SPARTA

[Monty Cantsin]

As this is a political site I just wanted to bring up other systems then capitalism communism.

Sparta had a very totalitarian system pretty much the state owned you from cradle to grave. They had two kings then under them a oligarchy of elders then below that the rest of the “equals” in the lowest legislative branch of government.

Their society was set up in a pyramid hierarchy you had the kings at the top then the equals which were all the soldiers, then the perioeci and last and least the helots.


So any comments on sparta and aspect of their nation, people, coustoms or warfare?

[the SovieT]

i fear that the Spartian system can't be so easily resumed...


it was really more complex than that...

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

any relation to 'Sparticus' the rebellious slave? Was he named after this system?

[Fear]

They had a somewhat of a Darwnist approach of "only the strongest survive." They would leave the weak born babies(disabilities, etc) out on the near-by cliffs to die. Strange custom.

[Pete]

Not a strange custom in the historical realities. The Greek penesula(s) was composed of many individual polis (citystates) which where constantly at war with one another, though there were a few times of union, such as against the Persians, and the Delian League (AKA Athenian Empire). Sparta took the idea that they had to be strong to survive, and thus anything that was weak was left to die. It was a form of eugenics one might say, weeding out the weak from the strong.

Boys all had to undergo military training and spent 20 or 30 years (I think) in hte military before they could be considered full citizens. This all began at the age 10, if I am not mistaken. They were taken from their homes at an early age and put into strict schools, the schools then graduated them into the army, and from the army they entered into the full society, but always a good portion of the population was soldiers. It is sort of like Israel has mandatory conscription, and everyone must serve in the army. After they finish their tour of duty (or jail term if they refuse) they become full citizens, but will still fight in the army if the need exists.

The system, like all, becomes self perpetuating after a time and that is perhaps what lead it to last so long. Their are many examples of the Spartans fighting to death to allow other Greeks to escape, such as in one battle against the Persians. Alexander the Great was trained by a Spartan in the arts of war, and they were known for their soldiers and generals as Athens was for its wealth and de facto empire (Athens reminds me in a way of the USA).

-Pete

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 2 2004, 12:27 AM
any relation to 'Sparticus' the rebellious slave? Was he named after this system?
Well the system was designed so that the warriors were tough strong they achieved this by making every day practices every rough. There were no comforts or very little there food was slop. So maybe he got the name for those reasons.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 1 2004, 11:53 PM
i fear that the Spartian system can't be so easily resumed...


it was really more complex than that...
i just did a basic outline. so if you want to go into more depth go ahead.

[Soviet power supreme]

I remember that young Spartan kids were put into a arena and the strongest ones was selected.The poor ones were killed if they havent already died in the test.

[Hiero]

I just finished studying sparta at high school. I find it be the most ruthless and panariod system they were frigin crazy. Sparta is kind of like Japan in some ways. Sparta forced there true dorion descendant males to be great soldiers and were forced to train long hard hours froma young age becuase this is what made Sparta the powerfull state it was it was depent on its military. Japan does the same thing but with its students.

[LSD]

Of course, what you also have to remember about Sparta is what it demonstrates about the power of that kind of totalitarianism. That Sparta, a prototypal fascist state defeated Athens, the effective progenerator of modern democracy, really shows that you have to fight for freedom and equality. There are no guarantees that the right system will always win.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 3 2004, 08:09 AM
Of course, what you also have to remember about Sparta is what it demonstrates about the power of that kind of totalitarianism. That Sparta, a prototypal fascist state defeated Athens, the effective progenerator of modern democracy, really shows that you have to fight for freedom and equality. There are no guarantees that the right system will always win.
The defeat of Athens also shows how people can be tricked into following people like Cleon and acting like a mob. Therefore shows why there should be education for all so a democracy can function properly.

[LSD]

The defeat of Athens also shows how people can be tricked into following people like Cleon and acting like a mob


Cleon died in 422, 18 years before Athen's defeat. In actuallity Sparta won because of superior military tactics and powerfull allies (Persia). Again, you can't blame the system itself. In fact in 411 the oligarchists who had overthrown the democracy were prepared to negotiate. When the democacy was restored, the peace offers were rejected, and 6 years later athens fell.

