Palestine

[Kez]

Is it me or does no govt care about the situation in Palestine, i mean how the fuck are they getting away with it?
turfing up the palestian runways? wtf
they just attack palestinian land every friggin day

FUCK THE ZIONONIST DOGS
END THE INJUSTICE
UNITE AND FIGHT

comrade kamo

[DaNatural]

Kamo i agree 1000% this is bullshit, i dont know how sharon expects arafat to tame hamas and other groups, its like telling bush to control criminals in america its the same thing, they have no power over these guys. now there bombing the shit of his bases and tanks are right by him, unbeleivable and then that peice of shit ari fleisher says that israel has the right to defend itself, wtf is he talking about? israel is occupying lands in palestine not vice versa, palestinians have the right to defend themselves, this is unreal, palestine is gonna get crushed, u see the millitary force israel has? peace

[El Commandante]

The way that I see some short term peace coming about involves Arafat, he is the only person that seems a capable with reasoning with the terrorist / freedom fighter groups. Bombing his compound is not going to bring him on side. If they turn him against the government then all it will do is escalate the problem and make moderates feel like they have to turn to violence.

Violence isn't solving anything, all that is happening is more violence is being used in retaliation. This will just mean that more innocent Palestinian and Israeli civilians will be caught in the cross fire.

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, they should think about this saying before they take any more actions.

[CommieBastard]

Sharon made the statement he is fighting a war against terrorism...
And the US hearing this is saying "well, heck yeah, these guys are like us, lets help em". Fucking ridicuolous sickening manipulation of the current state of World Affairs...

[Derar]

this is all rediculous , and makes me sick .......
the us yesterday freezed money of three raise funding organizations , coz they claim it supports hamas ......
as the leader of hamas said : hamas is only supported by the ppl of palestine !
and ofcourse as soon as the us did that , it sent some missiles and biological weapons to israel , so it would kill some more palestinians .
Honestly , in my personal opinion , i dont think hamas or any of these r terrorist groups , they r just freedom fighters , but anyone of u would say : but they killed innocent ppl !! well , if u live there , and have a brother or a friend shot dead every single day , u'll know what's real terrorism , and u'll support the heck out of hamas , maybe u'll even join them .
and back to why they bomb cities , well tell me what can u do in this situation : ur country has been accupied for more than 50 years , thousands and thousands of the ppl from ur country have been killed , thousands still in prison , thousands tortured ......... and u cant do anything about it , becoz the accupying country is 110% backed by the most powerful country in the world ........... and the whole world is just watching ur ppl get killed and tortured every single day ....... u cant attack military targets , becoz u have no power to , no weapons , no backup , nothing !! would u just sit and watch !?
the goal from the bombings is not to kill civilians as the whole world thinks , would anyone of u hear about palestine if there were no suicide bombings !? onother goal is to try to attack the economical side of israel , ofcourse they did that by attacking tourism which had a great effect of israels economy ...... onother goal is to let the israeli ppl be against sharon's government , by letting them see that he doesnt provide peace , he is only a bringer of war !

[Drifter]

yeah well, thats what happens when the president of the us starts spurting out crap without thinking.
war on terror? the russians were quick to twist this to their advantage when it came to checsomething of other (i can't spell it but you know well what i mean)
now the isrealies have jumped on the same band-wagon.

[Kez]

The chechens are not living in a country, just somewhere where they are concentrated and want an independant country for no good reason.

comrade kamo

[Son of Scargill]

It's definately not good for the ppl.But Sharon has never seemed to want peace since he came to power.The present Israeli government has been undermining Arafats authority since day one by bombing police stations,Palestinian Authority buildings,refugee camps and shooting policemen,then saying that he must do something.Well it doesn't sound like they want him to succeed.In the last five months the Israelis have assasinated over 60 top Palestinians,yet one fanatical Israeli is shot and they go ballistic.The US has vetoed three demands by the UN for the peace talks to resume,and they must bear some of the responsibilities for this situation.The ppl in the Middle East deserve peace,it should not be put in jeapardy by two right wing governments,who seem hell bent on world domination through the bullet.

[Reuben]

I agree Kamo.

It is beyond belief that Sharon who continually destroys on masse palestinian homes, whose sercurity forces have been responsible for 800 palestinian deaths, 40% of which occured outside of any confrontation, and who held so much responsibility with regard to the massacres at Sabra and Shatila, can presume to have the moral authority to tell Arafat who he shjould arrest.

