A question for Communists

[j.guevara]

I'll admit I don't have a very strong understanding of Communism/Marxism but from what I've read there are some things I do not understand or perhaps I have simply misunderstood some things. Why does Communist society seem to be so anti-democratic( if this observation is even correct, why is that neccesary) And is it really neccesary to abolish religion. I myself am an atheist and I hate organized religion but i can't understand that approach to gaining peoples acceptance to your policies. To take their beliefs and superstitions you will turn them off from the good, ideal aspects of your philosophies.

[Rastaman]

religion can say the opposite of the state. Look at all those religious wars in the middle ages and look at the middle east.. messed huh?

[ComradeRobertRiley]

yes religion is the caurse of the majority of war and as communists we want to live in peace and harmony, we do not want other political parties like in democratic countries because it could lead to a return to capitalism/exploitation/greed/war

[Rastaman]

thats right...we are all for peace.. but so are you right?

[Misodoctakleidist]

that's wrong, we allow other political parties it's just that they'd never be capable of gaining support.

Religion is also tolerated but it just wouldn't exist because there'd be no need for it, religion as marx says is a response to alienation and a communist society would put the means of production in the hands of the wokers thus eliminating alienation. The reason people on this forum are so opposed to religion is because it opresses the working class, it's a idealogical tool of the bougoirsie which justifies their position in society, it also discourages revolution (with the threat of hell for defying god's will, the order of society being god's will) and promises a better life in hevan so they are more likely to put up with a poor life on earth. Marx described religion as the opium of the people.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I hate religion, there is no god, there is no afterlife, there is no heaven, when you die its over, finished, the end. :angry:

[YKTMX]

I'll admit I don't have a very strong understanding of Communism/Marxism but from what I've read there are some things I do not understand or perhaps I have simply misunderstood some things. Why does Communist society seem to be so anti-democratic( if this observation is even correct, why is that neccesary)


Some Marxists would argue that the states you mean (USSR, China, Cuba etc) were not in fact Communist but State Capitalist. There is plenty of reading to be done on the subject. If you are unfamiliar with Tony Cliffs work you should look for his work online or in a decent bookstore. He explained the idea of statw capitalism in the old Soviet bloc better than anybody ever has.

[Pete]

Some Marxists would argue that the states you mean (USSR, China, Cuba etc) were not in fact Communist

And many, such as myself, must remind people that communism is a stateless classless society, thus any nation/country/state/nationstate/whatever you want to label it is not communist, but could be socialist.

[Rastaman]

the perfect world be 1 big state.. so its stupid to allow other parties...

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 04:51 PM
the perfect world be 1 big state.. so its stupid to allow other parties...
well then you're not a communist, as crazy pete said communism is stateless. Also to elaborate on YouKnowTheyMurderedX's point, i don't think any marxists would claim that those countries were communist although some believe they were in the socialist transition period.

[YKTMX]

OK, I accept that. I should have said socialist. Nobody on the left genuinely felt they were Communist for the reasons outlined.

[Rastaman]

how do you propose governing the world when all are communist?

[Bolshevika]

Rastaman is not entirely wrong. Communism is more like little states rather than 1 big state, but it is not the completely stateless society you guys suggest.

It is outlined that under Communism class struggle has come to an end and the central government, the tool of the proletariat, simply dissolves away. The replacement of the central government however, is simply smaller versions of "administrative force", in which a more direct form of democracy is formed (because these small governments will be allowed to look over smaller populations, this form of democracy is efficient). So in reality even under communism there will be people watching over societies interests.

I agree with Rastaman in the sense that until imperialism and other foreign contradictions are crushed, the farthest we can go is socialism.

j.Guevara

The governments of the past based on the works of Karl Marx, Engels, Vladimir Lenin, and JV Stalin still had democracy. However, they did not have the bourgeois form of democracy, so of course the bourgeois when they hear about proletarian democracy scream "DICTATORSHIP". Yes, it is a dictatorship, a dictatorship of the working people over the bourgeois, where the working peoples interests are put before the bourgeois's.

