Bill Maher

[Jason]

We have discussed Jon Stewart, But does anyone like or dislike Bill Maher? His views are in line with Jon Stewart, mainstream liberal, so not much different.

[l'Enfermé]

Stewart is funny. Maher is just a douchebag.

[Art Vandelay]

I'll watch real time every now and then, but he's like the liberal version of Bill O'Reily.

[RadioRaheem84]

Maher is probably the posterboy for liberal douche on a grand scale. I mean he makes Stewart, Cenk from TYT and any other liberal pundits seem like a humble monks by comparison.

The guy can turn anyone into a rabid right wing conservative with his absolute distaste for the common man. I mean I think Ayn Rand had more empathy in her bones for common people. Maher doesn't have a shred of human decency in his body much less a high opinion of workers.

I like his show because he has good guests on and can have moments of clarity and I dig his razor sharp critique of the right wing but my god when he starts ranting about how stupid American people are he makes me want to vomit.

He is also an ardent Zionist and admits he gave Jews a pass in his god awful Religious documentary because he thinks Israel is a beacon of hope in the Middle East. So not only is he dim on mid east politics but he's also ignorant of the religious fundamentalism that the people of Israel are struggling against.

So yes, this man is more smug that Christopher Hitchens if you can believe that! He is the very reason why so many Americans hate liberals and think of them as elitist pricks.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I love Maher - he's awesome. All these liberal comedians like Maher or Stewart are funny.

[#FF0000]

Maher says some good stuff every so often. When he's wrong, though, he's extremely wrong.

He's pretty awful.

[Art Vandelay]

Maher is probably the posterboy for liberal douche on a grand scale. I mean he makes Stewart, Cenk from TYT and any other liberal pundits seem like a humble monks by comparison.

The guy can turn anyone into a rabid right wing conservative with his absolute distaste for the common man. I mean I think Ayn Rand had more empathy in her bones for common people. Maher doesn't have a shred of human decency in his body much less a high opinion of workers.

I like his show because he has good guests on and can have moments of clarity and I dig his razor sharp critique of the right wing but my god when he starts ranting about how stupid American people are he makes me want to vomit.

He is also an ardent Zionist and admits he gave Jews a pass in his god awful Religious documentary because he thinks Israel is a beacon of hope in the Middle East. So not only is he dim on mid east politics but he's also ignorant of the religious fundamentalism that the people of Israel are struggling against.

So yes, this man is more smug that Christopher Hitchens if you can believe that! He is the very reason why so many Americans hate liberals and think of them as elitist pricks.

At least Hitch, while having many faults, was intelligent. Maher just spouts rhetoric.

[RadioRaheem84]

At least Hitch, while having many faults, was intelligent. Maher just spouts rhetoric.

Hitchens was a brilliant man but also intentionally intellectually dishonest, which made most of his career a giant fraud.

[Art Vandelay]

Hitchens was a brilliant man but also intentionally intellectually dishonest, which made most of his career a giant fraud.

Can you elaborate on 'intentionally intellectually dishonest'? I'm quite fond of the man despite his shitty politics. He's was a pretty big piece in my intellectual development. Before philosophy or politics, I was primarily interested in religion. He is probably the best polemicist that I have ever seen.

[RadioRaheem84]

Can you elaborate on 'intentionally intellectually dishonest'? I'm quite fond of the man despite his shitty politics. He's was a pretty big piece in my intellectual development. Before philosophy or politics, I was primarily interested in religion. He is probably the best polemicist that I have ever seen.

Alex Cockburn is proly the best source on this. But I remember watching his older videos in which he knew the difference between liberal and leftist and understood that in American these two labels were always being conflated. He even described liberals as being dangerous compromisers not to be trusted. He knew this and when he was a darling of the media he was himself conflating the two several times making it seem like the "left" was weak on "totalitarianism".

He basically became a pundit.

[Art Vandelay]

Alex Cockburn is proly the best source on this. But I remember watching his older videos in which he knew the difference between liberal and leftist and understood that in American these two labels were always being conflated. He even described liberals as being dangerous compromisers not to be trusted. He knew this and when he was a darling of the media he was himself conflating the two several times making it seem like the "left" was weak on "totalitarianism".

He basically became a pundit.

I remember seeing that video. A lady called into the show and called him a liberal and he responded something like: 'You're being more insulting then you intend by calling me a liberal. Where I am from we consider liberals to be dangerous compromisers. I am a socialist.'

[RedAtheist]

Where should I begin with Bill Maher? Well to start with I think he won some award from the atheist movement when he's not even an atheist. He hasn't done anything for atheism besides make fun of religious fundamentalists, which is not that hard to do. He doesn't have unique insights with regard to religion and hasn't made atheism seem like a viable option for people.

Then there's the segment he did bashing feminism, using all the standard arguments real leftists are used to hearing. Bill Maher is left wing my ass.

