Question for Star Trek fans

[Devrim]

I have noticed recently that quite a few people on here have said they are Star Trek fans. I wouldn't call myself a massive fan, but I quite like it. Anyway, I have a question; What is the economic system of the Star Trek world. I have have seen episodes where there have been references to humans not using money. Indeed from the way it is portrayed it would be possible to imagine human society as 'communist'. However, other species clearly do use money. I am sure that Quark isn't handing out the drinks for free. If this is this case that would mean that human society is effectively 'socialism on one (or actually numerous) planet'.

So what sort of society is the Federation, full communism, or a benign sort of Stalinism?

Devrim

[bcbm]

this guy is anti communist but basically argues the benign stalinism case (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html)pretty well

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The Ferengi still have a money based economy and are generally looked down on by the federation as a result. I'm not really very knowledgeable about star trek but I believe the federation still engages in some form of exploitation of their citizens living on colonies. Their replicators still require energy that comes from a crystal which can not be replicated and must instead be mined. Its mined from outlying colonies and asteroids and shipped back to the core planets to be distributed in some form over the entire territory. Though obviously those races with more power within the bureaucracy and star fleet get the better cut based on how much attention their worlds get vs. the minor species. The people doing the mining also live in poorer conditions than those on the core worlds who seem to do nothing other than engage in art and study or adventure around in star ships.

[Astarte]

Since there is a replicator I would assume a super-abundance in production of all material needs and wants of life has been achieved - hence probably also why there is no money - i always assumed Earth was communist in Star Trek

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The Ferengi still have a money based economy and are generally looked down on by the federation as a result. I'm not really very knowledgeable about star trek but I believe the federation still engages in some form of exploitation of their citizens living on colonies.

My impression is that while "core worlds" like Earth and Vulcan no longer use currency, it is still in use in the outer colonies.


Their replicators still require energy that comes from a crystal which can not be replicated and must instead be mined.

You're correct that dilithium (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Dilithium) crystals cannot be replicated (otherwise there would be no plots based around obtaining them), but as far as I understand replicators (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Replicator) themselves only need energy to run and feedstock materials to function. The dilithium crystals are an essential component for warp drives which makes them a critically important resource.


Its mined from outlying colonies and asteroids and shipped back to the core planets to be distributed in some form over the entire territory. Though obviously those races with more power within the bureaucracy and star fleet get the better cut based on how much attention their worlds get vs. the minor species. The people doing the mining also live in poorer conditions than those on the core worlds who seems to do nothing other than engage in art and study or adventuring around in star ships.

I'm pretty sure that I once saw an episode of Star Trek Voyager ("Author, Author (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Author,_Author_%28episode%29)") which depicted holograms being used for labour in mining, which along with the episode's examination of the social status of holograms in the Federation (they're not considered full citizens; during the episode in question, a tribunal defers the more general question of hologrammatic personhood for a later time, although it does rule that holograms can be legally considered "artists") gives the rather frightening implication that the Federation has no problems enslaving digital intelligences.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm not really clear why those who live on colonies continue to do so. There seems to be freedom of movement but maybe the core planets have population caps or something. Private merchants also seem to play a part in what I've watched so presumably some kind of market continues to exist.

[B5C]

Star Trek is not completely communist. We still have states and the workers don't have complete abolitionism. The Federation is a bit closer to Socialism, but not quite there yet.

[The Jay]

I have noticed recently that quite a few people on here have said they are Star Trek fans. I wouldn't call myself a massive fan, but I quite like it. Anyway, I have a question; What is the economic system of the Star Trek world. I have have seen episodes where there have been references to humans not using money. Indeed from the way it is portrayed it would be possible to imagine human society as 'communist'. However, other species clearly do use money. I am sure that Quark isn't handing out the drinks for free. If this is this case that would mean that human society is effectively 'socialism on one (or actually numerous) planet'.

So what sort of society is the Federation, full communism, or a benign sort of Stalinism?

