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Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant'
18th January 2013, 09:38
Science fiction and fantasy novels routinely portray scantily clad woman on their covers - a device that draws the heterosexual male eye but may turn away women readers. Lynsea Garrison finds one fantasy author aiming to zap gender stereotypes.
Jim Hines straddles the remnants of a defeated alien species (a table), and clasps a pistol (a toy gun) as he triumphantly raises a cyborg's head (a toaster). Sometimes he fights battles alongside his romantic interest (a large teddy bear).
But no matter the mission, Hines shows some flesh. Just because he is waging a war, it does not mean he cannot be alluring at the same time, right?
Hines, a fantasy author, is posing like some of the female characters on science fiction and fantasy book covers he says objectify women.
He gets into character by twisting his body into the same contorted positions as the female characters on the books.
"The way women are portrayed is just so ridiculous, so often, you just stop seeing it," Hines says.
"I think posing has made people see it again - you see how ridiculous it is when a 38-year-old fantasy writer is doing it."
Since he started in January 2012, Hines' poses have become the most popular posts on his blog. So he launched a new series in December to raise money to fight Aicardi syndrome, a genetic disorder that mostly affects girls.

The series has drawn more than 100,000 people to Hines' website and raised $15,405 (£9,623) for the cause.
The project is one of the latest expressions of a growing conversation about the portrayal of women in science fiction and fantasy cover art.
Tracy Hurley co-founded Prismatic Art Collection, a directory of artists who draw more diverse depictions of men and women in fantasy art, particularly for role playing games like Dungeons and Dragons.
"Women are so often portrayed assuming that a stereotypical hetero male is going to be the person looking at the cover," says Hurley.
"Male characters [are] powerful and strong, and women's sexuality will be emphasised. And why is that a problem? It's constraining for both men and women."
Many science fiction and fantasy readers are disappointed to encounter everyday sexism in a medium that is supposed to offer an escape.
Covers frequently exhibit women's bodies with revealing clothing unsuitable for combat, and fans argue that sexualising female characters sends a message to readers that women are sex objects.
Hurley says her goal is not to ban attractive women from book covers but to encourage publishers to include a wider variety of female characters.
"I worry about girls who don't see a character who looks like them and feel that science fiction and fantasy aren't for them," she says.
Part of the challenge is that women have long been portrayed on book covers in the same manner - thin, white and conventionally attractive.
The stories of Conan the Barbarian are largely credited with transforming fantasy art in the 1960s. These covers showcased muscled men and servile women, a style that artists replicated in subsequent decades.

When Irene Gallo began working in the publishing industry in the 1990s, publishers were moving away from the women emblematic of the Conan covers.
"Our sales people were saying that we want sexy women on covers, but we want them to be in active roles," says Gallo, now creative director of Tor Books.
Covers are improving, but strong women in chainmail bikinis and tight clothing regularly appear in comics and subgenres such as urban fantasy and paranormal romance.
While these women are supposed to be fighters, critics say they are drawn in a way that renders them powerless.
"People think that if you give the girl a gun, suddenly she's a strong woman," said Silvia Moreno-Garcia, a fantasy writer.
"But maybe she's still a sex object. We forget that the pose, the cropping, the way it's painted [all] tell a story. So if you have one element that says strength - like a gun - but everything else doesn't follow that, that's not the narrative you think you have."
Gallo thinks part of the problem is that male artists greatly outnumber female artists in the industry.
"You go to art school, and it's 50-50," Gallo said. "But professionally, it's overwhelmingly male.
"This is an unfortunate fact of the industry. These artists grew up with comics and gaming, so it's easy to perpetuate these things without thinking them through."

