Questions about anti-fascism

[DancingEmma]

Anti-fascism is something I'm interested in but don't know much about. I've been doing some reading on the Anti-Fascism section of RevLeft trying to familiarize myself more with it. There are aspects of it I don't quite get and was wondering if someone could help explain to me, or at least point me in the direction of good resources I can read.

First off, I'm 100% opposed to fascism and think all fascism is oppressive bullshit. I am, however, also opposed to a great many other things. I'm opposed to capitalism and the state, for instance. So the "no tolerance" for fascism stance of anti-fascists doesn't fully make sense to me. As far as I know, most anti-fascists don't try and deny a platform to any pro-capitalist person. So why is fascism regarded as the worst danger in a way that this stance must be taken toward it but not toward other toxic ideologies?

To me, anyway, it seems that more mainstream ideologies actually have a more oppressive impact in our present day conditions than fascism does, as fascism has been widely discredited. It's a truism that most racism in the U.S., for example, is not caused by the KKK and the Aryan Nations. Rather, most racism is caused by "respectable" mainstream white people who, say, happen to oppose affirmative action or support the War on Drugs. So I worry that singling fascism out just feeds into the mainstream perspective that racism is caused by a few bigoted "extremists" rather than being something that is woven into the very fabric of our society.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on this. Please go easy on me, lol! I'm aware a lot of what I'm saying probably sounds awfully naive. I'm coming from a place of ignorance and am more than happy for you to tell me where I'm wrong. I just want to learn more about anti-fascism, and figure that to do so I should be honest about my initial skepticism about certain aspects of it.

[Blake's Baby]

No, I think that's a fair enough criticism to level at 'anti-fascism' as a set of ideas. It speaks to the same lesser-evilism that alibis Barak Obama - because he's not Bush, am I right? - or Chinese imperialism as against American imperialism.

Uniting with our oppressors against our would-be oppressors seems a strange logic to me. It is the united working class that will beat fascism, not alliances with the bourgeois state that would use the fascists like a shot should they need to.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

This dichotomy has a historical reason, that fascism is rooted specifically in the disruption and destruction of left-wing movements, and a more practical reason, that capitalism won ideological hegemony of the globe and is harder to shut out completely. I think the latter has more explanatory power, capitalism certainly comes close to meeting the first criterion.

[Sasha]

Most radical anti-fascists have a pretty wide working definition of fascism, in my own group we spend as much time if not more combating things as state-racism against refugee's, modern populist anti-muslim parties/organisations and Christian fundamentalist anti-women/anti-gay groups as we do fighting classical fascist/Nazi groups.
It's also not an ideology or something, we are all different individuals ranging from anarchists to socialists to radical liberals.
We do believe though that "fascist" organisations that try to mobilize and controll the workingclass/win power by conquering the streets rather than parliament are a specific threat that can be defeated by specific tactics by a specific form of organisation.
You should see anti-fascism as an reactive tactic not an political organization let alone an ideology.
yes i guess its a form of popular/united front'ism but unlike our (often left-communist) detractors would like you believe we are very much aware of the dangers and limits and we all, individually or in other groups we almost all work also to defeat capitalism in line with our own tendency's.

[La Guaneña]

Anti-fascism is something I'm interested in but don't know much about. I've been doing some reading on the Anti-Fascism section of RevLeft trying to familiarize myself more with it. There are aspects of it I don't quite get and was wondering if someone could help explain to me, or at least point me in the direction of good resources I can read.

First off, I'm 100% opposed to fascism and think all fascism is oppressive bullshit. I am, however, also opposed to a great many other things. I'm opposed to capitalism and the state, for instance. So the "no tolerance" for fascism stance of anti-fascists doesn't fully make sense to me. As far as I know, most anti-fascists don't try and deny a platform to any pro-capitalist person. So why is fascism regarded as the worst danger in a way that this stance must be taken toward it but not toward other toxic ideologies?