Devrim

The economic system isn't really stated, but they don't use money. They sometimes trade goods with the other groups outside the Federation. The way that it is described is that people get what they need and want and are free to pursue their interests with those ventures being for the benefit of those around them and for the benefit of the collective. If that isn't what all of us want then what do we want?

As for your question of whether or not it is "Socialism in One Planetary Alliance" I would say that it is, unless you decide to go the whole route of saying that Communism isn't possible unless the entire Universe is.

As for that asshole Quark, that space station was an exception because the writers of DS9 should be flogged. Anyway, the station was not technically in the Federation since the planet below was not and the station belonged to that planet I think. That is why currency was used in the cantina onboard. Quark was not a citizen of the Federation and wasn't constrained to their rules. He was a part of the Ferengi (Alliance? Syndicate? whatever). They are basically Paul Ryan's wet dream and do not reflect on the Federation.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm not really clear why those who live on colonies continue to do so. There seems to be freedom of movement but maybe the core planets have population caps or something.

If I were to guess, I'd say that the Federation offers various incentives to those willing to take part in colonisation efforts - I'd imagine that colonisation is something that is heavily subsidised by the Federation, that colonies get some measure of political autonomy (within the limits of the Constitution, and which might also explain the rise of the Maquis, a militant group formed by Federation colonists following the handover to the Cardassian Union of planets they inhabit), and no doubt there is no small measure of Federation propaganda informing the socio-political narrative, which encourages colonisation.

I may be misremembering, but I recall at least one or two characters stating that they found Earth a rather boring place to live. With far, far fewer neighbours to disturb (Federation colonies have been depicted with populations as few as a handful of thousand people), it seems that colonies could potentially offer a lot in terms of room to breathe and freedom to grow, as it were.


Private merchants also seem to play a part in what I've watched so presumably some kind of market continues to exist.

That might be another function of the outer colonies - to provide an economic "buffer zone" or "filter" between the Federation metropole and other Alpha Quadrant powers, many of which still seem to employ money and markets.

[Astarte]

I'm pretty sure that I once saw an episode of Star Trek Voyager ("Author, Author (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Author,_Author_%28episode%29)") which depicted holograms being used for labour in mining, which along with the episode's examination of the social status of holograms in the Federation (they're not considered full citizens; during the episode in question, a tribunal defers the more general question of hologrammatic personhood for a later time, although it does rule that holograms can be legally considered "artists") gives the rather frightening implication that the Federation has no problems enslaving digital intelligences.

Reminds me of the "self-moving statues" of Daedalus which even Aristotle thousands of years ago imagined was the only alternative to slave labor i.e. exploitation.

[The Jay]

Oh god, I hate Voyager. I just had to say that, sorry everyone.

[zimmerwald1915]

As for that asshole Quark, that space station was an exception because the writers of DS9 should be flogged. Anyway, the station was not technically in the Federation since the planet below was not and the station belonged to that planet I think. That is why currency was used in the cantina onboard. Quark was not a citizen of the Federation and wasn't constrained to their rules. He was a part of the Ferengi (Alliance? Syndicate? whatever). They are basically Paul Ryan's wet dream and do not reflect on the Federation.
The Ferengi Alliance is a caricature of 1980s America socially and politically, mixed with a good helping of slapstick and general goofiness.

In any case, the political points Star Trek makes always have their root in left liberalism. TOS started out poking fun at the Cold War and showcasing racial equality. TNG moved on to bashing Reaganism (this is the reason the Ferengi look silly) and late Stalinism (borg, anyone?). Within the internal history, I gather that the Federation "evolved" away from a market economy for no particular reason. There wasn't a large rupture that caused it (the closest the Trekverse comes to a rupture is the Eugenics Wars and World War III, but First Contact showed the post-World War III Earth still using currency), still less a revolution. I haven't watched enough DS9 or Voyager to know what the political animus of those shows was, but by Enterprise the people in charge stopped seemed to stop caring about things in general, let alone pushing an agenda.

