Lenin to be buried?

[Nakidana]

Lenin's embalmed corpse edges nearer the exit of his Red Square mausoleum
Poll finds support growing for moving the body of Soviet Union's still revered first leader from his tomb outside Kremlin's walls
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/GU_front_gifs/2013/1/16/1358347975317/Russian-Communists-suppor-010.jpg
Just one in four Russians thinks the body of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin should remain ensconced in its dark mausoleum on Red Square, according to a poll released on Wednesday.

The new findings have fuelled speculation that the Russian authorities may bury Lenin's body – a measure that remains highly politically charged 89 years after the Soviet leader's death.

The Levada Centre, an independent pollster, found that 25% of those polled believed Lenin should remain in his mausoleum – a record low since the organisation first began asking the question in 1997. Most of those polled – 34% – said Lenin should be buried in St Petersburg's Volkovsky cemetery, while 19% wanted to see him buried in the Kremlin walls, alongside other Soviet luminaries.

Lenin's body, displayed in a glass case inside a mausoleum just outside the Kremlin's walls, has become more of a tourist curio than the site of pilgrimage it was during Soviet times. Yet Russia (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/russia)'s Communists, the country's second-biggest party after United Russia, as well as their mainly elderly supporters, have fiercely opposed any discussion of moving the body of a man they still revere.

Perhaps that's why Moscow has been awash in rumours that Lenin's body will be moved secretly. A great white tarpaulin went over the mausoleum last month, ostensibly for a four-month renovation to the structure's foundation and back wall. Officials were forced to deny the white bubble was designed to hide secret goings-on inside.

"There are no plans about the mausoleum as of today," Vladimir Kozhin, head of the Kremlin's property management department, said after the covering went up. "The decision on the future of the monument will be in line with what people think is right or will be a political decision taken by the leadership of the country," he told the Interfax news agency.
Kozhin has publicly supported moving Lenin's body in the past, as has Vladimir Medinsky, the new culture minister, though he has been sure to stress that it is merely his opinion as a "private citizen".

But the decision, as with most in Russia, will probably come down to one man. Vladimir Putin (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vladimir-putin) raised the issue last month, though he did not firmly come down on one side or the other. During a discussion with supporters on disabilities, Putin lamented the loss of ideology that followed the fall of the Soviet Union (http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-01-12/world/36312433_1_tomb-soviet-symbolism-levada-center). "Many people argue about Lenin's tomb, saying that it does not follow tradition," he said. "What does not follow tradition?"
"[T]he communists continued tradition … and did it competently, in accordance with the demands of those times," he said, before adding: "But we must return to our historic roots."

Putin has decried the fall of the Soviet Union as a catastrophe, but has also worked hard to build up heroes from Russia's pre-Bolshevik era, including anti-revolutionary reformer Pyotr Stolypin, prime minister from 1906 to 1911, and the tsar Peter the Great.

Pollsters and analysts see nostalgia for the Soviet era diminishing as older generations die off.

"The number of respondents who regret the collapse of the Soviet Union will fall commensurately with the decrease in the number of people who lived in that country," Alexei Grazhdankin, deputy head of the Levada Centre, told the Kommersant newspaper this month, explaining a new poll that found that 49% of Russians regretted the collapse of the Soviet Union – the first time the number has fallen below 50% since 1992.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/16/lenin-body-poll-moving-mausoleum?commentpage=1
I know, I know, "who gives a fuck, he's dead anyway" etc etc.

But I honestly think it's about time. If he's buried fanatical supporters will have one less reason to idolize him and critics will be unable to point and laugh at the irony of Lenin having his own Mausoleum.

Plus, Lenin himself just wanted to be buried next to his mother.

[RedAnarchist]

Good, and I hope they give him what he wanted.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Not good, his mummy must remain in the square, undisturbed, people whom say otherwise are wholly ignorant of what they are suggesting.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/200/0/3/0380139d4ec0990f8c606658dea45c3f.jpg

[l'Enfermé]

The KPRF put up an article yesterday I think, on their site, where they announced that on the 21st, they'll have this grand ceremony commemorating the 89th anniversary of Lenin's death.