What we had in the USSR, China, Cuba, DPRK, etc is republic style democracy. A much more direct and efficient form of democracy.

Religion is a tool of exploitation, so it must go.

[Rastaman]

so like U$A (one big country devided into little things) without the rich screwing things up?

[Monty Cantsin]

i have to say that organized religion has to go. i dont think theres ever been a communist soceity and it should be democratic.

[Rastaman]

the problem is the ammount of people.. a communist society and a real democracy doesnt work with more than 1000 people

[Hate Is Art]

Demarchy on Anarchy I believe are what a perfect society would look like.

RastaMan I agree on that and the other problem with democracy is people often don't really know what they are voting for, so how can it ever really work?

[BOZG]

Why does Communist society seem to be so anti-democratic

For starters, as comrades have pointed out, there has never been a communist society so there's no evidence to say that communism is anti-democratic. In theory though, communism is the most democratic form of society because it encourages decisions to be made among local groups and communities to decide how their societies are run, instead of coming from some politicians who most of us will never see. Elected officials in a communist society are also completely accountable to those they represent, that is that they must listen to the opinions of the people and implement or else face being immediately re-called. To understand democracy in a communist society, you should search for information of "Direct Democracy" (as opposed to bourgeois/parliamentary democracy).


As for the religious question, most people here and most people on the left respect peoples right to have a belief in God, while most likely opposing it themselves. The problem is with organised religion as it tries to control what people think and believe rather than let them search for their own truth. In reality for a communist society to have been established, peoples consciousness and entire mindframes and outlooks would have changed and we'd hope that through that change, people would realise the irrationality of religion and of believing in non-materialist beings.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 04:41 PM
The reason people on this forum are so opposed to religion is because it opresses the working class, it's a idealogical tool of the bougoirsie which justifies their position in society, it also discourages revolution (with the threat of hell for defying god's will, the order of society being god's will) and promises a better life in hevan so they are more likely to put up with a poor life on earth. Marx described religion as the opium of the people.
If religion oppresses the poor why the the catholic chruch influence so much the guerillas and helped them. ANd in many cases catholic priest where the starters or the true leaders of thos guerilla movements.
So that kind of contradicts what you say right.

[The Feral Underclass]

j.guevara

For a start don't read Tony Cliff you're not going to learn anything useful except how to worhsip Trotsky. If
you want to learn about Communism/Marxism the best place to start is some book like "Introducing Marxism", then try reading the Communist Manifesto. For in depth theory such as dialectics and Dialectical Materialism which are important to marxist theory just type them into google. You will find foundation and advanced reading on the subjects. If you can handle that try reading the "German Ideology."

The problem that then comes is that there is so many variations of communism from anarchist-communism to Leninism etc that you just have to move in what ever direction you feel more comfortable with. If anarchism sounds good try "Fugitive Writings" essays by Peter Kropotikin or the "ABC of Anarchism" by Alexander Berkman, if Leninism is your cup of tea then try reading "State and Revolution" among others which I am sure people on this board would be more than happy to refer you to. If you just want to have varied answers to specific questions from the entire spectrum of communism just ask on this board and you shall get them.

However I say again, do not read Tony Cliff. I bought a book "Trotskyism after Trotsky" talk about bum sucking, it made me sick.


Why does Communist society seem to be so anti-democratic( if this observation is even correct, why is that neccesary)

The observation isnt correct. Communism has never, as a theory, advocated authotarianism. Communism is a social theory which advocates no state, no centralised government, no hierarchy, with people working to their abilities and recieving according to their needs. People would work in socially necessary work for a certain amount of hours a week and recieve all that they needefd from society in return, so freeing up human activity to pursue other things. That is what Marx talked about when he imagined communism.