[Art Vandelay]

Where should I begin with Bill Maher? Well to start with I think he won some award from the atheist movement when he's not even an atheist. He hasn't done anything for atheism besides make fun of religious fundamentalists, which is not that hard to do. He doesn't have unique insights with regard to religion and hasn't made atheism seem like a viable option for people.

Then there's the segment he did bashing feminism, using all the standard arguments real leftists are used to hearing. Bill Maher is left wing my ass.

How is he not an atheist?

[thethinveil]

I like Hitchen's style and his prose, even though he is often full of himself. But I agree that he was a careerist, an opportunist and by the end of his career, a right winger - with his weird obsession with the Clinton sex scandal and the support of the Iraq war for the reason he didn't like their religion.

Maher, is the same here, while not supporting the war, he makes a positive critique of Islam and characterizes it as essentially violent. I personally don't feel comfortable enough saying what Islam essentially is, because I am neither a part of the community as a member, nor do I know its long history in detail.

Maher is a bad comedian and has very little taste. His stand-up is horrible. It is combination of him not being very talented and coming from the east-coast raunchy 80s misogynist stand-up tradition, a tradition that has gone very wrong (Andrew Dice Clay anyone?).

He is anti-union - mostly because he thinks it protects bad workers(in one case teachers) from being fired - he was formally a libertarian (while on ABC's Politically Incorrect before he was fired). So as a libertarian he was convinced of the wisdom of the free market. It has been interesting to seem him change over the years - and be so snide to people he formerly agreed with.

Oddly Stewart's comedy riffs are too cutesy for me - some comedians try to get by on charm. Jon Stewart is that kind of comic. And he is charming. But I don't find him funny. I still like to watch him for some of his content.

Stewart has described himself as a socialist. His favorite politician is Eugene V. Debs. But I guess we should keep in mind he is largely talking to liberals. He may even be one. My instinct is that he would compromise away alot - you can see this if you watch how tame and lax he is during his interviews (even he jokes about it).

Anyways fun stuff, this is my first post, hello everyone.

[Jason]

Stewart is funny. Maher is just a douchebag.
Why?

Maher comes across as incredibly snobby and elitist. I mean, I did criticize rednecks in the "Politically Correct" thread, but Maher is definitely an annoying anti-redneck. So much so it makes you sympathize with Joe the Plumber. Also, he's the kind of guy that favors PC "for people he likes", but would mock a handicapped conservative :rolleyes:. Finally, another criticism is he resorts to the "Let's get rid of religion" answer to world problems like Harris and Dawkins. But Maher is funny, and sometimes makes good comments.

[Art Vandelay]

Why?

Maher comes across as incredibly snobby and elitist. I mean, I did criticize rednecks in the "Politically Correct" thread, but Maher is definitely an annoying anti-redneck. So much so it makes you sympathize with Joe the Plumber. Finally, another criticism is he resorts to the "Let's get rid of religion" answer to world problems like Harris and Dawkins. But Maher is funny, and sometimes makes good comments.

Nothing will ever make me sympathize with Joe the plumber...

[Jason]

You got to admit Maher overly attacks Palin calling her a bimbo. That kind of aggressive strategy doesn't work, and usually backfires. Because, as I said, Republican propoganda seeks to portray "trendy liberals" as elitist.

Also, he also avidly worships Obama as "God" as do all the other trendy liberals, while excusing the imperalism and other things.

Now don't get me wrong, I like Maher, but he's "just that kind of guy". He turns off working people and drives them toward conservatism. And he makes no secret about it, saying stuff like, "I don't want live in the world of Slingblade etc.. :rolleyes:"

Now a guy on the right wing side that is elitist would be Dennis Miller. His comedy is so snobby, you need a dictionary to understand it.

[RadioRaheem84]

Nothing will ever make me sympathize with Joe the plumber...

A few hours of Mahers worker bashing would....

[Os Cangaceiros]

What liberals (esp Maher) said about Palin was really insulting. The rhetoric was steeped in overt classism, namely that Palin & co. were dumb hicks, and everyone from the quaint little hillbilly area she's from are hicks too. I wouldn't piss on Maher if he were on fire. :ohmy:

[Os Cangaceiros]

Also, his blind Obama worship is ridiculous.

[RadioRaheem84]

Speaking of Hitchens, has anyone else noticed that when people challenged Hitchens via the web, they always had to up their prose? With the exception of Chomsky, everyone else that's tangled with Hitchens always had to write back in a style that mirrored his. As if they're trying to outmatch him in prose and style?

[p0is0n]

Maher and his liberal buddies share their thoughts on socialism:

fz6tWK2_ApQ

"Socialism is about recognizing that there are limits to what the market can do"

ok

[RadioRaheem84]

I cannot access the vid. Gimme the gist, plz. Basically what do Maher and his buddies think of socialism?

[p0is0n]

I cannot access the vid. Gimme the gist, plz. Basically what do Maher and his buddies think of socialism?

It is very short. So I just wrote it down:

"[...] this could be a teaching moment, could it not, for the tea baggers or maybe all of America, who don't understand that socialism doesn't mean we're going to come to your house and make you work on a collective farm.