The title of the announcement, by the way, actually did not refer to Lenin as, say, "Founder of the Soviet Union/RSFSR", "Bolshevik leader", "Chairman of the Sovnarkom" or anything like that. No. It referred to him as the "founder of the Russian Federation".

That's the KPRF for you. Nationalist scumbags.

Anyway, thought someone might find this funny, and it's kinda on-topic.

[Le Socialiste]

They should bury the poor guy. It's what he wanted, anyway.

[Nakidana]

The KPRF put up an article yesterday I think, on their site, where they announced that on the 21st, they'll have this grand ceremony commemorating the 89th anniversary of Lenin's death.

The title of the announcement, by the way, actually did not refer to Lenin as, say, "Founder of the Soviet Union/RSFSR", "Bolshevik leader", "Chairman of the Sovnarkom" or anything like that. No. It referred to him as the "founder of the Russian Federation".

That's the KPRF for you. Nationalist scumbags.

Anyway, thought someone might find this funny, and it's kinda on-topic.

Heh, also kinda funny how they apparently revere Lenin so much that they won't even discuss moving his body...yet that was his own wish.

How the hell does that work out? :rolleyes:

[Geiseric]

I would want to be cremated in a viking type of burial when I die. Being buried and eaten by worms and maggots is so weird.

[Overture]

I would want to be cremated in a viking type of burial when I die. Being buried and eaten by worms and maggots is so weird.

No one cares. Also, this reminds me of the ridiculous dogma of Marxism that would keep him for public display anyways. He should've been buried all along.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

No one cares. Also, this reminds me of the ridiculous dogma of Marxism that would keep him for public display anyways. He should've been buried all along.

There is nothing wrong with mummies and the compulsion to put corpses in the ground is weird.

[Nakidana]

I would want to be cremated in a viking type of burial when I die. Being buried and eaten by worms and maggots is so weird.

Hipster. :laugh:


the ridiculous dogma of Marxism that would keep him for public display anyways.

Which dogma is this?

[Q]

I think it would be best for a working class regime to bury him, next to his mother, just as he wished.

Don't let the bourgeois bury him. That'd be bad PR, on many levels.

[Ostrinski]

Only the workers themselves organized as a class-collective-for-itself can properly bury Lenin so as not to lead to a state capitalist burial :D.

[Overture]

Which dogma is this?

The dogma that permeates the entire "tradition". "All I know is that I'm not a Marxist" said the chief architect himself.

[maskerade]

can they at least wait until i go see him? easy jet are having a sale on flights to moscow...

i think i just thought of an excellent marketing idea.

[Questionable]

Better than having his body drug down the street and tossed into the garbage when the fascists take power.

[Dire Helix]

If nothing else, this would finally kill the argument that Russia`s economic woes are due to "the body of the Antichrist preserved in the heart of Moscow" and that the mausoleum "emanates evil waves that suppress Russian people`s will".

[o well this is ok I guess]

I would want to be cremated in a viking type of burial when I die. Being buried and eaten by worms and maggots is so weird. It's cool, Lenin's body is probably mostly plastic and chemicals.

[Le Socialiste]

I think it would be best for a working class regime to bury him, next to his mother, just as he wished.

Don't let the bourgeois bury him. That'd be bad PR, on many levels.

As much as I share your sentiments, I think it's well past time for his burial. Have you seen recent pictures of the embalming process? Aside from his face the body is nearly unrecognizable, a husk.

[Nakidana]

The dogma that permeates the entire "tradition". "All I know is that I'm not a Marxist" said the chief architect himself.

I'm not an expert on Marxism by any means, but I hardly think it's Marxist dogma to have public displays of dead people.


Only the workers themselves organized as a class-collective-for-itself can properly bury Lenin so as not to lead to a state capitalist burial :D.

Can we just put him in the fucking ground already? :laugh:

[Geiseric]

The dogma that permeates the entire "tradition". "All I know is that I'm not a Marxist" said the chief architect himself.

He was saying that not in general but in response to somebody who claimed that what they were suggesting (either ultra left or opportunist) was the "marxist program."

