Anarchist bookfair to be held in "porn warehouse"; massive shitstorm erupts

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://anarchistnews.org/content/recent-criticisms-year%E2%80%99s-book-fair-venue
http://anarchistnews.org/content/anarchist-book-fair-porn

I'm not even sure if this warrants enough importance to be in the "politics" subforum, I was just amused by the controversy, esp. the 200+ comments on the second link. :lol: Mods can feel free to move it wherever.

[o well this is ok I guess]

I'm not even sure @news drama in any way reflects actual drama in the area the news relates to.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Augh. Worst throw-back antiporn critique.
In all of the sexphobic "THEY TORTURE WOMEN!!!!!!111!!!!111!" nonsense, they somehow fail to get to what's actually problematic about kink.com - skinny white bodies that reinforce racist hypernormative narratives of what is desirable.
NOW 1990 FTW (not).

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm not even sure @news drama in any way reflects actual drama in the area the news relates to.

That's true, although I guess there was enough criticism that the bookfair organizers felt the need to write a response...

[Prof. Oblivion]

explains feminist activist Gail Dines, who argues that the pornography website is in stark violation of the United Nations Convention Against Torture.

Haha really?

[Sasha]

Haha really?

Yeah, no mention that kink.com is one of the few websites that pay decent to their models, that have a policy that DEMANDS that each film end in a shot that shows the scene before is erotic play and all participants are equal and consenting.
Just more sexnegative bs.
Sure money is made but kink.com is as close as a shining example for the sex buisness as one could find. Sure one could have a valid argument whether one should have an anarchist bookmarket in a place owned by a participant in the sex-INDUSTRY but as always the problem is the industry bit and not the sex bit, let alone the bdsm side of this particular site, if anything the bdsm instead of run of the mill fake tit anorexia stuff should be a plus to feminists not a negative.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The comparison of BDSM torture (which participants can end at any time) with, say, getting the soles of your feet whipped with a cable in a prison somewhere is really dumb. It makes people look like wingnuts who are out of touch with reality...

[Luís Henrique]

Darn, I thought only us Marxists were plagued with politicised absexuality - now I see anarchists aren't better in this issue either. :crying:

Luís Henrique

[Sasha]

It's a loud but small minority, when I once got shit for wearing a support shirt for the union of exotic dancers all the queers jumped to my defense.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't think people should be so flippant and the hostility to the ciricism in some of those posts (such as telling the criticizers to "Shut-up") is worse than the location.

I don't have any "puritanical" issues with the location, but I think that the organizers should have ruled it out as a possibility even if there was only a slight chance that this would reflect poorly on the radical community. And then to justify it on the basis of being cheaper also projects an impression that a potential bargin outweighs potential alienating effects or issues of sexism.

Also to frame the debate only in terms of internal anarchist ideological debates on porn is totally inbread Leftist crap. The causual audience attracted to these events isn't going to be thinking about some anarchist dogma, they are just going to think, Oh radicals don't take sexism seriously.

Calling complaints like this "puritanical" or "PC" or "bourgoise-feminist" in such an inexact and blanket sort of way the people in the article comments did is the same sort of damaging that the SWP leadership has been pulling (and also using radical critiques of bourgoise-feminism as cover).

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't think people should be so flippant and the hostility to the ciricism in some of those posts (such as telling the criticizers to "Shut-up") is worse than the location.

I don't have any "puritanical" issues with the location, but I think that the organizers should have ruled it out as a possibility even if there was only a slight chance that this would reflect poorly on the radical community. And then to justify it on the basis of being cheaper also projects an impression that a potential bargin outweighs potential alienating effects or issues of sexism.

Also to frame the debate only in terms of internal anarchist ideological debates on porn is totally inbread Leftist crap. The causual audience attracted to these events isn't going to be thinking about some anarchist dogma, they are just going to think, Oh radicals don't take sexism seriously.

Calling complaints like this "puritanical" or "PC" or "bourgoise-feminist" in such an inexact and blanket sort of way the people in the article comments did is the same sort of damaging that the SWP leadership has been pulling (and also using radical critiques of bourgoise-feminism as cover).

I agree that the venue should've been elsewhere. But the organizers must have thought about this too? They must've had a hell of a time getting a venue for this, either that or this venue is just remarkably less expensive than any others they could find.

