Addiction and recovery

[soso17]

I was just reading the thread on whether god(s) exist, and I thought about 12 step programs. I am a recovering alcoholic and addict, and I've had quite a bit of success in Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. Research and empirical evidence have shown that these programs are incredibly effective in treating what was once considered a hopeless condition.

My question is about the leftist perspective(s) are on these programs. They are based on a belief in a higher power, which by no means has to be a god in the conventional sense. Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12 step programs are spiritual programs, not necessarily based in science, but based on the idea of a spiritual illness.

What would be a materialist perspective on these programs? Although they do posit a being greater than ourselves, the fact that these programs work IRL should not deter addicts and alcoholics from trying them, despite their idealistic nature.

Any thoughts?

--soso

[Art Vandelay]

As someone who struggles with alcohol consumption (I think that most people would call my an alcoholic) and occasionally with drug use, I must say that I think those groups are awful. First off alcoholism is not a disease, it is an addiction. It has also been proven that AA not only works for only about 26% of people and has been shown to operate in a similar manner to cults.

If AA and NA worked for you, then I am very happy for you and hope you continue on in your sobriety, however I still do have those criticisms of the organizations, I hope they didn't offend you. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go drink some beer.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

My buddy, who is an atheist, was in NA for several years and told me he considered the "higher power" to be himself. As in, "I am the higher power that can get me clean".

If it helps people with their addiction, I don't really care what they believe or what program they're in. "God", "myself", AA, NA; whatever helps.

[Os Cangaceiros]

As someone who struggles with alcohol consumption (I think that most people would call my an alcoholic) and occasionally with drug use, I must say that I think those groups are awful. First off alcoholism is not a disease, it is an addiction. It has also been proven that AA not only works for only about 26% of people and has been shown to operate in a similar manner to cults.

I've been to AA/NA before (court-ordered), and while there are people there who can literally quote line & paragraph from "the big book", calling it a "cult" isn't really accurate. There are no repurcussions for leaving AA/NA; you are free to stay or leave, in most cases without anyone even thinking less of you for leaving, as people in AA/NA are pretty non-judgemental. That's obviously different from cults, which use all sorts of coercive and abusive methods to keep people in the organization.

[Art Vandelay]

I've been to AA/NA before (court-ordered), and while there are people there who can literally quote line & paragraph from "the big book", calling it a "cult" isn't really accurate. There are no repurcussions for leaving AA/NA; you are free to stay or leave, in most cases without anyone even thinking less of you for leaving, as people in AA/NA are pretty non-judgemental. That's obviously different from cults, which use all sorts of coercive and abusive methods to keep people in the organization.

I didn`t call it a cult, however, but rather said that in some ways it operates similar to a cult, something which is extremely hard to deny.

[Os Cangaceiros]

One could say the same about quite a few communist organizations. :D

[Art Vandelay]

One could say the same about quite a few communist organizations. :D

Haha touché.

[Lucretia]

There are two steps to any recover from addiction: the actual chemical/physical dependency, which may require something like going to a detox center; then the honing in on the deeper life issues that drove somebody to abuse the chemicals in the first place. This second part is usually more difficult than the first and requires serious introspection, changes in how one perceives one's self and one's own life. In other words, it usually requires professional help.

[Luís Henrique]

I was just reading the thread on whether god(s) exist, and I thought about 12 step programs. I am a recovering alcoholic and addict, and I've had quite a bit of success in Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. Research and empirical evidence have shown that these programs are incredibly effective in treating what was once considered a hopeless condition.

Well, I hope you overwhelming success in recovering, and if AA/NA helped/helps you, I don't think you should by no means change your commitment to the treatment because of philosophical issues. Not at least until you are very sure that you can discontinue it without any real risk of reincidence.

That said, I don't think the 12 step method is incredibly effective. It is lousy and only really helps a minority of people with addiction problems. One reason it appears to be way more successful than it actually is is because those it cannot help tend to give up the treatment, or refuse it from the start.


My question is about the leftist perspective(s) are on these programs. They are based on a belief in a higher power, which by no means has to be a god in the conventional sense. Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12 step programs are spiritual programs, not necessarily based in science, but based on the idea of a spiritual illness.

