a question for you the believers

[Nordic Rebel]

These are questions I've been thinking about for quite a while.

As most of us here have a hope for a better more equal world it beggs the questions:

How do you integrate that with the typically reactionary views that are the core of most major religions? and
if you are a member of some form of organised religion: How does it feel to be a member in (and possibly help fund) a community that has values and teachings that differ often greatly from the ideal of a more equal society?

I have been thinkinq this mainly from the point of view of Cristianity and come to the conclucion that it is impossible to integrate the two ideological systems together. So i've decided to give up religion and leave the church because I dont want to be a part of an community whos ideas are basicly opposite from mine.

I'm asking these questions because I'm intressed in seeing what other people have came up with and how
and why they've come to their conclutions.

(sorry for any bad grammar or spelling for I'm quite tired and english isn't my first language)

[Hate Is Art]

How do you integrate that with the typically reactionary views that are the core of most major religions?

I don't, religion IMO is holding back the oppressed peoples of the world, the catholic church is mainly to blame. I believe people should be free to choose their own religion though as long as they dont try to indoctrinate ANYONE!


have been thinkinq this mainly from the point of view of Cristianity and come to the conclucion that it is impossible to integrate the two ideological systems together. So i've decided to give up religion and leave the church because I dont want to be a part of an community whos ideas are basicly opposite from mine.


Well done you have seen the light brother, praise the lord&#33; <_<

[cormacobear]

500 years ago a large portion of the Vaticans money went to support her armies, now the Vatican is the largest hummanitarian organization in the world. So I like to think that things are improving. The doctrin is more open to personal interpretation than ever before, and I find the new testament supports my far left views. But I do feel that change will only come about with sepperation of church and state. Religion is just a group of people with similair beleifs and values. That system of values is represented when we vote, and change within the church while slow occurs when the community puts preasure on the clergy to make those changes. I think that religion can have a place in an equal society just hopefully not a very political one.

[Hoppe]

I believe people should be free to choose their own religion though as long as they dont try to indoctrinate ANYONE&#33;

But then, how are all these people going to follow your revolution? How will you teach children classconciousness?

[Hate Is Art]

I think if people had all the infomation on communism they would become class concious, people don&#39;t want to oppressed do they and the majority of people aren&#39;t the ones at the top, who would be gone by the end of the revolution anyway. This just leaves the middle classes and working classes to be educated about communism and if they see how they were oppressed I think they would logicaly choose communism.

I may be being a bit naive but then thats what I believe.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

WE&#39;RE ALL HYPOCRITES TO A CERTAIN EXTENT
ALL YOU CAN DO IS TRY TO BE AS PURE AS YOU CAN
BUT THAT ALMOST SOUNDS TOO CATHOLIC FOR ME TO HAVE SAID

[Rastaman]

i think people who arnet communist are either rich or stupid.. flame me if u wish hoppe.

[James]

I have been thinkinq this mainly from the point of view of Cristianity and come to the conclucion that it is impossible to integrate the two ideological systems together. So i&#39;ve decided to give up religion and leave the church because I dont want to be a part of an community whos ideas are basicly opposite from mine.


Well i am certainly no expert (after reading one or two gospels), but from what i gathered from the teachings of Jesus - it is very easy to link it to socialism.
Although many drop parts, and can easily link it to a very selfish and elite society.

One could argue it is a socialist piece of literature.

For example, Jesus says it is easier for a Camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter heaven.
If you then link this to the "gospel" of Thomas* (which the catholic church chose to leave out of the bible); which teaches the kingdom of god is all around you - here and now...
"lift a rock and you will find me; break a stick and i am there" (or something...)
- This very basic link that i am using as an example, to show how religion can be "socialist", suggests heaven is God&#39;s society; and the kingdom of God is here. Right now. Not up in the sky, or below the ocean.

Jesus also taught against organised religion - look in the gospels. He said prostitutes were getting into heaven before the preists&#33;

You have a teaching that tells you to live in the here and now, not for money; but in co-operation and love of your brothers and sisters.
_ _ _

I&#39;ll just give you one quote that i love...

