Cyprus: Construction workers on indefinite strike

[Crux]

Police attack strikers with teargas – International solidarity action needed! (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6151)

[Delenda Carthago]

No shit! The left government of AKEL, a prototype for SYRIZA, teargasing the workers?!


Any comments by the OP?

[Sasha]

i dont think KKE fanboys are in any position to critique....

we will remember who your thugs turned on October 2011 and who defended their actions....

[Crux]

No shit! The left government of AKEL, a prototype for SYRIZA, teargasing the workers?!


Any comments by the OP?
You'll make anything a "prototype for SYRIZA" (what was it last time? Oh right the KKE paper peddling lies about denmark and you swallowing it hook line and sinker because of your abject secterianism) to avoid looking at the role of the KKE. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/bus-workers-strike-t178341/index.html)
Of course your implication would be that I and my organization supports the SYRIZA right or indeed the leadership of SYRIZA. This is of course anything but the truth, but hey this isn't the first time you have had to run to lies to justify yourself. Oh and a further note the article is from our organization in Cyprus. So your backhand attempt at a smear is not very successful.

[Leo]

AKEL is ideologically as close to the KKE as it is to SYRIZA, if not more anyway.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

How come we have seen so few indefinete strikes? They are the only kind that works.

[tuwix]

Because people are scared. The last indefinite strike in Greek transport was an object of threads from government. If it lasted longer, police would attack the strikers.

I think before such action there must be agreement with some policemen who are against present policy of government too. There must be some self-defense.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Because people are scared. The last indefinite strike in Greek transport was an object of threads from government. If it lasted longer, police would attack the strikers.

I think before such action there must be agreement with some policemen who are against present policy of government too. There must be some self-defense.
It ain't coming from the pigs, maybe there are a few of them here and there, but not enough to actually defend the workers who are striking(When was the last time this happened in Greece, that's a laughing matter). You said it yourself, self-defense, not defense from the pigs.

[tuwix]

Policemen are people too. I don't see a purpose to dehumanize them. Many of them are against capitalism. Certainly, they don't understand their role in maintaining it, but I don't see a goal not allow them fight the capitalism.

[Crux]

Policemen are people too. I don't see a purpose to dehumanize them. Many of them are against capitalism. Certainly, they don't understand their role in maintaining it, but I don't see a goal not allow them fight the capitalism.
Well if it is possible to actively divide what is essentially the watchdogs of the state I'm all for it, but the greek situation would suggest that the Golden Dawn nazis have a significant base inside the police force, particularly the riot police. Maybe it's possible to sow seeds of division over that, but I don't think there's any mass of friendly cops in Greek that would be willing to cross over to the other side of the barricade, so to speak.

[tuwix]

I've heard about policemen who were striking and who fought against other policemen in Greece. It was released by Venezuelan TV Telesur.



I don't know if they were of the Golden Dawn but I doubt...

[Philosophos]

Policemen are people too. I don't see a purpose to dehumanize them. Many of them are against capitalism. Certainly, they don't understand their role in maintaining it, but I don't see a goal not allow them fight the capitalism.

I would like to see the "Many of them are against capitalism" because around here policemen are mostly fascists...

[Delenda Carthago]

You'll make anything a "prototype for SYRIZA"

Oh, snap. You got me there! Yes. I am making this up. Rite?:D


Αλέξης Τσίπρας: Η Κύπρος δεν χρειάζεται Μνημόνιο


http://www.avgi.gr/images/photoarchive/2012/9/25/14_high.jpg?w=458


Ο πρόεδρος της Κ.Ο. του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ΕΚΜ Αλέξης Τσίπρας εξέφρασε τη σταθερή αλληλεγγύη του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ ΕΚΜ στον αγώνα του Κυπριακού λαού και τόνισε πως η Κύπρος πρέπει να αποφύγει ένα Μνημόνιο που θα είναι εις βάρος των κατακτήσεων και των δικαιωμάτων των Κύπριων εργαζόμενων.
http://www.avgi.gr/ArticleActionshow.action?articleID=715889


Lets translate that, shall we?


The president of SYRIZA EKM Alexis Tsipras expressed the firm solidarity of SYRIZA EKM to the Cypriot people and stressed that Cyprus has to avoid a Memorandum to the detriment of the achievements and rights of Cypriot workers.A left capitalist government getting supported by a party that struggles for a new one! What a fuckin suprise!