Yours In Struggle,

Reuben

(Edited by Reuben at 6:40 pm on Dec. 5, 2001)

[Kez]

To the struggle!
can people name active organisations which support the palestinian effort?

comrade kamo

[Reuben]

Certainly.

Youth Action For Palestine

Youth action for Palestine, a youth group formed in the early part the current intifada. We are a British based organizatin of youth (mainly teenagers and students) who are working to support palestinian rights. You can check out our website which I built by going to

www.geocities.com/youthactionforpalestine


You are all very welcome to Join.

You can do this through our Website or by e-mailing [email protected]


We have a number of actions coming up. We are planning to support a picket on the 15th when Bill Clinton comes to raise money for the J.N.F. a fund whi ch builds settlements etc.

Yours,

Reuben

(Edited by Reuben at 9:42 pm on Dec. 5, 2001)

[Moskitto]

Arafat certainly wants peace more than Sharon. When the WTC was attacked loads of Palistinians started celebrating and Arafat told them to stop.
Sharon starting the whole thing anyway (probably to further his political career)

But it really fell apart when Rabbin was assasinated.

[DaNatural]

Derar this comment is directed towards you, i understand that you can be pissed about this, but for a second examine the situation and realize that Hamas are fucking killers they are no better than imperialists or terrorists. suicide bombers kill innocent, now i realize that they cant do much else, but that doesnt mean its right. that is not gaining them anything and is only making things worse. hey if they want to kill people, do what they did with the tourism minister, just kill him directly dont involve people who have nothing to do with. terrorsm is wrong period and i dont care if i lived there, if you use reason to govern your soul u will not turn to terrorism. there is always a better form of action to terrorism always. peace

[Son of Scargill]

DaNatural,I agree with your views in general,but you must understand that Hamas do not just have a military wing.They help provide education,medical and food aid to many Palestinians.This is why they have a strong support in the region.I'm not so sure about Islamic Jihad or Al Fatah.This is why I believe that Ariel Sharon has been undermining Arafats position,he knows that support will shift towards the more extreme Hamas,and then he can use the bullshit excuse of war on terrorism to wipe out all palestinian opposition.This is similar to the plan Rahim Zheevi wanted to adopt.
Btw,Sharon should be in the Hague facing war crimes charges for his involvement in the massacres in Shabra and Shatila.He is as evil as any suicide bomber!!!!

[Reuben]

In the past, Israel has deliberately built up Hamas as a counter wieght to the P.L.O.

For example, in the past, Israel has stopped financial support getting to the P.L.O. and other more moderate palestinian organizations while allowing donations to Hamas to continue.

Victory to The Intifada!

Yours,

Reuben

Remember to check out youth action for palestine at www.geocities.com/youthactionforpalestine

[Derar]

u cant call someone a terrorist when he is defending his own country ....... ppl have different opinions and i respect that ........ but know that hamas and islamic jihad and all the other organizations , r the main part of intifada against the israeli accupation , without them , there will be only kids throwing stones and getting shot everyday !

[Derar]

Wednesday Dec. 5, 2001. More than 100 countries Wednesday demanded Israel "immediately refrain from committing grave breaches" of the Geneva Conventions on warfare like the intentional killing of Palestinians in the occupied territories. Israel and the United States are boycotting the meeting. The U.S. said it stayed away because it believed holding the meeting was "counterproductive."

[Reuben]

Derar,

Terrorism refers not to the objectives for which an organization is fighting, but the means they use to achieve their objectives. The fact that the liberation of palestine is a legitimate and just cause does not stop the use of suicide bombs against civilians from being terrorist.

[Derar]

do u have a better plan ?
what can hamas or the plo do other than that ?

[Derar]

GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli warplanes launched a missile strike in the Gaza Strip on Friday on the Palestinian Authority's main police headquarters, wounding at least 15 officers, witnesses and hospital officials said.

The building is the main police headquarters for Palestinian-ruled areas in the Gaza Strip and West Bank and houses the offices of the Palestinian Authority's police chief.

The air strike followed assaults by warplanes on Palestinian targets in the West Bank and Gaza Strip on Monday and Tuesday that marked Israel's fiercest air campaign in 14 months of conflict.

