How can I irritate people today?

[Agent provocateur]

How can I provoke you all into some very incendiary methods of revolution in lieu of these dovish approaches you have hitherto been discussing among yourselves. I was at the FTAA protests and all I saw was a lot of amateurish behavior. I wonder if you all are like those protestors I saw there? If you are I feel like I've wasted my time on this forum. Maybe you are all FBI agents in disguise?

:unsure:

[Rastaman]

i'm no fed are u?

so you want to go on a crusade? i'm with ya then.. where do you live?

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I have never been to a protest, I dont protest as I think there is no point, it doesnt acheive anything.

Mao "political power comes from the barrel of a gun"


I couldnt agree more.

[Agent provocateur]

I'm no fed. I'm a provocateur to on our side against them--- the reactionaries. :rolleyes:

Miami, FL

[Rastaman]

so which building you wanna burn first.. the pentagon? the white haus? come on there is nothing we can do with our numbers..

[Agent provocateur]

Burning the stinking White House or Pentagon is too obvious&#33; I rest my case with the lack of imagination of these people. Forget it pal. But keep learning with these people. At least their political ideology is on the right path however fucked up their methods for arriving at Utopia are. <_<

[Rob]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 04:19 PM
so which building you wanna burn first.. the pentagon? the white haus? come on there is nothing we can do with our numbers..
Greeat...you know that the feds are probably monitoring this, right?

[DeadMan]

Originally posted by Rob+Dec 31 2003, 11:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rob @ Dec 31 2003, 11:35 AM)
[email protected] 31 2003, 04:19 PM
so which building you wanna burn first.. the pentagon? the white haus? come on there is nothing we can do with our numbers..
Greeat...you know that the feds are probably monitoring this, right? [/b]
LMAO&#33; This is obviously a joke thread ;) ....they wouldn&#39;t think little old me would be Usama now would they? Well, it would obviously be a better target to hit...the hoover dam...then the white house. It&#39;s in the middle of nowhere and it&#39;s energy/water containing is a necesity to the US economy/way of life in the south west...BOO&#33; :lol: :lol: :lol: .

Honestly, if feds are watching this, they really really really need to be able to take a joke.

DeadMan.

[Rastaman]

I dont care what feds think.. and im pretty sure they don&#39;t have a sense of humor.. And what do u ant to do king of revolution??

[Christopher]

Excellent, recruitment for action&#33; Wow, hard to find any serious enough to actually do something.


Agent provocateur:
How can I provoke you all into some very incendiary methods of revolution in lieu of these dovish approaches you have hitherto been discussing among yourselves.

Well doves are unwilling to do anything, you know keep it warm, fuzzy and happy. I believe media has MAJOR liability for the last 20 years of manipulation, deceit and exploitation of Americans. I think that if we believe we are NOT sheep then we should be filing lawsuits. In theory all we need do is be understandable and present the laws and we could have a decision stopping the malfeasance and empowering our unity. However lawyers and judges have turned the courts in a cluster fuck of elitism so we might not get a decision the first time around.

If we believe in our Constitution as an ideal, then the laws are for us and so if the courts insist on being that way, they AT LEAST leave a paper trail. We take the paper trail and wave it in the complacent masses face and say, "You think the system works? You are paying taxes for what? etc. etc." Then explain to them how their children or grand children will be slaves.

I thoroughly discourage blowing shit up and burning things until the police state becomes a reality on your local street looking for your papers between the curfew hours.

Destructive acts ONLY alienate thinking Americans from our just causes. Last resort and we are somewhat not there yet. It divides and already divided people. Chickenshit mindless brats entertain that. Typically they are afraid to use their real name on the internet and they also won&#39;t do shit, even a little subtle psychological cyber activism. My name is Christopher A. Brown and I live in Santa Barbara and I know how to change peoples minds. It is not an instant gratification thing. It takes some effort, you know thinking and typing and you better be in touch with your spiritual side and be able to reason well.


Agent provocateur:
I was at the FTAA protests and all I saw was a lot of amateurish behavior. I wonder if you all are like those protestors I saw there? If you are I feel like I&#39;ve wasted my time on this forum. Maybe you are all FBI agents in disguise?

:unsure:

I protest every weekend here and every day I&#39;m on the web doing exactly what I&#39;m doing here. I&#39;ve found a lot of people who were quite intelligent and sounded like they were ready to make sense on BB&#39;s communicating understandings of our democratically controlled republic, then I ask. suddenly they are too busy. Are you like that?

Here is a little example from this BB.