And the question is: what would make SYRIZA better than AKEL? They are better persons? More honest perhaps? More smart? What?






(what was it last time? Oh right the KKE paper peddling lies about denmark and you swallowing it hook line and sinker because of your abject secterianism)You mean when you "exposed" me that Red-Green Allience is not participating on the austerity government, but its simply "criticaly supporting it"?


to avoid looking at the role of the KKE. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/bus-workers-strike-t178341/index.html)OMG! First of all, I had NO idea "Xekinima" was participating in Autonomi Paremvasi!!!! How low will you fuckers get?!

Just so everyone can have a clear view on what "A.P." is:
http://www.zougla.gr/blog/article/673282
http://prin.gr/?p=54 (btw PRIN is the newspaper of NAR, the biggest party in ANTARSYA)
http://ergatiki.gr/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=3727:i1002&Itemid=62 (the paper of SEK the greek branch of IST, also in ANTARSYA)

You are like the puppies of PASKE, the PASOK syndicalist part. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Another example of how "Xekinima" never left PASOK!:laugh::laugh::laugh:



Oh and a further note the article is from our organization in Cyprus. So your backhand attempt at a smear is not very successful.I see. So, your greek branch is pro "Government of the Left", your Cyprus one is against. Uhuh..:rolleyes:

[Delenda Carthago]

AKEL is ideologically as close to the KKE as it is to SYRIZA, if not more anyway.
Sure yeah. AKEL and SYRIZA think that you can have a "good" government in capitalism, KKE prefered losing half the voters of its in order not to sell out its idea on not participation on a capitalist government.

But I guess you know better...

[Crux]

Oh, snap. You got me there! Yes. I am making this up. Rite?:D

http://www.avgi.gr/ArticleActionshow.action?articleID=715889


Lets translate that, shall we?

A left capitalist government getting supported by a party that struggles for a new one! What a fuckin suprise!

And the question is: what would make SYRIZA better than AKEL? They are better persons? More honest perhaps? More smart? What?




You mean when you "exposed" me that Red-Green Allience is not participating on the austerity government, but its simply "criticaly supporting it"?

OMG! First of all, I had NO idea "Xekinima" was participating in Autonomi Paremvasi!!!! How low will you fuckers get?!

Just so everyone can have a clear view on what "A.P." is:
http://www.zougla.gr/blog/article/673282
http://prin.gr/?p=54 (btw PRIN is the newspaper of NAR, the biggest party in ANTARSYA)
http://ergatiki.gr/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=3727:i1002&Itemid=62 (the paper of SEK the greek branch of IST, also in ANTARSYA)

You are like the puppies of PASKE, the PASOK syndicalist part. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Another example of how "Xekinima" never left PASOK!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


I see. So, your greek branch is pro "Government of the Left", your Cyprus one is against. Uhuh..:rolleyes:
I am sorry I see no need to "debate" with someone as dishonest as yourself. Have fun in your sectarian fantasy land of straw men.

[Leo]

Sure yeah. AKEL and SYRIZA think that you can have a "good" government in capitalism

So does the KKE, its just that their understanding of a good capitalist government is more nationalistic compared to SYRIZA's liberalism... As is AKEL's understanding, ideologically. However coming to power in a EU member country via the elections obviously forced AKEL to tone their objections down.

[Delenda Carthago]

I am sorry I see no need to "debate" with someone as dishonest as yourself. Have fun in your sectarian fantasy land of straw men.
Yes. I am dishonest, SEK is dishonest, NAR is dishonest. Everyone is but SYRIZA.:laugh:

[Delenda Carthago]

So does the KKE, its just that their understanding of a good capitalist government is more nationalistic compared to SYRIZA's liberalism... As is AKEL's understanding, ideologically. However coming to power in a EU member country via the elections obviously forced AKEL to tone their objections down.
Yes, sure, as I said it: you obviously know better. It is very common symptom of stupidity that.

[Crux]

Yes. I am dishonest, SEK is dishonest, NAR is dishonest. Everyone is but SYRIZA.:laugh:
Point in case. First you try to paint us as AKEL then SYRIZA and then PASOK. Typical desperate sectarian. But let's do anything to avoid discussing what KKE actually does.

