Question to Marxist-Leninists on the USSR

[TheIrrationalist]

I hear that Marxist-Leninists claim that the Soviet Union under Lenin and Stalin implemented successfully socialism. But what I have gathered on the subject don't seem to support that view.

So I ask you Marxist-Leninists; how do you back up this view? What makes the Soviet Union socialist under Lenin and Stalin?

[tuwix]

Definitely I'm not Leninist, but I think the Leninists who aren't Stalinists they blame Stalin for all bad what happened.

[ind_com]

I hear that Marxist-Leninists claim that the Soviet Union under Lenin and Stalin implemented successfully socialism. But what I have gathered on the subject don't seem to support that view.

So I ask you Marxist-Leninists; how do you back up this view? What makes the Soviet Union socialist under Lenin and Stalin?

A key feature of socialism, namely continuing revolutionary proletarian class struggle from below, was missing in the USSR. But we still call it socialist because of the other measures that they took and because of the level of the international communist movement in that period.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Definitely I'm not Leninist, but I think the Leninists who aren't Stalinists they blame Stalin for all bad what happened.

No they don't. Well, I wouldn't say I'm a Leninist, since I don't think there is such a thing, but I largely follow Lenin.
Some trotskyist do that, but most see stalinism as a result of the situation the country was in, poor country after a civil war being isolated etc.
Great-man theorists blame Stalin for everything.

[Questionable]

You should probably ask the Marxist-Leninists group because anything pro-Soviet that gets posted in this thread is going to be shouted down.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I hear that Marxist-Leninists claim that the Soviet Union under Lenin and Stalin implemented successfully socialism. But what I have gathered on the subject don't seem to support that view.

So I ask you Marxist-Leninists; how do you back up this view? What makes the Soviet Union socialist under Lenin and Stalin?

They hardly implemented it successfully and finally, but yes, they did abolish (near to) all private ownership over the means of production.

If you were to ask whether the actual practice of Socialist countries lives up to the ideal of Socialism, then of course there is quite a gap between that. But there were many factors we can in hindsight point out as being core factors to not reaching the ideal of Socialist society we all share: mainly the biggest factor being that foreign invasions, domestic civil conflicts, sabotage (and these leading by themselves to all sorts of tight political and contradictory political-social situations) battered the countries in which the working class ruled; a large factor has also always been the economic underdevelopment of the revolutionary countriesl; then there is the macro-structure of the revolutionary society which arises from this that has always been tainted by minoritarian, bureaucratic governments; economic underdevelopment plays a major role next to counterrevolution.

Last but not least, 20th century Socialism never truly had the technological means to create a society where society collectively decides matters of production. Educating working people was through more inefficient traditional means, whereas contemporary revolutionary political education could easily be organized a lot more time sparingly and broader through modern communicative technology. Today, workers participation in State administration and Production is just a click away.

[feeLtheLove]

Stalinist think that the Soviet Union under Stalin was Socialist. But this couldn't be further from the truth. Stalin broke many of Marx's teachings(so much for being a Marxist)and bent rules in order for the USSR to "survive" in a Capitalist world. Stalin would commence in trade with Capitalist countries. Probably one of the biggest ones was "Socialism in One Country" which was Stalin's way of keeping outer countries capitalist and going being counter-revolutionary. Stalin failed to do basic steps after a revolution

[Lokomotive293]

Stalinist think that the Soviet Union under Stalin was Socialist. But this couldn't be further from the truth. Stalin broke many of Marx's teachings(so much for being a Marxist)and bent rules in order for the USSR to "survive" in a Capitalist world. Stalin would commence in trade with Capitalist countries. Probably one of the biggest ones was "Socialism in One Country" which was Stalin's way of keeping outer countries capitalist and going being counter-revolutionary. Stalin failed to do basic steps after a revolution

I think it's interesting that you are talking about "Marx's teachings" as though Marx's writings are something like the bible, and the only thing that keeps us from living in paradise (communism) is that there are people who don't understand him/interpret him right.
The most important theory Marx and Engels developed was dialectical and historical materialism. How is "Stalin broke many of Marx's teachings" in any way consistent with a materialist analysis of history?
Marx and Engels (and Lenin) gave us tools that help us along the way, but they didn't give us a book that we only have to live according to.
There are some core elements (dialectical and historical materialism, class struggle, the dictatorship of the proletariat,...) that, in my opinion, aren't up to debate, but Marxist-Leninist theory and practice developed from a constant analysis of the changing material conditions, and from constant criticism and self-criticism.
So, there was no "bending rules", there was a party that acted according to the material conditions it found. Whether they did that the right way is a different question, but there is no "rule" that says a socialist country is not allowed to trade with capitalist countries, and there is also no "rule" that says the proletariat shouldn't proceed to building socialism when it has gained power in one country. Marx, Engels and Lenin even wrote that they should, btw, if you want to talk about "rules".

[TheIrrationalist]

They hardly implemented it successfully and finally, but yes, they did abolish (near to) all private ownership over the means of production.

I don't think abolishing private ownership over the means of production is a socialist act in itself, if the state instead of the working class has the control over the means of production, and the state run by the Bolshevik party certainly wasn't a dictatorship of the proletariat.