You know, in Europe socialism is just another political party. And it doesn't mean we're against making a profit, it just means that government takes over certain things, like hospitals, and prisons, and the military, schools, that should not be run for profit. "

*liberal croud applause and cheering*

Other liberal pundit intervenes:

"As a European on the panel, I was going to say, it's actually simpler than that. I think socialism is really about recognizing that there are limits to what the market can do. The market is very useful, at times it works very well, but it doesn't always work."

Make of it what you will... lol

[RadioRaheem84]

So in other words Socialism to Maher, and other liberals, is essentially 'social democracy'.

Liberals think they're so smart yet they do not even know or care to know the difference between socialism and social democracy. They never get it and I doubt they ever will.

I really think it's cus they're invested in business themselves or have a lot friends who are not greedy cappies in their eyes. They're good people conducting good business so there is no need to nationalize their tech upstart or whatnot.

[NGNM85]

Now a guy on the right wing side that is elitist would be Dennis Miller. His comedy is so snobby, you need a dictionary to understand it.

I actually love Dennis Miller's rhetorical style, but I can't even watch his stand up because he's constantly injecting his hard-right politics. It's really too bad.

[Manic Impressive]

So in other words Socialism to Maher, and other liberals, is essentially 'social democracy'.

Liberals think they're so smart yet they do not even know or care to know the difference between socialism and social democracy. They never get it and I doubt they ever will.

I really think it's cus they're invested in business themselves or have a lot friends who are not greedy cappies in their eyes. They're good people conducting good business so there is no need to nationalize their tech upstart or whatnot.

I think it's because the basis of their conception is a crude historical interpretation of anyone who has ever called themselves a socialist. The most prominent and successful socialists are not socialists at all, socialist party (france) Labour party (UK & Scandinavian parties) and so on. Basically these guys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International

[Art Vandelay]

Fuck I can't stand Maher and is stupid crowd. Stop calling the tea party 'teabaggers' it has never been funny. I loved seeing Hitch call his crowd frivolous and flip them off.

[RadioRaheem84]

Fuck I can't stand Maher and is stupid crowd. Stop calling the tea party 'teabaggers' it has never been funny. I loved seeing Hitch call his crowd frivolous and flip them off.

This is true. Most of the audience at Colbert, Stewart and Maher shows are frivolous liberal treny types that are more there to be unique among a sea of "ignorant" masses. It's poking fun at Joe the Plumber rather than engaging him in actual debate. Seems like they're more hell bent on mocking the right for being too stupid or not well versed in liberal rhetoric than actually debating them and engaging them.

I know that right wingers and the public tend to be frustrating as they keep voting against their own interests but they sense something is corrupt in Washington and Wall St. They know and feel it, they just cannot articulate or understand it well. And when a bunch of liberal douche bags rag on them for not being well versed then all people think is well the right wing radio host is right, there is a liberal establishment that thinks I am dumb and wants to control my life. Especially when the liberal douche has this unshakeable idealistic naive self importance and reverence for the government, more so than the right winger does and especially when a liberal democrat is in office.

In most other counties the right wing is openly ridiculing the masses as dumb sheep. There is nothing by contempt and bitterness toward the working people by the right wing in other nations. But in the US the right wing have effectively used right wing "populism" to their advantage and made the liberals look like the elitist douces. And liberals themselves fall right into this trap by playing the "you people are so stupid" game when the American public falls for right wing rhetoric.

[thethinveil]

I failed to mention that I do enjoy his discussion panels, I just prefer he shut his stupid trap.

Also, seeing Maher on Stewart was interesting back in 2008. It was clear Maher sees himself as an ally of the daily show. While Stewart had this look on his face that said, "we are nothing alike."

[Jason]

This is true. Most of the audience at Colbert, Stewart and Maher shows are frivolous liberal treny types that are more there to be unique among a sea of "ignorant" masses. It's poking fun at Joe the Plumber rather than engaging him in actual debate. Seems like they're more hell bent on mocking the right for being too stupid or not well versed in liberal rhetoric than actually debating them and engaging them.

I know that right wingers and the public tend to be frustrating as they keep voting against their own interests but they sense something is corrupt in Washington and Wall St. They know and feel it, they just cannot articulate or understand it well. And when a bunch of liberal douche bags rag on them for not being well versed then all people think is well the right wing radio host is right, there is a liberal establishment that thinks I am dumb and wants to control my life. Especially when the liberal douche has this unshakeable idealistic naive self importance and reverence for the government, more so than the right winger does and especially when a liberal democrat is in office.

In most other counties the right wing is openly ridiculing the masses as dumb sheep. There is nothing by contempt and bitterness toward the working people by the right wing in other nations. But in the US the right wing have effectively used right wing "populism" to their advantage and made the liberals look like the elitist douces. And liberals themselves fall right into this trap by playing the "you people are so stupid" game when the American public falls for right wing rhetoric.


