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View Full Version : Communism=Libertarianism... Mwahaha!!! Also, Marx sucks, Proudhon rulez, right?



Zulu
16th January 2013, 09:00
In continuation of my somewhat provocative assertion from another thread, which I don't want to derail any further, I'm putting out here excerpts from a paper I've read recently:


The position of Marx and Engels on distribution turns out in significant respects to be akin to that of the classical liberal economists Hayek and Mises. Of course, Marx predicted the collapse of capitalism and championed arrangements involving inter alia the abolition of money; I am not obviously identifying Marx with Mises and Hayek, only pointing to certain specific parallels reflecting the common ground that the capitalist system should not be tampered with, albeit for very different reasons.
Consider the incessant rejection by Engels and Marx of approaches to distribution under capitalism based on moral criteria relating to fairness. Such criteria are represented as short-sighted prejudice deriving from the competitive experience having no absolute justification. This was Friedrich von Hayeks position too...

I turn now to the binary approach to systems that emerges both in Engels and Marx and in Mises their insistence on pure communism and pure capitalism respectively the common position that there is no half-way house between fully-fledged capitalism and central control.
As for Marx an excellent instance of his concerns in this regard is provided by a letter of 1859 objecting to the "Proudhonist socialism now FASHIONABLE in France" that it "wants to retain private production while organising the exchange of private products, to have commodities but not money... ...Communism must above all rid itself of this "false brother""

This denial of a stable middle solution between systems is held in common with Marx and Engels with this difference, that Mises' concern was the fragility of capitalism and that of Marx and Engels the fragility of communism. Nonetheless, Marx's technical analysis of the control of bread prices is wholly in line with that of Mises.


Of particular significance for our present theme relating to "unexpected parallels" is Engels' insistance on the coordination function of markets in his criticism of Rodbertus' labour money, of which Hutchison has said without exaggeration that "Mises and Hayek could hardly have made the point more forcefully". And finally, note should here also be taken of an important observation by Vaughn regarding Hayek's emphasis on the limits of human knowledge in his technical essays on socialist planning:


Hayek was challenging not only the economics of central planning, but a particular way of conceptualizing economic theory. Economic planning requires not only the centralization of knowledge, but also the ability to identify what knowledge is worth centralizing. Yet Hayek believed that most economically useful knowledge is local, detailed, implicit and changeable. What kind of political economy indeed what kind of economic theory is relevant when economic actors possess knowledge like that?
It is precisely this perspective on "local, detailed, implicit and changeable" knowledge that in part determined Marx's rejection of rent-confiscation schemes the State did not have such knowledge.

www.gmu.edu/rae/archives/VOL17_1_2004/1_hollander.pdf


I would also like to quote Marx himself:


The banking system shows, furthermore, by substituting various forms of circulating credit in place of money, that money is in reality nothing but a particular expression of the social character of labour and its products, which, however, as antithetical to the basis of private production, must always appear in the last analysis as a thing, a special commodity, alongside other commodities.

Finally, there is no doubt that the credit system will serve as a powerful lever during the transition from the capitalist mode of production to the mode of production of associated labour; but only as one element in connection with other great organic revolutions of the mode of production itself. On the other hand, the illusions concerning the miraculous power of the credit and banking system, in the socialist sense, arise from a complete lack of familiarity with the capitalist mode of production and the credit system as one of its forms. As soon as the means of production cease being transformed into capital (which also includes the abolition of private property in land), credit as such no longer has any meaning. This, incidentally, was even understood by the followers of Saint-Simon. On the other hand, as long as the capitalist mode of production continues to exist, interest-bearing capital, as one of its forms, also continues to exist and constitutes in fact the basis of its credit system. Only that sensational writer, Proudhon, who wanted to perpetuate commodity-production and abolish money, was capable of dreaming up the monstrous credit gratuit, the ostensible realization of the pious wish of the petty-bourgeois estate.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch36.htm


Soooo...

The money no longer appears as a thing (that is, the money - as Marx understood them - has been abolished), and a system of free credit (fiat currency made out of thin air (http://www.gonzotimes.com/2012/06/fiat-currency-no-more-money-than-a-theatre-ticket-is/)) guides social distribution of commodities, which are still to a large extent privately produced. Of course, in practice there is not even a hint that this distribution may become more equalized someday, but still, the "monstrous" Proudhonist system seems to have been established...

greenjuice
16th January 2013, 09:20
Concerning the title, it's an interesting fact that the term Libertarian was coined by Joseph Dejacque to name his ideas, which were anarcho-communist.

Art Vandelay
16th January 2013, 14:14
Ummm I just read through all your quotes and in all honesty (perhaps I'm just dimwitted) I have no clue what you're getting at. But as far as the title and opening lines go, if you're referring to your post, in the past thread on deregulated capitalism, which I quoted and responded to, I must say again: just no.