[Reuben]

Derar,

I agree with you that it is very understandable that Palestinians should carry out attacks of the nature that we have scene, in the context of the national subjugation and racial oppression that they have suffered. However there is a difference between a response being understandable and a response being valid or Justified. Thus while it is hard to blame ordinary Palestinians for use of suicide bombs, the political leadership of organizations such as Hamas must take more responsibility.

Having said that, I see Israeli soldiers to be unquestionablky legitimate targets for attacks, as agents of an oppressive occupation wsho role has been to violently supress palestinians, excsersizing, what is without doubt their legitimate right to resist occpation and persecution.

Where are you from?

A/S/L.

You rs In struggle,

Reuben

[jose lopez]

hey comrades check out the page www.intifada.com
thats all I got to say........palestina resiste.......

[Derar]

i wrote some info about myself in the lounge , u can check it if u r interested .

where r u from reuben ?

[El Commandante]

Quote: from Derar on 2:59 am on Dec. 7, 2001
do u have a better plan ?
what can hamas or the plo do other than that ?


Derar, terrorism isn't the way, violence and terrorism only leads to the deaths of more civillians. The young teenagers that were killed on the plaza did not deserve to die. Neither did the palestinian children that have been indiscriminantly shot by soldiers. All deaths should be grieved for by the same people, the citizens of what should be a united country.

Violence only leads to more violence and therefore more deaths. More does not create peace, neither does war, it just creates losers, the one declared the winner the country that can hold out the longest.

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind!

[Kez]

What if hamas blew the ziononist govt up, INSTEAD of innocent jews, who may well be palestinian sympathisers

comrade kamo

[El Commandante]

You can't presume what they do and don't do. You can't solve a problem by blowing up the government, the people who replace them in government would then just have something to prove and would crack down on everyone. No freedom of the press, no freedom of movement, arrests, executions, people going "missing".

Hamas don't represent the people, they are a fringe group that cause more trouble then they solve. Most people don't support them, like people in Ireland don't support the IRA, or in Afghanistan where they don't support the NA.

[Son of Scargill]

El C,whilst I agree with your whole viewpoint on the ever downward spiral of a cycle of violence(which,incidentally the Israeli government refuses to acknowledge is happening)your points about freedoms,executions and arrests are a little bit late in this case.Since coming into power Sharon has told his people it is their duty to sieze as much land,preferably hilltops,as they can.This is in direct conflict with Mitchell commisions peace plan(that Israel signed)that states that no new settlements were to be built.hundreds of these settlements are still springing up in supposedly Palestinian territories.The military has cut off large segments of the Palestinian population,and many of them are stopped from getting to their places of work.No work,no pay.Many men are arbitrarily arrested at these checkpoints,Mossad have assasinated(read executed)about 60 leading Palestinians in the past 4 months alone.About the only freedom they still have is the press,and seeing that not many people outside of the region get to read it,there's not too much point in having that.Although I myself believe that violence,especially as extreme as it is there,is counter-productive.I cannot say how I would react if I was living under those conditions.

[Derar]

i totally agree with Son of Scargill ...........
also onother thing El commandante , Hamas is 100 % supported by the ppl and funded by the ppl of palestine . instead of each suicide bomber that die , 10 join hamas instead of him .
each time the palestinian authorization arrests some militants from hamas , ppl protest in the streets .....
2 days ago the palestinian ppl surrounded the house of the spiritual leader of hamas and didnt let the palestinian forces arrest him !

[Reuben]

Hamas do not 100 per cent support of the Palestinian people. Their support has grown considerabely but even today it amounts to 20 per cent.

[Markxs]

indeed i think to that killing the goverment of israel will result in a more evil leader. thats because ppl feel attacked and feel the time that something has to be done blah blah. anoter war against the own ppl from the goverment has begone. goverments are only there to protect there ppl from peace. only the ones like che are an exception. the ppl who are humble and leaders at the same time are to count on one hand. the bad leaders are countless! power to the ppl let love and peace rule no leaders who think they might know what the ppl want

health and anarchy
one need only freedom food and shelter

[Maaja]

TavareeshKamo,
I am sorry because I couldn't read what you wrote before, I would answer faster then. But I wanted to say that you made a BIG mistake by saying:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The chechens are not living in a country, just somewhere where they are concentrated and want an independant country for no good reason.

comrade kamo

Well, here's my question: have you ever been to Chechnya, how many chechens do you know personally? What's the real good reason for wanting independence then? How can you say that one country has good reason for being independent and another doesn't have? And is every lifestyle different from yours bad and not correct? Talk to the people, visit the country, and then say how it really is?
Maybe you didn't thought about it but by saying so you seem as a typical happy European who treats everybody from a not so developed country as animals...
But I have to say that the lack of good information if the most horrible thing...