Hell is where all are sat around a table upon which there is the most magnificent feast. No one can reach their own mouths with the food however, as their arms are too long.
They starve in hell.

And heaven?
Well heaven is exactly the same. Only the people feed each other.

_ _ _

Thank you.

* For an online copy, see
http://www.gospelthomas.com/

[Bolshevika]

Christians serve the ruling class in the sense that they oppose revolutionary action.

Remember when Jesus said "What is Cesars is Cesars", well, as a socialist you should be against that. What is Ceasars was stolen from the people is what a socialist should believe.

Christians have a long history of "blessing" poverty, like Mother Therasa for example. She said things like "poverty is a gift from god", this is ridiculous.

Instead of fighting for justice, they simply wish to lie down and accept it. This is a very non-revolutionary attitude. Their ideas on womens rights, homosexuals, etc are also disgusting. This appeasement to the ruling class (mostly because people like the Pope were payed by the CIA to work against the government in Poland and win support of religious against socialism) comes from anciet times. Do you know why the religious appease the ruling class? Because they are the ruling class.

Most of the religious serve no use for the proletarian cause. They simply hinder us in achieving our goals, why should we accept them? They simply exploit, deceive, and lie to keep the ruling class, which mantains their temples and churches, in place.

[Rastaman]

christianity is an illusion chreated by the inevitable aristocracy to keep the poor in line.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 11:24 PM
500 years ago a large portion of the Vaticans money went to support her armies, now the Vatican is the largest hummanitarian organization in the world.
Perhaps in a very statistical, utilitarian sense, the Catholic Church could be considered humanitarian.

In my opinion, however, no amount of money the Church could ever give away remotely makes up for their condemnation of birth control and STD prevention. If the Church saved every penny that was donated to them, but promoted contraception, I bet they&#39;d be helping out quite a bit more.

Does anyone know if Liberation Theology is still a viable movement?

[Bolshevika]

Yes, it has some impact in places like Mexico, Peru, and Colombia, where nuns and priests take up arms in defense of landless peasants. Some rumor that even Comandante Marcos was a priest at one point.

Also, the Catholic church is a sham. There is a vatican bank that is rumored to contain riches dating back to the middle ages. Humanitarian? HA&#33; More like propagandists. "Here is food little African negro, Jesus sent it to you, here&#39;s a bible".

Why do you think Christianity is the largest religion in the world?

[SonofRage]

There are some religions that are very socially liberal. For example, Wicca. There is also the Unitarian Universalists who are basically non-dogmatic and are made of people of various faiths.

[James]

Remember when Jesus said "What is Cesars is Cesars", well, as a socialist you should be against that. What is Ceasars was stolen from the people is what a socialist should believe.

I believe it is more along the lines of;
give unto Ceasar, what is Ceasar&#39;s.

And the context you used the quote, is VERY misleading.
If you are going to quote - quote it all.
Its like me quoting che; - "I am not a liberator."
And leaving out - "Liberators do not exist. The people liberate themselves."

Leaving bits out can totally change the meaning of the message.

Your agenda has got in the way of reason. Please address it.


Instead of fighting for justice, they simply wish to lie down and accept it.

Pardon?
You can&#39;t just use the label "Christian", and mean all christians.

As i proved, you can interperet the bible into a very right wing or left wing piece.

Also i think you are getting society and a belief (christian religion) mixed up.

When christianity was in the minority (eg Rome), they did not act like they do now in America for example, when they have gigantic power, which they wish to hold onto.

Surely the USSR was anti revolutionary at times?
As was China?

Its power - the idea has little to do with it, in my opinion.


This is a very non-revolutionary attitude. Their ideas on womens rights, homosexuals, etc are also disgusting.

Oh what?
The bible which was written a few years back, states that homosexuality is wrong - and it argues this by saying man was created for woman, and vice versa. Thus homosexuality is going against the grain, and is not how god made people (or so conservative christians would argue).

