PKK, peace or not?

[Tim Cornelis]

The PKK is in peace negotiations with Turkey. What are the chances of peace? What will happen to the PKK if there's peace? What would it mean for PJAK and PYD?

I'm interested in your views.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I doubt it, normally they try to make actual demands instead of just begging for amnesty Most likely considering the recent military successes of the PKK and it's recent radicalization they will probably ask the Turkish government for autonomy or Independence, to which the Turkish government will refuse. At this point it isn't unrealistic to hope for a free kurdistan in our lifetimes

[LeonJWilliams]

I've written a few posts about Turkey and the PKK (see ACA The Underground).

The Turkish government knows what the PKK want, an autonomous homeland for the ethnic Kurds.

The government has absolutely no intention of allowing this to happen despite the fascist MHP opposition who claim this is the case.

I don't really see the point of this 'peace process', it all seems very fake, maybe Recep Tayyip Erdogan is just trying to look like he is doing something so he can get 're-elected' (in the same way GW Bush was 're-elected').

Personally I think a far more interesting situation in Turkey is their arrests of Marxists yesterday morning, the DHKP-C.

Türkiye bok

[Art Vandelay]

So it would appear this 'peace process' is merely a facade?

[piet11111]

Probably a means to try to get the PKK to stop fighting the Syrian rebels for a bit.

[LeonJWilliams]

So it would appear this 'peace process' is merely a facade?

In my opinion yes.

I would be completely shocked if this produced anything worthy of mention, as would all the Turkish people I know (I live in Turkey).

[Art Vandelay]

In my opinion yes.

I would be completely shocked if this produced anything worthy of mention, as would all the Turkish people I know (I live in Turkey).

Its really not that surprising. What are the chances, if any, the PKK will lay down their arms?

[LeonJWilliams]

Its really not that surprising. What are the chances, if any, the PKK will lay down their arms?

Well, the only circumstance in which that will happen is if they are given or they take autonomy.

The PKK can be successful in achieving this but things have to get a lot worse first.

Personally I am not a fan of the PKK because they target civilians though I am certainly not a fan of AKP (the ruling party) who seem to want to turn Turkey into Iran, headscarfs at the ready!

[Art Vandelay]

Well, the only circumstance in which that will happen is if they are given or they take autonomy.

The PKK can be successful in achieving this but things have to get a lot worse first.

Personally I am not a fan of the PKK because they target civilians though I am certainly not a fan of AKP (the ruling party) who seem to want to turn Turkey into Iran, headscarfs at the ready!

How exactly do they target civilians? This is definitely something which no Marxist should take part in.

[LeonJWilliams]

How exactly do they target civilians? This is definitely something which no Marxist should take part in.

The PKK aren't Marxists, maybe they were but not now.

The PKK have left bombs in areas where people go shopping (like the High Street in the UK) city centres. They also target military, police, politicians etc which is perfectly legitimate.

But for example the Marxist group DHKP-C doesn't target civilians just military, police, politicians and business people. A much better organisation.

[Art Vandelay]

The PKK aren't Marxists, maybe they were but not now.

The PKK have left bombs in areas where people go shopping (like the High Street in the UK) city centres. They also target military, police, politicians etc which is perfectly legitimate.

But for example the Marxist group DHKP-C doesn't target civilians just military, police, politicians and business people. A much better organisation.

I'm assuming the PKK are maoists, so in no proper sense of the word would I consider them Marxists. How successful have either of these groups been?

[Sasha]

Looking at the interview with his brother a few days ago I think there is a distinct chance Ocalan would accept a deal which would involve his and other prisoners release, very limited autonomy and recognition as an political party.
This will also certainly lead to a significant split in the organization.

[LeonJWilliams]

I'm assuming the PKK are maoists, so in no proper sense of the word would I consider them Marxists. How successful have either of these groups been?

I wouldn't say Maoists, I think originally they were (and this may be hard to believe) Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist (don't ask me if that is even possible!) lol

These days though I think they are more like Kurdish nationalists.

There is a lot of confusion as I hear that the imprisoned leader Abdullah Ocalan no longer supports the creation of a Kurdish state as a state is against Marxism however the group seems to be on a different path since his imprisonment.

Ideologically speaking no-one seems to know 100% what they are!

[Tim Cornelis]

I'm assuming the PKK are maoists, so in no proper sense of the word would I consider them Marxists. How successful have either of these groups been?

In the 1990s they shifted from Marxism-Leninism towards democratic socialism; from 2005 onwards they re-radicalised a bit towards Bookchinist libertarian socialism, so now they are a mix of all of the above.