To me, anyway, it seems that more mainstream ideologies actually have a more oppressive impact in our present day conditions than fascism does, as fascism has been widely discredited. It's a truism that most racism in the U.S., for example, is not caused by the KKK and the Aryan Nations. Rather, most racism is caused by "respectable" mainstream white people who, say, happen to oppose affirmative action or support the War on Drugs. So I worry that singling fascism out just feeds into the mainstream perspective that racism is caused by a few bigoted "extremists" rather than being something that is woven into the very fabric of our society.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on this. Please go easy on me, lol! I'm aware a lot of what I'm saying probably sounds awfully naive. I'm coming from a place of ignorance and am more than happy for you to tell me where I'm wrong. I just want to learn more about anti-fascism, and figure that to do so I should be honest about my initial skepticism about certain aspects of it.

I think that most Anti-Fascist groups widen up the span of things considered fascism. Most anti-fascist groups to me, seem like "anti militant racism/sexism/xenophobia groups". As I see it, it's just a more militant and active stance against the more militant and active parts of capitalism.

This way, anti-fascist groups in Greece are more active against actual fascists, for example the KKE, while some anti-fascists here in Brazil take an active stance against internal xenophobia that is very active against northern immigrants in São Paulo or other places down south.

Actual Fascism is dead and buried in most places, but millitant racists and homophobes are everywhere. I guess it's just a matter of seeing the need for actual response, and in some cases, self-defence.

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

Not trying to derail the thread.

I would not go as far as to say that fascism is dead and buried. It was long asleep, but after the first signal of crisis, GD gains space with police support, etc. To use a Brazilian example, I point Bolsonaro; who even though may not be our own Mussolini, has a rather fascist rhetoric against homosexuals, black people and communists (in fact, the left as a whole). And still, this imbecile gets audience (remember those 20-30 boneheads is MASP?).

[DancingEmma]

Thanks for all your responses guys! This has all been very helpful for me and given me a lot of think about.

[La Guaneña]

Not trying to derail the thread.

I would not go as far as to say that fascism is dead and buried. It was long asleep, but after the first signal of crisis, GD gains space with police support, etc. To use a Brazilian example, I point Bolsonaro; who even though may not be our own Mussolini, has a rather fascist rhetoric against homosexuals, black people and communists (in fact, the left as a whole). And still, this imbecile gets audience (remember those 20-30 boneheads is MASP?).

I agree with you on the GD part, and take back the dead and buried. Maybe in a coma would be a better word.

Now I don't consider Bolsonaro to be anywhere near Fascism. Of course he is a backwards conservative nationalist asshole, but Fascism is something specific. The brazilian fascists (all 20 of them) might love him for his rhetoric, as they uphold the 64 coup, but they consider it to be a form of lesser-evil, as far as i know.

[blake 3:17]

My first political activism was doing anti-fascist/Nazi/Klan work. It was at a time when neo-Nazis were actively recruiting, providing security for a then new populist right wing party, and were carrying out physical attacks (that includes murder!) against immigrants, refugees, queers, and leftists.

I do not support a 'no platform' position on the part of the state or quasi-state institutions -- it is an extremely crude instrument that can shut down legitimate debate, be used against leftists and other dissidents, and gives the scum an aura of radical chic and rebelliousness.

I don't have any principled opposition to confrontational tactics against the far Right, but it should be reasoned and strategic.

Having said that, our major victory, and a long term victory against the Nazis, was won by totally ultra-left and adventurist tactics, which provoked a very violent street fight, which led to the imprisonment of many of the leading Nazis. All of the anti-fascists arrested were let go with pretty mild probation conditions -- most of the judges were World War 2 veterans and didn't see anything wrong with pounding on some Nazi creeps.

[The Idler]

Yep fascism is being singled out for selective censorship. Everything undertaken in the regimes called Nazi, or fascist, finds its parallel in the capitalism of other areas. Those shouting for the united working class to censor fascists always seem to want to be the ones to define who is and isn't fascist.
http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2000s/2009/no-1261-september-2009/nazism-%E2%80%93-ultimate-evil

Think of it as a kind of urgent moral panic to override rational thought and discussion. But whereas moral panic is usually for the right, this is for the left to train young enthusiastic cadre in shouting and marching.

Speaking out against Fox News or the Republican party would be much more grounded in reality but chasing boneheads with swastikas is less effort for aspiring historical reenactors.