Marketing strategies may also be responsible for sexist covers. But the mantra that sex sells may not be accurate.
According to 2012 data from publishing industry analysts Codex Group, less overtly explicit covers in fact have a wider appeal among general readers.
Codex Chief Executive Officer Peter Hildick-Smith remains puzzled why science fiction and fantasy publishers sell sexualised covers.
"My guess is that it has simply evolved as category convention, allowing book buyers to instantly know that a given books is in one of their preferred categories," he said.
Hines, author of such titles as Libriomancer, The Mermaid's Madness and Goblin Quest, says many in the science fiction and fantasy community have not had to think about harmful messaging or sexism.
While momentum is building, Hines does not think the industry is at a tipping point yet. And that means readers will likely see covers he says objectify women for a while.
Hines is just trying to make sure his covers aren't among them.
"My next book has a woman on the cover," Hines says.
"And I told my publisher: 'if you put her into one of these spine-contorted poses, the entire internet is going to make fun of you.'"

(BBC News magazine)

Os Cangaceiros
18th January 2013, 09:47
This topic always reminds me of one piece of art in particular:

http://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/927145.jpg

(although granted "Army of Darkness" is kind of a satirical film so I don't know how good of an example it is, lol)

Luc
20th January 2013, 03:35
This topic always reminds me of one piece of art in particular:

http://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/927145.jpg

(although granted "Army of Darkness" is kind of a satirical film so I don't know how good of an example it is, lol)

i see ur Army of Darkness and raise u power metal's Manowar

http://www.wallsave.com/wallpapers/1024x768/god-of-war/214977/god-of-war-manowar-gods-heavy-metal-bands-214977.jpg

put in spoilers cause they damn huge and this will get pornographic pretty quick :lol:

Danielle Ni Dhighe
20th January 2013, 03:59
Fiction tends to reflect the ideology of the society that produced it.

Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant'
21st January 2013, 09:49
Fiction tends to reflect the ideology of the society that produced it.

Agreed. I can't think of any examples of say, a strong, interesting female protagonist where her looks are not a focal point and aren't fitting the typical male fantasy (happy to here of some examples if anyone's got any)
Sure, there are a lot of examples where this happens with male characters too, but I think the scales are definately stacked in favour of men being whatever age, weight, size they want and still being the heroes.

Jimmie Higgins
21st January 2013, 11:19
One of the ironies of cover-art is that in the 1970s, many Sci-fi writers were explicitly progressive/left and influenced by the counter-culture. I read about one of these authors complaining that he'd go out of his way to subvert racial and sexual assumptions and stereotypes, and yet no matter what happened in the story, no matter what the physical description or even the race of the protagonist, the books would always come out with a buff blonde guy protecting a white woman on the cover.

It's probably worse in comic books - if only for the greater illustration content. If folks haven't seen it, I recommend checking out this site: http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/


http://25.media.tumblr.com/75593ebebcad766e1e881160a32f0727/tumblr_mfntz1VcIq1r34y4ho1_500.png (http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/page/9#)

The site is all about how sexism in comic book imagry and how comic book covers systematically show women in physically impossible poses designed to show both butt and breasts at once. Furthermore that the poses are not only flawed in position but that women are almost always (even when they are the protagonists) put in undynamic and "weak" poses where as men are shown in heroic dynamic poses. Considering that the artists are professionals, it can not just be "horny" comic book artists - it's a decision by the comic industry and producers. In fact many of the people posting to the site are professional or striving to be professional comic book artists and they describe their frustration at constantly being told that their style is not "industry standard" if they don't show women in submissive positions with broken spines that allow facing front and back at the same time.

The website also has "redraws" where people "fix" the images by putting the female characters spines back into place, fixing shoulders so that they are above the breasts (rather than sometimes under and to the side of the breast), and balencing out body proportions to something that's still in the comic book style but doesn't look like the upper half of the body is held up by magic.

Os Cangaceiros
21st January 2013, 11:51
Agreed. I can't think of any examples of say, a strong, interesting female protagonist where her looks are not a focal point and aren't fitting the typical male fantasy (happy to here of some examples if anyone's got any)

The Golden Compass

Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant'
21st January 2013, 11:58
The Golden Compass

...Ok. Though that's cheating slightly because it's about a little girl so the objectification in question would not / should not be applied.

