The only place on planet earth were people actually thought that this would happen, is revleft.

The day after, not only the people were not as many as the first day, but even more PAME had arranged something 4 hours earlier than anyone else.



here would of been a response from all of europe if they could of stopped that session from going on,

Seriously? Where would it come from buddy? Seriously. That half corpse that is being called "revolutionary Left in Europe"? Groups and parties of 0,05%? Have you any idea what are you talkin about?


I don't know where this menshevik "people aren't ready for a revolution," talk is coming from, I would assume that when hundreds of thousands of people are demonstrating, that is pretty ripe for a revolution.
That may look enormous to you, givin the fact that you probably are used to do demos of 10 people, but trust me, its not even close enough to start a full blown revolution. I dont know if you noticed, but 95% of the people last June voted for staying in EU and Eurozone- let along overthrowing capitalism and go further. 7% of them voted for nazis!
And dont get me started about the level of organisation of the greek working class and the level of rotting PASOK has brought to it for over 30 years.

Does that look like a people ready to do a revolution? Cause to me it looks like a people that still tryes to find a way to make it through the storm without having to give a good fight. Dont be impatient. Petit bourgeois impatience is the biggest sign of opportunism.

[Geiseric]

I don't know, i'd be stoked if there were that many people demonstrating around here. However riots outside of parliament aren't actually too productive, and you were dodging my entire point with that. I'm not trying to make you mad, just to point out the problems that KKE has with its theory. It seems like it used to be basically menshevik a few months ago (judging by the rhetoric you're bring back), now by refusing to work with SYRIZA and the rest of the working class it's ultra left.

[Delenda Carthago]

I don't know, i'd be stoked if there were that many people demonstrating around here. However riots outside of parliament aren't actually too productive, and you were dodging my entire point with that. I'm not trying to make you mad, just to point out the problems that KKE has with its theory. It seems like it used to be basically menshevik a few months ago (judging by the rhetoric you're bring back), now by refusing to work with SYRIZA and the rest of the working class it's ultra left.
If you want to apply critic to KKE's politics, try studying it first. Other the struggle itself, where you can find examples of which on revleft posts of mine, here are some texts that give a clear view on the spirit.

http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2011/2011-02-11-kea
http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2013/2013-01-02-arthro-marinoy



As far as the menseviks things go, I dont recall the menseviks having any trouble working with the social democrats(what SYRIZA is today). I remember Lenin though fighting against opportunism wherever it came from. I remember him against Kautsky and the 2nd International and I remember him against Roza Luxemburg and other ultra leftists(even though of course he clearly admited them as comrades, on the contrary of the right wing opportunism).


Working with SYRIZA is working with someone that goes to USA think tanks and make them feel secure that this isnt any kind of revolution, even more calling IMF a partner on the struggle against austerity.

KKE has no bussines with that bs.

[piet11111]

How sweet. An ultrarevolutionary fanboy of reformist SYRIZA. When right wing and left wing opportunism kiss kiss.:lol:

Are you serious ?

I am not deceived by SYRIZA i know that tsiparas is pimping out his party to the troika and does everything to gain their confidence as "responsible statesmen".

But the KKE on the other hand strikes me as yet another typical stalinist organization that to me only manages to vent the rhetoric of a revolutionary part.
I really want to be objective here and give the KKE a fair chance but absolutely nothing even from you has managed to even give me a glimmer of hope when it comes to them.
Prove me wrong please because i really truly want to be wrong here.

[Delenda Carthago]

Are you serious ?

I am not deceived by SYRIZA i know that tsiparas is pimping out his party to the troika and does everything to gain their confidence as "responsible statesmen".

But the KKE on the other hand strikes me as yet another typical stalinist organization that to me only manages to vent the rhetoric of a revolutionary part.
I really want to be objective here and give the KKE a fair chance but absolutely nothing even from you has managed to even give me a glimmer of hope when it comes to them.
Prove me wrong please because i really truly want to be wrong here.
First of all, JESUS FUCKIN CHRIST with that "stalinist" bullshit!!! Enough! On the one window of Firefox I m been called a "stalinist", on the other a greek stalinist is accusing KKE of "neotrotskyist downhill".

KKE is neither stalinist or trotskyist. KKE is m-l and with its own, PRESENT DAY analyses. It comes from the "stalinist" and then "antistalinist revisionist" tradition and for the last 20 years it is neither, but more and more it becomes more radical by its own feet, leaving all the antirevolutinary rust behind. So, enough with that crap.