[Maaja]

TavareeshKamo,
I am sorry because I couldn't read what you wrote before, I would answer faster then. But I wanted to say that you made a BIG mistake by saying:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The chechens are not living in a country, just somewhere where they are concentrated and want an independant country for no good reason.

comrade kamo

Well, here's my question: have you ever been to Chechnya, how many chechens do you know personally? What's the real good reason for wanting independence then? How can you say that one country has good reason for being independent and another doesn't have? And is every lifestyle different from yours bad and not correct? Talk to the people, visit the country, and then say how it really is?
Maybe you didn't thought about it but by saying so you seem as a typical happy European who treats everybody from a not so developed country as animals...
But I have to say that the lack of good information if the most horrible thing...

[revolutionary spirit]

well around my area loads of zionists are heading into school to spread their word,but my brother who is a vetran in the SWP told me he can get a palestinian speaker and i am going to try and get it in with my Roman Catholic school.I'll try my best.

[Guest1]

As the son of a Palestinian, this is a subject that I've learned much about. The problem hear is two fold: 1. The oppression from the powerful Zionist elite and 2. The lost and disorganized Palestinian resistance.

1. Zionists are considered by most people to be a part of the western world, a beacon of hope in an uncivilized land. Anything done by them is hidden by the media because of how close their treatment of the people of Palestine is to the European treatment of the Peoples of the New World. Funding comes from all over the globe. Capitalists everywhere pay the Government officials, lobbying for them to send more money to Israel.

2. The Palestinian resistance is lost. They're fighting for the wrong dream. This is a fight against Apartheid, treat it as such. Ask not for the Bantustans, little pockets of power, but for equality. As an Arab, I know that we multiply like rabbits. If all the Palestinians were given citizenship and voting rights (they already pay taxes), within a few years Israel would have no choice but to treat Palestinians fairly. They would have to give the right of return, dismantle settlements and everything, the vote would be 50-50 Arabs-Jews. At least 25% of the Jewish population would support equality, so that's the majority of the country right there. But not with this mess with killing by race. That's the biggest mistake. It's alienating many Arabs, most Jews and the majority of the world. Especially nhow, after Sept. 11. Lead it like a revolution. Concentrated gasoline (gelatine like) for the molotov cocktails thrown at tanks can destroy the tank. Target Soldiers, Ariel Sharon, Political figures, Generals, Army bases, Power plants, etc... That's it. There is a need for:

a) inclusion of other revolutionary forces
B) inclusion of other religions and cultures (Christian Palestinians and Jewish Israelis who are either Socialist or just generally unhappy with the government)
c) being rid of Arafat, he is only a pet for Israel
d) the mention of "Dismantling Apartheid" as the mission of the uprising in all dealings with the outside world, call it what it is!

Once people stop viewing it as a religious conflict, Martyrs will be respected, but not as common. Success would be inevitable.

Down with Apartheid!

[Derar]

Maybe u have a point there about few stuff ...... but i dont agree with most of what u said !
if palestinians gave up the fighting and suicide bombing ...... then there is no revolution , no one would even have heard of palestine ....... and if there wasnt resistance ....... then palestine would be an israeli country , with only israelis living in it !!!
and believe me if the palestinian resistance could attack israeli soldeirs and politicians , they would ..... but its not easy as u think , u can say that its ALMOST impossible !
and how can u say that yasser arafat should be removed !!??
i agree that he is a puppet for israel , but there 2 things u should consider :
1. arafat has been a palestinian leader for 30 years , in such situations , its very hard for palestinians to trust someone new .

2.if arafat was replaced , then we have 2 options , either a new leader thats more strict about the situation , and would drive israel and the US crazy which might lead to more critisism to palestine and will shed more blood , or an israeli agent ......... which would fuck the palestinian ppl more than israel ever did !

all the palestinian martyrs r ultimately respected , atleast in the middle east and muslim countries . they dont give a damn if israelis or americans dont !