But fair enough, good point.

black magick hustla
21st January 2013, 11:58
idk, i agree that lit and stuff reflect society but i also think that there is something about geekdom that is deeply chauvinistic and completely non self conscious about it. i mean geeky cultures are mayor suausagefests so it makes sense

Os Cangaceiros
21st January 2013, 12:12
...Ok. Though that's cheating slightly because it's about a little girl so the objectification in question would not / should not be applied.

But fair enough, good point.

Yeah, I mean if you count children's books then there are many examples.

If you want to see some objectification of men, just walk by the romance novel section of any bookstore. I always feel bad when I look at those covers, because I know my pecs will never be that glistening, and my abs will never be quite that cut and defined. :crying:

Jimmie Higgins
21st January 2013, 12:21
idk, i agree that lit and stuff reflect society but i also think that there is something about geekdom that is deeply chauvinistic and completely non self conscious about it. i mean geeky cultures are mayor suausagefests so it makes senseThis is interesting and I certaintly get this vibe from "geek-culture" events and so on. Even though I always loved comics as a kid and like sci-fi and many standard "geek" cultural things I also always felt outside of that sort of hard-core fans of the genre. If, as an adolessent male, I felt somewhat alienated by some of the sexism in marketing and style in this genre, I can only imagine what a a teenage woman must feel. Worse is that even though women are much more of the sci-fi fanbase than even a decade ago, when Comic-con and things like that are covered in the media, the only images of female fans are of the ones that dressed up in skimpy character costumes.

On the other hand I'm not sure if it's really more sexist than other male-targeted genres. Is sci-fi more sexist than the popular genre it replaced in the US: westerns? I would find that hard to believe considering how many western tales were stories about fear of "misengenation" and loss of "womanly virtue" in the fronteers and the white male heroes charged to protect women (symbolically "civilization"?) if they wanted it or not ("the Searchers"). Or what about action movies and novels, detective fiction, and let's not forget war movies.

I don't know but Sci-fi seems contradictory on this count. In content it can sometimes be much more progressive than other genres, but because it has been directed towards and marketed at young males there is also a very blatant tendency to promote the worst kind of sexist fantasy crap.

Danielle Ni Dhighe
21st January 2013, 12:34
idk, i agree that lit and stuff reflect society but i also think that there is something about geekdom that is deeply chauvinistic and completely non self conscious about it. i mean geeky cultures are mayor suausagefests so it makes sense
There have always been women geeks, and that's only been increasing, and there's a significant subset of us who are feminist geeks. The problem with sf/f and comics is that they have traditionally and continue to be primarily aimed at a youngish male demographic, although it's better in some areas than it used to be.

GiantMonkeyMan
21st January 2013, 12:35
Agreed. I can't think of any examples of say, a strong, interesting female protagonist where her looks are not a focal point and aren't fitting the typical male fantasy (happy to here of some examples if anyone's got any)
Sure, there are a lot of examples where this happens with male characters too, but I think the scales are definately stacked in favour of men being whatever age, weight, size they want and still being the heroes.
Off the top of my head, Ripley in Alien. But you're right, of course. Such examples are only the exceptions that prove the rule. The way people elevate characters like Ripley ignores the vast majority of female characters who are overly sexualised or secondary and weak to male characters.

I like this picture on how the Avengers would look if they all posed the same as Black Widow: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/11/27/what-if-the-male-avengers-posed-like-the-female-one/ (edit: althought the linked website completely misses the point with its subtle homophobia by comparing the stances of the male avengers to Brokeback Mountain)

Leftsolidarity
21st January 2013, 18:04
Thread moved to Women's Struggle

Clarion
22nd January 2013, 19:25
While there is sexism in some SF, the authors can't be blamed for the half-dressed young woman on the cover phenomenon, that's all down to marketing. Publishers have a team of artists they use and they give an artist a target market and possibly a two sentence summation of the plot (although more likely just a sub-genre label) and are expected to draw something that will sell.