[Delenda Carthago]

Point in case. First you try to paint us as AKEL then SYRIZA and then PASOK. Typical desperate sectarian. But let's do anything to avoid discussing what KKE actually does.
Are you really THAT stupid or you just trying to find a way to get out of this? I m not gonna let you run with it dude.No fuckin way.

So lets break it down.

A.You support SYRIZA in Greece.
B. Supporting SYRIZA means that you support a "Government of the Left", ie a left capitalist government that will bring solutions to the people's problems.
C. AKEL is a case of that "government" of the Left.
D. AKEL also brought austerity measures to Cyprus.
E. SYRIZA was presenting AKEL until that point as a case study for the greek Left, accusing KKE that it didnt followed the footsteps of its "brother party"(AKEL was made by the CPCyprus which indeed in the past KKE had very close relations)


and an extra
F. Aftonomi Paremvasi, which is controlled by SYRIZA and you participate, is collaborating with PASOK, which you used to be part of, on, ow so many many cases. You are the Left excuse of the sell out syndicalist movement in Greece.


I DARE YOU to try to question any of that you fuckin lying piece of shit. Bring it on.

You are a joke.

[Leo]

Yes, sure, as I said it: you obviously know better. It is very common symptom of stupidity that.

Indeed, calling people stupid is obviously the best argument.

[ellipsis]

I DARE YOU to try to question any of that you fuckin lying piece of shit. Bring it on.

You are a joke.

Verbal warning for flame baiting. tone it down comrade.

[Skyhilist]

Seriously, this is the level we're reduced to right now?
Sectarian division like this isn't going to get us anywhere.

[Delenda Carthago]

Indeed, calling people stupid is obviously the best argument.
While calling a communist party that could easily be on the government right now(because its easy for you nobodies to talk all that "ultrarev" bs, when you are nothing that matters on the society, the tough is to stand by your word when you can actually sell out),nationalist and pro-capitalist is the smartest thing on the world, right?

[ellipsis]

Verbal warning for flame baiting. tone it down comrade.

Apparently this isn't the first offense. I'm issuing an infraction.

[Crux]

Are you really THAT stupid or you just trying to find a way to get out of this? I m not gonna let you run with it dude.No fuckin way.

So lets break it down.

A.You support SYRIZA in Greece.
B. Supporting SYRIZA means that you support a "Government of the Left", ie a left capitalist government that will bring solutions to the people's problems.
C. AKEL is a case of that "government" of the Left.
D. AKEL also brought austerity measures to Cyprus.
E. SYRIZA was presenting AKEL until that point as a case study for the greek Left, accusing KKE that it didnt followed the footsteps of its "brother party"(AKEL was made by the CPCyprus which indeed in the past KKE had very close relations)


and an extra
F. Aftonomi Paremvasi, which is controlled by SYRIZA and you participate, is collaborating with PASOK, which you used to be part of, on, ow so many many cases. You are the Left excuse of the sell out syndicalist movement in Greece.


I DARE YOU to try to question any of that you fuckin lying piece of shit. Bring it on.

You are a joke.
A. I realize the tradition you are trained in have a hard time with nuances. Yes, we called for a vote for SYRIZA (as we have called for a vote for the KKE as well in several elections). Is this a blanket support of SYRIZA (or the KKE)? Of course not. (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5823)

B. Yes we support a left government. Just as we, for instance, supported (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5985)the PSUV and Chavez in the recent venezuelan election, critically. We believe a left government could be a step forward, but we also believe that a government that does not break with capitalism will find themselves in a basically unviable position. Can a government of SYRIZA be forced to the left by pressure from below? We believe this is quite possible. Unlike you make no claim of being clairvoyants, but a left government of SYRIZA will put them on the spot, either they will bend to the pressure of capital or they will bend to the pressure from the masses.

C. Yes. So obviously your underhand accusation that we would be SYRIZA sycophants (perhaps mirroring how you relate to the KKE) is false, given our position on the AKEL government. (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5552)

D. See previous points.

E. Yes SYRIZA is lacking in program. Tell me something I don't know.

F. then you don't know anything about our trade union work. Meanwhile I notice you ignore that the KKE union current in the Bus Drivers union basically handed the victory to the right. This is far from the first time you have acted in this manner and it sadly will not be the last. But perhaps you are unable to see that because of your blinders.