The restricted poster "graffic" has been trying to argue something similar.

[Althusser]

He calls himself a libertarian.

[Yuppie Grinder]

He's an embarrassment to Atheists. So is Chris Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and every other posh, over-educated liberal who's never done a day of real work in their life who look down on common people like they're mentally disabled because they don't trust the government.

[Althusser]

Maher and his liberal buddies share their thoughts on socialism:

fz6tWK2_ApQ

"Socialism is about recognizing that there are limits to what the market can do"

ok

This is truly cringe worthy.

[RadioRaheem84]

The restricted poster "graffic" has been trying to argue something similar.

Highly doubt that. I don't see liberals as the source of our social problems.

[Jason]

Famous Maher Line: "Obama is from a place, I would actually like to visit." As if Hope, Arkansas and Plains, Georgia are stupid places. More elitism :rolleyes:

[Yuppie Grinder]

Maher and his liberal buddies share their thoughts on socialism:

fz6tWK2_ApQ

"Socialism is about recognizing that there are limits to what the market can do"

ok

I fucking hate it when Liberals who have never read any Socialist literature in their life think they're super clever for coming up with nuanced, imaginative ideas like democratic/market/less-extreme socialism.

[GPDP]

I remember liking Maher and thinking he was funny... when I was about 17. Now I can't stand him. Sometimes my dad will put him on, but every time he says something dumb or elitist I have to point out how much of a douchebag he is. I really can't bear to watch him, ESPECIALLY when he starts flaunting around his love of "socialism".

[RadioRaheem84]

Technocratic welfare state / = socialism. It's barely even social democracy from the past era of Olof Palme's Sweden or Old Labour. Those guys would be Bolsheviks to the politics of today.

Hugo Chavez is a real deal social democrat and Maher called him a dictator.

These guys are a joke.

[Jason]

The show "South Park" has also exploited liberal elitism (by attacking it). Unfortunately, bringing people toward right wing libertarianism.

[RedAtheist]

How is he not an atheist?

According to his wikipedia page he said, "I'm not an atheist. There's a really big difference between an atheist and someone who just doesn't believe in religion. Religion to me is a bureaucracy between man and God that I don't need. But I'm not an atheist, no." From his quote I would argue that he thinks there is a God but just doesn't like the institutions. In other words he's perfectly fine with the idea of a powerful man ruling the entire universe without anyone's consent, he just thinks religious organisations are misrepresenting this man.

Here's another thing he said that I object to: "And when I say Westerner, I mean someone who believes in the values that Western people believe in that a lot of the Muslim world does not. Like separation of church and state. Like equality of the sexes. Like respect for minorities, free elections, free speech, freedom to gather."

Fancy that, a proud opponent of "political correctness" claiming to support "equality between the sexes" and "respect for minorities". I guess we're meant to thank him for merely ridiculing the supporters of women's rights rather than throwing acid in their faces.

In reality the West does not believe in these things. It is merely less brutal/violent in its strong opposition to these things. According to the West, women either need to shut up and obey their husbands or starve themselves so that they can be the ideal sex objects. According to the West, minority groups deserve less pay, less control over their land/resources and are "invading" white countries simply because they move to them. Other cultures might be oppressive in their own right, but this doesn't let 'the West' off the hook.

[Yazman]

I like Maher & Stewart both. I disagree with them a lot but who cares? They're liberals, you can't expect to agree with them on every little issue. They provide some good criticism and mainly, some great humour, especially from Maher's criticism of religion. While their liberal stuff pisses me off sometimes I still like them. Also, it helps that I'm not elitist enough to reject them as comedians because of a few things I disagree with them on (even if some of those are major things).

Also, I just want to say - the whole "oh my god they're such idiots talking our dear socialism like that, it's just social democracy, blah blah blah" - while I get the annoyance, at the same time ARE YOU KIDDING ME? AMERICANS talked about socialism in a positive light on TV. AMERICANS. ON TELEVISION. PRAISED. SOCIALISM. Americans! Even if they have a poor understanding of what socialism actually is, I think it's a MASSIVE step forward that a mainstream, popular celebrity, in arguably the most pro-capitalist country in the entire world, can even SAY the word "socialism" on tv without being forced to resign. And he was cheered and applauded.

That's some progress, imo.

[DancingEmma]

Agree with what everyone has been saying. Bill Maher really is an arrogant douchebag, and even on topics where I should agree with him, like on his criticisms of religion, I still find him to be obnoxious. Definitely a man with a bourgeois, liberal, and not particularly coherent perspective on politics and society. I'll add that he's also incredibly sexist, which is probably the aspect of his schtick that I find the most personally offensive. He once did a bit about breastfeeding, basically saying that women shouldn't breastfeed in public places because it was indecent. And this is a guy who has identified as "libertarian." Ridiculous.