If you don&#39;t like it, you don&#39;t have to follow the religion...
What happened to freedom of speech etc?
Let us not forget the liberal christians - you get gay priests for example.

Also one must remember that alot of the bible is written by people, who were slaves to their society, in a similar way we are now. Some beliefs you hold now, may seem barbaric in a few decades.
It&#39;s a case of using simple common sense.


Do you know why the religious appease the ruling class? Because they are the ruling class.

Okay we can take the USSR, or any other country; and we can say THAT is communism. ALL communism and socialism is this. This is the label which counts for all (like you have just done with christians).

Both you and i know this to be a foolish broad sweep - and illogical; plain wrong in fact.

You are guilty of this with christianity - read the gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke or John (and Thomas), and learn what the word was, supposedly from the horses mouth.

He preached against the established church and established religion- something that both you and i dislike the same. Thus all 3 of us (you, Jesus and i) are in agreement that at a broad level, the Catholic church etc, - established religion - is a bad level. And unproductive for everyone involved.

[Urban Rubble]

i think people who arnet communist are either rich or stupid.. flame me if u wish hoppe.

No need for Hoppe to do it, a fellow communist can do it just as well. That was a pretty idiotic and close minded statement. Do you really believe that ? That anyone who isn&#39;t a communist is either rich or stupid ?

My parents are not rich or stupid, they also are not communists. That was a very shitty example, but still. There are thousands of scientists who aren&#39;t communists, are they stupid ? College proffessors can hardly be called rich, if they aren&#39;t communists are they stupid ?

Do you actually think you are smarter than everyone who isn&#39;t a communist ? If so, you&#39;ve got a rude awakening coming.


As far as God, I believe in a God. Why ? I don&#39;t know, I just don&#39;t think that the world we inhabit "just happened" as many people do. I don&#39;t think the world just exploded out of space and sprouted all of this. I also believe god is subjective and non dogmatic. I don&#39;t believe in organzied religion. I believe in letting people believe what they want as long as they don&#39;t force it upon anyone.

[synthesis]

There is also the Unitarian Universalists who are basically non-dogmatic and are made of people of various faiths.

I used to belong to that church. It&#39;s the perfect religion for liberals. Personally, I have become disgusted with pretty much anything and everything liberal.


That was a pretty idiotic and close minded statement. Do you really believe that ? That anyone who isn&#39;t a communist is either rich or stupid ?

Is it really that bad of an assumption?

It&#39;s a pretty simple rationale. Unless you have wealth that should be redistributed to more deserving individuals, you do not have a logical reason to oppose socialism.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 09:09 PM
christianity is an illusion chreated by the inevitable aristocracy to keep the poor in line.

I use fancy words to sound intelligent too.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 07:12 PM
i think people who arnet communist are either rich or stupid.. flame me if u wish hoppe.
camarada
I&#39;m not gonna "flame you". I&#39;d just like to point out that some people would like to vote for their leaders. I am by no means a capitalist. I once was a dogmatic die-hard Communist. Now, ha, I&#39;m a democratic socialist. I&#39;m still hard core anti-capitalist. These days I just how important civil liberties are. No, I&#39;m not gonna flame you, I&#39;m gonna respect our differences for many reasons. The most important reason is: one part of my new principles is tolerence of others views. Yes, even tolerate fascist scum too. Another good reason is that we must work together to create a new world.
Just as I dont lash out angrily at your views, dont lash out at mine. We can talk civily.
paz, amor, y unidad
-petey

[Rasta Sapian]

religion is over-rated, god is under-rated. Its ok to beleive in spirituality, If you r a lone star, you will find your own way to give thanks and praise.

peace yall

[Domino]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 30 2003, 05:14 PM
I don&#39;t, religion IMO is holding back the oppressed peoples of the world, the catholic church is mainly to blame.
Thank you&#33; Finally, someone that agrees with that.

[James]

Rasta Sapian;
What do you believe religion to be?
I&#39;m interested in how you define it...