[Delenda Carthago]

SYRIZA is lacking a programm? Really? Cause I thought it had one. Going against Germany and evil Merkel(who obviously forces the austerity because shes a *****,not because there is a core need on behalf of the Capital), with the help of Obama, IMF and various think tanks of capitalism.

Check it out people, so you dont let this guy make you think I make this stuff up.

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2013/01/25/alexis-tsipras-imf-seem-to-agree-new-debt-haircut-essential/
http://leninreloaded.blogspot.gr/2013/02/blog-post_298.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDrPGxvHzN8

And I dont see SYRIZA going more to the left- let along "clashing with capitalism".:laugh:

SYRIZA by the day is going more and more to a social-democratic road. And why? Is it because Tsipras and Milios are sellouts? Is it because they dont have enough pressure from below?
Or is it because nowdays capitalism has nothing to offer anymore? And a progressive left management of the system is not going to work- something that on the contrary of you, they are able to see.

So, nowdays, the days that the need of socialism is screaming, opportunism is once again the biggest enemy of the working class. Worse than the darkest reaction, as both Liebknecht and Lenin have pointed out. You are making the working class to fight under false flags. Instead of preparing the revolution, you are seeking ways to put make up on the face of the monster.


And dont get me started on PAME and Aftonomi Paremvasi. Everyone in here that has kept a track on the greek working class movement, can understand who is who.

[Crux]

SYRIZA is lacking a programm? Really? Cause I thought it had one. Going against Germany and evil Merkel(who obviously forces the austerity because shes a *****,not because there is a core need on behalf of the Capital), with the help of Obama, IMF and various think tanks of capitalism.

Check it out people, so you dont let this guy make you think I make this stuff up.

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2013/01/25/alexis-tsipras-imf-seem-to-agree-new-debt-haircut-essential/
http://leninreloaded.blogspot.gr/2013/02/blog-post_298.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDrPGxvHzN8

And I dont see SYRIZA going more to the left- let along "clashing with capitalism".:laugh:

SYRIZA by the day is going more and more to a social-democratic road. And why? Is it because Tsipras and Milios are sellouts? Is it because they dont have enough pressure from below?
Or is it because nowdays capitalism has nothing to offer anymore? And a progressive left management of the system is not going to work- something that on the contrary of you, they are able to see.

So, nowdays, the days that the need of socialism is screaming, opportunism is once again the biggest enemy of the working class. Worse than the darkest reaction, as both Liebknecht and Lenin have pointed out. You are making the working class to fight under false flags. Instead of preparing the revolution, you are seeking ways to put make up on the face of the monster.


And dont get me started on PAME and Aftonomi Paremvasi. Everyone in here that has kept a track on the greek working class movement, can understand who is who.
No, what I and my organization is saying is that the SYRIZA program is lacking. I have an issue with you trying to paint me and my organization as some kind of Tsipras loyalists. This is evidently not true and a dishonest way of arguing, if you could lose your secterian blinders for a second and address our actual positions instead that would be appreciated.

Out of curiosity what is your take on, say, the governments of Correa, Morales and Chavez? I agree that the quarter for a reformist government is limited, but I don't have much truck with the KKE's Third Periodism role play. It was wrong in the 30's and it's wrong today.

It's true capitalism has nothing to offer any more, but that's been basically true since the 1880's. Again, address what I am actually saying instead of what you're imagining I am saying. That's the prerequisite for having an actual debate.

And yet you can't address the concrete issue. The PAME fractons actions in the busworkers union objectively aided the right wing. And if you'd like I can find you more example's where the result has been the same.

I am revolutionary, but I obviously don't share your undying faith in the glorious leadership of the KKE as the harbingers of that revolution.

[Thirsty Crow]

I agree that the quarter for a reformist government is limited, but I don't have much truck with the KKE's Third Periodism role play.
This is absolutely dishonest.