To the extent that they work, I fear that they work because they substitute another addiction for alcohol/drugs. The ritualistic dynamics of the 12 step is quite similar to the dynamics of drug addiction (starting with the "just today" mantra, which is exactly the lie addicts tell themselves about drug addiction - just more one dose, tomorrow I will stop). With this I don't intend to minimise what the 12 step program does for those who profit from it: weekly meetings with other people with a similar problem may be an addiction of itself, but is by far less destructive than any drug. Alcohol, opiates, cocaine, meth, anphetamines, will all kill you, and make you mad before that. The 12 step program won't kill you, and if it is a kind of madness, it is a quite mild one compared to alcoholism and toxicomania.


As someone who struggles with alcohol consumption (I think that most people would call my an alcoholic) and occasionally with drug use, I must say that I think those groups are awful. First off alcoholism is not a disease, it is an addiction. It has also been proven that AA not only works for only about 26% of people and has been shown to operate in a similar manner to cults.

For anyone who has no problems with alcohol or heavy drugs, they are awful (that probably being a reason they are so unsuccessful in fighting tobacco addiction). But for those for whom they work, they are excellent and necessary - at least until someone invents some other better form of treatment. Up to now, as I said above, they are very lousy treatments - but there are no reliable better methods, and 26% still beats 0% by full twenty-six percentual points.

And, oh, alcoholism is a disease, and a murderous one too.


What would be a materialist perspective on these programs? Although they do posit a being greater than ourselves, the fact that these programs work IRL should not deter addicts and alcoholics from trying them, despite their idealistic nature.

Any thoughts?

Yup. Whomever tries to convince anyone to quit such programs on philosophical bases is doing a disservice to people.

On the other hand, perhaps those of us who have huge issues with greater supernatural beings should avoid getting too close of drugs and alcohol, lest we want our (lack of) faith challenged in such a way.

Luís Henrique

[Astarte]

What would be a materialist perspective on these programs?

The same exact thing - only that "the group" as a human collective is substituted for "God" as a higher power than the self.

[Art Vandelay]

For anyone who has no problems with alcohol or heavy drugs, they are awful (that probably being a reason they are so unsuccessful in fighting tobacco addiction). But for those for whom they work, they are excellent and necessary - at least until someone invents some other better form of treatment. Up to now, as I said above, they are very lousy treatments - but there are no reliable better methods, and 26% still beats 0% by full twenty-six percentual points.

Except this runs on the ridiculous notion that people can't beat alcoholism on their own, or with other methods of treatment; which I'm going to let stand for itself, because it is so obviously false to anyone whose ever done any reading on the nature of addiction.


And, oh, alcoholism is a disease, and a murderous one too.

No it is not. I can't stop smoking cigarettes, or some people can't stop shooting heroin, are those diseases too?

[soso17]

Except this runs on the ridiculous notion that people can't beat alcoholism on their own, or with other methods of treatment; which I'm going to let stand for itself, because it is so obviously false to anyone whose ever done any reading on the nature of addiction.

Are you kidding me? READING about addiction, especially considering the number of dubious books and websites out there claiming to know a damn thing about addiction. Addiction is not something that makes sense to non-addicts. There is something inherently different about the relationship between an addict and mind-altering substances, as compared to non-addicts. I can read about pregnancy all day long, and I will NEVER truly understand it.

Also, yes, there are people who beat alcoholism on their own. They are definitely the exception. Before AA was founded, the majority of alcoholics were considered hopeless, and often ended up institutionalized for their own safety. Addiction is NOT a problem of willpower, discipline, or any other right-wing "bootstrap" argument.

Do you know anyone who suffers from alcoholism or drug addiction? To anyone who's been close to an addict, they know that life is HELL in active addiction. It is as if you have completely lost all control of your life. You become someone you would never recognize--a liar, a thief, a cheater, a bad father/mother, son/daughter, husband/wife. You find yourself in disgusting situations with seedy people. I bet you think alcoholism means getting drunk at parties and embarrassing yourself. Well I got news for you. It's a living nightmare.



[/QUOTE] No it is not. I can't stop smoking cigarettes, or some people can't stop shooting heroin, are those diseases too?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

Your smug, judgmental attitude makes you sound more like Stormfront than RevLeft.