But two things: 1) do these events actually attract sizable audiences outside the far-left milieu, and 2) a lot of these arguments (ie internal anarchist debates) regarding sex work in general only really make sense from an anarchist (or rad-fem, I guess) perspective. A lot of this shit about how people are forced to work at places like this business, how what they experience is somehow equivalent to real torture as defined by the UN, how they're literally slaves (and any participant who thinks otherwise is "brainwashed") and so on and so forth only really makes sense from a certain perspective...although I'm not sure if the people who say such things are trolls or not. Such is the internet I guess. Conversations about sexism and stuff are fine, and I think that businesses in the sex work industry do perpetuate that sort of thing, but just the pitch of the conversation...

[Jimmie Higgins]

I agree that the venue should've been elsewhere. But the organizers must have thought about this too? They must've had a hell of a time getting a venue for this, either that or this venue is just remarkably less expensive than any others they could find.

But two things: 1) do these events actually attract sizable audiences outside the far-left milieu, and 2) a lot of these arguments (ie internal anarchist debates) regarding sex work in general only really make sense from an anarchist (or rad-fem, I guess) perspective. A lot of this shit about how people are forced to work at places like this business, how what they experience is somehow equivalent to real torture as defined by the UN, how they're literally slaves (and any participant who thinks otherwise is "brainwashed") and so on and so forth only really makes sense from a certain perspective...although I'm not sure if the people who say such things are trolls or not. Such is the internet I guess. Conversations about sexism and stuff are fine, and I think that businesses in the sex work industry do perpetuate that sort of thing, but just the pitch of the conversation...

I've had a booth at this fair for several years and they had been holding it in golden gate park, but had to raise the booth fees because the rent and insurance increased. People threw fits (and were also mad because they paid a booth fee and there's a free section) and I think the organizers may have had difficulty retaining boothers.... I got an email survey from them asking what I thought about the fair, if the price was getting too high and if I'd table again. So I'm sure they got a good rate and I totally believe the organizers when they say this was the consideration. However, I think that it is bad judgement - they probably were just kind of searching for a logistical solution and settled on this for those practical reasons.

But I also know that some of the other locations they listed really are not more expensive. I've helped organize shoestring events at laney community college and I think that would have been a much better choice because it,'s a 15 minute walk from where occupy Oakland happened and a working class campus where probably more than half the students are black or latino. Porn warehouse... or the center of young black culture in Oakland?

As for the people who attend, the politics are pretty low. It's more of a cultural event and of people calling themselves anarchists it leans heavy on the lifestyle end of things... Lots of hipsters and hippies and punks but I like punks and hippies for cultural things (politics can be more annoying tho). Often people I spoke with just weren't political at all. One woman came up and i asked what brought her and she said she was interested in anarchism because taxes were too high and thought there should be less red-tape in government:scared:.

The boothers are more of a range... I guess from me the token trot to insurrectionists, syndicalists, life stylists, and liberals. So I doubt that more than a size able minority of attendees know of any debates while more of the boothers probably do.

...oops, more later...

[Ele'ill]

Maybe more people should organize this so it's not a few folks leading the where and when while everyone else sits around like a bunch of ducks quacking about the results.

[ellipsis]

Jimmie a couple of things. Golden gate park is also federal land and parks police are present. It's never been too much of an issue, but merits mentioning. Also there is the east bay book fair now, so holding the sf one in Oakland makes even less sense.

Maybe because of our different politics, but I see the politcal composition a little different. Sure it's not a pure hardcore anarchist attendance, I did get in an argument with an Obama supporter. But we met/ became better aquatinted there and we are no arm chair revolutionaries let alone apolitical.

As for the Kink Kastle, I have an old female friend who is a PA for a couple of the sites, and it sounds like the amount sexual harassment varies by director.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Oh yeah I think it's a great event and that's why I wish that some of their choices had been more sort of inclusive I guess. The low political level of attendees I described IMO is definitely just the place and time for all of us in the u.s., nothing reflecting on the organizers or anything... In fact it, that they can pull in more people shows there is a wider audience open to more ideas. My point was only that because of this, to justify the choice of location on relatively narrow political grounds misses the point and I think puts us in a bad light.

Also the organizers definitely do seem to be stretched thin and it seems like they get more complaints than actual useful help (on a whole range of things). That's why I find the practicality arguments for the location to be fair (even if I think the location is still problematic) while I think the political justifications are narrow and in poor judgement and I think some of the dismissive ness in the comments to the article is harmful.

[ellipsis]

Good place for recruitment to be sure, if u need bodies for an action in sf, book it this weekend.