[Derar]

Some sick israeli-jewish acts are now infront of the public eyes !

LOS ANGELES (AP) - The chairman and another member of the militant Jewish Defense League have been arrested on suspicion of plotting to blow up a Los Angeles mosque and the office of an Arab-American congressman, federal authorities said Wednesday.

JDL chairman Irv Rubin, 56, and Earl Krugel, 59, were arrested Tuesday night after the last component of the bomb - explosive powder - was delivered to Krugel's home, U.S. Attorney John Gordon said. Other bomb components and weapons were seized at the home.

Authorities said the two planned to bomb the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City and the office of freshman Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif.

[ArgueEverything]

Quote: from Derar on 1:02 am on Dec. 13, 2001
Some sick israeli-jewish acts are now infront of the public eyes !

LOS ANGELES (AP) - The chairman and another member of the militant Jewish Defense League have been arrested on suspicion of plotting to blow up a Los Angeles mosque and the office of an Arab-American congressman, federal authorities said Wednesday.

JDL chairman Irv Rubin, 56, and Earl Krugel, 59, were arrested Tuesday night after the last component of the bomb - explosive powder - was delivered to Krugel's home, U.S. Attorney John Gordon said. Other bomb components and weapons were seized at the home.

Authorities said the two planned to bomb the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City and the office of freshman Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif.

i would point out that the JDL is a bunch of nutters who dont enjoy much support at all from the american jewish populace. they have a degree of backing from jewish settlers in the west bank, but thats about it.

they are the jewish equivalent of al qaeda. just as it is wrong to blame all arabs for the actions of al qaeda, it is wrong to implicate all jews for what the morons at the JDL decide to blow up.

[Derar]

The United States vetoed a Security Council resolution early Saturday condemning ``acts of terror'' against Israelis and Palestinians and demanding an end to nearly 15 months of Mideast violence.

U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte said the Palestinian-backed resolution was aimed at isolating Israel politically and failed to mention the recent suicide bombings and attacks against the Jewish state.
The resolution was supported by 12 of the 15 council members.

It was the second U.S. veto this year on a Palestinian resolution seeking protection for Palestinian civilians through a monitoring mechanism, which Israel strongly opposes. The United States, Israel's closest ally, also blocked action on two similar resolutions.

Arab nations requested the council meeting after Israel cut contacts with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and launched new military strikes against Palestinian Authority targets. This followed new suicide attacks against Israelis, which Jerusalem blames on the Palestinian failure to crack down on militants.

Despite the threat of a U.S. veto, the Palestinians demanded a vote on the resolution.

``We are the little guys,'' said the Palestinian U.N. observer, Nasser Al-Kidwa. ``We are the people under occupation, and it is our right and a duty to come to the body responsible for international peace and security, to the United Nations , to the Security Council, and try to help the situation.''

And america wonders why there is so much hate against it in the arab world !!

[Freiheit]

you must be very narrow-minded and ultra fanatic to agree with suicid bombing. suicid bombing against helpless ppl like kids and women is absolutely bad.

if almost whole palestine supports this masacres, you cant wonder that almost the whole world supports israel.

[Derar]

Are u trying to justify the killing of innocent palestinians everyday !??!!

u r one sick narrow minded person ..........

i bet u r israeli !!

[Freiheit]

i am neither israeli nor jew.

i hate ppl who kill kids. who make bombs and blow up school buses etc. and ppl who support are:

1) stupid, narrow minded and bad

2) fanatic religous who do not know how to use their brain.

3) total racists comparable with the nazis.

[Gestra]

The Discover channel in the UK had a nice programme about the conflict, called promises ( http://www.promisesproject.org/ ) from the view point of children. Nice to see the views of the actual people.

Oh and when the guy doind the docu was in one of the palestine areas they passed an Image of Che painted on a wall.

[Freiheit]

the palestinian suicid-bombers have nothing in common with che. che would never have killed kids.

it is not right to prostitute a revolution hero like che to legitmize suicid boming. but the palestinian have no scruple.

[Gestra]

Resistance exists in many forms. Throughout the world Che is seen as a symbol of people being able to to be free. His image is often used.

Off by hand i can think of a hijacking that was done by black september in the 70s i think. ( palestine group). Out of 4 hi jackers one survived, She was brought off the plane and was wearing a Che shirt.