[Art Vandelay]

In the 1990s they shifted from Marxism-Leninism towards democratic socialism; from 2005 onwards they re-radicalised a bit towards Bookchinist libertarian socialism, so now they are a mix of all of the above.

Quite the eclectic mix they got going on there.

[Sasha]

As far as I know, while sometimes sloppy in their execution which leads sometimes to "coleteral damage" the PKK doesn't have a recent history of targeting random civilians. These actions do happen but are claimed by a group called the " Kurdistan freedom falcons" a group at best only loosly still connected with the PKK. ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Freedom_Falcons)

[LeonJWilliams]

As far as I know, while sometimes sloppy in their execution which leads sometimes to "coleteral damage" the PKK doesn't have a recent history of targeting random civilians. These actions do happen but are claimed by a group called the " Kurdistan freedom falcons" a group at best only loosly still connected with the PKK. ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Freedom_Falcons)

Certainly the Turks don't make such a distinction. When a bus stop gets blown up or a bomb is left in Ankara city centre and civilians get killed, it is the PKK.

If the PKK is against this strategy then they should kick out the Falcons/separate from that faction.

[Tim Cornelis]

I don't see peace happening between Turkey and the PKK, both parties, I imagine, are unwilling to make enough concessions.


Probably a means to try to get the PKK to stop fighting the Syrian rebels for a bit.

I don't think so, at least that wouldn't be particularly bright, I'd say. The PKK's armed wing is focused on Turkey, so it wouldn't necessarily affect Syria. In fact, the opposite effect would probably happen: if they sign a peace agreement or cease fire agreement they are free of harassment from the Turkish army and can 'freely' assist the PYD's armed wing and the Popular Protection Units in Syria.


Quite the eclectic mix they got going on there.

Formally, the PKK/PJAK/PYD seem to be advocating libertarian socialism through the KCK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koma_Civakên_Kurdistan), but informally, when watching interviews with both leaders and regular members, I see them insisting on autonomy without independence, civil rights, hinting at either social-democracy or democratic socialism.

The founding declaration of the KCK states:


For Kurdistan, however, democratic confederalism is a movement which does not interpret the right to self determination to establish a nation state, but develops its own democracy in spite of political boundaries. A Kurdish structure will develop through the creation of a federation of Kurds in Iran, Turkey, Syria and Iraq. And by uniting on a higher level they will form a confederal system.

Within Kurdistan democratic confederalism will establish village, towns and city assemblies and their delegates will be entrusted with the real decision-making, which in effect means that the people and the community will decide.


There is a lot of confusion as I hear that the imprisoned leader Abdullah Ocalan no longer supports the creation of a Kurdish state as a state is against Marxism however the group seems to be on a different path since his imprisonment.


He has spoken out against the creation of a nation-state and favours an international confederation of self-governing communities and self-administrated cooperatives.


The right of self-determination of the peoples includes the right to a state of their own. However, the foundation of a state does not increase the freedom of a people. The system of the United Nations that is based on nation-states has remained inefficient. Meanwhile, nation-states have become serious obstacles for any social development. Democratic confederalism is the contrasting paradigm of the oppressed people. Democratic confederalism is a non-state social paradigm. It is not controlled by a state. At the same time, democratic confederalism is the cultural organizational blueprint of a democratic nation. Democratic confederalism is based on grass-roots participation. Its decisionmaking processes lie with the communities. Higher levels only serve the coordination and implementation of the will of the communities that send their delegates to the general assemblies. For limited space of time they are both mouthpiece and executive institution. However, the basic power of decision rests with grassroots institutions.

For those interested you can read Abdullah Öcalan's views on the nation-state, capitalism, and democracy here (PDF) (http://www.freedom-for-ocalan.com/english/download/Ocalan-Democratic-Confederalism.pdf).


As far as I know, while sometimes sloppy in their execution which leads sometimes to "coleteral damage" the PKK doesn't have a recent history of targeting random civilians. These actions do happen but are claimed by a group called the " Kurdistan freedom falcons" a group at best only loosly still connected with the PKK. ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Freedom_Falcons)

I heard they have stopped targeting civilians since the mid-90s, but I'm not sure on that. The quite clearly pro-Turkish propaganda news site Today's Zaman still frequently claims the PKK's armed wing attacked schools, for example. So I'm not sure what to think of that.

[Sasha]

also be carefull to sing the praise of the DHCP-K too much, while dev-yol and later dev-sol where def mass movements with some room for dissent they now degenerated into something quite dogmatic cultist with an nasty habit of attacking other revolutionary groups, often within prison.
even going so far of killing their own (former) members for developing an interest in anarchism or left-communism or participating in by the leadership unsanctioned hungerstrikes.

but user "devrim" would be a far better source on this than i could ever be, he'll probably pop up in this thread sooner than later.