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=ST&f=4&t=20452 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=20452)

Often the "revolutionaries" want to sound tough and radical but rarely will do anything. We are in serious trouble and further dividing the people is NOT the thing to do. It is way better to take the principles the conservative rights SAY they hold dear and sacred, show how those principles are engaged through free speech, and ask them if they believe in them enough to do something good.

If you&#39;ve got the heart and brains for it, I can show you where I&#39;ve been on BB&#39;s and the havoc I&#39;ve caused just by making sense.

[Rastaman]

contact me by email or icq.

[Rob]

Originally posted by DeadMan+Dec 31 2003, 06:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DeadMan @ Dec 31 2003, 06:09 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 11:35 AM

[email protected] 31 2003, 04:19 PM
so which building you wanna burn first.. the pentagon? the white haus? come on there is nothing we can do with our numbers..
Greeat...you know that the feds are probably monitoring this, right?
LMAO&#33; This is obviously a joke thread ;) ....they wouldn&#39;t think little old me would be Usama now would they? Well, it would obviously be a better target to hit...the hoover dam...then the white house. It&#39;s in the middle of nowhere and it&#39;s energy/water containing is a necesity to the US economy/way of life in the south west...BOO&#33; :lol: :lol: :lol: .

Honestly, if feds are watching this, they really really really need to be able to take a joke.

DeadMan. [/b]
Of course its a joke, but a sense of humor is one thing most government workers and security personnel lack.

[Rastaman]

i&#39;ve said that rob... i&#39;ve yet to meet a nice policeman..

[Christopher]

Rastaman:
i&#39;ve said that rob... i&#39;ve yet to meet a nice policeman.
The first thing about compelling change or revolution is:

Know your enemy.

The policeman is not your enemy. If you believe the policeman is your enemy, you are thinking exactly like the corporate executives and fascists in government want you to think. Your angry opposition helps justify their existence. If you think like they want you to and get angry then express that anger and make them fearful, they will able to get LOTS of money to repress you and what ever it is you stand for.

I realize some policemen violate your rights, they are the ones told to do so to make you think all cops are like them. Then when you go out and see other policeman you show them your anger and they may want to violate your rights.

Your enemy is in board rooms and executive offices, sitting on benches in courts and in front of the bar (in court) lying. Your enemy is the ordinary, every day, average ignorance, apathy, complacency and confusion

[gawkygeek]

most of the police are the enemy, they are not yet ready to abandon the system they have sworn to protect, and thus, when it all comes down to it, they are the sword and shield of the cooperate world, they are the wall that stops us from spreading our ideals. the police are always the first to quite us and the first to put down any insurgence what so ever. they are not our true enemy, but they have stood to be counted with it

[Rastaman]

I don&#39;t understand why anyone with a spark of intelligence would want to become a policeman.. They are the pawns of the aristocracy..

[Le Libérer]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 10:36 AM
I don&#39;t understand why anyone with a spark of intelligence would want to become a policeman.. They are the pawns of the aristocracy..
I have posted this before, but this is a good place to repeat it.

The USAF places those who test the lowest on IQ exams in MP positions. It takes a subhuman mentality to want to be a policeman. I once had a Narcotics agent tell me police are the opposite of social workers because as a policeman, you have to assume everyone is guilty, where as a social worker assumes there is good in everyone.

To Provacateur: The pen is mighter than the sword, tried writing any editorials? Local Newspapers? Mags? Here? To be displayed on the site?

I&#39;ve written some editorials locally myself, recently. I got quite a response&#33;

[redstar2000]

If we believe in our Constitution as an ideal, then the laws are for us...

Why would anyone with any sense believe that?


...I live in Santa Barbara and I know how to change people&#39;s minds. It is not an instant gratification thing. It takes some effort, you know thinking and typing and you better be in touch with your spiritual side and be able to reason well.

Beautiful little city, Santa Barbara...presumably named after the patron saint of the rich. Contrary to local legend, it wasn&#39;t actually designed by Walt Disney...but it could have been.

Changing people&#39;s minds in Santa Barbara is perhaps not that difficult...it&#39;s finding minds to change there that&#39;s the problem.

But that "being in touch with your spiritual side"...I&#39;m know that&#39;s true. The coastal cities of California are literally crawling with "spiritual" boobies...you need to speak "New Age" to order a hamburger--whoops&#33; make that a soy-burger.


It is way better to take the principles the conservative rights SAY they hold dear and sacred, show how those principles are engaged through free speech, and ask them if they believe in them enough to do something good.

Not sure what this means...but since I don&#39;t hold any "conservative principles" dear, I would find it "awkward" to pretend that I did.


The policeman is not your enemy.

Yes he is. What you&#39;re trying to say here is that the policeman is not our only enemy and is not even our major enemy.

Yes, our real enemy is the capitalist ruling class. Cops are the willing servants of that real enemy...which makes them a practical, immediate enemy.