--soso

[Luís Henrique]

Except this runs on the ridiculous notion that people can't beat alcoholism on their own, or with other methods of treatment; which I'm going to let stand for itself, because it is so obviously false to anyone whose ever done any reading on the nature of addiction.

What other methods of treatment?


No it is not. I can't stop smoking cigarettes, or some people can't stop shooting heroin, are those diseases too?

Of course they are, with ICD codes (http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F10-F19) and all (alcoholism is F10-2, tobacco addiction is F.17.2, heroin addiction is F11.2; other drugs range from F.12.2 (marijuana) to F19.2 (multiple drugs)).

Luís Henrique

[Quail]

Interesting thread. I don't know too much about the 12 step program at AA/NA having never really looked into it myself. I do think that alcoholism or any addiction is an illness though, a mental illness. Addiction totally messes up your priorities and your life, and some people do get over things on their own, but I think a lot of people need some kind of help and support. I don't like the idea of needing a "higher power" to be able to get better, personally, because I think that part of recovery from mental illness is learning to understand what triggers bad episodes and learning how to deal with things in a healthy, constructive way. I am mostly recovered from bulimia, which works very much like an addiction, and I kind of see myself as having taken control back from my illness so that now I'm in control of how I eat, instead of food and bulimia controlling me. That requires me to be the "highest power", if that makes sense.

[Art Vandelay]

Are you kidding me? READING about addiction, especially considering the number of dubious books and websites out there claiming to know a damn thing about addiction. Addiction is not something that makes sense to non-addicts. There is something inherently different about the relationship between an addict and mind-altering substances, as compared to non-addicts. I can read about pregnancy all day long, and I will NEVER truly understand it.

Yeah the first 'dubious book' having been written by a charlatan who demanded whiskey on his death bed.


Also, yes, there are people who beat alcoholism on their own. They are definitely the exception. Before AA was founded, the majority of alcoholics were considered hopeless, and often ended up institutionalized for their own safety. Addiction is NOT a problem of willpower, discipline, or any other right-wing "bootstrap" argument.

How about you don't resort to strawmen and potentially a decent discussion could be had, although I highly doubt that is possible with you, I never made some 'right wing bootstrap' argument; alcoholism and addiction are not problems, but symptoms of problems, ie: mental illness.


Do you know anyone who suffers from alcoholism or drug addiction? To anyone who's been close to an addict, they know that life is HELL in active addiction. It is as if you have completely lost all control of your life. You become someone you would never recognize--a liar, a thief, a cheater, a bad father/mother, son/daughter, husband/wife. You find yourself in disgusting situations with seedy people. I bet you think alcoholism means getting drunk at parties and embarrassing yourself. Well I got news for you. It's a living nightmare.

You know what, I probably shouldn't do this, but fuck you. You know nothing about me, or my mental health, or my issues with substances. Thank you for showcasing literally what I am talking about. This fucking condescending attitude which exists among the AA crowd, its honestly so fucking ridiculous. Since I have a differing opinion on the nature of addiction, I have no idea what I'm talking about. You are literally the perfect example of exactly what is wrong with that organization, the idea that anyone who disagrees with it has their head up their ass. Not that I need to prove anything to you (or that it is anything to brag about, its the opposite), but I suffer from some pretty serous mental health issues, have daily been on verge of suicide for I can't even remember how long and drink every single day, as well as partake in other drugs; so before you go getting all high and mighty and characterizing me as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about (although I must say this is absolutely the norm for the AA milieu) how about shutting your mouth and listening.


Yes.

Your smug, judgmental attitude makes you sound more like Stormfront than RevLeft.

--soso

Do you even know what a disease is?

[Art Vandelay]

What other methods of treatment?

Getting proper, professional help, for the mental illness which drove one into the clutches of substance abuse to begin with.


Of course they are, with ICD codes (http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F10-F19) and all (alcoholism is F10-2, tobacco addiction is F.17.2, heroin addiction is F11.2; other drugs range from F.12.2 (marijuana) to F19.2 (multiple drugs)).

Luís Henrique

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-heart-addiction/201112/is-addiction-really-disease

Oh look, I can drop a single link as well, its not an argument however. Bottom line, is that addiction has almost nothing in common with a regular disease.