[Sasha]

Certainly the Turks don't make such a distinction. When a bus stop gets blown up or a bomb is left in Ankara city centre and civilians get killed, it is the PKK.

If the PKK is against this strategy then they should kick out the Falcons/separate from that faction.


they claim they did, what do you want them to do, take them out? for the same they are even run by the turkish state to discredit the PKK?
its certainly what often happened in northen-ireland

[LeonJWilliams]

hahaha Tim - I can't access that .pdf because the website is blocked by the Turkish government (as I live in Turkey!!).

I will use a proxy to try to access it. Is there a Turkish version as well (not for me)?

[LeonJWilliams]

As far as I know, while sometimes sloppy in their execution which leads sometimes to "coleteral damage" the PKK doesn't have a recent history of targeting random civilians. These actions do happen but are claimed by a group called the " Kurdistan freedom falcons" a group at best only loosly still connected with the PKK. ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Freedom_Falcons)

Thanks, this is not something that is commonly known in Turkey, the news here just reports everything at the work on the PKK, I just asked my fiancé (who is a Turkish Turk) and she has never heard of them!

[LeonJWilliams]

also be carefull to sing the praise of the DHCP-K too much, while dev-yol and later dev-sol where def mass movements with some room for dissent they now degenerated into something quite dogmatic cultist with an nasty habit of attacking other revolutionary groups, often within prison.
even going so far of killing their own (former) members for developing an interest in anarchism or left-communism or participating in by the leadership unsanctioned hungerstrikes.

but user "devrim" would be a far better source on this than i could ever be, he'll probably pop up in this thread sooner than later.

Indeed, he is very knowledgeable, I had the pleasure of meeting him while he was here in Ankara.

[Sasha]

Thanks, this is not something that is commonly known in Turkey, the news here just reports everything at the work on the PKK, I just asked my fiancé (who is a Turkish Turk) and she has never heard of them!


yeah, also a lot of the actions done by other armed groups (like dhkc/p or the various maoist groups) or mob related attacks get blamed on the PKK in the turkish media. and even when done by the PKK often some very essential context is missing, if there are stories of PKK killing civilians in the kurdish area's it are often members of armed para-state anti-pkk forces, not random civi's.

[Art Vandelay]

yeah, also a lot of the actions done by other armed groups (like dhkc/p or the various maoist groups) or mob related attacks get blamed on the PKK in the turkish media. and even when done by the PKK often some very essential context is missing, if there are stories of PKK killing civilians in the kurdish area's it are often members of armed para-state anti-pkk forces, not random civi's.

So the PKK does attack civilians, however maybe not as much as is reported?

[Sasha]

As far as I know its mostly targeted killings of parastate forces, local politcians and ocasionally buisiness ppl who refuse to pay "revolutionary tax", most random civilians get killed by accidental premature detonation of road side bombs

[Art Vandelay]

As far as I know its mostly targeted killings of parastate forces, local politcians and ocasionally buisiness ppl who refuse to pay "revolutionary tax", most random civilians get killed by accidental premature detonation of road side bombs

What is 'revolutionary tax?' Taxes they're enforcing in areas of their control?

[Tim Cornelis]

I think most have already seen this, but for those who haven't:

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It's refreshing to see (relatively) free women in the Middle East.


hahaha Tim - I can't access that .pdf because the website is blocked by the Turkish government (as I live in Turkey!!).

I will use a proxy to try to access it. Is there a Turkish version as well (not for me)?

I asked, they don't have a Turkish version.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

What is 'revolutionary tax?' Taxes they're enforcing in areas of their control?

Think of it as a "noble protection racket". They pay you, and you don't burn down their corporate offices or let someone else burn them, you invest the money in your guerrilla organization. It's a convenient way for insurgencies to finance themselves in areas with lots of corrupt, high profit industries. I've heard of it in Nepal, the Philippines and Colombia to name a few places.

[Art Vandelay]

Think of it as a "noble protection racket". They pay you, and you don't burn down their corporate offices or let someone else burn them, you invest the money in your guerrilla organization. It's a convenient way for insurgencies to finance themselves in areas with lots of corrupt, high profit industries. I've heard of it in Nepal, the Philippines and Colombia to name a few places.

Do they extort common people as well?

[Sasha]

No, mostly big buisness, Kurdish buisnessmen abroad and the (petrol and heroin) smugglers.