Other than that, KKE is doing everything it has to organise the working class and its allies the best possible for the pretty pretty sweet "rise to the skies". And being a serious party that it is, and not a juvenile group of idiots, it knows that to the revolutionary road there are many many steps. You dont just wake up one day and just start a revolution. And it does it way better than anyone around I tell you.

I know that to the microwave generation that seems boring, having to built and work for something that cannot be seen on the near future, but thats what it takes. If you think otherwise, be my guest and prove us wrong. Start a revolution and win it.

[piet11111]

If you do not want to be civil towards me why even bother replying ?

[Delenda Carthago]

If you do not want to be civil towards me why even bother replying ?
Because of the essence of what I write. We are not buddies to talk about girls and football, we talk politics. Focus on the issues adressed.


And btw, I dont know how it came out, but I was more fed up than agressive. I wasnt attacking you. Im just greek. Thats how we rude uneducated sonsof*****es are.

[Le Socialiste]

It'd be helpful if people were to recognize that SYRIZA isn't a monolithic entity, but a coalition of diverse contingents representing a wide array of differing political and programmatic viewpoints. Unfortunately Synaspismós, a reformist organization, dominates SYRIZA as its largest member. Its spearheaded moves to moderate the coalition's politics, and this has created a rift between SYRIZA's partner groups. Although, at this point the largest demographic within SYRIZA no longer belongs to any one organization within it; over the last couple of years its membership has been swelled by nonaffiliated members. Certainly we should point out and agitate against these reformist tendencies within SYRIZA, but we needn't generalize this to include the whole of the membership. To do so would be dishonest. There's a struggle currently being waged between the party's moderate right and its left (currently known as the Left Platform). On Feb. 3 the Left Platform put down four amendments before the Central Committee:

• That Syriza should avoid taking important initiatives without involving the collective bodies of the party (this was a reference to meetings like the one with Schäuble).

• That Syriza should reaffirm that it will re-nationalise all the privatised companies, starting with those that are of strategic importance to the economy.

• Commitment to a government of the left (and not the centre-left, let alone one with sections of the “patriotic-populist” right); initiatives for joint action and a united front to KKE and Antarsya and other left forces.

• That Syriza should realise that the EU leaders, the IMF, and the USA, despite all their differences, will share an intense hostility to a government of the left operating outside the strait-jacket of Memorandum-restricted parliamentary democracy. Syriza should prepare for confrontations to come, and realise that a government of the left cannot play off the different big-power blocs to gain a position of tolerance.

Users here who blanket SYRIZA as a completely reformist, non-revolutionary coalition need to take these struggles for the party's leadership into account. Tsipras is clearly going out of his way to portray the coalition as a loyal partner of the austerity-driven agenda set down by the troika, but members of the Left Platform have taken their disagreements with this shift public in recent months. As a whole, SYRIZA currently holds over 500 branches with a membership of 30,000. With all this, I can't help but agree with DEA member Panos Petrou:


The road ahead of us won't be easy, but it is clear that the future of the Greek left and the class struggle in Greece will be shaped in critical ways by the direction taken by SYRIZA. The battle for that direction is a battle no one should abstain from.

[Art Vandelay]

It'd be helpful if people were to recognize that SYRIZA isn't a monolithic entity, but a coalition of diverse contingents representing a wide array of differing political and programmatic viewpoints. Unfortunately Synaspismós, a reformist organization, dominates SYRIZA as its largest member. Its spearheaded moves to moderate the coalition's politics, and this has created a rift between SYRIZA's partner groups. Although, at this point the largest demographic within SYRIZA no longer belongs to any one organization within it; over the last couple of years its membership has been swelled by nonaffiliated members. Certainly we should point out and agitate against these reformist tendencies within SYRIZA, but we needn't generalize this to include the whole of the membership. To do so would be dishonest. There's a struggle currently being waged between the party's moderate right and its left (currently known as the Left Platform). On Feb. 3 the Left Platform put down four amendments before the Central Committee:

• That Syriza should avoid taking important initiatives without involving the collective bodies of the party (this was a reference to meetings like the one with Schäuble).

• That Syriza should reaffirm that it will re-nationalise all the privatised companies, starting with those that are of strategic importance to the economy.

• Commitment to a government of the left (and not the centre-left, let alone one with sections of the “patriotic-populist” right); initiatives for joint action and a united front to KKE and Antarsya and other left forces.

• That Syriza should realise that the EU leaders, the IMF, and the USA, despite all their differences, will share an intense hostility to a government of the left operating outside the strait-jacket of Memorandum-restricted parliamentary democracy. Syriza should prepare for confrontations to come, and realise that a government of the left cannot play off the different big-power blocs to gain a position of tolerance.