P.S. Proudhon, despite being the first to call himself as such (and in earlier times being an influence), was not an anarchist, but a market socialist.

greenjuice
16th January 2013, 19:52
P.S. Proudhon, despite being the first to call himself as such (and in earlier times being an influence), was not an anarchistBeing that anarchism is an ideology that wants a non-hierarchical society, and that Proudhon proposed and fought for a non-hierarchical society, I don't see how he cannot be an anarchist.


but a market socialist.
Anarchists can favour markets, arkets (Bakuninist labour vaucher artificial markets) or moneyless communistic ecomonies, these are like anarachist "tendencies".

Zanthorus
17th January 2013, 14:26
Proudhon proposed and fought for a non-hierarchical society,

If your idea of a 'non-hierarchical' society includes the subjugation of women you must have a pretty unique view on what constitutes hierarchy :blink:

greenjuice
17th January 2013, 14:53
Being I said he was for non-hierarchical society and not non-hierarchical family/ marriage, and Proudhon was for a non-hierarchical economy and politics.

The marriage view was his contradiction, and that personal opinion of his doesn't have any weight on anarchism, he is the only anarchist thinker that supported patriarchy.

Thirsty Crow
17th January 2013, 14:58
Being I said he was for non-hierarchical society and not non-hierarchical family/ marriage, and Proudhon was for a non-hierarchical economy and politics.

The marriage view was his contradiction, and that personal opinion of his doesn't have any weight on anarchism, he is the only anarchist thinker that supported patriarchy.
So gender relations have nothing to do with the economy and politics?

Zanthorus
17th January 2013, 15:13
Being I said he was for non-hierarchical society and not non-hierarchical family/ marriage, and Proudhon was for a non-hierarchical economy and politics.

Last time I checked, the family is a social unit. Just ask your local conservative pundit if you don't believe me. That's some pretty twisted thinking you've got going on there if supporting hierarchical social relationships doesn't count if those relationships occur within the holy nexus of the bourgeois family, though on the other hand it would be pretty consistent with supporting a jumped up liberalism.

Far be it from me to question who Anarchists want to claim as one of their own I suppose. I just think claiming an end to hierarchy as a trans-historical moral principle by which all anarchists must abide and then going ahead and claiming that Proudhon's support of hierarchy magically doesn't count is kind of odd.

Zulu
17th January 2013, 15:17
I have no clue what you're getting at.

What I'm getting at is:

1) M&E's analysis is quite similar to that of Mises&Hayek's (who are considered gurus among libertarians and other Ronpaulists out there) and definitely closer to it than to any random socialist of your pick (including Proudhon).

2) History has proven that Marx was mistaken at least about the impossibility of Proudhon's system to be realized in practice. Imperialism with a little conscious help from socialists in Europe and Keynesians in the US has turned into something basically resembling it, albeit the ideal of a "fair distribution" has not been achieved, as Proudhon had hoped.

greenjuice
17th January 2013, 15:17
So gender relations have nothing to do with the economy and politics?They are certainly the same as them I think that they are not causally connected (in both direction) and I don't think that there is any necessary connection between them.


Last time I checked, the family is a social unit.
I obviously meant society as a whole in it's economic and political spheres.


That's some pretty twisted thinking you've got going on there if supporting hierarchical social relationships doesn't count
I did say that it is a contradiction to be for a non-hierarchical society and at the same time a hierarchical familiy/ marriage, and that he obviously had a personal view that contradicted his anarchistic view of the society.

Zanthorus
17th January 2013, 15:26
I obviously meant society as a whole in it's economic and political spheres.

Oops, forgot the difference between supporting hierarchy in society in the abstract and hierarchy in concrete social forms. Please, continue.

Sheepy
17th January 2013, 16:12
Anarchists can favour markets

No they don't. Anarchism is a form of socialism. "Anarcho-Capitalism" is only as anarchist as "National Socialism" was a form socialism, which you should know by now that it isn't even close.

greenjuice
17th January 2013, 16:16
I didn't say that "anarcho"-capitalism is a from of Anarchism, but that Anarchists can favour markets (consisting of workers' cooperatives), which is advocated by Anarchists called 'Mutualists' or 'Individualist Anarchists'.

Thirsty Crow
17th January 2013, 16:23
T
I did say that it is a contradiction to be for a non-hierarchical society and at the same time a hierarchical familiy/ marriage, and that he obviously had a personal view that contradicted his anarchistic view of the society.
It's not a contradiction - it's a meaningless phrase since in practice what is being advocated is a very much hierarchical society - since you really cannot divorce gender domination from social relations which actually comprise "society" along with the individuals participating in these. This domination does not stop at the door of a household.

If this is impossible for you to accept, then it would seem that you are far too dogmatic in defending anything labelled "anarchist" or "non-hierarchical", with the emphasis on "labelled".

The Garbage Disposal Unit
17th January 2013, 17:08
Arguably, fiat money is still backed by the military-industrial capacity of the state/state-capital, and does not emerge from "thin air" as weird libertarian gold-standard-fetishists like to imagine.

