Neo-Nazi march through Jewish area of Berlin.

[Reuben]

This saturday Neo-Nazis marched through the Jewish area of Berlin in a protest relating to a holocaust exhebition.

The German government, who a few years ago, banned a march comemorating Rosa Luxemborg and Karl Leibnecht, went as far as using the qord "provocative to describe neo-nazis marching through the Jewish quarter of Berlin, though allowed this march to go ahead. There were two counter demonstation which involved fightsbetween the police and German anti-nazis attempting to stop the Fascist demonstration. The Nazis had to divert the route they were taking.

Hearing about something such as this, made me feel, at an emmotional level at least, that it was legitimate to go out and attack organized fascists.

Whado others think?

[Capitalist]

I believe that even Nazis have a right to free speech. Although who really would want to listen to such hatred.

But if Nazis decide to bring their protest into a Jewish Area - they better be ready for some major trouble. They are asking for a fight. This reminds me of British Protesants bring their protest into Catholic areas of Ireland.

It is not a good idea.

If they get their asses kicked, I will NOT be at their side defending their right to free speech.

[RedCeltic]

When demonstrating how the US supports freedom of speach... people often point to a town in Washington where in the seventies we let Neo Nazis march through a Jewish town. Even though the Jews protested it.. the march was allowed... because everyone.. even neo Nazis... reserve the right to freedom of speach.

However, one must wonder if the German Government is being biast here. They are allowing a known agitator march through a section of town occupied by the people they are fundementaly against... yet... they banned a march that was in support of Rosa Luxemborg... who was anti war and pro freedom of speach...

[Capitalist]

I see your point.

Germany has been all 3 - Fascist, Communist, and Democratic.

Only under democracy did the German people have a right to speak whatever they believed.

[CommieBastard]

capitalist, you have said three deeply incorrect statements in this thread:

1. That british protestant march through catholic areas of ireland, which in fact hasn't happened.

2. That Germany has ever been communist, i think you will in fact find that it has been stalinist, something distinctly different in nature to communism, in that it is a type of fascism.

3. That Germany has ever been Democratic. You don't seriously beleive any of these so-called 'liberal democracies' are actually democratic do you? or even liberal for that matter?

[Capitalist]

My previous statement did not read right.

I see your point - meaning that it is unfair to let Fascist demonstrate but not communists.

Under a democratic system, you are basically saying that everyone should have a right to speak and it is not fair that the communists are banned from marching, yet the fascist are not banned.

Because under a democratic system everyone should have the right to speak - even communists.

I agree. And I agree that Nazis are the lowest form of humans.

[Capitalist]

Funny how everyone keeps saying that.

China is no longer communist it is now fascist.

Or the USSR became fascist after Stalin.

or even a select few that say that Fidel Castro is a dictator using communism has a mask for his power.

Funny how all these communist nations become fascist after time.

[RedCeltic]

Well.... we in the Socialist Party USA are fighting for Democracy and Socialism... (which is why we call ourselves democratic socialists) and.... two things lacking in the US....

We have mild socialist reforms via the New Deal... however we have nothing close to a democracy.

And personaly I don't believe in Communism... as thus far communists have set up athoriterian states.

[MadMarx]

Well, comrades,
I myself live in Germany, I would have joined the march against the nazi protest, unfortunately I still go to school, so I did not find the time to drive to the capital. The point I want toname is this: While the Nazis marched peacefully throught the streets of Berlin, socialists and autonoms set fires and threw stones and destroyed the police-cars...no wonder that the leftists(like me) are not very popular in the biggest part of the F.R.G.. Why didn't we find a peacful way to demonstrate against the truth-denying-nazis?

[Moskitto]

Capitalist you're right, every year the Orange Order marches through catholic estates and say that it's their "traditional route." The fact is that 20 years the "traditional route" went through a different estate which at the time was catholic.

Neo-Nazis are pretty dumb. If you've ever been to the website of the WCOTC they say some pretty dumb things.

"These are some of the 100 million white men who died in Russia by the Jew Trotsky from 1920-1940"

This statement falls apart very quickly.

1. Trotsky wasn't a jew (I believe.)

2. Trotsky was living in exile most of the time mentioned.

3. The real Nazis saw the Russian peoples as Slaves (Slavic peoples are the origin of the word slave) and not white people.

4. The real leader of Russia at that time killed Jews (oops that's a hoax.)

5. Ask any Historian about the 100 Million figure and they'll laugh, Most would say 40-60 million.

"The Holocaust is a big hoax to get money to Israel"

There's something that all Holocausr deniers seem to forget. They seem to forget that it wasn't about 6 million jews who were reported dead, there's also the 5 million slavs, 2 million gypsies, and countless numbers of homosexuals, communists, social democrats. And you know what, these people were all there when Jews were dying. Now then, why would these groups who had no connection with the jews want to start a big hoax?