Suicide bombers need no legitimising they simple are products of there environment. They fight by what they see as the only means at there disposal. The only form they have for resistance. Che is a symbol of Resistance is he not. As such seeing his image used for resistance rather than on a shirt for profit. IS a very good thing I think.

And not all palestines are suicide bombers. So saying palestinians have no scruples is not good.

[Freiheit]

do you support suicid bombing of everything, like schoolbuses, or what?!

[Freiheit]

everyone needs a legitimazition of what he/she does.
thats the difference between humans and animals. most humans have a reason why they do something, at least about the more important stuff.
the suicid bombers wanna be independent. thats fine. i agree and support this idea. but the way the chose is absolutely unfair, stupid and contraproductive.
do you likes ppl who blow your buildings and kill inocent ppl? if someone does that you wanna kill him/her as well. and that happens in israel/palistine. there are two absolutely narrow minded, stupid, idiotic ... parties which try to kill destroy and hurt each other.
one side blows up school buses and the other sides kill the other's police. it is just absolutely stupid.

in my eyes the palestinians are the more stupid party. because the palestinians need help from outside to win, not israel. israel has an army etc. tunks airplanes and weapons, palestine not. if you need help, it is not very intelligent to blow up buildings and kill as many ppl as possible, including kids and women. all this actions of the palestinians make them hated by the whole western world, the most powerfull part of the world. what can some arabic nations do against the states? look at afghanistan.
the palestinians should try it on pacifistic way, because in the moment the whole western world hates them, and they will never allow to found an independent 'country of suicid-bombers (terrorists)' how they will call it. if they wanna be independent try it on a fair way, dont kill kids.
if they have guerillias who fight the army, fine. but suicid bombing is crap.

[Derar]

cant u see how many times u repeated ( i hate ppl the kill kids , i hate ppl that kill children , they destroy school buses , they kill children ) and that showed how ur case is weak ........ " i never heard of a school that was blown or a school bus " what in the hell r u talking about !
dude , i dont know what's wrong with u . r u blind ? paralized ? or dumb ?
the whole world is with the palestinians , the whole world except 2 countries , USA and israel , or why else would the usa use its vetoe .......
and who kills children ? most of the suicide bombings were in fucken illegal settlements , settlers that torture palestinian kids everyday , yesterday something around 30 settlers attacked a small village ( while they were protected by the israeli army ) and kicked ppl out of there houses , destroyed whatever they had their eyes on , and stole everything they saw .....
u might also check the statistics ...... and see how many kids were killed by israeli soldiers ....... today was a funeral of a 12 year old boy that was shot dead yesterday !!!

and the pic. of the guy u have it on .... zack as i think , he supports the palestinian case 100 % !!!!!

[Derar]

freiheit said that the whole world is against palestinians !!!!

This is from the independent news :

Britain joined more than 100 countries in demanding that Israel refrain immediately from committing "grave breaches" of the Geneva Conventions, such as the deliberate killing of Palestinians in the occupied territories.

In Geneva, the one-day meeting of signatory states to the Fourth Geneva Convention reaffirmed that the international pact on protecting civilians under military occupation applied to territory seized by Israel in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Switzerland refused Israel's appeal to suspend the session because of last weekend's suicide bombings.

[Guest]

Dear Freiheit ,
It is an act of desperation . The lose of innocent life is a sad one but you must understand that their tactics are all they see as viable . The Isrealis have tanks and gunships , the Palestianians have rocks , small arms and some materials for bombs . They are well out gunned . And when you are out gunned surounded by tanks and heavily armed check points everywhere well then you do whatever you can . If you can go to Palestine , live in a blocked off settlement bringing only what your wearing, becoming a citizen meaning your checked constantly by Isreali military guards , and figure out a strategy to attack political and military targets without civilian casualties then by all means you should try and then you may say what you wish . Im not for the murder of innocence but you must look at this through a military point of veiw not a moral one .
The Shadow Of A Bleeding Rose

[ARKANS TIGER]

As long as Israel keeps attacking Palestine I'll be happy. The muslims gained Kosovo and Bosnia..so its about time they lose Palestine..fuck this expansion bullshit..i wish i could have voted for Sharon.