There's no point in making the case that Trek makes the case for Communism except to make a right-winger's blood pressure rise.

[The Jay]

The Ferengi Alliance is a caricature of 1980s America socially and politically, mixed with a good helping of slapstick and general goofiness.

In any case, the political points Star Trek makes always have their root in left liberalism. TOS started out poking fun at the Cold War and showcasing racial equality. TNG moved on to bashing Reaganism (this is the reason the Ferengi look silly) and late Stalinism (borg, anyone?). I haven't watched enough DS9 or Voyager to know what the political animus of those shows was, but by Enterprise the people in charge stopped seemed to stop caring about things in general, let alone pushing an agenda.

There's no point in making the case that Trek makes the case for Communism except to make a right-winger's blood pressure rise.


That is logical enough. I can see why you would say that. You can't deny that some of the goals reached in the Federation are analogous to our own though.

EDIT: I missed your edit so I'll add more. There are certainly inconsistencies in the story line but that just means that things would happen differently in the real world, big shocker there.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Oh god, I hate Voyager. I just had to say that, sorry everyone.

That's understandable, but what the hell was wrong with DS9? Boo. Hiss.


There's no point in making the case that Trek makes the case for Communism except to make a right-winger's blood pressure rise.

Well, raising right-wingers' blood pressure is a fun pastime...

While it's good that the Star Trek universe is one where it seems capitalism isn't the final answer in socioeconomic terms - there are too many science fiction universes which make the baseless assumption that capitalism is here to stay - it doesn't go far enough for my liking.

It's why I'd like to write science fiction for a living.

[Klaatu]

Star Trek (actually the Starship Enterprise, and the other ships) is actually a military regiment patrolling and exploring deep space.
They have indeed said they do not use money, but that may only apply to their 'star navy' or 'space force' not to the civilians back on Earth?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Star Trek (actually the Starship Enterprise, and the other ships) is actually a military regiment patrolling and exploring deep space.
They have indeed said they do not use money, but that may only apply to their 'star navy' or 'space force' not to the civilians back on Earth?

In Deep Space Nine we see Captain Benjamin Sisko's father running a restaurant on Earth - yet money is never mentioned, and it seems to be more along the lines of a extended hobby rather than a business.

[Red Commissar]

Just an advance warning, I'm familiar with star trek but I wouldn't consider myself a committed fan.

The issue with Star Trek is that its vibe depends on who was writing the particular show. Gene Roddenberry in the original series as well as from his inputs on The Next Generation, there was a distinctive utopian background based on humanistic principles. I would not say that it's full on communism or a benign stalinism, just kind of a utopian, optimistic view of Roddenberry's where humanity has transcended its prior divisions created out of class, nationality, ethnicity, race, religion, etc, where everyone works together for the betterment of all. The only thing I can say for certainty about the economy in Star Trek's world, at least for humans, is that they've reached a post-scarcity arrangement.

I would not agree with the title of this video but it essentially highlights the point above with how Roddenberry and other writers saw the future. It involves an encounter the Enterprise crew had with humans from our time.

pzqW0YaN2ho

The other series took on different perspectives, so you get some variation on what Earth is like and what it's intention is.

[B5C]

As for that asshole Quark, that space station was an exception because the writers of DS9 should be flogged. Anyway, the station was not technically in the Federation since the planet below was not and the station belonged to that planet I think. That is why currency was used in the cantina onboard. Quark was not a citizen of the Federation and wasn't constrained to their rules. He was a part of the Ferengi (Alliance? Syndicate? whatever). They are basically Paul Ryan's wet dream and do not reflect on the Federation.

DS9 before the Dominion War was owned by Bajor after the Cardassians withdraw from the planet. The reason why Bajor gave DS9 to Federation Control was to keep the Cardassian Union at bay. Once the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant was found the Federation tried it best to keep a foothold onto the station until the Bajorians signed an non-aggression pack with the Dominion and the Station fell to the Dominion after the "Second Battle of Deep Space 9."