"Black people are a species of human close to monkeys"

explain then why is that at the olympic track events most winners are black? Surely teams whould be entering monkeys as it's so clear that being closer to monkeys make you run faster?

there's loads more dumb stuff they say, just make sure you educate people on common sense and their ideas shouldn't spread.


And on the whole communism-democracy-fascist thing. I support communism as an economic system (because it technically is) but democracy as a political system. Which means I support council communism.

But having said that if you notice the difference between RedCeltic (socialist) and Kamo (communist) I am somewhere between the two.

[Freiheit]

berlin has social democratic mayor, and they even talked
about a red-red coalition with the pds (communists) and
then they allow a nazi-protest, that is really bad and
makes my sad and upset.
nazis mustnt be allowed to protest, and for sure not in
jewish part of the town, because they dont wanna show
their opinion, they just wanna provocate and make ppl
sad, angray and scarred.
a message like the nazis preach is so bad, they would
never have my permission for free speech. somewhere
is a border, if you talk about killing ppl, because they are
different, you mustnt be allowed to have free speech
and protests.

[Kez]

I am almost 90% sure that the communists are in power in Berlin?
am i mistaken?

[Drifter]

poland has gone back to socialist government

[RedCeltic]

Actually Moskitto, I don't know of any group that would consider themselves purly "Council Communist"... perhaps Socialist Action is closest to that...

I admit that I agree to the ideas of Council communism in setting up "Soviets"... basicly the democratic rule of industry by the workers. That's something that many "Anti-stalinist" communist parties lean on in some way.

Many people in the Party I belong to call themselves "Anti Communist" I however don't, as I lean on many teachings from communists myself, (such as lenin & Luxemberg who's teachings make up council Communism) and would much rather call myself, "Anti-Stalinist."

[RedCeltic]

Also... One has to realise that catagorising one's self can be a nucance when one goes by their own way of thinking, and doesn't wholy suscribe to the teachings and philosophies of any set individuals, or party.

In hopes to better define what I suscribe to... I suppose you could say I'm somewhere between "Reform Communism" and "Democratic Socialism" which... looking in the "Red Encyclopedia" would be defined as "Democratic Marxism"... This is probobly as good of a defenition of what I believe in (at the moment anyway) as your going to get here....


DEMOCRATIC MARXISM: Recent form of Marxism which is very close in nature to Democratic Socialism and Reform Communism. Democratic Marxists feel that the ideas of Marx and Engels cannot be achieved in the climate of a dictatorship. They feel that Marx was right in areas of class struggle and dialectal materialism, but that his "dictatorship of the proletariat" was taken completely out of context by Lenin and should not be used in Marxist governmental models (though they sometimes agree with Lenin in other regards, including his analysis of imperialism). Big names in the area of Democratic Marxism include Salvador Allende, Michael Harrington, and Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci. In the US, the largest Democratic Marxist movement is probably the Post-Stalinist Committees of Correspondence and the publishing group Monthly Review Press. The Socialist Party USA also includes Democratic Marxist ideas in their platform.

[libereco]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 8:05 am on Dec. 4, 2001
I am almost 90% sure that the communists are in power in Berlin?
am i mistaken?


yes you are.
They had good results in the last election there, i forgot the exact numbers.
But they arn't in power but a coalition of Social Democrats, Green Party and the Liberals if I'm not mistaken.

but then again I don't read the newspaper..

[CommieBastard]

Capitalist, it is not funny how so many 'communist' countries have been dictatorships and fascistic. It is quite obvious why this is. It is because fascists know they can use the name of communism to appeal to the masses to get themselves into power.

One thing many people seem to be forgetting is that the ultimate aim of communism and marxism is in fact democracy. Something not present in the world at all. Something which has reached it's pinnacle so far in Cuba...
Moskitto, you say you support communism as an economic policy and democracy as a political one? so what you've essentially said is you support communism in all areas...
Council Communism, however, is not very democratic. It is, admittedly, democratic on a grass roots low down level of local governance, however, on overall policy, there is little democracy, as there is little interaction with everyone else. Nor, is it in fact, purely communist economically, as those born into resource rich areas are favoured.

And RC, interesting how that definition says democratic marxism is a recent thing when, in fact, it lists one of it's famous examples as gramsci. Gramsci made his biggest contributions to marxist philosophy in the 20's, hardly very recent.

