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Os Cangaceiros
8th February 2013, 22:47
Title is kind of misleading, as half of it's about one specific indigenous tribe in Venezuela (although it also mentions violence in other smale scale societies), but I thought it might be of interest to someone:

http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/farewell-to-the-myth-of-the-noble-savage.aspx

l'Enfermé
8th February 2013, 22:56
Catholic missionaries with whom he had also fallen out after he exposed their tendency to supply shotguns to Yanomamo Indians to lure them into settlements
Catholics, oh you :lol:

Lee Van Cleef
8th February 2013, 23:51
Having studied anthropology, I am all too familiar with Chagnon's work and the huge controversy it sparked, which continues to this day. The main issue with Chagnon is not his conclusion that tribal societies engage in warfare, but the conclusions he took from this fact, and the way he regarded and treated the communities he worked with as little more than lab animals.

I don't know who this Matt Ridley is, but he seems to be another Darwinist in the Dawkins vein. I really wish these people would stick to the hard science and quit trying to involve themselves in making ridiculously broad judgements about humanity and society. Of course people fight wars over more than just "access to protein." That in itself is a biologically determinist idea which, thankfully, Chagnon's initial research did refute quite well. However, he unfortunately drew bio-determinist conclusions with equally harmful implications from the idea of "wars for control of women."

Contrary to the author's claims in the article, mainstream anthropology had largely abandoned the popular image "noble savage" by the 1950s. By the 70s, the only person who seemed at all shocked that small tribal communities fought with each other was Chagnon himself. From this, he concluded that "primitive society" was inherently violent and animalistic.

Deciding that they had no social value, Chagnon agreed to assist the Atomic Energy Commission in conducting covert biological experiments on these people, without their knowledge or permission. Aside from taking blood samples and tampering with the water supply, the Yanomamo were also inoculated with a strong dose of live measles. This resulted in an outbreak in a previously unexposed population, and a huge number of people died.

There was also a scandal involving Chagnon's relationship with a 14 year old girl, whom he later married and took back to the US, and his refusal to speak out against a French colleague who sexually preyed on Yanomamo children for years.

The 2010 film Secrets of the Tribe (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1567736/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) provides a great overview of this whole tragedy, as well as Chagnon's meager refutation and finger-pointing.

Os Cangaceiros
9th February 2013, 00:51
Deciding that they had no social value, Chagnon agreed to assist the Atomic Energy Commission in conducting covert biological experiments on these people, without their knowledge or permission. Aside from taking blood samples and tampering with the water supply, the Yanomamo were also inoculated with a strong dose of live measles. This resulted in an outbreak in a previously unexposed population, and a huge number of people died.

http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/483/art%253A10.1007%252Fs12110-011-9103-y.pdf?auth66=1360543823_39aca6add07bf6b8182d36f62b 3deffa&ext=.pdf

Os Cangaceiros
9th February 2013, 01:15
Anyway, based on that and what Wiki says about the subject...



Most of the allegations made in Darkness in El Dorado were publicly rejected by the Provost's office of the University of Michigan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Michigan) in November 2000.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Chagnon#cite_note-umichprovost-6) For example, the interviews upon which the book was based all came from members of the Salesian Society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salesian_Society) (an official society of the Roman Catholic Church) which Chagnon had criticized, and thus angered, in his book.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Chagnon#cite_note-LA_Times_200-01-30-7)

Tierney has since claimed that, "Experts I spoke to then had very different opinions than the ones they are expressing now."[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Chagnon#cite_note-8)

Brazilian director José Padilha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilha) revisits the Darkness in El Dorado controversy in his documentary Secrets of the Tribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secrets_of_the_Tribe). The film, screened at the 2010 Sundance Film Festival (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundance_Film_Festival) was nominated for a Grand Jury Prize. It includes testimonials from key players.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Chagnon#cite_note-9)

Alice Dreger, an historian of medicine and science, and an outsider to the debate, concluded after a year of research that Tierney's claims were false and the American Anthropological Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Anthropological_Association) was complicit and irresponsible in helping spread these falsehoods and not protecting "scholars from baseless and sensationalistic charges"

...it does seem like his reputation was slandered. That's not right regardless of whether one agreed with his findings or not.

I'm not an expert on anthropology so my mind is open on this matter. I just thought it was an interesting contra viewpoint to many other views I've seen.

Lee Van Cleef
9th February 2013, 01:29
http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/483/art%253A10.1007%252Fs12110-011-9103-y.pdf?auth66=1360543823_39aca6add07bf6b8182d36f62b 3deffa&ext=.pdf
I'm quite aware that Tierney's book was a bias hit piece and that Chagnon didn't intend for anyone to be hurt. Nonetheless, he welcomed AEC funding with open arms and was complicit in bringing the researchers into contact with the Yanomamo. Of course everyone has to decide for themselves what is ethical or not, but the vast majority of anthropologists would try to shy away from introducing US government medical research to a "virgin population," even if they claimed they only wanted blood tests.

Chagnon was aware of their intent to inoculate the Yanomamo, but claims that he did not anticipate the strain or dosage. Of course these things were out of his hands by then, but there is little doubt that Chagnon's behavior was highly unethical and put these people into a potentially dangerous situation.

He could have easily turned down the AEC funding for this particular trip into the field, considering he was the world expert on the community in question. He took the job because he was genuinely interested in analyzing "virgin populations" - even though he knew he would be using his influence in the community to subject people to tests that many objected to at the time.