Those who don't want to cooperate...

[nihilust]

It seems a vast majority of the working class in the US is okay with being oppressed, so long as they can still have wal-mart and christmas. What do we do when the majority does not support their own cause?

[#FF0000]

Convince them to.

also want to point out that your tone there is kind of, uh, patronizing, I think.

[nihilust]

Because i said wal-mart and christmas? i was poking fun at Capitalisms tools on the mindless. I wouldn't expect any like-minded person (variably anyone on this site) to take offense.

[Art Vandelay]

False-consciousness is a real thing ya know.

[Ostrinski]

"Mindless"

Even more patronizing.

[#FF0000]

Because i said wal-mart and christmas? i was poking fun at Capitalisms tools on the mindless. I wouldn't expect any like-minded person (variably anyone on this site) to take offense.

Talking about "the mindless" workers is pretty fucking condescending and I wouldn't imagine anyone I've worked alongside would be especially keen on that kind of thing.

[subcp]

Communism isn't a moral choice, it's a material necessity. We all have different ideas exactly what the minority who have communist views now should be doing (or not doing). I don't think it matters what the subjective views of the mass of humanity are for the prospect of the movement toward communism.

Your condescension is a moral choice, no different from celebrating Christmas.

[nihilust]

i can see how it would be condescending, wasn't trying to generalize so much. However, i am referring to the "petty-bouregois", the liberals etc

[sanpal]

It seems a vast majority of the working class in the US is okay with being oppressed, so long as they can still have wal-mart and christmas. What do we do when the majority does not support their own cause?

This theme gives one more argument in favour of DotP as transitional period with two-sectors multi-economy (state-capitalist sector for those who don't want to cooperate, and communist sector for those who are ready for that and have mature consciousness). Of course DotP just after revolution.

[nihilust]

This theme gives one more argument in favour of DotP as transitional period with two-sectors multi-economy (state-capitalist sector for those who don't want to cooperate, and communist sector for those who are ready for that and have mature consciousness). Of course DotP just after revolution.

thank you!!! this accurately answered my question. I appreciate your understanding and not getting on me about semantics like everyone else

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Oppression oppresses. So the political consciousness of the vast majority of the proletariat is based on what they have been taught (e.g., capitalism is the best system, socialism is evil and has failed, etc.). You build a party that carries forward the program of Marxism (imo that means a Leninist/Trotskyist party). Right now the best you could do in the US would be to cohere a small-sized "fighting propaganda" group that can attract the few that can transcend the ideological brainwashing they have undergone. When conditions change, the masses will be more open to a communist program. Right now, not so much.

[nihilust]

lev, although we may not agree on tactics, "(imo that means a Leninist/Trotskyist party)", i appreciate your willingness to answer my question! You helped clarify some stuff

[Ele'ill]

What do we do when the majority does not support their own cause?


Don't wait

[Comrade #138672]

i can see how it would be condescending, wasn't trying to generalize so much. However, i am referring to the "petty-bouregois", the liberals etcOffer them to co-operate. But if they start fighting it, then jail them or something.

[Luís Henrique]

It seems a vast majority of the working class in the US is okay with being oppressed, so long as they can still have wal-mart and christmas. What do we do when the majority does not support their own cause?

Join the far-right.

Committ suicide.

Do drugs.

Become a trekkie.

... or realise that if things were easy they would have been already done.

Luís Henrique

[Narodnik]

Commodity fetishisim must be countered with something. What are your opinions about the answer to the quetions- with what?

I don't think that grasping of knowledge about the existing system does it, commodity fetishism is a lifestyle, one that consumes much of the lives of the working people, so maybe it should be countered by an offered alternative lifestyle. Leisure is commercialized, basically everything people do is commodified- what to do about it?

[Thirsty Crow]

False-consciousness is a real thing ya know.
But in its original manifestation in Marx's writing, the term didn't actuqally apply to the proletariat but, and this is important, to the bourgeoisie. I don't think we should uncritically (twice the uncriticalness :lol:) accept the fact that Marxists have uncritically broadened the scope of the term (this can be easily seen in any discussion on ruling ideology where almost everything is described as a product of false consciousness).


I don't think that grasping of knowledge about the existing system does it, commodity fetishism is a lifestyle, one that consumes much of the lives of the working people, so maybe it should be countered by an offered alternative lifestyle. Leisure is commercialized, basically everything people do is commodified- what to do about it?The term "commodity fetishism" definitely does not apply to a "lifestyle". You're confusing commodity fetishism - a characteristic of the social form of the commodity itself - with consumerism, which is something of a vague term and is to a great extent alien to Marxism (which isn't necessarily bad in itself; but what is "bad" is that it doesn't imply a viable perspective for liberation - the most obvious fault being a fetishism of ascetism to a certain degree). The conclusion of alternative lifestyle is thus wrong.


I don't think it matters what the subjective views of the mass of humanity are for the prospect of the movement toward communism.

This would hold if it were clear that "subjective views" of this kind have absolutely no bearing on the actual process of struggle. Which is dubious, I think.

[Art Vandelay]

But in its original manifestation in Marx's writing, the term didn't actuqally apply to the proletariat but, and this is important, to the bourgeoisie. I don't think we should uncritically (twice the uncriticalness :lol:) accept the fact that Marxists have uncritically broadened the scope of the term (this can be easily seen in any discussion on ruling ideology where almost everything is described as a product of false consciousness).

You think the phenomenon of false consciousness is only applicable to the bourgeoisie? I'm not really arguing what Marx's opinion on the matter was, as Marxism isn't simply the teachings of Marx, but also those who codified his thought after his death. You really don't think the theory of false consciousness has any applicability to the proletariat?

[Thirsty Crow]

You think the phenomenon of false consciousness is only applicable to the bourgeoisie? I'm not really arguing what Marx's opinion on the matter was, as Marxism isn't simply the teachings of Marx, but also those who codified his thought after his death. You really don't think the theory of false consciousness has any applicability to the proletariat?
I didn't say any of those things.

I merely stated that the use of the term has undergone changes which haven't been subject to the work of theory, as if it was asomething obvious.. I think this is a problem.

And in this sense, I don't think you can actually speak of a "theory of false consciousness". That would be my point, that something like this is sorely missing and that's why, in part, the term is used as explaining a huge number of phenomena. This can't be taken as a sign of its ultimate explanatory power.