[Geiseric]

If nothing else, this would finally kill the argument that Russia`s economic woes are due to "the body of the Antichrist preserved in the heart of Moscow" and that the mausoleum "emanates evil waves that suppress Russian people`s will".

People actually say that? It is so weird though that Stalin paraded the body around like Lenin was King Tut or something.

[Q]

He was saying that not in general but in response to somebody who claimed that what they were suggesting (either ultra left or opportunist) was the "marxist program."

More on the context of that quote (http://libcom.org/forums/theory/context-marxs-i-am-not-marxist-quote-09062009).

[Let's Get Free]

Its creepy as hell having anybody being on display that long. I think Lenin would have been absolutely horrified if he had known he would have been mummified and his body put on display for almost 90 years.

[Ostrinski]

Eternal Commissar.

[Hermes]

The whole mausoleum thing kind of unnerves me, to be honest.

It'd be like walking in the street and suddenly stepping on a corpse.

(but then again I'm pretty afraid of wax museums)

[Popular Front of Judea]

I am just thankful that George Washington died long before the necessary embalming techniques were available.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Us discussing this reminds me of others discussing the condition of certain football players or celebrities.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Can we just put him in the fucking ground already? :laugh:

Again I ask, why? What is with the compulsion to bury the dead?

Numerous cultures practiced mummification and it seems more respectful in a way then just shoving some stiff in a box then shoving that box under 6 feet of earth. Though this is besides the point that he is dead as a door nail and his mummy is now a relic in the Soviet story and will remain there as a beacon of Socialist knowledge and psych powers.

[Veovis]

The KPRF put up an article yesterday I think, on their site, where they announced that on the 21st, they'll have this grand ceremony commemorating the 89th anniversary of Lenin's death.

The title of the announcement, by the way, actually did not refer to Lenin as, say, "Founder of the Soviet Union/RSFSR", "Bolshevik leader", "Chairman of the Sovnarkom" or anything like that. No. It referred to him as the "founder of the Russian Federation".

That's the KPRF for you. Nationalist scumbags.

Anyway, thought someone might find this funny, and it's kinda on-topic.

Well, he was pretty instrumental in founding the Russian Soviet Federal -ation Socialist Republic.

[Nakidana]

Again I ask, why? What is with the compulsion to bury the dead?

Numerous cultures practiced mummification and it seems more respectful in a way then just shoving some stiff in a box then shoving that box under 6 feet of earth. Though this is besides the point that he is dead as a door nail and his mummy is now a relic in the Soviet story and will remain there as a beacon of Socialist knowledge and psych powers.

Not sure if trolling, but I never argued burial should be obligatory for everyone. :confused: In fact I stated quite clearly in my post why I believed Lenin should be buried.

Lenin's psychic powers are indisputable though.

[Veovis]

I should add that they had better not bury him until I get a change to go to Petrograd and see him myself.

[Le Socialiste]

I should add that they had better not bury him until I get a change to go to Petrograd and see him myself.

But he's in Moscow...

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Again I ask, why? What is with the compulsion to bury the dead?

Numerous cultures practiced mummification and it seems more respectful in a way then just shoving some stiff in a box then shoving that box under 6 feet of earth. Though this is besides the point that he is dead as a door nail and his mummy is now a relic in the Soviet story and will remain there as a beacon of Socialist knowledge and psych powers.
It's a cultural trait that probably originated because dead bodies are stinky and attract scavengers and predators who might think "okay this dead ape-thing is kinda tasty and there's a whole bunch of live ones over there sitting by a fire ...". Think about it, you're a weak floppy weird looking ape thing running around butt-ass naked with a stick or something in the middle of paleolithic Africa and your buddy gets capped by a psychotic baboon who's hopped up on the paleolithic equivalent of meth. You know some jackals and wolves and wild-dogs and and hyenas and lions and bears oh my and whatever the hell else is out there are gonna smell it and come check it out, so you bury the body.

(burial rituals date back to when us and neanderthals first appeared and I'm making a hypothesis on why)

[Vanguard1917]

I think it would be best for a working class regime to bury him, next to his mother, just as he wished.

Don't let the bourgeois bury him. That'd be bad PR, on many levels.

So having 'him' exhibited like a freak by the bourgeoisie is good 'PR'?