Users here who blanket SYRIZA as a completely reformist, non-revolutionary coalition need to take these struggles for the party's leadership into account. Tsipras is clearly going out of his way to portray the coalition as a loyal partner of the austerity-driven agenda set down by the troika, but members of the Left Platform have taken their disagreements with this shift public in recent months. As a whole, SYRIZA currently holds over 500 branches with a membership of 30,000. With all this, I can't help but agree with DEA member Panos Petrou:

Can't believe it took 3 pages to get a sensible non-ideological post in this thread.

In all honesty lets try and keep the flaming, spam and off topic posts down. This isn't my subforum and not my place to be handing out verbals (and frankly I don't want to and don't think any other mod does either) so lets try and keep the one liners (ranting about how the members of the board are insane), the posting of pictures without commentary, the bringing up of past events (which will only lead to a shit storm and tendency war), etc..to a minimum.

[La Guaneña]

Why only re-nationalize the privatized companys? Looks weak to me, sounds like the soft shelled reformists around here talking.

[Le Socialiste]

Why only re-nationalize the privatized companys? Looks weak to me, sounds like the soft shelled reformists around here talking.

I've responded to this question before in an earlier thread, so I'll just link you to that post:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2553669&postcount=19

Here's the gist of my argument:


This kind of policy must be assessed within the context(s) in which it is presented as a goal or demand; in this instance it happens to be made amidst deteriorating conditions for vast sections of the Greek population. Considering this demand was made against the backdrop of privatization and the gutting of public social services, an argument can be made that yes - nationalization of certain sectors is a radical (and necessary!) goal to have. SYRIZA has also made an argument in favor of workers' control over specific industries (the details of which may even be found in its 40-point program).

Here's SYRIZA's 40-point program (http://links.org.au/node/2888) (if you haven't read it already).

[Red Enemy]

SYRIZA should not be looked upon as either a working class or class neutral entity. They are a party or bourgeois and petty-bourgeois reformists, liberals, and other anti-marxists. They're 40 point program is the same type of program any social-democratic party would have, especially when they can use it in an opportunist fashion during such a crisis.

What happens with these types of parties when they do get into power, when they are faced with situations of capitalist crisis? They cave, they fall to the will of the bourgeoisie, and they become the ones promoting austerity. To put your faith into a bourgeois-liberal coalition party, and to promote class collaborationism in the name of defending reforms, is handing the working class the rope to hang itself with.

It's this sort of opportunism that members of certain "Internationals" and view points partake in, which is severely damaging to the working class, and the struggle against capital. The working class must continue to fight austerity in the streets, must organize into a truly revolutionary vanguard party, and must seize power for themselves. Not wait for the bourgeois and petty-bourgeois reformists and liberals to swoop in and save them.

[CyM]

I think it is fairly significant when the youth wing of the main opposition party pulls an action like this and is not condemned for it by the leadership.

But I'm confused by DNZ's position, because this is an example of an economic issue (minimum wage) being used to radicalize the working class struggle in Greece, something he condemned as "economism" when we were discussing transitional demands.

Clearly, real revolutionary politics does work by transitional demands, and the specific author who analyzed that and wanted to systematically use it is just too unpopular for us to admit?

[Geiseric]

It'd be helpful if people were to recognize that SYRIZA isn't a monolithic entity, but a coalition of diverse contingents representing a wide array of differing political and programmatic viewpoints. Unfortunately Synaspismós, a reformist organization, dominates SYRIZA as its largest member. Its spearheaded moves to moderate the coalition's politics, and this has created a rift between SYRIZA's partner groups. Although, at this point the largest demographic within SYRIZA no longer belongs to any one organization within it; over the last couple of years its membership has been swelled by nonaffiliated members. Certainly we should point out and agitate against these reformist tendencies within SYRIZA, but we needn't generalize this to include the whole of the membership. To do so would be dishonest. There's a struggle currently being waged between the party's moderate right and its left (currently known as the Left Platform). On Feb. 3 the Left Platform put down four amendments before the Central Committee:

• That Syriza should avoid taking important initiatives without involving the collective bodies of the party (this was a reference to meetings like the one with Schäuble).

• That Syriza should reaffirm that it will re-nationalise all the privatised companies, starting with those that are of strategic importance to the economy.

• Commitment to a government of the left (and not the centre-left, let alone one with sections of the “patriotic-populist” right); initiatives for joint action and a united front to KKE and Antarsya and other left forces.