[Jason]

As stated in other posts, the idea of "ending religion" sounds appealing on the surface, but in reality, religion is NOT the source of mankind's problems. It's simply an expression of other problems. For instance, Al Queda is angry at imperalism and expresses this rage via religion. Another example, would be white Americans expressing rage at elitism by clinging to "god and guns".

Plus, Iv'e been around the world and it seems like nationalism, not religion seems to anger people. For instance, in many places people are infuriated when outsiders attack thier culture, economically oppress them, invade them, occupy them, or threaten to invade them (well, the last ones are obvious).

[RadioRaheem84]

I like Maher & Stewart both. I disagree with them a lot but who cares? They're liberals, you can't expect to agree with them on every little issue. They provide some good criticism and mainly, some great humour, especially from Maher's criticism of religion. While their liberal stuff pisses me off sometimes I still like them. Also, it helps that I'm not elitist enough to reject them as comedians because of a few things I disagree with them on (even if some of those are major things).

Also, I just want to say - the whole "oh my god they're such idiots talking our dear socialism like that, it's just social democracy, blah blah blah" - while I get the annoyance, at the same time ARE YOU KIDDING ME? AMERICANS talked about socialism in a positive light on TV. AMERICANS. ON TELEVISION. PRAISED. SOCIALISM. Americans! Even if they have a poor understanding of what socialism actually is, I think it's a MASSIVE step forward that a mainstream, popular celebrity, in arguably the most pro-capitalist country in the entire world, can even SAY the word "socialism" on tv without being forced to resign. And he was cheered and applauded.

That's some progress, imo.

Yeah and then when we tell them what socialism actually is and what our proposals are for social change, they will marginalize us faster than right wingers to safe face and not be red baited. They will relegate us to the "far left" and equate us with far right fascists because as you know, "politics all comes full circle".

It's not wrong to enjoy their shows, of course. It's not being prolier than thou. It's seeing their role in this whole thing is so furstrating. Their brand of politics is just as alienating as right wing Fox News.

[Luís Henrique]

people think is well the right wing radio host is right, there is a liberal establishment that thinks I am dumb and wants to control my life.

There isn't?!?!


liberals themselves fall right into this trap by playing the "you people are so stupid" game when the American public falls for right wing rhetoric.Yeah, classical.

But I'm not sure they want to win all elections - not, at least, more than they want to feel special.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Highly doubt that. I don't see liberals as the source of our social problems.

I certainly do. They are a bourgeois faction, stolid defenders of capitalism, and very nasty most of the time.

Luís Henrique

[Jason]

I'm even falling for the propoganda making a mullet joke on Facebook today :( But these liberal elitist would never criticize a non-American culture for sure. If you meet foreigners they go on and on about thier culture being threatened, but they give two shits about your culture, and aggressively attack it (and also liberal American elitists).

However, on the other hand, some teabaggers are racist assholes (of course it may take some alcohol to get them to come out). When they start referring to opponents as Jews, and ESPECIALLY when they start using racial slurs, is when they are "dead to me" as far as respect.

[DancingEmma]

I'm even falling for the propoganda making a mullet joke on Facebook today :( .

Can one not make a mullet joke and still be a leftist? It's a hairstyle, not some timeless uniform of the United States' proletariat. Actually, in the 1980s, it was even considered fashionable by rich yuppies and celebrities and so on. It still looked horrible in those days, though.

[RadioRaheem84]

I think a tasteless joke would be more like how illiterate a segment of the population is, or how you might be a redneck if you use a toilet seat as a frisbee or something related to poverty.

I mean liberals think poor white people are fair game because they vote against their own interests.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

I enjoyed Religilous.

[Art Vandelay]

I enjoyed Religilous.

When Bill keeps pressing that nut case about whether or not he thinks when he'll die he'll go to a better place and he finally says yeah it wouldn't matter if it was in a dumpster as long as I was with Jesus it'll be a better place; so Bill looks at him and goes: "so why don't you kill yourself then?" The look on that dude's face is priceless.

[Luís Henrique]

When Bill keeps pressing that nut case about whether or not he thinks when he'll die he'll go to a better place and he finally says yeah it wouldn't matter if it was in a dumpster as long as I was with Jesus it'll be a better place; so Bill looks at him and goes: "so why don't you kill yourself then?" The look on that dude's face is priceless.

He didn't know how to answer that? Gee, a third-rate parish priest would have it ready: "because it would be cheating, and cheaters go to hell".

Just because his interviewee was a complete idiot, it doesn't mean that Maher's question was intelligent. At all.

Luís Henrique

[Art Vandelay]

He didn't know how to answer that? Gee, a third-rate parish priest would have it ready: "because it would be cheating, and cheaters go to hell".

Just because his interviewee was a complete idiot, it doesn't mean that Maher's question was intelligent. At all.

Luís Henrique

I agree. If you read through the entire thread I've been extremely harsh on Maher. Doesn't mean you can't get some laughs by his exchanges with idiots.

[GPDP]

Since apparently liberal comedians are the hot topic of conversation at the moment, what do you all think about Lewis Black?