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The other series took on different perspectives, so you get some variation on what Earth is like and what it's intention is.

While money and markets are depicted more frequently in Deep Space Nine (IIRC), it seems the writers decided to continue depicting 24th century Earth as having a utopian moneyless economy at least.

At best I'd say that the Federation is depicted as some kind of utopian socialist society - think Saint-Simon rather than Marx.

[B5C]

Here is some evidence that Earth never had money:


When Nog suggests that Jake should bid for a baseball card in an auction, Jake says "I'm Human, I don't have any money." Nog replies "It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement." Jake says "Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." Nog then replies "What does that mean?" Jake responds "It means we don't need money!" Nog quickly points out, however, that Jake wouldn't be able to bid or borrow. (DS9: "In the Cards")

Jake: (big smile) "I sold my first book today." Quark: "Really? How much did you get for it?" Jake: "It's just a figure of speech. The Federation News Service is going to publish a book of my stories about life on the station under Dominion rule." Jake then confirmed Quark's suspicion that he was not paid. (DS9: "You Are Cordially Invited")

Tom Paris says about the significance of Fort Knox: "When the New World Economy took shape in the late 22nd century and money went the way of the dinosaur, Fort Knox was turned into a museum." (VOY: "Dark Frontier")

Also from memory Alpha that some Federation members did continue a market system:


The Bank of Bolias was a major financial institution, and Bolarus IX, a Federation member planet, apparently has a market economy. (DS9: "Starship Down", "Who Mourns for Morn?")

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Money

[Klaatu]

My impression is that while "core worlds" like Earth and Vulcan no longer use currency, it is still in use in the outer colonies.

I had thought about Vulcans. Their saying "Live long and prosper" suggests they value money /property, hence not communist nor utopian?

[The Jay]

Here is some evidence that Earth never had money:



Also from memory Alpha that some Federation members did continue a market system:



http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Money

Did you notice that the reference to a market using Federation planet was from DS9?

[The Jay]

I had thought about Vulcans. Their saying "Live long and prosper" suggests they value money /property, hence not communist nor utopian?


Your interpretation of the word 'prosper' is not taking into account the other possible definitions.

[B5C]

I had thought about Vulcans. Their saying "Live long and prosper" suggests they value money /property, hence not communist nor utopian?


Actually, money in the Vulcan life is not compatible with their philosophy. Money would destroy Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

[B5C]

Did you notice that the reference to a market using Federation planet was from DS9?

Yes, because the Bank of Bolias provided a Sub-plot for a DS9 episode involving the Orion Syndicate I believe.

[The Jay]

Yes, because the Bank of Bolias provided a Sub-plot for a DS9 episode involving the Orion Syndicate I believe.

That is why I hate DS9. It takes an irreverent dump all over TOS and TNG.

[Turinbaar]

The only governing body mentioned is the Federation Council, whose functions and claims to legitimacy are dubious and not clearly stated.

Money seems to be used only when interacting with species to still use currency, otherwise I think I remember some sort of credit system being mentioned.

Picard's brother owned a vineyard, so some sort of private property seems to exist.

The only major political move I remember the federation making was Picard's role in the restoration of the Klingon Monarchy.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I had thought about Vulcans. Their saying "Live long and prosper" suggests they value money /property, hence not communist nor utopian?


Vulcans aren't depicted as being particularly materialistic (unlike the Ferengi), so I would hazard to guess that "prosper" is meant in the sense of thriving rather than getting rich.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

That is why I hate DS9. It takes an irreverent dump all over TOS and TNG.

I'm pretty sure the Federation in TOS was capitalist.

[The Jay]

I'm pretty sure the Federation in TOS was capitalist.

Was it? It has been a while but I don't recall it being so. I could be wrong.

[B5C]

I'm pretty sure the Federation in TOS was capitalist.

No it was it. There were credits for transporter use or replicator use for energy saving.