• That Syriza should realise that the EU leaders, the IMF, and the USA, despite all their differences, will share an intense hostility to a government of the left operating outside the strait-jacket of Memorandum-restricted parliamentary democracy. Syriza should prepare for confrontations to come, and realise that a government of the left cannot play off the different big-power blocs to gain a position of tolerance.

Users here who blanket SYRIZA as a completely reformist, non-revolutionary coalition need to take these struggles for the party's leadership into account. Tsipras is clearly going out of his way to portray the coalition as a loyal partner of the austerity-driven agenda set down by the troika, but members of the Left Platform have taken their disagreements with this shift public in recent months. As a whole, SYRIZA currently holds over 500 branches with a membership of 30,000. With all this, I can't help but agree with DEA member Panos Petrou:

If you've actually read their program, it says in plain english what their plans are, which are completely based on transitional demands. It's impossible for the greeks to fall for another P.A.M.E. and Papandreou, the consciousness we've seen in recent months is reflected in SYRIZA's rise.

[Geiseric]

It'd be helpful if people were to recognize that SYRIZA isn't a monolithic entity, but a coalition of diverse contingents representing a wide array of differing political and programmatic viewpoints. Unfortunately Synaspismós, a reformist organization, dominates SYRIZA as its largest member. Its spearheaded moves to moderate the coalition's politics, and this has created a rift between SYRIZA's partner groups. Although, at this point the largest demographic within SYRIZA no longer belongs to any one organization within it; over the last couple of years its membership has been swelled by nonaffiliated members. Certainly we should point out and agitate against these reformist tendencies within SYRIZA, but we needn't generalize this to include the whole of the membership. To do so would be dishonest. There's a struggle currently being waged between the party's moderate right and its left (currently known as the Left Platform). On Feb. 3 the Left Platform put down four amendments before the Central Committee:

• That Syriza should avoid taking important initiatives without involving the collective bodies of the party (this was a reference to meetings like the one with Schäuble).

• That Syriza should reaffirm that it will re-nationalise all the privatised companies, starting with those that are of strategic importance to the economy.

• Commitment to a government of the left (and not the centre-left, let alone one with sections of the “patriotic-populist” right); initiatives for joint action and a united front to KKE and Antarsya and other left forces.

• That Syriza should realise that the EU leaders, the IMF, and the USA, despite all their differences, will share an intense hostility to a government of the left operating outside the strait-jacket of Memorandum-restricted parliamentary democracy. Syriza should prepare for confrontations to come, and realise that a government of the left cannot play off the different big-power blocs to gain a position of tolerance.

Users here who blanket SYRIZA as a completely reformist, non-revolutionary coalition need to take these struggles for the party's leadership into account. Tsipras is clearly going out of his way to portray the coalition as a loyal partner of the austerity-driven agenda set down by the troika, but members of the Left Platform have taken their disagreements with this shift public in recent months. As a whole, SYRIZA currently holds over 500 branches with a membership of 30,000. With all this, I can't help but agree with DEA member Panos Petrou:

If you've actually read their program, it says in plain english what their plans are, which are completely based on transitional demands. Syriza's rise is in coorespondance with the rising consciousness we've seen.

[Le Socialiste]

If you've actually read their program, it says in plain english what their plans are, which are completely based on transitional demands. It's impossible for the greeks to fall for another P.A.M.E. and Papandreou, the consciousness we've seen in recent months is reflected in SYRIZA's rise.

Papandreou was in the Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK), not PAME. I've read their program, but thanks for throwing out the assumption that I haven't. I'm not even entirely sure as to what you're trying to say in your two posts here - are you agreeing with me or criticizing what I've said?

[CyM]

I think he's agreeing with you, and was saying others haven't read their programme.

[Le Socialiste]

I think he's agreeing with you, and was saying others haven't read their programme.

Ah, okay. I wasn't sure.

[Geiseric]

Papandreou was in the Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK), not PAME. I've read their program, but thanks for throwing out the assumption that I haven't. I'm not even entirely sure as to what you're trying to say in your two posts here - are you agreeing with me or criticizing what I've said?

Sorry I was agreeing with you. I mistook PASOK for PAME, the trade union, which was my bad.

[CyM]

Although you weren't far off, PAME is linked to PASOK.

EDIT: This is wrong and I made a mistake.

[La Guaneña]

Although you weren't far off, PAME is linked to PASOK.

u wot m8 :confused:

[Geiseric]

Although you weren't far off, PAME is linked to PASOK.

I think PAME is KKE's union.

[CyM]

Oops, alright, now I fucked up.