Marx however advocated that there had to be a transitional stage from capitalism to communism. Which he described as socialism. This the authotarianism you are referring too. None of the countries that have entertained a revolution have ever been able to get passed the first stage. In fact in every single case it has reverted to a brutal dictatoship and then gone full cycle to capitalism again. In my opinion the theory does not work and in fact has failed over and over again.

When you read in your history books and here historians talk about the communist countries ie china, cuba, vietnam, they are lying. None of these countries were remotly communist and probably had not intention in becoming communist. The true and real communist theory has been distorted and bastardized throughout 20th century history thanks to the likes of Stalin.

Communism is ultra-democratic because it envolves everyone in the decision making process. There is no government to give out orders or hierarchies to implement them. The world is broken into collectives which deal with issues together. They discuss them and they vote on them, taking the nexessary action as a unit rather than as followers or subjects to a state etc.


And is it really neccesary to abolish religion.

Some would argue yes it was. Others, such as myself would argue that religion would become unecessary at the point of a revolution, during an after and would wither awat by itself. The reasons for this are outlined in this essay by Alan Woods entitled 'Marxism and Religion' Marxism and Religion (http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marxism_and_religion.html)


I hate organized religion

This is where you have to seperate personal belief and organized religion. Personal beliefs, not matter how misguided are personal. However organized religion such as the Vatican advocated repressive and draconian mesures against people. They force people to accept things they otherwise may not accept ie anti abortion and homohopbia. These things should be faught against by force if necessary because they mean to suppress the working class and subjugate them to ideals, beliefs and gods which ultimatly are to right and do not exist.


To take their beliefs and superstitions you will turn them off from the good, ideal aspects of your philosophies.

Hopefully you read the essay so you will understand what beliefs in gods are. Nothing more than necessity created by the conditions we live in. Once those conditions are changed people will forget about gods and superstitions because they see that they can build a better society for themselves.

[j.guevara]

thanks for your responces and links. I understand and agree with your condemnations of religion but I have doubts that the masses will embrace a godless state and base their lives on work. I also have doubts that a "proletariat dictatorship" will be as benevolent as you hope. I think it is dangerous to put so much power in the hands of the state. Atleast thats were my heads at at this point in time, ofcourse it is subject to change with the growth of my understanding of communism.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 04:02 PM
And is it really neccesary to abolish religion. I myself am an atheist and I hate organized religion but i can't understand that approach to gaining peoples acceptance to your policies. To take their beliefs and superstitions you will turn them off from the good, ideal aspects of your philosophies.
Religions are shit. They have been used by the ruling classes for thousands for years and their basic idea was explaining everything in this world. However, they would promise "heaven" if you follow your rulers, and they will tell you that you will go to "hell" if you go against the beliefs of your king. Think about how rich the Christianism is, with their huge golden palaces. T
Think about how many benefits the clergy had over the normal people. Think about that now: the monks eat for free! They don't work! They spread lies! I don't see what's wrong of taking out people's "belief and supersititions", especially if we consider that they can't be justified in any rational way. Religious people is brainwashed. You have to show them that.

Try anarchism, you will like it.

[j.guevara]

yea i fell like i am leaning towards anarchism. My only problem with abolishing religion is it seems unfair to people. Why not just inject some real dialogue about the history of religion and how its been used into the education system and let the peoplesee for themselves.

[Pete]

Religion will destroy itself. Burdened in lies, halftruth, and oppression it will go with government capitalism and corporation as a matter of simple thought.

[Bradyman]

yea i fell like i am leaning towards anarchism. My only problem with abolishing religion is it seems unfair to people. Why not just inject some real dialogue about the history of religion and how its been used into the education system and let the peoplesee for themselves.

Sure, they can believe whatever they want. But it's completely unnecessary to spend working hours rebuilding churches or constructing large cathedrals when there are homeless people. Let religion rely on the individual, organized religion must go.