American Libertarianism

[Karl Renegade]

Just recently learned about a particular ideology that has grown in the US (i'm not american) called Libertarianism. What is it? does it have something to do with Anarchism?

[Lobotomy]

American libertarianism does not have anything to do with anarchism. It is a right-wing belief system influenced first and foremost by Austrian economics, but also the bourgeois "classical liberals" that founded the country (also known as the founding fathers). They promote the idea that government should have as little influence as possible in people's personal lives, which sounds good in theory but they ignore the fact that in an unregulated market, private entities would undoubtedly have a lot of control over working-class people. Many of these kinds of libertarians have a hard-on for Ayn rand and any sort of extreme individualist ideas. Libertarianism has been promoted by the politician Ron Paul in recent years so it has been somewhat of a trend among young people. There are usually a few roaming around OI, you could see if there are any there these days.

Tbh most libertarians come from really privileged backgrounds and haven't ever really had to support themselves on a minimum wage job.

[Fourth Internationalist]

It's economically right-wing, socially left-wing.

[Goblin]

They fight for a smaller state, yet they call us communists "statists", even though we want to abolish the entire state!

Its also worth noting that libertarianism is a huge joke in most of the world.

If you wanna learn more about libertarianism, i recommend reading about Somalia and Afghanistan.

[tuwix]

Just recently learned about a particular ideology that has grown in the US (i'm not american) called Libertarianism. What is it? does it have something to do with Anarchism?


Anarchism and right-wing Libertarianism came form the same root. But the false right-wing Libertarianism cults a private property. And from there all differences come that make anarchism and false Libertarianism quite opposite.

[Lucretia]

You'll be surprised at how much libertarianism has in common with anarchism. There's a reason Robert Nozick's classic (if thoroughly flawed) work of libertarian political theory is called Anarchy, State, and Utopia.

[ZenTaoist]

It's essentially anarcho-capitalism, and they put lots of emphasis on monetary policy. Most of them cream over ridiculous notions such as going back to the gold standard. Also, they plague the internet.

[Raúl Duke]

American Libertarianism developed somewhat separately from anarchism, an ideology with European origins. Libertarianism traces back to classical liberalism, in fact they may have appropriated the term "libertarianism" so to distance themselves from modern-day US liberals who are/were more like "social liberals."

"Anarcho-capitalism" came out of this classical liberal/libertarian milleu based on a misunderstanding of European anarchism. The American misunderstanding of anarchism is quite problematic, I feel, for anarchism's growth in the US. I keep meeting "anarchists" who talk about having markets and whatever, ugh.

In the US, anarchism is primarily seen as an "anti-state" ideology forgetting that it is a "anti-hierarchy" ideology which in modern time has focused more strongly on the class struggle and anti-capitalism to the point where anarchists seem to have a stronger opposition towards capitalism than the state in so far that anarchists increasingly see the modern state as an object/apparatus facilitated/perpetuated into being by capitalism. Or to phrase it differently, while "anarcho-capitalists" and libertarians see the state as the "ultimate evil" most anarchists see capitalism as the main 'bad' thing while the state as an accomplice.

[Luís Henrique]

It's economically right-wing, socially left-wing.

How can anything or anyone be "economically right-wing" and "socially left-wing"?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

If you wanna learn more about libertarianism, i recommend reading about Somalia and Afghanistan.

Er... no, that's absurd.

Neither Somalia nor Afghanistan have any meaningful "libertarian" presence. What you mean is that if "libertarian" politics could be put into practice, they would result in something similar to Somalia or Afghanistan. But this requires believing that such politics can actually implemented, which is false.

So, no. If you want to learn more about libertarianism, read what they write, and what other people - communists, conservatives, liberals, social-democrats, etc. - write about them, their ideas, and their contradictions.

Luís Henrique

[tuwix]

It's essentially anarcho-capitalism, and they put lots of emphasis on monetary policy.

Well, not exactly.
Firstly, there is impossible to be capitalism without any form of state at once. Therefore, anarcho-capitalism is just oxymoron.
Secondly, the fake libertarians mostly don't advocate an abolition of state, because know that capitalism with no state is impossible.





Neither Somalia nor Afghanistan have any meaningful "libertarian" presence.

Well, Afghanistan for sure, because there is state. But Somalia? There was no real state for a decade that means no taxes: Almost free-market. Just paradise for everybody who loves free-market. But there was and is famine. It shows where free-market policy goes...

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Well, not exactly.
Firstly, there is impossible to be capitalism without any form of state at once. Therefore, anarcho-capitalism is just oxymoron.
Secondly, the fake libertarians mostly don't advocate an abolition of state, because know that capitalism with no state is impossible.