When the Russian autocracy collapsed in February 1917 and the whole army either deserted or joined the revolution, the one group that fought "to the bitter end" to save the old regime was...the police. It actually took weeks to hunt the last ones down and most of them died for a czar who was czar no longer...but not before they murdered a lot of people by sniping from the rooftops of Petrograd.

The largest single occupation group in the "first wave" of Cuban "refugees", arriving in Miami (while Castro and the 26th of July Movement were still a few days march from Havana) consisted of "law enforcement personnel"...cops&#33;


...and make them [the ruling class] fearful...

There is a long history "in the left" of strategies predicated on the notion that "we must not upset" the ruling class or "frighten them", otherwise, they will "turn to fascism".

The French "Popular Front" government in the 1930s used it. Allende in Chile did also. And there are other examples.

It never works. If the ruling class wants to adopt fascist methods of repression, they&#39;ll simply do so...and no amount of servile ass-kissing on our part will make any difference at all.

Indeed, the more deferential we act towards the ruling class, the more arrogant and repressive they are likely to become. If they think they&#39;re "winning", that&#39;s all the more reason for them to grab even more.

It&#39;s not as if they were "fundamentally decent people", after all&#33;

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[DeadMan]

I HATE PIGS&#33;&#33;&#33; FUCKING ASSHOLES&#33;&#33;&#33;

Ok, I really hate them. They purposely try and get me for some crimes. Let&#39;s just say I&#39;m not 100% pure with the law.

DeadMan.

[MRHOTDOGLA]

"I&#39;ve written some editorials locally myself, recently. I got quite a response&#33;"
PROVE IT.

"I was at the FTAA protests"
YOU WOULD THINK THAT THE COPS WOULD BEAT SOME SENSE INTO YOU.

[Hawker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 04:12 PM
I have never been to a protest, I dont protest as I think there is no point, it doesnt acheive anything.

Mao "political power comes from the barrel of a gun"


I couldnt agree more.
Amen to that.The only way I&#39;ll support the movement is with words and if that doesn&#39;t work then I&#39;ll have to resort to the gun.

[Christopher]

Christopher:
If we believe in our Constitution as an ideal, then the laws are for us...////
redstar2000:
Why would anyone with any sense believe that?/////
It takes the sense to know the ideal and compare that to what our neglect and how the system mentality has degraded the reality we know. Are you aware of the meanings of the Magna Carta?///

Christopher:
I live in Santa Barbara and I know how to change people&#39;s minds. It is not an instant gratification thing. It takes some effort, you know thinking and typing and you better be in touch with your spiritual side and be able to reason well./////
redstar2000:
Beautiful little city, Santa Barbara...presumably named after the patron saint of the rich. Contrary to local legend, it wasn&#39;t actually designed by Walt Disney...but it could have been.////
Saint Barbara was the saint of the workers doing dangerous work, probably working for the rich.////

redstar2000:
Changing people&#39;s minds in Santa Barbara is perhaps not that difficult...it&#39;s finding minds to change there that&#39;s the problem.////
I refer to SB as Santa Bubblela. The place has a secret history the colonizing forces kept hidden. That secret was created by the Indigenous spiritual people to help white people deal with the past that religion hidden from them.(I&#39;m white and KNOW that hidden truth)////

redstar2000:
But that "being in touch with your spiritual side"...I&#39;m know that&#39;s true. The coastal cities of California are literally crawling with "spiritual" boobies...you need to speak "New Age" to order a hamburger--whoops&#33; make that a soy-burger.////
Agreed. I&#39;ve written a short play about them called "The Acrystalcarrions". It is the center of the 22nd Congressional district. Are you aware of what the number 22 signifies to the secret societies that created the structure of the system that oppresses us?////

Christopher:
It is way better to take the principles the conservative right SAY they hold dear and sacred, show how those principles are engaged through free speech, and ask them if they believe in them enough to do something good.
redstar2000:
Not sure what this means...but since I don&#39;t hold any "conservative principles" dear, I would find it "awkward" to pretend that I did.////
What, you didn&#39;t love your mother, your father, you don&#39;t love your children? The right has held "family values" as sacred since before I can remember. Children need good air and water and corporations are leading us with dominance into destruction of those elements. Those on the right, conservative side of this lopsided system ARE KILLING their children. If these points are made without malice, it really shakes them up. Seriously I&#39;ve done it many times.

Christopher:
The policeman is not your enemy.////
redstar2000:
Yes he is. What you&#39;re trying to say here is that the policeman is not our only enemy and is not even our major enemy.