[Skyhilist]

Seriously, bdsm breaks torture laws now? Last time I checked, consensual bdsm was voluntary on both sides, y'know not quite like being beaten in Guantanamo Bay.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Hey, someone posted this more interesting, nuanced critique on @news. It brought my attention to some things I hadn't thought of, and it's pretty "on", imho. Dig it (http://anarchistnews.org/content/debate-surrounding-bay-area-anarchist-bookfairs-location-misses-nuance-porn-debate-real).

[mew]

shame on these anarchists and this venue.

[o well this is ok I guess]

shame on these anarchists and this venue. Why
Where do you want them to go

[mew]

why not just host the meeting in a KKK/police/etc warehouse, are you okay with that, if it suits the needs of the organization and they had a hard time finding a "better" one?
i dream of a leftism that sees women as human beings. people wonder why women aren't so drawn to revleft or leftist organizations in general.

[o well this is ok I guess]

why not just host the meeting in a KKK/police/etc warehouse, are you okay with that, if it suits the needs of the organization and they had a hard time finding a "better" one?
i dream of a leftism that sees women as human beings. people wonder why women aren't so drawn to revleft or leftist organizations in general. KKK won't even respond to an email on the matter
police will harass anyone of any sex or race.
But I mean if other venues were charging out the wazoo, what choice would the organizers have? Anarchists aren't made of money.
It's a bit dishonest comparing kink to the police and the KKK. I mean, they exploit workers and put out bad porn, but they've yet to straight up shoot people dead.
Cmon where do you want them to go? Where's another venue that is good and they can afford?

[Jimmie Higgins]

why not just host the meeting in a KKK/police/etc warehouse, are you okay with that, if it suits the needs of the organization and they had a hard time finding a "better" one?
i dream of a leftism that sees women as human beings. people wonder why women aren't so drawn to revleft or leftist organizations in general.

Good point. I wonder if they would have considered renting something from a company involved in meat production even though it might alienate some militant vegans or whatever.

[mew]

yeah. i realize i have more anti-porn opinions than most leftists have and i can kind of see where people are coming from, but the responses here and other places have been really dismissive and offensive. makes me think of this http://24.media.tumblr.com/db3c717e3a36f7b84e2cc7a7799b8c6f/tumblr_mh6nxycD5g1reb9mbo1_500.jpg

[Luís Henrique]

why not just host the meeting in a KKK/police/etc warehouse, are you okay with that, if it suits the needs of the organization and they had a hard time finding a "better" one?
i dream of a leftism that sees women as human beings. people wonder why women aren't so drawn to revleft or leftist organizations in general.

We live in a capitalist society; most places you can think of are private property where workers are exploited, or State precincts where the political repression of our class is organised.

Sure, I would prefer to have this kind of meeting in a union place, or a university, but, barring places such as police precincts or far-right organisation places, which would likely expose people to spies and provocateurs, I would prefer having it somewhere than not having anywhere, out of "principled" prudery.

And I don't think seeing women as human beings imply being shocked by their exploitation as porn actresses, while indifferent to their exploitation as seamsters, bakers, office clerks, shop assistants, or housewives, or that the problem that prevents women to adhere to leftist organisations is the left's soft stance on pornography. Rather, I would say, the left's lack of understanding of the specific ways of exploitation women are submitted to in the labour market in general, and in domestic work.


http://24.media.tumblr.com/db3c717e3...b9mbo1_500.jpg

That was funny, but what I see most of the time is the exact opposite: sex work depicted as slavery, in contrast to "normal" work in any other form of exploitation (one sloganeering line I have seen is "prostitution is not work, it is exploitation" - as if work wasn't exploitation first place).

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Good point. I wonder if they would have considered renting something from a company involved in meat production even though it might alienate some militant vegans or whatever.

That's really a nice idea; the left certainly needs to get rid of people who don't understand the difference between human beings and other animals.

Luís Henrique

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Anarchism in the US has far too much irrelevant moralising and superfluous lifestylism, and stuff like this is indicative.

[o well this is ok I guess]

yeah. i realize i have more anti-porn opinions than most leftists have and i can kind of see where people are coming from, but the responses here and other places have been really dismissive and offensive. makes me think of this http://24.media.tumblr.com/db3c717e3a36f7b84e2cc7a7799b8c6f/tumblr_mh6nxycD5g1reb9mbo1_500.jpg Look no one here particularly likes bdsm, I think we all "get" what the problem is
But once again
What do you want them to do?
Where do you want them to go?

[h0m0revolutionary]

Look no one here particularly likes bdsm, I think we all "get" what the problem is

BDSM can't be a mutually enjoyed practice between two (or more) consenting adults?