Widespread enthusiasm for the disease model, however, has led to willingness to overlook the facts. Addiction has very little in common with diseases. It is a group of behaviors, not an illness on its own. It cannot be explained by any disease process. Perhaps worst of all, calling addiction a "disease" interferes with exploring or accepting new understandings of the nature of addiction.

This becomes clear if you compare addiction with true diseases. In addiction there is no infectious agent (as in tuberculosis), no pathological biological process (as in diabetes), and no biologically degenerative condition (as in Alzheimer's disease). The only "disease-like" aspect of addiction is that if people do not deal with it, their lives tend to get worse. That's true of lots of things in life that are not diseases; it doesn't tell us anything about the nature of the problem. (It's worthwhile to remember here that the current version of the disease concept, the "chronic brain disease" neurobiological idea, applies to rats but has been repeatedly shown to be inapplicable to humans. Please see earlier posts in this blog or my book, Breaking Addiction, for a full discussion of the fallacy of this neurobiological disease model for addiction.)

As readers of this blog or my books knows, addictive acts occur when precipitated by emotionally significant events, they can be prevented by understanding what makes these events so emotionally important, and they can be replaced by other emotionally meaningful actions or even other psychological symptoms that are not addictions. Addictive behavior is a readily understandable symptom, not a disease.

[Futility Personified]

Addiction has little in common with the known conception of disease as it is a psychological condition. Addiction IS a mental illness. Precisely why it is not a disease, in the same way that schizophrenia, depression, psychosis etc are not diseases. Pretty sure diseases are physical entities. That said, slowly but surely science is showing biological indicators of the aforementioned, so maybe one day mental illness will not be a concept, it'll just be an expansion of medical science.

That said, it is perfectly understandable to consider addictions diseases, because they are awful degenerations of someone's quality of life.

[Misanthrope]

It has also been proven that AA not only works for only about 26% of people and has been shown to operate in a similar manner to cults.



Could source this please

[xvzc]

Would comrades be interested in picking up this discussion? I have been sober for two months and am currently in AA program which has helped me tremendously. Kasama had a great discussion on alcoholism (http://kasamaproject.org/communist-organization/3288-20communist-line-struggle-over-alcoholism-part-1) on their website.

Alcoholics and drug addicts go through an uncontrollable thought process or mental obsession which leads to a physical compulsion to drink or use drugs. After the first drink (line, smoke, ...) physical craving kicks in and the alcoholic becomes powerless to stop. I prioritized drug use over everything else despite whatever detrimental consequences this may have had, and if something caused difficulty or hindered my using it had to make way. This is obviously thoroughly irrational but such is the nature of addiction.

If you find it difficult to relate to this self-destructive insanity, then you are probably not an alcoholic or a drug addict. A gentleman dying in a gutter with a needle in his arm may sound unappealing to you, but when it comes to an addict such as myself a completely different set of emotions arise.

[RedWaves]

I think spending time with people helps fight addiction. Many people believe it's church and a higher power helping these people get free in the ministry addiction programs but I truly believe it is the fact people are spending time with the user and helping them.

[Prometeo liberado]

Been working a program myself for 2 years now and all I can say is that AA is only as good as the people who attend the meetings. I have never found my atheism at odds with AA and my sobriety. I go to meetings where there are more than a few lefty's and no one seems to mind. Just stay sober TODAY.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I went to an AA meeting tonight, just because I was bored and it was either do that or drink, and I've been hitting the bottle pretty hard over the last few nights. I was interested in hearing some perspectives on alcohol and drug abuse from some other folks, even though in my heart I know that I'm not really willing to quit drinking full-stop, which is what AA is really all about. The people at the meeting were nice but the experience kind of left me cold. I've often used drugs & alcohol to try and fill the deep lack of meaning I have in my life, and AA tries to use the "higher power" aspect to cover that. And, while that "higher power" is abstract enough to be just about anything, I've already racked my brain more-or-less constantly for something, ANYTHING, to fill that void in place of self-destruction, but have never found it...not drugs, or alcohol, or sex, or religion, or ideology, or ANYTHING.

But, it was probably better than going out and getting hammered and repeatedly stabbing myself in the hand with a knife in order to prove to my friends that I wasn't afraid to fight them, which is what I did last night.