In no way can KKE's position re: SYRIZA be taken as a manifestation of Third Period politics, since the historical situation is quite different. If GD received a good portion of votes and represented a real danger on the streets (by this I do not intend to minimize the threat that is actually there; but we're not talking about a Germany 30s situation here). If anything, KKE is absolutely right in its assessment of SYRIZA, which is far removed from the timid rhetoric of reformist governemnts having limited quarter. The real situation is more akin to renegotiation of debt in some details, which even brings the "reformist" assessment into question.

[Crux]

This is absolutely dishonest.

In no way can KKE's position re: SYRIZA be taken as a manifestation of Third Period politics, since the historical situation is quite different. If GD received a good portion of votes and represented a real danger on the streets (by this I do not intend to minimize the threat that is actually there; but we're not talking about a Germany 30s situation here). If anything, KKE is absolutely right in its assessment of SYRIZA, which is far removed from the timid rhetoric of reformist governemnts having limited quarter. The real situation is more akin to renegotiation of debt in some details, which even brings the "reformist" assessment into question.
Indeed the historical situation is different. KKE is merely a more blatant manifestation of a secterianism that is endemic on the greek left in general.
I think there needs to be a distinction made between the SYRIZA leadership and SYRIZA in general, and even more so between the leadership and the masses that have rallied to support them.
KKE fails to make this distinction, unsurprisingly. The masses are largely absent from their analysis, save for as pawns of the vile SYRIZA (going so far as making SYRIZA their main target for attack in their election campaign), but mass movements have their own dynamics. Just as with the reformist governments of Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador we have to take a balanced approach, not hiding our differences with the dead end that is reformism but also not stand in splendid isolation from the masses.

Delenda Carthago fails to address our actual position, which is one in direct opposition to the SYRIZA right and vacillations of Tsipras et al.

[Thirsty Crow]

I think there needs to be a distinction made between the SYRIZA leadership and SYRIZA in general, and even more so between the leadership and the masses that have rallied to support them. Time and time again it has been shown that such distinctions mask the real possibilities for revolutionaries within an organization that has been successfully integrated into the bourgeois state apparatus. More often than not, critical voices from a seemingly left perspective act as nothing else than "too little too late".

And of course, the distinction between voters and the party needs to be explored. Though, what is the significance of this distinction in our current case? Do you think that millions of voters are just itching to push SYRIZA in a revolutionary direction? This seems to me to be the case because you say:


...not hiding our differences with the dead end that is reformism but also not stand in splendid isolation from the masses....as if election results can be taken as a confirmation that SYRIZA has the massess with them, and moreover, that these "massess" are infallible and actually just waiting to burst out in open revolution, and that's why they vote SYRIZA.

If unconditional criticism of the reformism (even that is dubious!¨) of SYRIZA somehow means isolation from the workers to you, then I'm afraid that you actually can't make a crucial distinction here, that between opportunism (what else did occur under the guise of "going to the masses", resulting in popular fronts and one disaster for the working class after another?) and solid revolutionary positions.

[Crux]

Time and time again it has been shown that such distinctions mask the real possibilities for revolutionaries within an organization that has been successfully integrated into the bourgeois state apparatus. More often than not, critical voices from a seemingly left perspective act as nothing else than "too little too late".

And of course, the distinction between voters and the party needs to be explored. Though, what is the significance of this distinction in our current case? Do you think that millions of voters are just itching to push SYRIZA in a revolutionary direction? This seems to me to be the case because you say:

...as if election results can be taken as a confirmation that SYRIZA has the massess with them, and moreover, that these "massess" are infallible and actually just waiting to burst out in open revolution, and that's why they vote SYRIZA.

If unconditional criticism of the reformism (even that is dubious!¨) of SYRIZA somehow means isolation from the workers to you, then I'm afraid that you actually can't make a crucial distinction here, that between opportunism (what else did occur under the guise of "going to the masses", resulting in popular fronts and one disaster for the working class after another?) and solid revolutionary positions.
Well, let me take our positions in Venezuela an example. The Chavez government was pushed to the left by the masses.
And this is arguably a government that is no less limited than SYRIZA, yet they were forced to the left after the right attempted a coup against the government. Does that mean we have, or should, attempt to paint over the deficiencies of chavismo? No, but we have to find a way to relate to the masses that are quite genuine in their support for revolution.
Chavez came to power back in the 1990's on a relatively soft left populist/nationalist program, breaking down a decades long two-party system into ruins. One lesson from that is that it is possible to push a reformist government to the left, the other, no less crucial, is that years of vacilliation creates stagnation.