[libereco]

Quote: from ARKANS TIGER on 12:38 am on Dec. 19, 2001
As long as Israel keeps attacking Palestine I'll be happy. The muslims gained Kosovo and Bosnia..so its about time they lose Palestine..fuck this expansion bullshit..i wish i could have voted for Sharon.

it seems your hate is misdirected....

if i would hate each religious group (or even ethnik group) for the acts some of them commited, even somewhere else on this world or at a different time, then there would be nobody i wouldn't hate.

do i hate all christians (or people of christian worldview) because of the acts of a few of them?

[Freiheit]

Derar,
you are a fanatic religious ignorant who is blinded by some islamic priests, who preach that muslims are better than others, and you have a lack of information.
in my eyes you are a racist.

i will ignore your futher comments in this discussion.

[Freiheit]

there is, more or less, no argument against a independent palestinian state. but there is no argument to support the suicid bombers.

the whole world without some fanatics hates the suicid bombers.

[Guest]

Quote: from Derar on 5:46 pm on Dec. 18, 2001
...the whole world is with the palestinians...If the world supports the killing of children and innocents, then the world can fuck off. I never cared much for the world anyway.

[Freiheit]

Quote: from Guest on 4:04 pm on Dec. 18, 2001
Dear Freiheit ,
It is an act of desperation . The lose of innocent life is a sad one but you must understand that their tactics are all they see as viable . The Isrealis have tanks and gunships , the Palestianians have rocks , small arms and some materials for bombs . They are well out gunned . And when you are out gunned surounded by tanks and heavily armed check points everywhere well then you do whatever you can . If you can go to Palestine , live in a blocked off settlement bringing only what your wearing, becoming a citizen meaning your checked constantly by Isreali military guards , and figure out a strategy to attack political and military targets without civilian casualties then by all means you should try and then you may say what you wish . Im not for the murder of innocence but you must look at this through a military point of veiw not a moral one .
The Shadow Of A Bleeding Rose


you cannot legitimize absolute brutalety and cruelty by military success in a war that does not have to be foughten like that.
just keep stalin in mind!
this revenge crap must finally stop!

it is pretty sad to pay with life of innocents for a very, very samll success. and actually, israeli has gards everywhere and all this protection stuff, only because of the suicid bombers.

it is the wrong way they go. and it is not intelligent. it an religious war and both religions talk a about sharing and human dignity as well as they forbid killing and violating. why don’t they just share the land.

[Freiheit]

Quote: from ARKANS TIGER on 5:38 pm on Dec. 18, 2001
As long as Israel keeps attacking Palestine I'll be happy. The muslims gained Kosovo and Bosnia..so its about time they lose Palestine..fuck this expansion bullshit..i wish i could have voted for Sharon.


you cannot say muslim = muslim

[Derar]

Quote: from Freiheit on 1:24 am on Dec. 19, 2001
Derar,
you are a fanatic religious ignorant who is blinded by some islamic priests, who preach that muslims are better than others, and you have a lack of information.
in my eyes you are a racist.

i will ignore your futher comments in this discussion.




Did i mention anything about islam ?!
1. u r changing the topic
2. u r making it a religion war ...... not a war for freedom .... though ofcourse u dont know that there r thousands of christian palestinians fighting along side with other muslim palestinians .
3. seems to me like u r the racist here ...... and u r blind , so i guess anyone can be a racist in ur eyes !!! haha .

i pity the fools like u .

[Derar]

and friheit is talking about sharing the land .........

seems like u dont read much ..... just blab anything from ur head ......

why dont u check again the sharm al-shaikh agreement , or all the other agreements ...........
palestinians are ok with sharing the land , as long as they have freedom of movement and security ....... but the israelis are the ones who want the whole land .
thats the difference between them .