[o well this is ok I guess]

BDSM can't be a mutually enjoyed practice between two (or more) consenting adults? To be fair, even play-domination involves real elements.
Nonetheless, I really don't give a shit what you do in your bedroom/basement, and it's sort of unrelated to the topic at hand.

[LiveOnYourFeet]

Only problem I got with this is that porn is not exploitative because it's porn. No, it's two consenting adults who want to have fun in their own...kinky way, the real exploitation comes from the capitalist part of it. The workers in the porn industry are still wage slaves to capitalists.

[bricolage]

Hey, someone posted this more interesting, nuanced critique on @news. It brought my attention to some things I hadn't thought of, and it's pretty "on", imho. Dig it (http://anarchistnews.org/content/debate-surrounding-bay-area-anarchist-bookfairs-location-misses-nuance-porn-debate-real).
I thought this was pretty good.

[Devrim]

Look no one here particularly likes bdsm, I think we all "get" what the problem is


How do you know? I would imagine, from comments I have seen before, that a fair few people here do.

Devrim

[o well this is ok I guess]

How do you know? I would imagine, from comments I have seen before, that a fair few people here do.

Devrim Weird. I never got the vibe that bdsm was high on everyones porn rotation. I figured this was more an amateur cam sort of place.

[Ele'ill]

Good point. I wonder if they would have considered renting something from a company involved in meat production even though it might alienate some militant vegans or whatever.

wait you mean this kink kastle thing actually kills the women and serves them for dinner



That's really a nice idea; the left certainly needs to get rid of people who don't understand the difference between human beings and other animals.

Humans can consciously stop the physical pain and emotional trauma of animals in industrial agriculture in its current state, meat factories and so on, where as other animals can only bare their teeth in a snarl and cry out in pain and shiver as their mind breaks.

Luís Henrique

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

yeah. i realize i have more anti-porn opinions than most leftists have and i can kind of see where people are coming from, but the responses here and other places have been really dismissive and offensive. makes me think of this http://24.media.tumblr.com/db3c717e3a36f7b84e2cc7a7799b8c6f/tumblr_mh6nxycD5g1reb9mbo1_500.jpg

So, the thing about that comic is it doesn't really jive with what you're saying about kink.com = cops/klanners - it just says, ultimately, that sex work is as shitty as all work.
I mean, from a feminist standpoint, I'd go a step further and say all work is sex work given the universal sexualization of women's bodies under patriarchal rule. Sex as such (as a category of activity within heteropatriarchal and capitalist frameworks) is something we need to be deeply critical of, and I don't see how setting "sex work" aside from work generally, or patriarchal relationships to women's bodies as mediated by the wage relation generally, is particularly useful for challenging the heteropatriarchal construction of sex (and of women).
There's maybe more to be critical of in "porn" in many of its manifestations than "sex work" writ large, but I don't think that has anything to do with it being pornographic per se, so much as it tends to be racist, misogynist, encourage unsafe sex practices, etc. That probably can't be said of, for example, the Crash Pad series, or The Raspberry Reich.

[Jimmie Higgins]

wait you mean this kink kastle thing actually kills the women and serves them for dinnerNo, that renting from the meat industry might alienate some of the audience who are vegans just as renting from a porn company might alienate some feminists, women, and anarchists who don't share the same views on porn. Hell it might make someone who was actually raped a little uncomfortable to be in a place that is used for people to have play-rape.

It just seems like a bizzare choice - which is why I chalk it up to the organizers probably just under pressure to find a place (something I'm empathetic to, while I'm not empethetic to ideological justifications for the choice). But I think it's more of a problem that then when critcism is brought up, it's people on the left have treated it like it's not big deal or the concerns are dismissed or ideological arguments are used to wave away the concerns. If an author came to the event and wanted to make an argument about why anarchists and other radicals should support sex-workers, then that's just a debate and since that debate exists, it would be totallyt appropriate to have such a speaker. However, that this debate exists on the Left, and then to choose a location like this -- well it's a strange choice.

[ellipsis]

Well is kink or the meat industry any less or more questionable then renting from the Feds?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well is kink or the meat industry any less or more questionable then renting from the Feds?If you mean golden gate park - other than the high cost and that it's hard to get over there by public transportation, which is a good enough reason to want to relocate - in my opinion, no. Neither is saying that colleges wouldn't work because they have arms contracts and all manner of crap they do.

It's not where the money is going to that really concerns me, just that this good and broad event that can help people network and draw in people beyond just radical circles is going to be in a polarizing location that can potentially alienate people from these kinds of politics.