Unlike Maher and Stewart, I actually think he's pretty funny, and from what I've seen he doesn't ape the Democrats like they do, and often ridicules them along with the Republicans. He also does not hold back against religion, and is an avowed atheist if I remember correctly.

He can be kind of raunchy, though, but then again, so was George Carlin.

[Art Vandelay]

Since apparently liberal comedians are the hot topic of conversation at the moment, what do you all think about Lewis Black?

Unlike Maher and Stewart, I actually think he's pretty funny, and from what I've seen he doesn't ape the Democrats like they do, and often ridicules them along with the Republicans. He also does not hold back against religion, and is an avowed atheist if I remember correctly.

He can be kind of raunchy, though, but then again, so was George Carlin.

Carlin, Hicks and Stanhope are the best left leaning comedians there were. I like the way Black gets all riled up, however he's not best.

[Yazman]

Carlin, Hicks and Stanhope are the best left leaning comedians there were. I like the way Black gets all riled up, however he's not best.

I agree with this. Stanhope is pretty great too.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Since apparently liberal comedians are the hot topic of conversation at the moment, what do you all think about Lewis Black?

Unlike Maher and Stewart, I actually think he's pretty funny, and from what I've seen he doesn't ape the Democrats like they do, and often ridicules them along with the Republicans. He also does not hold back against religion, and is an avowed atheist if I remember correctly.

He can be kind of raunchy, though, but then again, so was George Carlin.

"A Republican will stand up in Congress and say, 'I've got a really bad idea.' And a Democrat will immediately jump to his feet and declare, 'And I can make it shittier.'"

[John]

My first post, let it be a lengthy one. Both are liberal reactionaries. Tune out.

[John]

Carlin, Hicks and Stanhope are the best left leaning comedians there were. I like the way Black gets all riled up, however he's not best.
I just had to google Doug Stanhope since you used the term "were". I thought he may have died. Anyway, the guy is funny but I think he may be one of those free market guys?

[Yazman]

Yeah and then when we tell them what socialism actually is and what our proposals are for social change, they will marginalize us faster than right wingers to safe face and not be red baited. They will relegate us to the "far left" and equate us with far right fascists because as you know, "politics all comes full circle".

It's not wrong to enjoy their shows, of course. It's not being prolier than thou. It's seeing their role in this whole thing is so furstrating. Their brand of politics is just as alienating as right wing Fox News.

Well, of course they will do that, but it's baby steps, man. I think it's important that the world "socialism" can be mentioned on national TV by a popular celebrity and be applauded, even if what they think is socialism isn't necessarily completely what we want. It's a start, though! And I consider that a good thing, even if it's a bit frustrating.

I agree that their brand of politics is just as alienating though. In fact, I actually dislike liberals far more than I dislike right wing Fox News types. At least Fox News types aren't pretending to be progressive.

[Art Vandelay]

I just had to google Doug Stanhope since you used the term "were". I thought he may have died. Anyway, the guy is funny but I think he may be one of those free market guys?

Yeah unfortunately he's a libertarian. I don't think he's extremely political. He's one of those guys whose so jagged and kind of wants to be left alone by the government. I know Carlin used to read Noam Chomsky and Zinn and Hicks was a fairly left wing utopian.

[Jason]

Wal Mart, despite using Chinese Slave Labor, destroying small business, and paying low wages in the US, does well because, unlike Maher, it doesn't insult small town people. That's business 101.

[Dean]

Can you elaborate on 'intentionally intellectually dishonest'? I'm quite fond of the man despite his shitty politics. He's was a pretty big piece in my intellectual development. Before philosophy or politics, I was primarily interested in religion. He is probably the best polemicist that I have ever seen.

This is precisely the problem. Polemicism is intentionally divisive and destructive. I admire those like Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky because they look for real solutions, without needlessly alienating even their worst moral enemies, and fully maintain their moral vision throughout.

Finkelstein likes to say, "there is room for everyone at the rendevous of victory." This is true. You are looking for a hollow win to a battle if you want to be polemical. If you want to win the war, you have to be determining - agreeing upon - where your enemy will stand when things are done.

If you want a better world, you can excuse people like Maher and Hitchens from influencing you. They only have a place in liberal disgust for commoners, which is shameful.

[Art Vandelay]

This is precisely the problem. Polemicism is intentionally divisive and destructive. I admire those like Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky because they look for real solutions, without needlessly alienating even their worst moral enemies, and fully maintain their moral vision throughout.

I am not fond of useless displays of moralism, at least Hitchens was somewhat of a materialist.


Finkelstein likes to say, "there is room for everyone at the rendevous of victory." This is true. You are looking for a hollow win to a battle if you want to be polemical. If you want to win the war, you have to be determining - agreeing upon - where your enemy will stand when things are done.

If you want a better world, you can excuse people like Maher and Hitchens from influencing you. They only have a place in liberal disgust for commoners, which is shameful.


This is indeed quite true, however it doesn't stop Hitch from having a certain place in my intellectual development even if I have surpassed him.