Well, Afghanistan for sure, because there is state. But Somalia? There was no real state for a decade that means no taxes: Almost free-market. Just paradise for everybody who loves free-market. But there was and is famine. It shows where free-market policy goes...
Not just famine mate. if you have a gun then you're fucking king in some parts of that hellhole.

[Crux]

Just recently learned about a particular ideology that has grown in the US (i'm not american) called Libertarianism. What is it? does it have something to do with Anarchism?
It's an american nationalist ideology married with a sort of hyper neoliberalism.
This is a, while obviously being a comic, actually a fairly comprehensive guide:
http://www.leftycartoons.com/wp-content/uploads/types_of_libertarian1.png

[Luís Henrique]

Well, Afghanistan for sure, because there is state. But Somalia? There was no real state for a decade that means no taxes: Almost free-market. Just paradise for everybody who loves free-market. But there was and is famine. It shows where free-market policy goes...

And the absence of a real State in Somalia was the deed of "libertarian" ideologues... exactly how?

But no, there wasn't even an actual absence of State in Somalia. The State broke into small and very illegitimate petty warlordships, but it was still present, daily, repressively, suffocating and destroying any possible autonomy for workers, peasants, etc.

And of course there were taxes too, and I would guess much higher than in the US. The fact that they were extracted at gun point, and by unelected and unrepresentative thugs didn't make it any more of a "free-market" paradise.

You can argue that an actual attempt to implement "libertarian" policies would lead to a situation similar as to of Somalia. But I don't think a situation like that of Somalia can be reached by "libertarian" methods at all: it takes several competing very Statist groups fighting each other and failing to set up a political mechanism to legitimately decide who rules to achieve that.

Luís Henrique

[GPDP]

It's economically right-wing, socially left-wing.

A description I would only reserve for the most consistent among them, which, from experience, appear to be a minority among the movement. Many libertarians are almost as reactionary as mainstream conservatives, some even more so. All it takes is a bit of prodding to get the racist, homophobic bile to come out from underneath the pretensions of being pro-liberty.

[Crux]

A description I would only reserve for the most consistent among them, which, from experience, appear to be a minority among the movement. Many libertarians are almost as reactionary as mainstream conservatives, some even more so. All it takes is a bit of prodding to get the racist, homophobic bile to come out from underneath the pretensions of being pro-liberty.
An apt question would be..socially leftwing of what?

[tuwix]

And the absence of a real State in Somalia was the deed of "libertarian" ideologues... exactly how?


No, it wasn't but it is irrelevant.



But no, there wasn't even an actual absence of State in Somalia. The State broke into small and very illegitimate petty warlordships, but it was still present, daily, repressively, suffocating and destroying any possible autonomy for workers, peasants, etc


But recognized state was still Somalia, that didn't exist in fact.
Certainly, its is only possible way of so-called anarcho-capitalism. The mafias and gangs exist but formal state doesn't. And it doesn't look pretty good...
.


And of course there were taxes too, and I would guess much higher than in the US. The fact that they were extracted at gun point, and by unelected and unrepresentative thugs didn't make it any more of a "free-market" paradise.



I think that you mislead a tax with a racket. Tax is approved by official state and racket is taken by militarized gangs and the second case was in place in Somalia.
But the fact that in capitalism there can't be mo taxes neither rackets make dreamed anarcho-capitalism impossible. The only possible thing is something similar to Somalia.

[GPDP]

An apt question would be..socially leftwing of what?

Fascists.

[Misanthrope]

It's essentially anarcho-capitalism, and they put lots of emphasis on monetary policy. Most of them cream over ridiculous notions such as going back to the gold standard. Also, they plague the internet.

pretty much this. They're anarcho-capitalists that are honest and realize that a state is inherent to a capitalist economy.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

European libertarianism (at least in the iberian peninsula) is anarcho-communism.

[Captain Ahab]

It isn't socially left wing to think that businesses should be free to discriminate on the basis of race when choosing to hire.

[Crabbensmasher]

The funny thing is, the libertarian movement in America kind of started off as being left wing. It was more of a libertarian-socialist movement. Unfortunately, the term got hijacked by tea partyists and what I'd describe as reactionaries. But yes, nowadays, when somebody in America refers to libertarianism, what their referring to is people who generally advocate any collection of these among other ideals
-Pro small government
-Anti-tax
-Constitutionalism (sorry if I'm using that word incorrectly)
-Non-interference (in terms of foreign intervention)
-Pro property rights
-Pro individual liberty

But yes, American libertarianism is very much fundamentally a, well, American phenomenon

[tuwix]

In Poland, we have them too, as well, as own Ron Paul. Even more stupid than him. But it is rather only the internet phenomenon. In elections they get 1.5 %. They don't have even slightest chance to get to the parliament.