Worst-case scenario, so-called "anti-fascist" organisations like Searchlight are used as secret state fronts for entrapping and exposing revolutionaries. My advice is steer well clear.

[Thirsty Crow]

First off, I'm 100% opposed to fascism and think all fascism is oppressive bullshit. I am, however, also opposed to a great many other things. I'm opposed to capitalism and the state, for instance. So the "no tolerance" for fascism stance of anti-fascists doesn't fully make sense to me. As far as I know, most anti-fascists don't try and deny a platform to any pro-capitalist person. So why is fascism regarded as the worst danger in a way that this stance must be taken toward it but not toward other toxic ideologies?

As psycho said, the rationale behind anti-fascism is that such groups tend to take politics onto the street, if you catch my drift. As such, they are a potential threat, no doubt.

But you are quite right that anti-fascism is a cross class phenomenon and should be judged on a class basis. And that is even not to mention the historical record of anti-fascism in preserving the power of the ruling class.


yes i guess its a form of popular/united front'ism but unlike our (often left-communist) detractors would like you believe we are very much aware of the dangers and limits and we all, individually or in other groups we almost all work also to defeat capitalism in line with our own tendency's. What do you mean by "detractors"? Can you explain what is wrong with a criticism of anti-fascism coming from the left?

[Sasha]

Nothing, but most left-coms that come into this forum to do their "anti-fascism is evil" routine don't actually critize current radical antifascist theory and/or praxis but a strawman based on a caricature of what some idiots proposed in the 1930's. Critisisms that might hold still some valued water when used to attack organizations like the SWP/TUC/searchlight's hope not hate but have nothing to do with what 99% of the ppl in the antifa subforum understand anti-fascism to be.

[The Idler]

What do 99% of people in the antifa subforum understand it to be? AFA or Red Action? Leaving aside whether these constitute 99% of antifascists. Squaddism, street demos and censorship are all reenacting what both "sides" in the 1920s and 30s Germany did. If anything UAF/Searchlight/TUC are more modern in these respects if not at least as ineffectual at fighting fascism.

[Narodnik]

Fascism is imperialist nationalism and/or racism, any other use of the word is just an insult.

As Orwel wrote in '44:

"It would seem that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox hunting, bullfighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

Fighing against dicrimination, for equality, justice etc. of course we all support that, but personally I don't like the sensationalist throwing of "fascist" lagel around when there's no racism or extreme nationalism.

[Lokomotive293]

Anti-fascism is something I'm interested in but don't know much about. I've been doing some reading on the Anti-Fascism section of RevLeft trying to familiarize myself more with it. There are aspects of it I don't quite get and was wondering if someone could help explain to me, or at least point me in the direction of good resources I can read.

First off, I'm 100% opposed to fascism and think all fascism is oppressive bullshit. I am, however, also opposed to a great many other things. I'm opposed to capitalism and the state, for instance. So the "no tolerance" for fascism stance of anti-fascists doesn't fully make sense to me. As far as I know, most anti-fascists don't try and deny a platform to any pro-capitalist person. So why is fascism regarded as the worst danger in a way that this stance must be taken toward it but not toward other toxic ideologies?

To me, anyway, it seems that more mainstream ideologies actually have a more oppressive impact in our present day conditions than fascism does, as fascism has been widely discredited. It's a truism that most racism in the U.S., for example, is not caused by the KKK and the Aryan Nations. Rather, most racism is caused by "respectable" mainstream white people who, say, happen to oppose affirmative action or support the War on Drugs. So I worry that singling fascism out just feeds into the mainstream perspective that racism is caused by a few bigoted "extremists" rather than being something that is woven into the very fabric of our society.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on this. Please go easy on me, lol! I'm aware a lot of what I'm saying probably sounds awfully naive. I'm coming from a place of ignorance and am more than happy for you to tell me where I'm wrong. I just want to learn more about anti-fascism, and figure that to do so I should be honest about my initial skepticism about certain aspects of it.

I think the problem is that many people in the anti-fascist movement as well as the critics of it are lacking a clear analysis of fascism.
The easiest thing would be to point you to Dimitroff and Reinhard Opitz, but I'll try to explain a little.

