Portugal to end up like Greece

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Any person with a normal inteligence can tell you that this crisis is going to make Portugal and Spain end up like Greece, but these recent months have proven it to be closer than expected.
The left is getting bigger with the crisis, the demonstrations are getting more common, the conversations people have are all about the crisis, unemployment is close to 20% and rising, etc.
Politics has stopped being a boring subject or something to be taken lightly.
The fight between fascists and leftists has not yet begun, and I have only seen it occur in walls (I will later post a picture so that you will understand).
Anarchism is getting bigger, I have seen people who sympathise with anarchism, yet think badly of communism (because of USSR). Meanwhile fascism right now is not an atractive idea, it is seen very badly and often used as an insult by portuguese politicians (and me).
Here and now a fascist is not seen as good person, he is seen for what he really is. I hope this popular anti-fascist sentiment remains like it is.

Now the PCP, who many users here on revleft consider to be a great revolutionary party, has begun using the slogan "for a patriotic leftist government". What kind of communist party is this one that uses a slogan refering patriotism?

The CGTP, the main big syndicate, is the only organization that will stand by the workers. They are the ones who organize the big nationwide demonstrations. They are the most revolutionary organisation we have, yet they are still too moderate.

I expect the struggle is going to get even more intense from now on.

[Ravachol]

Now the PCP, who many users here on revleft consider to be a great revolutionary party, has begun using the slogan "for a patriotic leftist government". What kind of communist party is this one that uses a slogan refering patriotism?


One that isn't communist but populist leftist with nationalist rethoric. ie. the PCP.

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

Ok, I'm watching the video here (http://www.pcp.pt/%C2%ABpor-uma-pol%C3%ADtica-alternativa-patri%C3%B3tica-e-de-esquerda%C2%BB) and I am horrified. The Communist Party does not once relates the austerity measures with capitalism! In fact, they blame 'supranational interests' avoiding 'national development'!

Jerónimo Sousa also talks about 'giving back what is just for the workers'. This means nothing. What is 'just'?

Well now I see the PCP is trying to form a left front with patriot democrats against the troika, is that it?

I'm not in place to really judge PCP's stances, since I do not live in Portugal, therefore, don't know the actual situation. So if more Portuguese revlefters can give an insight, please do so.

[Luís Henrique]

Jerónimo Sousa also talks about 'giving back what is just for the workers'. This means nothing.

Of course it means something. It means that he never read, or understood, the Critique of the Gotha Programme.

Luís Henrique

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Any person with a normal inteligence can tell you that this crisis is going to make Portugal and Spain end up like Greece, but these recent months have proven it to be closer than expected.
The left is getting bigger with the crisis, the demonstrations are getting more common, the conversations people have are all about the crisis, unemployment is close to 20% and rising, etc.
Politics has stopped being a boring subject or something to be taken lightly.
The fight between fascists and leftists has not yet begun, and I have only seen it occur in walls (I will later post a picture so that you will understand).
Anarchism is getting bigger, I have seen people who sympathise with anarchism, yet think badly of communism (because of USSR). Meanwhile fascism right now is not an atractive idea, it is seen very badly and often used as an insult by portuguese politicians (and me).
Here and now a fascist is not seen as good person, he is seen for what he really is. I hope this popular anti-fascist sentiment remains like it is.

Now the PCP, who many users here on revleft consider to be a great revolutionary party, has begun using the slogan "for a patriotic leftist government". What kind of communist party is this one that uses a slogan refering patriotism?

The CGTP, the main big syndicate, is the only organization that will stand by the workers. They are the ones who organize the big nationwide demonstrations. They are the most revolutionary organisation we have, yet they are still too moderate.

I expect the struggle is going to get even more intense from now on.
Who believes this?

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Ok, I'm watching the video here (http://www.pcp.pt/%C2%ABpor-uma-pol%C3%ADtica-alternativa-patri%C3%B3tica-e-de-esquerda%C2%BB) and I am horrified. The Communist Party does not once relates the austerity measures with capitalism! In fact, they blame 'supranational interests' avoiding 'national development'!

That is what they do.


Well now I see the PCP is trying to form a left front with patriot democrats against the troika, is that it?

No, they are trying to unite left-wing nationalists with other stalinists.


I'm not in place to really judge PCP's stances, since I do not live in Portugal, therefore, don't know the actual situation. So if more Portuguese revlefters can give an insight, please do so.

I am the only one who can, since I am the only portuguese person (in 10 million) who goes on revleft.
The PCP uses the communist symbols and calls itself marxist-leninist, but it is merely a social-democratic party disguised as communist. A communist in Portugal is always seen as a stalinist, because almost all communists here are stalinists. These stalinists I speak of are the kind who have pictures of all communist leaders on the walls, and communist books all over the place.
The PCP is not a vanguard party, the only party to claim that it the PCTP-MRPP, and those guys only got 1% of votes duting elections, not enough for a single seat in parlaiment.


Who believes this?

I don't remember the person's username, but I remember I reacted badly to that.