Yes, our real enemy is the capitalist ruling class. Cops are the willing servants of that real enemy...which makes them a practical, immediate enemy.//////
There of course is truth in your words. Sometimes it is that way. It is not safe, fair, wise or reasonable to create maxims in our world. So that truth I take with a grain of salt. Actually I am beginning to think that law enforcement has lost respect for us not because they think they are better or because they are the historical servant of the ruling class (there is a hidden history here. A subject into itself) but because we, the public as a group have become indolent, ignorant, neglectful, confused and allowed the disgusting freak comic pimp in the corner, the TV, to teach our children about life. ////
redstar2000:
When the Russian autocracy collapsed in February 1917 and the whole army either deserted or joined the revolution, the one group that fought "to the bitter end" to save the old regime was...the police. It actually took weeks to hunt the last ones down and most of them died for a czar who was czar no longer...but not before they murdered a lot of people by sniping from the rooftops of Petrograd.////
Yes. In Europe the secret societies expanded and engulfed whole segments of society as autonomous anarchical components competing with each other over the people for control.///
redstar2000:
The largest single occupation group in the "first wave" of Cuban "refugees", arriving in Miami (while Castro and the 26th of July Movement were still a few days march from Havana) consisted of "law enforcement personnel"...cops&#33;////
I&#39;m not sure of the point you try to make above and am unfamiliar with the event described./////

Christopher:
...and make them [the ruling class] fearful...
redstar2000:
There is a long history "in the left" of strategies predicated on the notion that "we must not upset" the ruling class or "frighten them", otherwise, they will "turn to fascism".//////
What you say is factual within history. History does not repeat itself endlessly over and over. Often it seems it does. The structure you accurately describe has run the world into he dirt. They have no way out. They see it as an "us or them" situation. If we allow that mentality to dominate then their power will enslave us completely. Only because of the complacency of the masses with their lying little media pig farting comfort into their hungry little Id&#39;s.
Our ingenuity and grasp of human nature, ours and theirs is the ONLY thing that can aver the class war you sense beginning.

Here is where your spirituality comes into use. Can you understand that their young children are just as innocent and deserving of life as yours are? Can you accept that the love known by both you, and them for the children is equal? Can it be assumed that the equality CAN convert to sacrifices and that THEY have much more to sacrifice in the way of material power than we do?///

redstar2000:
The French "Popular Front" government in the 1930s used it. Allende in Chile did also. And there are other examples.

It never works. If the ruling class wants to adopt fascist methods of repression, they&#39;ll simply do so...and no amount of servile ass-kissing on our part will make any difference at all./////
I do not kiss their ass, I understand it and I use that understanding to shame them if they cannot be at least a human animal and admit that life is about love, the love we have for our descendants that allows us to make sacrifices that protect them./////

redstar2000:
Indeed, the more deferential we act towards the ruling class, the more arrogant and repressive they are likely to become. If they think they&#39;re "winning", that&#39;s all the more reason for them to grab even more.////
You may be right but something tells me that you read the fear that they feel. One thing is for certain; if we assume that your scenario IS the case we will not be able to avoid the conflict you seem to accept; whereas the scenario I suspect lurks in the unconscious of all of us is that this is the last time around for the bullshit so altogether NEW options are possible, and if indeed you are right, the conflict can still be engaged without any loss of force on our side.////

redstar2000:
It&#39;s not as if they were "fundamentally decent people", after all&#33;///
I think what I point at is that ANY absolute we or them try to apply to each other is going to be wrong and to take action on it, at this time is serious mistake.

[redstar2000]

It takes the sense to know the ideal and compare that to what our neglect and how the system mentality has degraded the reality we know. Are you aware of the meanings of the Magna Carta?

It&#39;s been known since the days of the historian Charles Beard in the early part of the 20th century that the U.S. constitution was nothing more than a bargain struck among the wealthy on the division of power between them...and a common agreement to keep any substantive power out of the hands of the people.

The most democratic constitution of those early days was that of the State of Pennsylvania...but it did not survive, of course.

The "Magna Carta" -- or "great charter" -- was another division of power among the elite. As I recall, it set forth certain "rights" of the nobility that the king was "bound" not to trespass.

It was followed by civil war, was it not?


The place has a secret history the colonizing forces kept hidden. That secret was created by the Indigenous spiritual people to help white people deal with the past that religion hidden from them.(I&#39;m white and KNOW that hidden truth).

You are starting to sound weird. I don&#39;t understand what you&#39;re talking about here. What "secret history"?


Are you aware of what the number 22 signifies to the secret societies that created the structure of the system that oppresses us?

No...actually I don&#39;t "believe" in "secret societies".