[Turinbaar]

There are also incidents that show the federation has not fully worked out of the old contradictions imposed by property relations. There was a debate about whether Data was a sentient individual or a piece of property, and in Voyager there were raised questions about the holographic doctor's rights to intellectual property, and about holographic beings used by the federation as slave labor (or by aliens for hunting sport).

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

There are also incidents that show the federation has not fully worked out of the old contradictions imposed by property relations. There was a debate about whether Data was a sentient individual or a piece of property, and in Voyager there were raised questions about the holographic doctor's rights to intellectual property, and about holographic beings used by the federation as slave labor (or by aliens for hunting sport).

I'm not sure how the question of whether an entity constitutes a person relates to property - what's to stop a hypothetical propertyless society from denying non-human intelligences the opportunity to participate in politics?

[tuwix]

I have noticed recently that quite a few people on here have said they are Star Trek fans. I wouldn't call myself a massive fan, but I quite like it. Anyway, I have a question; What is the economic system of the Star Trek world. I have have seen episodes where there have been references to humans not using money. Indeed from the way it is portrayed it would be possible to imagine human society as 'communist'. However, other species clearly do use money. I am sure that Quark isn't handing out the drinks for free. If this is this case that would mean that human society is effectively 'socialism on one (or actually numerous) planet'.

So what sort of society is the Federation, full communism, or a benign sort of Stalinism?


IMHO, it's just utopian socialism. The utopia that there can be class society (there is a class of military bureaucrats) and state (the Federation is a state with its president) without property.

[ellipsis]

Definitely still a hierarchical society in any case. I was recently watching Enterprise (just for the sexy vulcan and scott bacula) and i noticed that crewmen had to share smaller quarters with another person, while the captain had nice large quarters, all to himself.

Also colonists are exploited as shit, left to the own devices on hostile and remote worlds to further the reach of the federation.

[revoltordie]

i see the world of star trek as being one that is a post capital society that had not had a revolution hence private property relations and hierarchical structures and its relations to other societies. purely utopian.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm not sure how the question of whether an entity constitutes a person relates to property - what's to stop a hypothetical propertyless society from denying non-human intelligences the opportunity to participate in politics?

If synthetic intelligences don't belong to themselves then they must belong to someone else I guess. Presumably the organization that uses them, the federation, starship crews or captains maybe.

I've always found the tv shows and movies to be really uninteresting aside from a few one off episodes, but I could geek out about star trek's universe for hours. The culture novels are my favorite SciFi utopia with dark undertones though

[Jimmie Higgins]

More than benign Stalinism, they leap right over the question of class and achieve abundance without exploitation through "magical" replication technology. In the original show they still had "space" credits or something and they were always running out of dilithium crystals as a power source - so it was still a "space scarsity" society (and they had to always negotiate with the planets that had the power supply) I guess and maybe that would be more like "benign Stalinism" or a really big welfare state. I guess somewhere inbetween the shows replicators came into being and energy shortages seem to be much less common.

The Ferengi are arch-capitalists. It's like Ayn Rand's planet (it would have been a hilarious dig at Rand had the writers ever put a line in somewhere where Quark claims her as an honorary Ferengi). I think the characters on the enterprize even comment about how the Ferengi "still hold values" that have long-since disappeared on earth.

The best "communist" star trek episode is where the enterprize finds a bunch of rich people who froze themselves and shot themselves into space waiting for medical science to cure their diseases so they could be thawed-out. They all expect to get their savings and have the same eliete social status and Piccard gives them a lecture not unlike a comrade here would respond to a elitist libertraian in O.I.

[tuwix]

I'd consider the Federation as Stalinist if there was a state property that in such countries is overwhelming. However, you can lead there your own restaurant and give food to people for free as Sisko's. Besides there is no party. Everyone who lived in Stalinist or post-Stalinist state know that the party is everywhere. The party which has 'communism', 'labor', 'socialism' or 'worker' in its name lead by Secretary General or the Firs secretary of the Central Committee.

Welfare state? I could agree with that if there was money and property, but money became obsolete...