Also a market of workers' cooperatives is still not "anarchist" by any meaningful conception of the word. I'm honestly always confused by weird throwbacks who seem to have missed the last century of anarchist practice and theory. It's like, Proudhon? Do you actually know any anarchists, or did you learn your politics in a museum?

Zulu
17th January 2013, 18:31
Arguably, fiat money is still backed by the military-industrial capacity of the state/state-capital,

Commodity money also needs to be backed by military/police force of the state, or it will be simply stolen more often than not.





and does not emerge from "thin air" as weird libertarian gold-standard-fetishists like to imagine.


Marx himself definitely falls in this category of gold standard fetishists:

"it should always be borne in mind that, in the first place, money — in the form of precious metal — remains the foundation from which the credit system, by its very nature, can never detach itself". (Marx's emphasis)

That Jehu Eaves guy, whose article I linked in the OP, elaborates on this subject quite well, I suggest everybody go read him (despite my not sharing some of his other positions).


I also suggest taking a look at this article by Kautsky (http://marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1912/xx/gpcc.htm), in which he, arguing from the orthodox Marxist standpoint, tears up Hilferding's views on money, gold, value, prices and all... But now 100 years later, it's quite obvious it has panned out mostly the way Hilferding said it should.

greenjuice
17th January 2013, 19:17
since you really cannot divorce gender domination from social relations which actually comprise "society" along with the individuals participating in these.
I am unaware of any laws of nature making it impossible for a society composed of patriarchal families to have an economy of self-managed workers.


Also a market of workers' cooperatives is still not "anarchist" by any meaningful conception of the word
Being that anarchism about absense of hierarchy, any economy without workers having bosses (but being self-managed) whether it's a market economy, a communal arket (artificial market) economy, or a communal moneyless one, that's a non-hierarchical economy, and thus qualifies as anarchistic.

The Garbage Disposal Unit
17th January 2013, 21:11
I am unaware of any laws of nature making it impossible for a society composed of patriarchal families to have an economy of self-managed workers.


Being that anarchism about absense of hierarchy, any economy without workers having bosses (but being self-managed) whether it's a market economy, a communal arket (artificial market) economy, or a communal moneyless one, that's a non-hierarchical economy, and thus qualifies as anarchistic.

You're using a wildly sexist notion of work, that doesn't include, for example, huge quantities of women's "private" labour. Of course a patriarchal family can't coexist with workers self-management, because men continue to manage women's labour.

Also, could you please go meet some anarchists who live in this century? You sound like you're quoting a first-year polisci textbook.

greenjuice
20th January 2013, 12:52
Good point. I guess that patriacharists would say that housework is separated from the general economy.

The only anarchist organization in my city has about couple of dozen members, and they're all bourgeois kids, I'd be the oldest and the only working class guy there.

Tim Cornelis
20th January 2013, 13:00
Proudhon was an anarchist who did not push his own reasoning to its logical conclusion. It is possible to defy your own premise without suspending your belief in said premise -- it only makes you inconsistent.


The only anarchist organization in my city has about couple of dozen members, and they're all bourgeois kids, I'd be the oldest and the only working class guy there.

I find it hard to believe that these "kids", teenagers presumably, own and manage means of production and employ others.

How often I've seen the words "petite-bourgeois" and "bourgeois" thrown around without basis.

Strannik
20th January 2013, 13:08
My guess: it's about value theories. Original labour theory of value belongs actually to classical liberalism, even when socialists usually defend it. Marx pointed out that value is determined by socially necessary labour time, not just what capitalists/money holders deem necessary. Mises and Hayek focus (in a strange way) to other component of value - it's social necessity. They claim, that this is all that counts, no labour time needed, thank you. In this manner they can present distribution of resources under capitalism as "socially necessary" - a billionaire is awarded their billions by society as a whole. Here Marx, I think, would indeed point out that labour time is a necessary component of value. While working faster might rise the overall social value of work (and increase price), this is not a linear relationship since at some point working faster brings with it decrease of social value in some other sector - social "necessity" begins to fall. And when labour time reaches zero there is no way that someone's contribution was socially necessary - it is not tied to any value-creating activity.

Therefore it seems to me, that Marx's value theory is not one or the other bourgeois value theory, but connects the two into a logical whole.

greenjuice
20th January 2013, 13:55
Proudhon was an anarchist who did not push his own reasoning to its logical conclusion.
Yes, nicely said.


I find it hard to believe that these "kids", teenagers presumably, own and manage means of production and employ others.
They all have ~20 years. They are not themselves bourgeois, but kids of the bourgeois, I can't say for all of them, but for those that I know, they come from rich manager or capitalist families and don't have a working day in their lives (they're not so sucessful students). I just really don't have what to look for with that kind of organisation.

Zulu
20th January 2013, 14:25
connects the two into a logical whole.

I concur and think that this is quite an important observation, which hasn't been getting all the attention and elaboration it deserves.