Not that they don&#39;t exist...but that they don&#39;t run anything of any significance. Opus Dei is a "secret society" (sort of) and operates "behind the scenes" to promote clerical fascism. But their main appeal is to reactionary generals in Central and South America...and when the generals are overthrown, their "power" goes with it.


What, you didn&#39;t love your mother, your father, you don&#39;t love your children?

Are those "conservative values"?

Well, doesn&#39;t really matter. It&#39;s certainly possible that I loved my mother when I was a small child. But my father was a total asshole for as far back as I can remember...had we lived in Germany, he would have been a Nazi, an enthusiastic Nazi.

I don&#39;t have any children.


The right has held "family values" as sacred since before I can remember.

Not really...and only certain family values at that. For one thing, they don&#39;t raise their own kids; they hire people to do that. If there&#39;s a "family value" they hold "dear", paternal authority is probably it.

It would be hypocritical for me, in any event, to challenge conservatives on the grounds that they were "undermining" the traditional family. They probably are...but I think it&#39;s an institution that needs to be undermined.

From what I&#39;ve seen, it&#39;s mostly a formula for human misery. There are exceptions (there are almost always exceptions to every straightforward statement)...but, in general, it looks pretty bad. Women and children really deserve better.


...we, the public as a group, have become indolent, ignorant, neglectful, confused and allowed the disgusting freak comic pimp in the corner, the TV, to teach our children about life.

Well, I don&#39;t own a dummyvision set...and haven&#39;t since around 1985.

But I think you should understand that the reason many working class people let the dummyvision raise their kids is because they can&#39;t do it themselves...not and work two full-time jobs or more.

Only if you&#39;re unemployed--and desperately poor--do you get to spend a decent amount of time with your kids.


Yes. In Europe the secret societies expanded and engulfed whole segments of society as autonomous anarchical components competing with each other over the people for control.

This is weirdness, again. Are you suggesting that the Petrograd police who defended the Czar were members of a "secret society"?

Isn&#39;t it simpler to explain their behavior simply in terms of their reactionary ideology? Not to mention their real fear about what would happen to them if the autocracy was successfully overthrown...


History does not repeat itself endlessly over and over. Often it seems it does. The structure you accurately describe has run the world into the dirt. They have no way out. They see it as an "us or them" situation. If we allow that mentality to dominate then their power will enslave us completely.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. That is, they do see it as "us or them". If we also learn to see it as "us or them", why should we not overthrow "them"?

Where is it written that "they" must win?


Our ingenuity and grasp of human nature, ours and theirs, is the ONLY thing that can avert the class war you sense beginning.

But, you see, I don&#39;t want to "avert it"...I want to raise a storm of rebellion like the world has never seen&#33;

I want to crush the old ruling class and all its lackeys.

I want to bring forth a global proletarian revolution and a global communist society.

Something tells me that this prospect doesn&#39;t exactly have the same appeal for you as it does for me.


Can you understand that their young children are just as innocent and deserving of life as yours are?

How young? At what age do ruling class kids grasp the essential idea that they were "born to rule"?

I know from personal observation that ruling class teenagers are marked with a pronounced sense of their own innate "superiority".

How old are they when that lesson first "penetrates"?


...whereas the scenario I suspect lurks in the unconscious of all of us is that this is the last time around for the bullshit so altogether NEW options are possible...

Last time around? You mean you expect humans to go extinct in the fairly near future--unless "new options" are found?

You could be right, of course, though I think it is a "low probability" outcome.

But frankly, I have no idea of what such "new options" could possibly consist of. I don&#39;t think there is any conceivable appeal that would make any difference in their outlook.

If it looks like the planet is dying, they&#39;ll simply move to space colonies--large artificial satellites with their own eco-systems.

It&#39;s not as if they give a rat&#39;s ass for the poor bastards left behind.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Rasta Sapian]

the revolution will come like a wave of clean water to wash away the burning fire of facism and corruption created by greed and impirialism&#33;

Join the army of the 12 monkeys&#33; together we can save the future&#33;

[Comité De Salut Public]

Here are some suggestions:

First we need everyone in jail or prison to band together. All defendants on trial should plead not guilty. If every defendant would do so you know what would happen----- instant gridlock---- the "criminal justice system" would grind to a halt&#33; So yes everyone on trial should go on "prison strike" to get a better deal so spread the word&#33;

Second regarding protests there are some vanguard fighters who are leading the way to liberation in protests and demonstrations all over the world. The black bloc certainly accords to what Lenin termed the "vanguard fighters of the revolution." What they did in Seattle and other cities prove that beyond a shadow of a doubting Thomas. That sort of protest tactic needs to be stepped up. What happened in Miami was a travesty&#33; Very little action and too few people even showed up. I know &#39;cause I was there.