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'd consider the Federation as Stalinist if there was a state property that in such countries is overwhelming. However, you can lead there your own restaurant and give food to people for free as Sisko's. Besides there is no party. Everyone who lived in Stalinist or post-Stalinist state know that the party is everywhere. The party which has 'communism', 'labor', 'socialism' or 'worker' in its name lead by Secretary General or the Firs secretary of the Central Committee.

Welfare state? I could agree with that if there was money and property, but money became obsolete...

You can give food away for free because it falls within the Federation's values to do so. Groups that step outside that boundary are generally dealt with pretty quickly. I dont think anyone is using Stalinism to mean that the federation adheres to any kind of marxist-Leninist ideology, just the form that their economy takes.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

If synthetic intelligences don't belong to themselves then they must belong to someone else I guess. Presumably the organization that uses them, the federation, starship crews or captains maybe.

I was more challenging the unspoken assumption you made (correct me if I'm wrong) that a society without property (not the Federation, just any hypothetical society that deals with non-human intelligences) would necessarily treat non-human intelligences as equals.


I've always found the tv shows and movies to be really uninteresting aside from a few one off episodes, but I could geek out about star trek's universe for hours. The culture novels are my favorite SciFi utopia with dark undertones though

The Culture novels are awesome, indeed. I think the Prime Directive is actually a truly terrible idea that would lead to a great deal of unnecessary suffering and death, hence I appreciate that the Culture sometimes sees fit to actively interact with civilisations less technologically advanced than themselves.


More than benign Stalinism, they leap right over the question of class and achieve abundance without exploitation through "magical" replication technology. In the original show they still had "space" credits or something and they were always running out of dilithium crystals as a power source - so it was still a "space scarsity" society (and they had to always negotiate with the planets that had the power supply) I guess and maybe that would be more like "benign Stalinism" or a really big welfare state. I guess somewhere inbetween the shows replicators came into being and energy shortages seem to be much less common.

Remember that in TOS the Enterprise was a military/exploration vessel, usually operating far from those volumes of space well-travelled by the Federation, so energy shortages on such a vessel should not be taken to be representative of the Federation as a whole, even if it was capitalist during the TOS era.


The Ferengi are arch-capitalists. It's like Ayn Rand's planet (it would have been a hilarious dig at Rand had the writers ever put a line in somewhere where Quark claims her as an honorary Ferengi). I think the characters on the enterprize even comment about how the Ferengi "still hold values" that have long-since disappeared on earth.

I think that ties in with what I said earlier about the outer colonies providing "breathing space" and/or "room to grow". I get the fairly strong impression that Federation culture, on Earth at least, is quite conformist and conservative (in the non-political sense) - an awful lot of Federation civilians seem to wear pastel colours, listen to nothing more daring than classical or generic jazz music, and we don't seem to see any subcultures, except perhaps for humans adopting alien cultures. This atmosphere of cloying niceness is perhaps too much for some, and colonisation might give such people a potential outlet as well as a chance to lead a less suffocatingly saccharine life.


The best "communist" star trek episode is where the enterprize finds a bunch of rich people who froze themselves and shot themselves into space waiting for medical science to cure their diseases so they could be thawed-out. They all expect to get their savings and have the same eliete social status and Piccard gives them a lecture not unlike a comrade here would respond to a elitist libertraian in O.I.

I've always loved science fiction stories about "future shock (http://www.sl4.org/shocklevels.html)", but to my xenophile eyes the Star Trek future would actually be one of the least "future shocking" ones for me were I to wake up in it one day.

[Manic Impressive]

No one mentioned the Lucille Ball factor yet? She funded the original series through her production company Desilu productions. And she was a big ol' commie, but renounced any affiliation at the hearing of unamerican activities. Maybe coincidence that a show that a communalistic quality to it is also funded by someone who is very likely to have been a communist, but maybe not.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

No one mentioned the Lucille Ball factor yet? She funded the original series through her production company Desilu productions. And she was a big ol' commie, but renounced any affiliation at the hearing of unamerican activities. Maybe coincidence that a show that a communalistic quality to it is also funded by someone who is very likely to have been a communist, but maybe not.