Although it would be nice to imagine that Athens fell because they had abandoned their principles or forgotten democracy, in reality it was just a war and the side that won won.

[Pete]

Athenian democracy was never democratic in the modern sense, it was more 'democracy for the slave owners.'

[LSD]

absolutely, but want do you want it was 2500 years ago! For the times it was quite progressive

[Monty Cantsin]

If Cleon wasn’t around Athens would have won that war. they wouldn’t have gone on the Sicilian expedition. they would have stayed with pericles plans.

[The Children of the Revolution]

I find The Spartans absolutely fascinating. I was unfortunate in that I never got a chance to study them at school, but I read up on them anyhow... I know their "system" was sometimes cruel, but it certainly lasted a long time! 'CrazyPete' summed up Spartan History neatly; I will expand on one of the "many examples of the Spartans fighting to death to allow other Greeks to escape" if I may - the battle of Thermopylae.

"Thermopylae" ['Hot Gates' in ancient Greek, or so I am informed...] was a narrow pass connecting northern and southern Greece. The City states of Sparta and Athens (amongst others) lay beyond, and the invading Persian army would have to break through. Around 7000 Greeks stood in defence, of which 300 were Spartan warriors. King Leonidas led the troops.

The first two days of the battle were disheartening for the invaders. The Greek forces stood firm; longer spears [!], superior discipline, and wonderful tactics (feigned retreat followed by counterattack) combined to inflict massive losses on the Persian army. However, a traitor then led a 10,000 strong Persian force behind Greek lines - by means of a secret pass known to few. Most of the Greek soldiers retreated, but the Spartans remained.

Numbering only 300, and surrounded by over 20,000 troops, Leonidas could have surrendered... But the Spartan warrior code forbade it. Each man fought to the death, with sword, spear - even bare hands. Of course they all perished, making a final stand on a grassy hill. But the battle has since passed into legend as the everlasting 'spirit' of Sparta.

A wonderful tale. Everyone should study the Spartans.

[Monty Cantsin]

cotr you've got a pretty good summary there of the battle of Thermopylae but i just like to add one thing you make it sould like the other greeks just ran off and left the spartans there. not saying that you intended it that way. but the point is the spartans were trying to give the other greeks the time to get away and muster a defence against the Persian army. it was pland to be a rallying point a effort that would be a Inspiration for other greeks to fight on. the spartans new they were going to lose so they only sent 300 to hold them up, to gain more time.

[The Children of the Revolution]

the point is the spartans were trying to give the other greeks the time to get away and muster a defence against the Persian army. it was pland to be a rallying point a effort that would be a Inspiration for other greeks to fight on. the spartans new they were going to lose so they only sent 300 to hold them up, to gain more time.


This is, of course, true. The Spartans covered the Greek retreat. I'm afraid I got a little caught up in the moment and neglected a few points... But the battle is a legend, rather than a series of facts! It is the "spirit of Sparta" that I tried to describe, not the military significance of the action!



so they only sent 300 to hold them up


This was all of the Spartan force! It was the Spartans that remained, the Spartans that fought to the last!

But you are right.

[Monty Cantsin]

CotR pretty cool. good to see we can agree on things but it can take the fun out of posting sometimes.

[The Children of the Revolution]

Heh, you want conflict? Surely the more Communists can agree about stuff, the better the chances for revolution!! (Seriously, if you DO want conflict, ask me a question about God! Everyone here [bar a few, myself included] is a damned atheist!)

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 16 2004, 02:50 AM
Heh, you want conflict? Surely the more Communists can agree about stuff, the better the chances for revolution!! (Seriously, if you DO want conflict, ask me a question about God! Everyone here [bar a few, myself included] is a damned atheist!)
no i dont want confilct its great that communist see eye to eye but theres no other view points being expressed because of restrictions. so all i was saying is that conversations work better if you have a range of view points.