[Dean]

I am not fond of useless displays of moralism, at least Hitchens was somewhat of a materialist.
Right, not what I'm talking about. I'm sure you encounter moral reprehension every day in your life, and like me, I'm sure you see what few battles are worth fighting. Chomsky & Finkelstein are very calculating in this regard, which is why I mention them.


This is indeed quite true, however it doesn't stop Hitch from having a certain place in my intellectual development even if I have surpassed him.
I understand; I wasn't saying you should be ashamed of or disown Hitchens' influence on you. Its not like you can change it, or you can't learn anything from him. I didn't know how to easily put this in the post as well, though.

[DasFapital]

Maher and Hitchens inspired me to turn to atheism in my teens so I still have a soft spot for them. However, since then I have seen through their shitty politics.

[DoCt SPARTAN]

Also, his blind Obama worship is ridiculous.

He spends millions of dollars on him!!

[Zealot]

I'll watch real time every now and then, but he's like the liberal version of Bill O'Reily.

This is exactly what I was about to say. Maher is just terrible.

[NGNM85]

In fact, I actually dislike liberals far more than I dislike right wing Fox News types. At least Fox News types aren't pretending to be progressive.

By, and large; Liberals are Progressives, that's why the two are often used interchangeably. (That; and the, largely, successful attempt by the Right to turn the word; 'Liberal' into a pejorative.) They overwhelmingly tend to support gay marriage, universal healthcare, etc., etc. That's progressive.

[RadioRaheem84]

By, and large; Liberals are Progressives, that's why the two are often used interchangeably. (That; and the, largely, successful attempt by the Right to turn the word; 'Liberal' into a pejorative.) They overwhelmingly tend to support gay marriage, universal healthcare, etc., etc. That's progressive.

No not all liberals are progressive. I certainly would not consider Hillary Clinton or Obama to be progressive. Barely even liberal, I might add.

There are pro-gay marriage Republicans and Libertarians, but I certainly wouldn't call them progressive.

There are liberals who think that a universal health care plan is not feasible. Ezra Klein and Paul Krugman are liberals, with the latter writing a book on it, yet they both think progressives who campaign against sweatshops are akin to flat earthers.

[Nakidana]

I stumbled upon his doc about religion a few years ago but stopped watching halfway through. At first I thought it would be an intelligent look at religion but instead it turned out to be Maher travelling around the US (or the world, can't remember) being obnoxious to poor religious people. This is what I can't stand about the new atheist crowd. Being an atheist in the west today is not the toughest thing in the world and does not really take a great feat of intelligence. Going around insulting religious people is not you being a genius, it's you being a douche bag.

I agree with Alexander Cockburn that the big battles on God were fought hundreds of years ago, and being a contrarian nowadays would be arguing for the existence of God.

[NGNM85]

No not all liberals are progressive. I certainly would not consider Hillary Clinton or Obama to be progressive. Barely even liberal, I might add.

As you say; they're barely Liberals.


There are pro-gay marriage Republicans and Libertarians, but I certainly wouldn't call them progressive.

Holding one, or two progressive views does not necessarily make one a Progressive. Republicans who support gay rights are exceedingly rare. Almost nonexistent. Libertarians tend to hold hold some progressive views; they tend to support gay marriage, drug law reform, etc., but they also want to demolish the EPA, the FDA, the welfare state, etc., they hate unions, they think businesses should be allowed to fire people, or deny service or jobs to people based on race, gender, or sexual orientation. If you add it all up; these people are, overwhelmingly, regressive, in their political views.


There are liberals who think that a universal health care plan is not feasible.

Some do, unfortunately. They happen to be wrong, incidentally; economist Dean Baker has demonstrated that adopting a universal healthcare system, if it's designed properly, could actually erase the deficit, even with the retarded amount of money we're spending on our military. More to the point; most Liberals do support universal healthcare.


Ezra Klein and Paul Krugman are liberals, with the latter writing a book on it, yet they both think progressives who campaign against sweatshops are akin to flat earthers.

Unfortunately; that's correct. However; if you add up all the columns, they are still Progressives. The problem is that Liberals take the legitimacy of capitalism, of nation-states, etc., for granted. They think we just need to fix these institutions. (Which is not to say that attempts to improve the conditions of workers under capitalism should be opposed, quite the contrary.) They don't understand that it is these institutions that are the source of the problem. They don't go to the root. If they did; they'd be Radicals.

[thethinveil]

The progressive label appeared when liberals began adopting 90s neo liberal third way politics. Progressives were more aligned with the left and populism, as well with american pragmatist intellectualism from the 1890s through 1920s. Over time they have grown close to new dealer (some say indistinguishable, some say more conservative) and grown close to the new left (leaving the strongest contingent of progressives today - which is why they have such a hard time talking about socio-economic justice.)