Lenin's mausoleum has always been an insult to the man's legacy. It should be demolished right away.

[Ostrinski]

I should add that they had better not bury him until I get a change to go to Petrograd and see him myself.>2013
>Petrograd

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Not sure if trolling,

It's a common mistake but my posts are usually always making a genuine point but still interlaced with something stupid/silly.

Or just outright silly but this not one of those times.


but I never argued burial should be obligatory for everyone. :confused:

I didn't say you were, I was questioning the societal need for the burying of the deceased that is borderline compulsive. I think it's a very strange phenomenon indeed. I am also willing to make a case as to why Lenin's allged wish to be buried should be irrelevant.


It's a cultural trait that probably originated because dead bodies are stinky and attract scavengers and predators who might think "okay this dead ape-thing is kinda tasty and there's a whole bunch of live ones over there sitting by a fire ...". Think about it, you're a weak floppy weird looking ape thing running around butt-ass naked with a stick or something in the middle of paleolithic Africa and your buddy gets capped by a psychotic baboon who's hopped up on the paleolithic equivalent of meth. You know some jackals and wolves and wild-dogs and and hyenas and lions and bears oh my and whatever the hell else is out there are gonna smell it and come check it out, so you bury the body.

(burial rituals date back to when us and neanderthals first appeared and I'm making a hypothesis on why)

Before I proceed with my response I am curious, now that we're discussing this, if there has been any instances of burial rituals or burying the dead (even if crudely) among any of the other ape species.

Moving forward, I accept this hypothesis on the face of it however I think it's much more than that. To me it seems like a collective 'sweeping things under the rug' mentality. Out of sight, out of mind. It's like in the public psyche the dead can only be honored if they are out of sight in the ground with only a monument to see, then they're gone, relegated to nostalgic memories and the ethereal. But I also wonder, what primal incentive would ancient man have for burial? Cannibalism would seem like the better route, protein is hard to come by, food is food. The only practical purpose I could see is perhaps not drawing predators around the nomadic tribes wondering about particularly the elderly, women and children.

I just don't see the logic behind the push to bury Lenin.

[Nakidana]

Okay you raise two issues here, burial in general and the burial of Lenin.


I didn't say you were, I was questioning the societal need for the burying of the deceased that is borderline compulsive.

I think you're exaggerating, there is no "compulsive tendency" in society to bury people, e.g. many people are cremated. Why are people buried? The Wiki article on burial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial#Reasons_for_human_burial) has a list of reasons, some rooted in superstition and tradition, others practical.


I think it's a very strange phenomenon indeed. I am also willing to make a case as to why Lenin's allged wish to be buried should be irrelevant.

Go ahead, let's hear 'em. I know some people are of the opinion that a person shouldn't get to decide anything after he's dead, because he's dead anyway and thus wouldn't care. I disagree in regards to burials as I believe it's only decent that you get to choose how your body is to be handled after death (within limits, of course). If you want to be buried you should be buried, if you want to be cremated you should be cremated. If you want to be thrown to the dogs we'd have to consider that because your fellow human beings might not want to see or smell rotting corpses when they visit the cemetery.


Moving forward, I accept this hypothesis on the face of it however I think it's much more than that. To me it seems like a collective 'sweeping things under the rug' mentality. Out of sight, out of mind. It's like in the public psyche the dead can only be honored if they are out of sight in the ground with only a monument to see, then they're gone, relegated to nostalgic memories and the ethereal. But I also wonder, what primal incentive would ancient man have for burial? Cannibalism would seem like the better route, protein is hard to come by, food is food. The only practical purpose I could see is perhaps not drawing predators around the nomadic tribes wondering about particularly the elderly, women and children.

I don't think so, I think it's all about tradition and practicality. It's a tradition to be buried, but also it's very practical not to have the body decomposing above ground being eaten by animals, insects, giving off bad odors and even passing on infectious diseases in some cases. In ancient times humans obviously didn't know how to keep bodies from decomposing so I guess burial seemed like the obvious choice.


I just don't see the logic behind the push to bury Lenin.