[Delenda Carthago]

Now the PCP, who many users here on revleft consider to be a great revolutionary party, has begun using the slogan "for a patriotic leftist government". What kind of communist party is this one that uses a slogan refering patriotism?

The problem is not patriotism, as this could have many meanings(even though I am afraid they mean it like "national unity" between workers and the capitalists). The problem is that their goal is a fuckin GOVERNMENT!?

Not revolution perhaps? Fuck me!:cursing:

[TheRedAnarchist23]

The problem is not patriotism, as this could have many meanings(even though I am afraid they mean it like "national unity" between workers and the capitalists). The problem is that their goal is a fuckin GOVERNMENT!?

Not revolution perhaps? Fuck me!:cursing:

Their goal is getting power, nothing more. They are taken advantage of the crisis to make themselves look like a solution, but revolution is not even considered by them. Their only noticeable goal is renegociating the conditions with the troika, and that just means they are going to leave it as it is.
We don't need a communist party, we need social revolution!

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

Or maybe a revolutionary communist party.


Well, the PCTP-MRPP apparently does not bother to think about revolution as well (http://www.pctpmrpp.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=557:troica-fora-de-portugal-democracia-e-independencia-nacional&catid=95&Itemid=435).

They are also trying to build an "alternative" so that the workers and the people can retrieve their jobs, wages and rights.

Their goal seems to be the elections, indeed.

[Ravachol]

The problem is not patriotism, as this could have many meanings(even though I am afraid they mean it like "national unity" between workers and the capitalists).

What meanings can it have that have anything even remotely to do with the communist project?

[Delenda Carthago]

What meanings can it have that have anything even remotely to do with the communist project?
One can say that "patriotism" is the benefit of the people, not the profits of the bourgeois.

For example, when the crisis first broke out in Greece, the capitalist's ideology was "selling" the "they hate Greece", "its the germans", "we must unite against them" bullcrap PCP is selling to the portuguese right now. Or even worse that patriotism is to "put a back" to the government, to pay our debts and get on track again.

To that KKE used a slogan at that period: Uprise! The people should not pay(ie the crisis). This is what patriotism is.

You can see that this is 180 degrees from the upper position.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Or maybe a revolutionary communist party.


Well, the PCTP-MRPP apparently does not bother to think about revolution as well (http://www.pctpmrpp.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=557:troica-fora-de-portugal-democracia-e-independencia-nacional&catid=95&Itemid=435).

They are also trying to build an "alternative" so that the workers and the people can retrieve their jobs, wages and rights.

Their goal seems to be the elections, indeed.

Percebes português?

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

Percebes português?

Sim. Ex-colônia.

[Old Bolshie]

Any person with a normal inteligence can tell you that this crisis is going to make Portugal and Spain end up like Greece, but these recent months have proven it to be closer than expected.
The left is getting bigger with the crisis, the demonstrations are getting more common, the conversations people have are all about the crisis, unemployment is close to 20% and rising, etc.
Politics has stopped being a boring subject or something to be taken lightly.
The fight between fascists and leftists has not yet begun, and I have only seen it occur in walls (I will later post a picture so that you will understand).

The austerity plan will drive not only Portugal but all the other European countries with debt crisis to the greek situation. It was implemented as a way to impoverish the population in order to make these countries more attractable to foreign investment in their perspective of course.

The left is growing, right. But what left? The center-left which are already leading the polls and will form the next government very soon. The other left (PCP and BE) grew very little and they barely surpass the 10% barrier.

The right wing in Portugal and elsewhere in Europe are the fascists of yesterday, no doubt about that. What we are seeing is a retrogress of of the class struggle as workers rights are being cut in a very fast pace.


Anarchism is getting bigger, I have seen people who sympathise with anarchism, yet think badly of communism (because of USSR). Meanwhile fascism right now is not an atractive idea, it is seen very badly and often used as an insult by portuguese politicians (and me).
Here and now a fascist is not seen as good person, he is seen for what he really is. I hope this popular anti-fascist sentiment remains like it is.Anarchism is getting bigger but where are the organizations? You already told me that there are almost none active in the country right now.


Now the PCP, who many users here on revleft consider to be a great revolutionary party, has begun using the slogan "for a patriotic leftist government". What kind of communist party is this one that uses a slogan refering patriotism?

The CGTP, the main big syndicate, is the only organization that will stand by the workers. They are the ones who organize the big nationwide demonstrations. They are the most revolutionary organisation we have, yet they are still too moderate.You criticize the PCP but at the same time you praise CGTP?

You should know that CGTP is controlled by the PCP since its foundation after the Carnation Revolution.

I agree with some of your critics on PCP but remember that during the PREC when the class struggle in Portugal developed and peaked at a very fast pace it was the PCP the main booster of it. The problem is that PCP became too attach to the system since the end of the PREC and even claims the constitution of the country to be theirs legacy.
It should be noted that the Portuguese constitution is one of the very few in the world which claims to be heading towards a socialist society in its preface although this has never been materialized in actions.