According to Dimitroff, fascism is the "open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital". Finance capital in the Leninist definition.
Fascism is, in a way, the last resort of capitalism. It's the ultimate reaction to a crisis when all other attempts to solve it have failed.
Fascism means the replacement of bourgeois democracy with open terror, it always goes hand in hand with the complete repression of the workers' movement, with the immediate preparation for aggressive war, nationalism and militarism.
In fascist ideology, no matter of what form, "the people" obscures the division of society into classes, and the concept goes hand in hand with the exclusion of the parts of society that are "different", or not "useful" for capitalist reproduction. The idea of democracy is replaced with a strict hierarchy and unconditional obedience.
An important strategy of fascism is that it often imitates left-wing rhetoric. After all, it needs to try to create a mass base. We call that social demagogy.

With all this, it becomes clear, why fascism has to be opposed at all costs, and, as fascism is only in the interest of a tiny, though influential, part of monopoly capital, with the broadest popular movement you can get. That doesn't mean, of course, forgetting that anti-fascism always has to be anti-capitalism, as capitalism is the root of fascism.

Now, of course, nowadays, I wouldn't say, fascism is going to take over tomorrow, or in a few years. Nevertheless, even when it is not in the power, the fascist movement serves monopoly capital in different ways.

1) Fascists direct revolutionary potential into forms that are harmless to capitalism (e.g. saying it's the Jews' fault, or the illegal immigrants', or, especially in a European context, "American Imperialism", which is usually equated with "the Jews").

2) Fascists accustom the population to reactionary demands, after a while, they can be realized by the bourgeois parties, usually while saying it's a "demand of the people". Classical examples are stricter immigration laws, but also stuff like forced labor for the unemployed.

3) Often, bourgeois parties take over fascist demands (examples see above), while saying that, otherwise, they would lose votes, or that they are just preventing the fascist party from getting more votes.

4) Fascists actively terrorize left-wing, progressive and democratic groups and individuals. In that function, they aid the bourgeois repression organs, who can keep their hands clean.

Those are only examples, the list is, of course, incomplete.

So, IMO, anti-fascism doesn't mean beating up Nazis, it means showing people that 1) fascism is not in their interest, and that 2) fascism is in the interest of capital. Organizing and participating in peaceful blockades can be an effective and easy way to get people involved with politics.

[Sasha]

And sometimes you just have to beat up some Nazis...

[The Idler]

And sometimes you just have to beat up some Nazis...
Grow up

[Sasha]

You should ask two of the Nazi's I once had a "non verbal political discussion" with, really you can, I have them on Facebook now...

[TheEmancipator]

Fascists are our anti-thesis. They are exactly what we strive to oppose. Fascism itself was born out of anti-Communist hatred in Italy.

Of course fascism has now adopted a broader term, but it remains a sworn enemy. Just like Communism, while its word was only born a few hundred years ago, it has always existed in a sense.

Lets see on a political level...

Nationalism (racism) vs Internationalism

Elitism vs Egalitarianism

Collectivism vs Corporatism

Progressivism vs Conservatism

Yeah, we're bound to get on well, aren't we?

On a philosophical note, fascism descends from a Hegelian ideology (like Marxism and Left Anarchism) that believes that ultimately historical "progress" will be measured by the supremacy of a State over others. While Marxists believe in materialist class warfare as the struggle, the roots of fascism promotes the struggle between nations (with a total disregard for humanity, nation before mankind) so that ultimately one will emerge as victorious. (there's some final struggle bullshit that fascists believe in too, but I won't get into that because people tend to make fun of me for believing in the Absolute :grin:)


The reason we take a more tolerant stance towards liberals (libertarians included) and certain "capitalists" is because ultimately I am strongly convinced they strive for the same thing we do and are progressives. Let us not forget that it was the bourgeoisie who were yesterday's revolutionaries.

Fascist/Nationalists care only for themselves and their disgusting ideology. The real, true ones are nasty pieces of work, let me assure you of that. That said, a lot of their followers are just corrupted by populist drivel they spout out.