I think the unprecedented move to SYRIZA represent a yearning for a fundamentally different society not a yearning for PASOK mark 2 as the KKE allege. I think the en masse desertion of both members and voter from PASOK represents a step to the left, not "business as usual" just as the total collapse of the once dominant "left" of the two party system in Venezuela, Causa R, in favour of the left populist Chavez represented a real step to the left and a yearning for fundamental change on behalf of the masses.

Does that mean that these movements, and yearnings if you so will, are without contradiction? That we therefore have to condition our critique? I don't think so and I do not think that is what we have done.

[Delenda Carthago]

No, what I and my organization is saying is that the SYRIZA program is lacking. I have an issue with you trying to paint me and my organization as some kind of Tsipras loyalists. This is evidently not true and a dishonest way of arguing, if you could lose your secterian blinders for a second and address our actual positions instead that would be appreciated.

You support a party that wants to manage capitalism "on the benefit of the people". There is nothing more one can say about that. You may see it as a stage(as in, stage theory, you know?:lol:) to socialism, but guess what: the experience has showed to us that these things dont happen.





Out of curiosity what is your take on, say, the governments of Correa, Morales and Chavez?
All of them have taken their countries working classes fighting for a cause that its not theirs. All of them have the working class movement disoriented to support "the least worst solution".
Of course they are not the same between them. Specially Correa should be shot on the first rise of working classe's revolt. Its not by accident though that both Morales and Chavez has stopped giving to the people for a long time now. And that is obvious also by the people's reactions, specially on Bolivia.






It's true capitalism has nothing to offer any more, but that's been basically true since the 1880's.

Capitalism could afford to "cut some slack" way after 1880 on the working class. There were periods that after some movements and due to the fact that they could afford it, the capitalists were giving priveledges to the workers. Those days are long gone. And wont come back if we dont see a massive destruction of the means of production, the labor force and the goods. Not with right winger austerity, nor with left winger keynsianism.No matter how good your intentions are.



And yet you can't address the concrete issue. The PAME fractons actions in the busworkers union objectively aided the right wing. And if you'd like I can find you more example's where the result has been the same.

Even the fact that you are bringin the example of that strike, a strike that was called in solidarity with the metro workers strike which was requisitioned without a fight and the busses were left hanging striking in solidarity with...the air, shows how litle connection with the greek reality you have. Specially if you consider that even though the metro union was under the leadership of ANTARSYA and SYRIZA, PAME was the only one that actually gave a descent fight against the requisition. Damn dude.


I am revolutionary, but I obviously don't share your undying faith in the glorious leadership of the KKE as the harbingers of that revolution.

Yes. You are a revolutionary. A revolutionary that believes revolution is to come through reformism. Obviously you didnt catched the spirit of Lenin on its dialog with Kautsky, other than what you have on your signature.

[Crux]

You support a party that wants to manage capitalism "on the benefit of the people". There is nothing more one can say about that. You may see it as a stage(as in, stage theory, you know?:lol:) to socialism, but guess what: the experience has showed to us that these things dont happen.
Coming from a member of a party that publicly re-affirms their fidelity to Stalin, that's a bit rich. And once again you obviously did not read.


All of them have taken their countries working classes fighting for a cause that its not theirs. All of them have the working class movement disoriented to support "the least worst solution".
Of course they are not the same between them. Specially Correa should be shot on the first rise of working classe's revolt. Its not by accident though that both Morales and Chavez has stopped giving to the people for a long time now. And that is obvious also by the people's reactions, specially on Bolivia.
No, it's not by accident. What is the point of arguing with you if you are unable to even ever so tenuously grasp what our position is?


Capitalism could afford to "cut some slack" way after 1880 on the working class. There were periods that after some movements and due to the fact that they could afford it, the capitalists were giving priveledges to the workers. Those days are long gone. And wont come back if we dont see a massive destruction of the means of production, the labor force and the goods. Not with right winger austerity, nor with left winger keynsianism.No matter how good your intentions are.
Yes, keynsianism is not viable. Tell me again about the glorious People's Revolution advocated by the KKE.