Obama was considered by some to be a progressive earlier in the primaries before he dropped many of his objections to Bush during the primary and while in office. But this is common for our presidents. No excuse, just an explanation of sorts.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

Carlin, Hicks and Stanhope are the best left leaning comedians there were. I like the way Black gets all riled up, however he's not best.
Sorry but you left out Frankie Boyle. He is second only to Hicks.

[Nakidana]

Sorry but you left out Frankie Boyle. He is second only to Hicks.

How about Chappelle?

[RadioRaheem84]

As you say; they're barely Liberals.



Holding one, or two progressive views does not necessarily make one a Progressive. Republicans who support gay rights are exceedingly rare. Almost nonexistent. Libertarians tend to hold hold some progressive views; they tend to support gay marriage, drug law reform, etc., but they also want to demolish the EPA, the FDA, the welfare state, etc., they hate unions, they think businesses should be allowed to fire people, or deny service or jobs to people based on race, gender, or sexual orientation. If you add it all up; these people are, overwhelmingly, regressive, in their political views.

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Some do, unfortunately. They happen to be wrong, incidentally; economist Dean Baker has demonstrated that adopting a universal healthcare system, if it's designed properly, could actually erase the deficit, even with the retarded amount of money we're spending on our military. More to the point; most Liberals do support universal healthcare.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]

Unfortunately; that's correct. However; if you add up all the columns, they are still Progressives. The problem is that Liberals take the legitimacy of capitalism, of nation-states, etc., for granted. They think we just need to fix these institutions. (Which is not to say that attempts to improve the conditions of workers under capitalism should be opposed, quite the contrary.) They don't understand that it is these institutions that are the source of the problem. They don't go to the root. If they did; they'd be Radicals.

Amy Goodman is a progressive. Ezra Klein is a liberal.

They're not the same and the latter would consider the former a total nut. Liberals are far more establishment minded than progressives. Sometimes they intertwine like I could see Al Franken on a progressive talk show hosted by Pacifica Radio, but overall he is still a liberal.

Progressive in America is closer to like what was said above "new left", "social democrat" of sorts. Conventional mainstream liberals like Krugman, Klein and even Rachel Maddow tend to be really moderate in the greater scheme of things.

[ComingUpForAir]

I don't find Stewart to be very funny... I feel like he yells a lot and a lot of the humor is played out; you can tell his writers do a lot more than he does because he feels outdated while he cling to trends in speech/jokes and memes that people a lot younger than him are coming up with. Steven Colbert, on the other hand, feels a lot more 'authentic'... if that's the right word. His style is so characteristic/unique and so pleasantly inverted and clever that you know he's the driving force behind the show. Stewart has to make up for lack his lack of cleverness by using a lot of jewish impressions, new jersey impressions, and yelling, among a lot of other gimmicks. Many republicans I know tell me they like Colbert because he's funny and doesn't talk down to people on the right wing. I Feel like Colbert is just on another level.

As for Hitchens... I'm an immense fan of the guy. I've watched and read almost everything he's put out. He's got illuminating lectures on everything from Slavery Reparations to Capital Punishment to Lady Diana to Mother Teresa... along with his intense debates on religion and all his c-span appearances and wonderful books...

Anyone who's really studied the Hitch carefully would be ungrateful and snooty to dismiss him just because he supported the war in Iraq. I have to admit I don't agree with him, but maybe that's because I've watched him debate the issue several times and frankly just don't fully understand his position. I see the Hitch as a MASSIVE influence on my own intellectual development... I'm a very strong secularist as a result of his immense power.. I get that people think he's abrasive and scares people off... but I'd like to ask those people how THEY think a secular person should debate with a religious person.

The only real way is the way The Hitch does it... OUTRAGED and disgusted.. Hitchens doesn't attack PEOPLE --- I prefer someone who speaks and debates with real conviction over someone who doesn't. Someone like Hitchens may not appear to be having an impact in the short run, but I'm certainly revolutionized by him... the truth needs force to back it up if you are going to convince or battle the war of ideas with reactionaires.. and in my book Hitchens should be seen as a lion-heart by socialists.

Yeah, he went on the media a lot... and I guess some of you think that makes him a hypocrite.. but hey he didn't take compromised positions -- he was always very controversial...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Doesn't Bill Maher have some dodgy views on vaccination?

[NGNM85]

Doesn't Bill Maher have some dodgy views on vaccination?

Yeah. He has some wacky ideas about; 'Western medicine.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Maher#Health_care

[Raúl Duke]

. Most of the audience at Colbert, Stewart and Maher shows are frivolous liberal treny types that are more there to be unique among a sea of "ignorant" masses.

You may have a point, although I've seen "regular" people like Colbert. Stewart is really popular among young obvious liberals. Maher is either for an older crowd or not popular anymore or probably for those trendy liberal types only.

[MarxArchist]

Cannon fodder mouthspeak. Any social commentator who has the backing of major networks is a propagandist for capitalism. This may sound a tad 'extremist' on my part but it's the truth and any "socialist" who gets air time on any major network, it's done in such a way as to obfuscate the actual meaning of socialism.

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