It would be in accordance with his wishes and beliefs and would further discourage a cult of personality, discourage his critics and show some decency towards his body which is falling apart inside an old tomb.

That's how I see it. :thumbup1:

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Before I proceed with my response I am curious, now that we're discussing this, if there has been any instances of burial rituals or burying the dead (even if crudely) among any of the other ape species.

Moving forward, I accept this hypothesis on the face of it however I think it's much more than that. To me it seems like a collective 'sweeping things under the rug' mentality. Out of sight, out of mind. It's like in the public psyche the dead can only be honored if they are out of sight in the ground with only a monument to see, then they're gone, relegated to nostalgic memories and the ethereal. But I also wonder, what primal incentive would ancient man have for burial? Cannibalism would seem like the better route, protein is hard to come by, food is food. The only practical purpose I could see is perhaps not drawing predators around the nomadic tribes wondering about particularly the elderly, women and children.

I just don't see the logic behind the push to bury Lenin.
I was making a wild guess that seemed logical in my head - worrying about predators and whatnot, and I have no idea if it's got a factual basis.


But on other animals: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3818833.stm

[Astarte]

The KPRF put up an article yesterday I think, on their site, where they announced that on the 21st, they'll have this grand ceremony commemorating the 89th anniversary of Lenin's death.

The title of the announcement, by the way, actually did not refer to Lenin as, say, "Founder of the Soviet Union/RSFSR", "Bolshevik leader", "Chairman of the Sovnarkom" or anything like that. No. It referred to him as the "founder of the Russian Federation".

That's the KPRF for you. Nationalist scumbags.

Anyway, thought someone might find this funny, and it's kinda on-topic.

To quote the first paragraph of State & Revolution;
What is now happening to Marx's theory has, in the course of history, happened repeatedly to the theories of revolutionary thinkers and leaders of oppressed classes fighting for emancipation. During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the “consolation” of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it. Its really no surprise the Russian nationalists would be doing the same exact thing with Lenin that Lenin himself explained the Second Internationalists were doing with Marx during WWI.

[Hermes]

Doesn't 'common' burial actually seep a lot of the chemicals pumped into the body (these days) into the ground?

Or am I terrifically wrong?

--

Nevermind, I think I'm terribly wrong.

[Let's Get Free]

I guess people got tired of waiting for him to come back to life to lead the oppressed masses to a glorious socialist future.

[Art Vandelay]

In all honesty I don't really care what they do with him, he's dead it doesn't really matter.

[zimmerwald1915]

Doesn't 'common' burial actually seep a lot of the chemicals pumped into the body (these days) into the ground?

Or am I terrifically wrong?

--

Nevermind, I think I'm terribly wrong.
Even if it does the impact of the bodies is probably outweighed by the fertilizer and herbicides that get dumped onto modern cemeteries.

[Die Neue Zeit]

So having 'him' exhibited like a freak by the bourgeoisie is good 'PR'?

Lenin's mausoleum has always been an insult to the man's legacy. It should be demolished right away.

If you're for burying him, then I'm against demolishing the mausoleum. It should be transformed into a Victory Day memorial so that any political leadership can be politically incorrect by standing again on the rostrum for parades, instead of having no memorial guts by sitting down. Putin referred to "tradition" this past week, and I think trips to both the mausoleum and the tomb of the unknown soldier are a tradition worth reviving and combining.

[leninstalin1988]

NO Lenin's Body needs to stay inside Red Square

[Luffarn]

As much as I would like too someday see his body, if it was his will too be buried next too his mother I think that´s the only right thing too do.

[Nakidana]

NO Lenin's Body needs to stay inside Red Square

Why?

This is a discussion forum, not a petition. The least you could do is give a reason for your opinion. Saying "I don't think so." is hardly contributing.

[Geiseric]

As much as I would like too someday see his body, if it was his will too be buried next too his mother I think that´s the only right thing too do.

Why do you want to see lenin's body? It was used as a tourist attraction...

[Young12Messiah73]

I think they should bury next to his mother. He wanted it, and it's be better if some fascists try to do something to him.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I guess people got tired of waiting for him to come back to life to lead the oppressed masses to a glorious socialist future.

Well, they say life imitates art...

kn1epro4xCE