Three. Whatever happened to the general strike?

Four. Pose your own suggestions. Thank you for your pains. :che:

[Christopher]

Christopher wrote: It takes the sense to know the ideal and compare that to what our neglect and how the system mentality has degraded the reality we know. Are you aware of the meanings of the Magna Carta?////

redstar2000 wrote:
It&#39;s been known since the days of the historian Charles Beard in the early part of the 20th century that the U.S. constitution was nothing more than a bargain struck among the wealthy on the division of power between them...and a common agreement to keep any substantive power out of the hands of the people.

The most democratic constitution of those early days was that of the State of Pennsylvania...but it did not survive, of course.

The "Magna Carta" -- or "great charter" -- was another division of power among the elite. As I recall, it set forth certain "rights" of the nobility that the king was "bound" not to trespass.

It was followed by civil war, was it not?////

No, the opposite, more on the charter at the end of this message.

The Constitution of this U.S. republic is a remarkable agreement that, by its amendments, protects the people from trespass by anybody or thing. It is imperfect. U.S. citizens do not understand it therefore cannot uphold it let alone improve it.

I speak in ideals mostly; the reality is in most ways evident, albeit open to interpretation; we know when things work and when they don&#39;t. When they don&#39;t work we are afraid, hungry and cold, at the least.

Probably the most important thing to remember, hardest for me to learn, about this discussion of social agreements, is that an agreement NOT nullified, vacated, abandoned, is still in effect. Media with corporate corruption has mixed language with image in deceptive ways that imply a constant flux of our social agreements with a flux on our CULTURAL agreement. This, with their overt manipulation puts them in control. Our social agreement are not in flux, they are fixed, always waiting for us to use them, improve them. I hope you see where I&#39;m coming from here with a philosophical perspective on the SERVICE a social agreement provides. Verbal ones are gone tomorrow. When many work sincerely to construct a written agreement that is inspiring, the uniformity of the agreement changes our collective unconscious. You may question my use of that here but evidence I&#39;ve gathered over the last few years shows me that FOR CERTAIN, there is far more to life than meets the eye.

At all times a human being must be aware that itself, or we, or any our system of language respects, does not recognize the full extent of our mental experience. Government, war revolution, murder, rape, and fraud are all behaviors. Helping one another to protect future generations and find happiness is also behavior. It is a behavior inspired by unconditional love.

A percentage of our problems that DO NOT stem from behavior, out side of average conditions, is probably just a few percent.

There are generalities in the Constitutions Bill of Rights, the 1st Amendment that indeed describe a sacred structure and provide respect for it with the articles of the Constitution that are "general management" for the principles that create assessment and accountability. Organization does not happen randomly.

What I&#39;m doing here is trying to ground our discussion in a fundament of our behavior that is for the most part invisible, our unconscious mind(s)

If ANY BEHAVIOR is questionable, unconscious factors MUST be evaluated, natural anthropocentric tendencies MUST be countered to have a valid interpretation of the motivational basis for the questionable behavior. I&#39;ve said earlier that we must be careful in the making of MAXIM(s). Since our world is so fucked up with its behaviors and we cannot agree as to why, the possibility that the problem is UNCONSCIOUS must always be considered. Here is why.

One third of each humans temporal life they cannot account for with the other 2 thirds. Sleep.

Your consciously appreciable thoughts are far, far less than one percent of the TOTAL mental event of your life.

The above statements are MAXIM&#39;s, they are absolute and have never changed. What they say is that most of our life, lives are unconscious.

The above is an argument to set the framework for a grand inference that explains unconscious organizations OR secret societies.

A semantical hurdle need to be overcome at this point. Spiritual, psychic, unconscious and secret (as in secret societies), are very very close in their meanings.

If you are willing to go there, clues exist to the origins of the current dilemma and are found in the following excerpts of a translation from the Magna Carta. It ended a war or conflict and a period of great calm and prosperity followed it. The people were threatening the Barons with annihilation if abuses did not cease and accountability created.

(§ 61). In cases, however, where a man was deprived or dispossessed of something without the lawful judgement of his equals by our father King Henry or our brother King Richard, and it remains in our hands or is held by others under our warranty, we shall have respite for the period commonly allowed to Crusaders, unless a lawsuit had been begun, or an inquiry had been made at our order, before we took the Cross as a Crusader. On our return from the Crusade, or if we abandon it, we will at once render justice in full.

Are you okay with the above as a basis to this discussion that seems to be focusing on social agreements?

[redstar2000]

The Constitution of this U.S. republic is a remarkable agreement that, by its amendments, protects the people from trespass by anybody or thing.