I think revolutionary class ideas like the best of marxism and anrchism have better answers for oppression because of the understanding of the relationship of oppression to class power in class societies. But choices such as this makes it harder to argue that our ideas about fighting things like sexism are serious.

[ellipsis]

Btw the owner just got busted with coke after police were tipped off concerning a potential illegal gun range in the basement. Sounds like an awesome place for anarchists.

[Ele'ill]

No, that renting from the meat industry might alienate some of the audience who are vegans just as renting from a porn company might alienate some feminists, women, and anarchists who don't share the same views on porn. Hell it might make someone who was actually raped a little uncomfortable to be in a place that is used for people to have play-rape.

It just seems like a bizzare choice - which is why I chalk it up to the organizers probably just under pressure to find a place (something I'm empathetic to, while I'm not empethetic to ideological justifications for the choice). But I think it's more of a problem that then when critcism is brought up, it's people on the left have treated it like it's not big deal or the concerns are dismissed or ideological arguments are used to wave away the concerns. If an author came to the event and wanted to make an argument about why anarchists and other radicals should support sex-workers, then that's just a debate and since that debate exists, it would be totallyt appropriate to have such a speaker. However, that this debate exists on the Left, and then to choose a location like this -- well it's a strange choice.

I think the concerns are dismissed sometimes and done so very callously and that's pretty lame. I have seen a lot of comments get called callous or insensitive in this case and I don't think they were. I think the main criticism here is why anarchists are relying entirely on what is apparently several organizers to organize a 'community event' and then complaining about the results (however justified or not). You would think the critical thought towards this would begin there where the actual solution to this problem is.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

"DUDE, I hear Kink.com is launching a new site called SALMONFUCKERS. The two regular doms are Derrick Jensen and Ben Barker who capture poor salmon with their bare hands"

:laugh:

[ellipsis]

They already have a show like that about noodling catfish.

[Ocean Seal]

That's really a nice idea; the left certainly needs to get rid of people who don't understand the difference between human beings and other animals.

Luís Henrique
Yeah, but a meat warehouse doesn't seem like the most pleasant place to put up a bookfair that lasts several hours.

[RedHal]

I don't think this is an issue of consenting adults engaged in consensual BDSM. It's a product being sold, the product is women being tortured, and the demographic for this product are men who find women in pain sexually arousing. With rape and violence against women so prevalent in society, it's pretty disturbing stuff.

[Ele'ill]

I don't think this is an issue of consenting adults engaged in consensual BDSM. It's a product being sold, the product is women being tortured, and the demographic for this product are men who find women in pain sexually arousing. With rape and violence against women so prevalent in society, it's pretty disturbing stuff.

Yeah, I think this is a good point however I don't entirely get it. I know three people who are into BDSM and they are women who introduced their partners to it. They moved on to film with it as side income. What is the actual issue here, sex and fetish? How can the issue be addressed as in what is the course of action against it and what is 'it'? How would bdsm videos look differently in a post revolutionary world or is it bdsm itself that is a problem?

[mew]

http://theunsexyfeminist.tumblr.com/post/25596423058/graphic-sexual-horror-bdsm-pornography-and-insex

[MarxArchist]

documentary critique


He mentions that she did not actually enjoy BDSM, but that because she was an addict and needed money to feed her addiction, she would do anything in front of a cameraNot cool. This is one major issue I have with sex work. When men/women are addicted to drugs and do it out of total desperation OR cannot provide the basics food/shelter/clothing without preforming sex acts. In advanced western nations the former is more common, in my opinion. Could most of these women survive without working at kink.com? I would think so, just not at the same level of income. If the choice is "do BDSM or starve in the streets" that's a different matter.


Brent Scott, founder of Insex, discusses why he decided to give the actresses numbers in place of names. He mentions that one actress and her boyfriend tried to use notoriety gained from her performances at Insex to get membership subscriptions for their own site. Scott frames the decision as something he did to protect his own interests; he seems to care little for the careers of the women, or their ability to function autonomously as porn actresses/use the experience with Insex to build their own reputations. Capitalists do this all the time. I'm not "allowed" to use my workplace to get side jobs or even discuss 'moonlighting' at work or even mention the company in relation to getting side work. I then become the 'competition'. I guess that set up seems sleazier in sex work though, a more obviously implied "ownership".

I'll need to watch the documentary before I comment on it with any certainty. I'll be attending the book-fair either way but will say the building was also used as ground zero in the oppression of workers during one of the largest strikes in history. It's not exactly a beacon of liberation that building.