I would say most communists i know support a democratic move from the very beggining of revolutionary reforms, excluding the idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat, or interprating it to mean that the proletariat dictates democratically. And even those who include such a dictatorship still include the ultimate aim of democracy. The Stalinists who claim that the dicatatorship should be the ultimate aim are not communists, and are not comrades of mine.

And i would not describe kamo as a true communist, moskitto, because he supports stalin...

[RedCeltic]

That's a very good point there CB... I imagine that the "Red Encyclopedia" ment recent to the US... since all of it's content has to do with the US... however your correct, it's not a new concept.

Anyway... I fall somewhere in that range of Democratic Socialist - Democratic Communist-Democratic Marxist... they are all pigon holes, catagorising people on other's beliefs... well I, like most people here, follow my own beliefs, while lean on a variety of individuals.


What I don't agree with is stalinists or people who feal the need to apoligise for Stalin. Stalin was a fascist dictator. Your right CB, he was not a commie, but a power hungery tyranical basterd.

I don't agree with Worker's World Party because they are a Stalinist group. Even though, they are fairly active in my area, and I use their news sources frequently.



(Edited by RedCeltic at 1:05 pm on Dec. 4, 2001)

[Moskitto]

I don't actually know where I lie but reading the definations from Red Encyclopeadea I would have to describe myself as somewhere between council communist and democratic socialist. But I don't know why I said "That means I support council communism." It might have just been me in free flow from that anti-nazi post.

Speaking of Stalin, Lenin and Co. There's loads of dumb things i've heard people say and think (i'm telepathic :), No wait i'm in fantasy mode again) Like people saying Animal farm is anti-socialist, pro-capitalist when it was written by a socialist, and Snowball (Trotsky) is portrayed in a good light which he wasn't in real life.
Or there was a conversation someone had with me today.

Them "Are you a member of the communist club"
Me "Which one"
Them "The biggest one"
Me "What's your definition of a communist club" (use their definition and you can't loose)
Them "A bunch of people who like Stalin"
Me (Instantly) "NO, there's someone on an online forum i'm on though who makes some pro-Stalin comments and annoys people a bit"

Why don't people get it that if you asked any socialist if they like Stalin they'd say no and infact most communists would give a fairly mixed opinion of him or oppose him?

I thought Lenin believed in a strong central government though.

P.S. I don't believe that the councils should be separated from each other because they wouldn't distribute resources very well (eg. Bedfordshire would have a surplus of sprouts while having power blackouts.) Or it could be organized the same way as worker co-operatives but that would favour people who work in certain jobs and not really solve very much.

[CommieBastard]

Ewven if there was a very good distriburtion network, people in one council with rich resources would benefit more, because that council would have more power to trade along the distribution networks with other councils for desirable goods and resources...

but anyway, though i disagree with this ideology, i don't despise it like i despise stalinism or nationalism...
i would say it has a good intent, but is misguided... but like all misguided things, the errors can be corrected if they are properly identified and now im rambling like an ass so i'll shut up...

[Rob]

Trotsky was actually jewish. His real name was Lev Davidovich Bronstein. He was raised in a Ukranian Jewish household.

[Guest]

Everybody say "FUCK NAZI'S"

[RedCeltic]

I thought I heard he was Jewish too... but wasn't sure on that....

Also, CB... you said, " I would say most communists i know support a democratic move from the very beggining of revolutionary reforms, excluding the idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat, or interprating it to mean that the proletariat dictates democratically. "

I have recently been talking to a friend who is a member of the Communist Party USA, who said that while the party is "Reform Communist" at the core, the party included many various socialists, communists, and non socialist activists. that one doesn't have to be a communist to join the fight against capitalism, and fight for equality.

Also, my friend told me that the party believes in fighting for a restoration, and 'extension' of democracy.

It suppose I had the wrong Idea about them, and have long equaited them as being the same as Worker's World Party, which is a Stalinist party.

[Moskitto]

yeah I've heard about many anti-capitalists who aren't socialists. All they believe in is a change in the system which makes capitalism fair to everyone.

p.s. I think anarchy is misguided but it's a matter of personal opinion.

[libereco]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 8:05 am on Dec. 4, 2001
I am almost 90% sure that the communists are in power in Berlin?
am i mistaken?


i take back what i said before...it seems they might be hooking up with the social democrats afterall.
[/quote]

[Edelweiss]

Update on Berlin elections: The coalition negotiations of Social Democrats, Greens and (neo-)liberals failed after the liberals didn't want to accept tax increments. (Berlin is nearly bancrot)
The Social Democrats now are in coalition negotiations with the reform-communists of the PDS. It's very likely that the negotiations now will succeed.
Anyway, like a friend yesterday said to me: There are no good goverments in capitalsm...