No it doesn&#39;t. The second president of the United States--John Adams--nullified the First Amendment while the ink was still damp. Look up the "Alien & Sedition" acts.

Since then, of course, the "constitutional rights" of Americans have been trampled so often that the hard drive on the Che-Lives server is probably not large enough to hold the list.


I speak in ideals mostly...

Yeah, I noticed. I think that approach doesn&#39;t really get you anywhere...you are "de-coupled" from material reality.


Our social agreement[s] are not in flux, they are fixed, always waiting for us to use them, improve them.

Or get rid them entirely, right? That&#39;s the option that appeals to me.


...but evidence I&#39;ve gathered over the last few years shows me that FOR CERTAIN, there is far more to life than meets the eye.

Undoubtedly true...but not very useful. Whatever the limitations of our "conscious mind"--the "me" that does the "thinking" while I am awake and alert--that&#39;s all I have to work with.

Someone can assert that there is an "unconscious mind" or even a "soul" and that it has or they have all these "really interesting properties"...but with what evidence? And to what end?

For example, there&#39;s some pretty good evidence that human minds--conscious ones--"look for patterns" in events and even in observations. Presumably, this trait was useful in an evolutionary sense; successful pattern-spotters had more children than those who lacked the ability.

But that doesn&#39;t tell me anything useful about the pattern that I "think" I&#39;ve just "spotted". Is it "real"? Does it hold up under most circumstances or just a few? Can I "rely" on it?


It is a behavior inspired by unconditional love.

It does not seem to me that any kind of realistic case can be made for "unconditional love". Such a concept would necessitate the existence of "infinite forgiveness"...a trait that I don&#39;t believe has been observed in a single human being, living or dead.

No matter how "much" you love someone, there are deeds and even words that you regard as "unforgivable". People do have different standards about that--and argue about them a great deal. But everyone "draws a line" at something.


Organization does not happen randomly.

Sometimes it does, actually...at least if my (very limited) understanding of chaos theory is correct. Now and then, it seems that order emerges "spontaneously" and "randomly" from chaotic conditions.


What I&#39;m doing here is trying to ground our discussion in a fundament of our behavior that is for the most part invisible, our unconscious mind(s).

How can we discuss the "invisible"? What can we say about the "unconscious" that we are in any position to empirically verify?

And if it&#39;s all speculation...well, why bother?


Are you okay with the above as a basis to this discussion that seems to be focusing on social agreements?

I don&#39;t think so...unless we can ground the discussion on material reality, real evidence, etc. The problem with dining at the "Speculation Café" is that half an hour later, you&#39;re hungry again.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Christopher]

Christopher wrote:
The Constitution of this U.S. republic is a remarkable agreement that, by its amendments, protects the people from trespass by anybody or thing.//////
redstar2000 wrote:
No it doesn&#39;t. The second president of the United States--John Adams--nullified the First Amendment while the ink was still damp. Look up the "Alien & Sedition" acts.//////
I&#39;ve been aware of "Alien & Sedition" acts for some time and cannot see that they impinge upon 1st amendment rights. Then again, the Declaration of Independence inalienable rights. The puny act signed by the fascist Jackson cannot stand in the way of one who invokes that original intent. The way it reads is that the activity has to obstruct lawful activity or be libelious. Those charges would have to be proven. If you allow that to stop you, how much do you believe in what you are doing? How good is your information?
Christopher wrote:
I speak in ideals mostly/////
redstar2000 wrote:
Yeah, I noticed. I think that approach doesn&#39;t really get you anywhere...you are "de-coupled" from material reality./////
Ideals provide guidance, they are used along the way to the destination.
Christopher wrote:
Our social agreement[s] are not in flux, they are fixed, always waiting for us to use them, improve them./////
redstar2000 wrote:
Or get rid them entirely, right? That&#39;s the option that appeals to me./////
You used the term "de-coupled" earlier, consider applying that word to your perspective above. It seems unrealistic and fantasy based.
Christopher wrote:
...but evidence I&#39;ve gathered over the last few years shows me that FOR CERTAIN, there is far more to life than meets the eye. //////
redstar2000 wrote:
Undoubtedly true...but not very useful. Whatever the limitations of our "conscious mind"--the "me" that does the "thinking" while I am awake and alert--that&#39;s all I have to work with./////
redstar2000, It is only useful if you are willing to recognize it exists.