Even the fact that you are bringin the example of that strike, a strike that was called in solidarity with the metro workers strike which was requisitioned without a fight and the busses were left hanging striking in solidarity with...the air, shows how litle connection with the greek reality you have. Specially if you consider that even though the metro union was under the leadership of ANTARSYA and SYRIZA, PAME was the only one that actually gave a descent fight against the requisition. Damn dude.
A more evasions and empty claims. I am wholly unsurprised.
So the KKE handed the victory to the right in the bus worker's union because..?



Yes. You are a revolutionary. A revolutionary that believes revolution is to come through reformism. Obviously you didnt catched the spirit of Lenin on its dialog with Kautsky, other than what you have on your signature.
I don't think an ex-nihilist gone stalinist should presume to tell me about Lenin. Or even more so what I believe. See I suspected discussing with you would be meaningless, dear provocateur. If it makes you feel better to imagine I am some keynsianist stage-theorist SYRIZA loyalist please keep those delusions to yourself the next time. But it gets tedious arguing with you when you're obviously arguing with a straw man and not yours truly.

[Delenda Carthago]

Coming from a member of a party that publicly re-affirms their fidelity to Stalin, that's a bit rich. And once again you obviously did not read.

As i have stated many many times in here, "stalinists" and "trots" are both categories for political corpses that have nothing new to say and are depending on analyses 60 years ago. KKE thankfully is neither. Actually, its being accused of both as the opposite. Ain that a *****?:lol:

Are you going to answer though, how come a trotskyist party is favouring the stages or you just gonna stay on ad hominem attacks?



No, it's not by accident. What is the point of arguing with you if you are unable to even ever so tenuously grasp what our position is?

The point is that you have nothing to say for a while now other than ad hominem attacks.



Yes, keynsianism is not viable. Tell me again about the glorious People's Revolution advocated by the KKE.

Of course. Resolution is in socialism. Dont you agree, my revolutionary comrade?



A more evasions and empty claims. I am wholly unsurprised.
So the KKE handed the victory to the right in the bus worker's union because..?

Yes. It was KKE's fault. Ok. It might have been SYRIZA-ANTARSYA that screw up the whole metro strike, but its dem godam stalinists fault. Whatever helps you feel comfortable.




I don't think an ex-nihilist gone stalinist should presume to tell me about Lenin. Or even more so what I believe. See I suspected discussing with you would be meaningless, dear provocateur. If it makes you feel better to imagine I am some keynsianist stage-theorist SYRIZA loyalist please keep those delusions to yourself the next time. But it gets tedious arguing with you when you're obviously arguing with a straw man and not yours truly.
Blah,blah blah and ad hominem. You boring.

[Delenda Carthago]

And if everything I posted, links and stuff, were not enough to show what SYRIZA has become(?), another one.

Sakorafa, an ex PASOK minister that jumped to SYRIZA when the ship of PASOK was going down, accuses Tsipras of showing "religious worship" to Obama. Thats were things over there has got. And some revolutionaries still support SYRIZA, as the "least bad option".


http://www.newsit.gr/default.php?pname=Article&art_id=191543&catid=9




Godamn sectarian KKE.:glare:

[Crux]

As i have stated many many times in here, "stalinists" and "trots" are both categories for political corpses that have nothing new to say and are depending on analyses 60 years ago. KKE thankfully is neither. Actually, its being accused of both as the opposite. Ain that a *****?:lol:
I dread to think what kind of bunker stalinists would accuse the KKE of being trotskyists.


Are you going to answer though, how come a trotskyist party is favouring the stages or you just gonna stay on ad hominem attacks?

We're not. Exposing your straw men and dishonest debating style is not an ad hominem. Again that charge is a bit rich coming from you.


The point is that you have nothing to say for a while now other than ad hominem attacks.
No. You obviously did not read what I had to say. Or if you did you are plainly not addressing it. Until you do I see no need to repeat myself further.


Of course. Resolution is in socialism. Dont you agree, my revolutionary comrade?
I do. But I think your "revolutionary phrases" are cheap.