[Guest]

My dear sir ,
You still have your head facing the wall and are only able to see what is in front of you . All of the rest is but guesses and opinions of morality where you try to make all situations fit into a cookie cutter shape . You avoided everything I said only going for the military part of my post . I do not justify anything , I am just trying to allow you to percieve through the eyes of a palestinian . If I am to justify anything then I shall say it . It is sadenning to me that some people wish to pick and choose based on religion or ethnicity . I wish people would look based such menial things and look upon those who suffer under oppressive and powerful regimes . All those who do not have a voice and that suffer needlessly should be what is supported and not simply your own personal gripes in your own countries or ethnicities . The fact is innocent life shall continue to die as long as those who wish to use , occupy , rape and pillage exist . Now what I do not understand is if you feel so strongly about the death of isreali innocents , that you do not at the same time denouce the tanks firing upon little palestinian children armed with only rocks and slings . Whos death are justifyed not through a call for of revenge but by some passeges from the Torah , that the Zionist (neo-nazis) spout off that they are the true owners of all Isreal and all arabs should leave their holy places . Sound like something the Nazis used to talk about except that they were the true race . Basically this is a another Holocaust the Palestinians are in their "settlements" *internmet camps* , they are systematically being killed as they are provoked into deperate attacks allowing the Ireali army to push further in . And its all in the name for a pure Isreal . Let me ask you this if you seen that the jews in there ghettos were doing suicide bombing runs against any Germans they could would you not cry for those same innocent german children or would you be as blinded by racist hatred as you are now and spout off that the only good german is a dead german . I tell you this if the Zionists had there way the Arabs would have either been put into gas chambers and killed or driven into the neighboring arab state and all straglers would be killed on site . You will probably say that I can not draw a parrallel to the atrocities done to the jews by the Nazis and the atrocities done to the Palestinians by the Zionists , but you must judge this by the standard you made apparent a innocent life is a innocent life whether its millions or thousands its still horrible . To be frank I feel the wrong people are fighting I think the true jews and the palestianians should rise up against the Zionists who are playing with them as marrionettes .
I always listen to both sides and then I draw a conclusion of whom I support . I support the oppressed people of Palestine and I want peace for them not in the destruction of the Ireali state but in the tolerance that Islam and Judiaism teaches .
The Shadow Of A Bleeding Rose

[Derar]

Well spoken ........

Guest , thats an excellent speech.

i guess u put a very good ending to this topic .

[Freiheit]

guest, you mustnt act with feeling (i mean feel like a palestinian; of course you mustnt feel like a israeli as well). you always must look obvious and free of manipulation.
you have to find the right solution, not the best for you. so you must stay objective and demand objectivness of the others. think with your brain, not with your guts.

[Freiheit]

i just read an article about palestine.

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ta/taOnlineArt...el?ArtId=150235 (http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ta/taOnlineArtikel?ArtId=150235)

obviously, the palestinians put 15 palestinian security men in jail, because of their coorperation with the hamas. then israel put their soldiers out of this regions.
they said, that if the palestinians work against the terror, there are the israeli soldiers not needed.

[Michael]

The Palestinian people have suffered a lot under the Israelis,who took over their land.
Sharon is a murderer after he was the leader of the Israeli army (minister of defense) and he let the legionnaire christians of the Lebanon to get into Sabira and Satila, killing 2000 immigrants,women and children.,in 1982.
One other thing is that Palestinians are fighting with rocks.They have no guns.Just rocks and their bodies.
They want to get back their land and they'll do everything it takes to achieve that goal..
Don't criticize it,when you haven't felt it.

[Derar]

sorry for bringing up this topic again , but today i came across a site that i would like to share it with u all and for a person that got mixed up about who is killing children !

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/357/oped...violence+.shtml (http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/357/oped/Palestinian_children_bear_brunt_of_violence+.shtml )

[Reuben]

Israel, yesterday showed more than ever it's unmerited arragonce.

Sharon, whose armies have buldozed the houses of palestinians (see www.palestinercs.com) and has killed over 800 Palestinians, 30 % of whom were children, presumed to have the moral authority to decide whether Arafat could attend a midnight mass in Bethlehem.

When cannot believe that Israel's policy of towards the Palestinians simply relates to a fear of terrorism. When the Nacbah occurred in 1948 and the Israeli state was formed, 700,00 palestinians left under duress. Some were physically expelled or terrorised and others left because their land was stolen and they had nothing. The aspirations of Israel as a colonial entity has been since then to keep this status quo and even further the expulsion of Palestinians. While, as a jew, I could enter Israel at any time and stay, no government has recognized the legitimate right of return for palestinians.

Unlike many occupied nations, the PLO demand only a proportion of their nation and the right to return for refugees.

I do not support Terrorism. However the Israeli policy amounts to a brutal repression and collective punishment of the palestinian people for excersizing what is their legitimate right to resist occupation, persecution and discrimination.


Victory to the intifada,

Reuben.

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