Do you admit that 1 third of your life is your mind, the "you" that was "thinking" cannot ever know what it is doing

[Christopher]

Originally posted by Comité De Salut [email protected] 2 2004, 04:20 PM
Here are some suggestions:

First we need everyone in jail or prison to band together. All defendants on trial should plead not guilty. If every defendant would do so you know what would happen----- instant gridlock---- the "criminal justice system" would grind to a halt&#33; So yes everyone on trial should go on "prison strike" to get a better deal so spread the word&#33;

Second regarding protests there are some vanguard fighters who are leading the way to liberation in protests and demonstrations all over the world. The black bloc certainly accords to what Lenin termed the "vanguard fighters of the revolution." What they did in Seattle and other cities prove that beyond a shadow of a doubting Thomas. That sort of protest tactic needs to be stepped up. What happened in Miami was a travesty&#33; Very little action and too few people even showed up. I know &#39;cause I was there.

Three. Whatever happened to the general strike?

Four. Pose your own suggestions. Thank you for your pains. :che:
I sure like the spirit of this. Maybe if we could CBS to air public service announcements regarding the tactic. Maybe sesame street will teach it to kids.

It will work though and has worked in the past. Today we do not have enough of a coherent culture to utilize the action effectively to grind the system to a halt.

I&#39;ve lost confidence in protests in general. They lack a socially relevant articulation of offense and meaningful curative action. In reality it seems as though the elements protesting have perhaps been inflitrated in ways that make the course of events end with an outcome that disfavors, with regard to image, the intention of the protest. This is then used by media to turn the masses from an understanding of the issue.

The movement becomes sterotyped and easily termed offensive, discounted dissociated and ineffective.

I think the best actions are legal. Lawsuits articulate issues very clearly. If protests were to be at courthouses regarding cases being heard, protests would have a LOT more meaning.

If we are to be reasonable, this course of action has great merit.

[dannie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 05:12 PM
I have never been to a protest, I dont protest as I think there is no point, it doesnt acheive anything.

Mao "political power comes from the barrel of a gun"


I couldnt agree more.
imho is protesting a good thing, it&#39;s naive to thing that it will stop some war or something... but it will show other people that there is a great movement against something, trough that you can sensibilisate or inform the masses about the wrongs in the world

[Christopher]

ComradeRobertRiley,Dec 31 2003, 04:12 PM wrote:
I have never been to a protest, I dont protest as I think there is no point, it doesnt acheive anything./////

I have a very strong sense of elitism in the groups central to the last protests during the war. I wonder about infiltrations of unconscious moles into activists groups. I&#39;ve had furry radical types trying to stop people from walking with me in marches. They could not talk about mind control and became compulsive to denouncing my presentations of facts in small groups before marches.

Hawker wrote:
Amen to that.The only way I&#39;ll support the movement is with words and if that doesn&#39;t work then I&#39;ll have to resort to the gun.////
Excellent, proportioned commitment. Good to see. I&#39;ve developed a way to communicate on BB&#39;s, you are witnessing it, that deals with absolutes, our needs in COMMON. Lets use words together on BB&#39;s to MAKE people think with the information they DO have.

This is an invitation to use words to protect life from [email protected] ////

gawkygeek wrote:
most of the police are the enemy, they are not yet ready to abandon the system they have sworn to protect, and thus, when it all comes down to it, they are the sword and shield of the cooperate world, they are the wall that stops us from spreading our ideals. the police are always the first to quiet us and the first to put down any insurgence what so ever. they are not our true enemy, but they have stood to be counted with it/////

The structure you describe is correct historically. What is happening is that the power elite are not taking care of and respecting the purposes of the people. Law enforcement are not of the elite, they do not live in gated communities, for the most part, cops ARE of the people.
There are intelligent people in law enforcement that love freedom and are not supportive of the structure over them IF the people are making more sense, using reason and law. Think about this. Think about understanding others and agreeing on THE most fundamental levels.

Rastaman,Jan 1 2004, 10:36 AM wrote:
I don&#39;t understand why anyone with a spark of intelligence would want to become a policeman.. They are the pawns of the aristocracy./////

Debora Aro wrote:
The USAF places those who test the lowest on IQ exams in MP positions. It takes a subhuman mentality to want to be a policeman. I once had a Narcotics agent tell me police are the opposite of social workers because as a policeman, you have to assume everyone is guilty, where as a social worker assumes there is good in everyone.////

I could believe MP would be selected this way. In civilian law enforcement such personnel will cause liability. They of course are still there and I&#39;ve seen them used by other officers to deal with difficult situations, the cops in charge turn their back. Corporate interests have robbed us of our culture with media and now control the populations in many ways that create conflictive events between people making it necessary to have redundant and occasionally abusive enforcement.

I believe what makes a cop be a cop it is unconscious programming that is clannish in nature. Religion and the Crusades have made us instinctually afraid of discussing the compulsive forms of hypnosis that cause states of somnambulism. The fact that psychology has not redundantly investigated abuses is GLARING of denial from academia. Denial of our mind and its potentials.