Yes. It was KKE's fault. Ok. It might have been SYRIZA-ANTARSYA that screw up the whole metro strike, but its dem godam stalinists fault. Whatever helps you feel comfortable.
Ok, it seems you are unable to explain the actions of PAME then. And here I thought you had more faith in your party.


Blah,blah blah and ad hominem. You boring.
I'm sorry if politics bore you. Perhaps you should consider a different hobby.

[Delenda Carthago]

I dread to think what kind of bunker stalinists would accuse the KKE of being trotskyists.

That kind of. (http://www.koel.gr/)



We're not. Exposing your straw men and dishonest debating style is not an ad hominem. Again that charge is a bit rich coming from you.And why is that? Oh, yeah. Because I m a stalinist.:laugh:





I do. But I think your "revolutionary phrases" are cheap.And why is that? Oh yeah. Because we are stalinists.:laugh:



Ok, it seems you are unable to explain the actions of PAME then. And here I thought you had more faith in your party.I told you: whatever makes you feel comfortable.



I'm sorry if politics bore you. Perhaps you should consider a different hobby.Ad hominem attacks are politics? I didnt knew that.:confused:





I would still love to explain to me your stage strategy though. "Today SYRIZA, tommorow socialism". Its catchy. Or perhaps there is a middle stage in between? So it is "...the day after tommorow socialism":laugh:

[Crux]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2577029&postcount=26

I assume you can read. When the text is underlined and blue that means there is an embedded link, in case you were unaware of that. English is my second language too, so if that is the issue you are having feel free to use google translate. But it seems you are intent on trolling so I think I am done here. And, if you've already forgotten, you received first a warning and then an infraction for your behaviour in this thread.

[Delenda Carthago]

And to return to the issue of the thread, the point is simple: on the next elections, we gonna have SYRIZA at the government. Its pretty much "closed".

SYRIZA will have to manage capitalism, a system that runs on the healthy status of Capital AND also they have to stand by their word towards the people that supported them. So either Tsipras is going to start alchemy lessons to find how to make gold so that he will share it to the people, or things like "government of the Left, teargasing the workers" are going to be seen at Athens also.

And then, some revolutionaries will say "well, you know, we never were uhm, you know, cheering for Tsipras. We just supported it, you know, as a stage. Its not our fault anyway. Its KKE".:laugh:



Save this post if you want and run back to it in a couple of years.

[Crux]

And to return to the issue of the thread, the point is simple: on the next elections, we gonna have SYRIZA at the government. Its pretty much "closed".

SYRIZA will have to manage capitalism, a system that runs on the healthy status of Capital AND also they have to stand by their word towards the people that supported them. So either Tsipras is going to start alchemy lessons to find how to make gold so that he will share it to the people, or things like "government of the Left, teargasing the workers" are going to be seen at Athens also.

And then, some revolutionaries will say "well, you know, we never were uhm, you know, cheering for Tsipras. We just supported it, you know, as a stage. Its not our fault anyway. Its KKE".:laugh:



Save this post if you want and run back to it in a couple of years.
Cool story, bro (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5823). And, since you've obviously forgotten,the subject of this thread was the construction worker's strike in Cyprus, before you came in here with your straw men (http://www.xekinima.org/arthra/view/article/synenteyksi-sti-net-i-igesia-toy-syriza-pio-bathia-sto-d/).

[Delenda Carthago]

Cool story, bro (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5823).

Xekinima (http://www.xekinima.org/), the Socialist Party’s counterpart in Greece, which campaigned for a Syriza vote, argued for a clear socialist programme. This included ending all austerity, non-payment of the debt and nationalising the big banks and main planks of the economy under democratic workers’ control and management.

How is that working out for ya, bro? You think Tsipra's god, Obama, will help you with that, or what? Is IMF really your allie on the war against austerity or Tsipras is going woohoo?

[Crux]

How is that working out for ya, bro? You think Tsipra's god, Obama, will help you with that, or what? Is IMF really your allie on the war against austerity or Tsipras is going woohoo?
You swing and miss as always. Go play with your straw men elsewhere, I have nothing more to say to you. You have already exposed yourself as a dishonest troll yet again.

[Raúl Duke]

Please simmer down and get back on topic, this is about a worker strike in Cyprus not Syriza (CWI, etc) vs. KKE. Make another thread about that in the politics section, if you all like.