I guess that would depend on her relationship to Roddenbury. Do you know anything about that?

[Manic Impressive]

They were friends, I know she had direct input into the show, something like "final approval" or something and she kept funding it even though it was losing money.

On the other hand I'm pretty sure Roddenbury has said that Star Trek was never supposed to be communist. IIRC he's spoken out quite strongly against it.

So if there is a communist inspiration within the production of Star Trek I would look more towards the production company rather than the writer/creator.

Anyway on the federation credit, I always thought of them as labour vouchers. The trouble with defining them as money or not is that we don't know how they are acquired. Whether you get them for the work you have done as in payment, whether they are like a ration where everybody gets them equally or on a needs basis. One indication that they are payment as in wages is in ToS where Kirk says that "Starfleet has a lot invested in Spok. In fact over 122,000 plus credits". Although with Kirk you've always got to take into account that he's being ironic or winding Spok up. To get some bearing on the value of federation credits 1 tribble costs 10 credits in 2267 around the time that Kirk indicates the amount invested in Spok. Skip forward 100 years and the federation offers to buy the Bazaran wormhole for 1,500,000 credits up front with a rent of 100,000 credits per year. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation_credit

[Quail]

As other people have said above, I think that the society portrayed in Star Trek is a kind of utopian socialist society. It's optimistic and (I think) tries to show that at some point humanity will outgrow prejudice and a better society is possible.

Obviously I do think there are a few political issues, and TOS is very much "of its time." For example it's explicitly stated that discrimination based gender no longer exists, but the women's uniforms and Kirk's endless conquests, plus some of the dialogue, suggest otherwise.

There is an interesting episode of TOS which I think could be interpreted in quite an anticapitalist way, called The Cloud Minders (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Cloud_Minders_%28episode%29). At one point, Spock notes that it doesn't make sense for one social class does all the work on the planet, while the other reaps all the benefits.

[tuwix]

I dont think anyone is using Stalinism to mean that the federation adheres to any kind of marxist-Leninist ideology, just the form that their economy takes.

I've experienced Stalinist or post-Stalinist economy living in Stalinist or post-Stalinist country. And believe me, it reminds me nothing in the Star Trek economy.

[Aurora]

I haven't watched enough DS9 or Voyager to know what the political animus of those shows was, but by Enterprise the people in charge stopped seemed to stop caring about things in general, let alone pushing an agenda.

The main theme of DS9 is resistance, Bajorans resist Cardassians, Maquis resist Federation and Cardassians, Alpha quadrant resists Gamma quadrant, Federation and Klingons resist Dominion, Cardassians and Breen.

There's also a theme of the grey between right and wrong, which i think makes DS9 much better than other Treks, the Federation is not always right in DS9 it exterminates the Maquis to protect it's treaty with Cardassia and Section 31 protects the interests of the Federation by torture, assassinations and genocide.

[B5C]

There's also a theme of the grey between right and wrong, which i think makes DS9 much better than other Treks, the Federation is not always right in DS9 it exterminates the Maquis to protect it's treaty with Cardassia and Section 31 protects the interests of the Federation by torture, assassinations and genocide.

Especially..
When Sisko & Garak created a plan to fool the Romulans to join on the side of the Federation after the Feds losing a series of battles against the Dominion. Once an Romulan Senator found out the plot and returned home to informed of the Federation's trickery. He was assassinated by Garak and the death made it look like it was done by the Dominion. In which caused the Romulan Star Empire to join the Dominon War on the side of the Federation/Klingon Alliance.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Deep Space Nine is by far my favourite Star Trek series. The fact that the characters and factions are shown to have more shades of grey rather than being black and white in terms of moral character, gives so much more dramatic force to the threats faced by the Federation, as well as posing the question of how far should one go to protect utopia.

Also, the fact that the stories were more able to follow arcs made for some impressive character development, in stark contrast to the other series which had a much stronger tendency to hit the reset button and restore the status quo.

[Turinbaar]

I'm not sure how the question of whether an entity constitutes a person relates to property - what's to stop a hypothetical propertyless society from denying non-human intelligences the opportunity to participate in politics?

It does because the entity is alienated from its own individuality and arbitrated in its existence as an object of labor. The Federation used the word "property" to describe Data, and analogy to race slavery as property was made in the debates over this and the other issues.

That which could prevent the outcome you suggest would be resistance by those conscious of the history of property and labor. Also, Voyager showed the possibility of a holographic rebellion.

[Devrim]

I've experienced Stalinist or post-Stalinist economy living in Stalinist or post-Stalinist country. And believe me, it reminds me nothing in the Star Trek economy.

Yes, I didn't mean it as a direct comparison with the economy in the former Soviet Bloc, which is incidentally where I live, more of a comparison with the whole idea of 'socialism in one country'.


As for your question of whether or not it is "Socialism in One Planetary Alliance" I would say that it is, unless you decide to go the whole route of saying that Communism isn't possible unless the entire Universe is.

I would say that you have to 'go the whole route'. When a planet or Federation is integrated into a wider galactic economy, which is based on money, and the value form, I don't think you can have communism.

I think that most of the contradictions are basically mistakes in that they haven't really thought through the implications of the idea very well.

Devrim

[Devrim]

The main theme of DS9 is resistance, Bajorans resist Cardassians, Maquis resist Federation and Cardassians, Alpha quadrant resists Gamma quadrant, Federation and Klingons resist Dominion, Cardassians and Breen.

There's also a theme of the grey between right and wrong, which i think makes DS9 much better than other Treks, the Federation is not always right in DS9 it exterminates the Maquis to protect it's treaty with Cardassia and Section 31 protects the interests of the Federation by torture, assassinations and genocide.


Deep Space Nine is by far my favourite Star Trek series. The fact that the characters and factions are shown to have more shades of grey rather than being black and white in terms of moral character, gives so much more dramatic force to the threats faced by the Federation, as well as posing the question of how far should one go to protect utopia.

Also, the fact that the stories were more able to follow arcs made for some impressive character development, in stark contrast to the other series which had a much stronger tendency to hit the reset button and restore the status quo.

I would agree that Deep Space Nine is the best Star Trek series I have seen I have never seen even a single episode of voyager though, so I can't say it is the best.

Devrim

[Quail]

I would agree that Deep Space Nine is the best Star Trek series I have seen I have never seen even a single episode of voyager though, so I can't say it is the best.

Devrim
You'd be unlikely to think Voyager is better than DS9.

[B5C]

You'd be unlikely to think Voyager is better than DS9.

At least Voyager was better than Enterprise.

[Strannik]

I always understood that Federation is not a single society, but an alliance of different planetary societies, some of which might be moneyless and others welfare capitalistic, etc. One condition to be accepted was "unified" planetary government and lack of violent/"radical" political movements. Federation would use "credits" to interact with different economies as well as with economies outside of Federation - in once case the Federation as a whole is participating in an auction for a wormhole, using credits.

I'd say it's "post-scarcity left liberalism" in American sense of the word. There was probably never a revolution of any kind and private property laws were never abandoned, but since there are infinite resources, unlimited accessibility and infinite expansion space, the problems of capitalism are practically absent. In the STNG there was some scientist who owned a planet, Sisko's dad owns a restaurant even when he chooses to serve customers without money etc.

In practice it's a tv show written by many people with conflicting beliefs, so at best there are some leftish influences. Roddenberry apparently was interested in technocracy and one of the original series writers, Theodore Sturgeon also translated novels by Strugatsky brothers into english... and other such vague connections.

[Sir Comradical]

Socialism in one intergalactic federation can never work, so yeah it's Stalinism alright.