berlin activists start campaing to destroy surveilancecamera's ahead of police summit

[Sasha]

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German activists start campaign to destroy surveillance cameras

By Samantha Kimmey
Sunday, January 13, 2013 21:05 EST


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/cameras.jpg
Topics: security cameras (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/tag/security-cameras/) ♦ surveillance cameras (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/tag/surveillance-cameras/)


German activists are attempting to destroy security cameras in anticipation of the European Police Congress in Berlin in February, according to Michael Ebeling, an opponent of public surveillance writing for France 24′s The Observers (http://observers.france24.com/content/20130111-security-cameras-german-activists-camover-hanover-vandalism-european-police-congress-berlin-blog-surveillance).
The group organizing the actions, CAMOVER, believe such cameras lead police to discriminate and use stereotypes in search of criminals and criminal activity. They are encouraging people to participate (http://camover.blogsport.de/spielidee/idea-of-the-game/) in the “game” until Feb. 19, when the congress convenes.
A debate over surveillance cameras was ignited in late 2012 after an attempted bomb attack in a Bonn train station, when cameras did not store recordings of the station and so police had no images of potential suspects or of the bomb being planted.
The country’s Interior Ministry claims the cameras have been shown to reduce crime by almost 20 percent.

[Os Cangaceiros]

This has been something I've been interested in actually, a sustained campaign to destroy and/or severely hinder the survelliance state.

I think that a lot of non-radicals would support such an effort, too.

[Art Vandelay]

Can anyone fill me in on what happens at the end of the video? Is it the guy in orange who was on the train with them that starts chasing them? Or is it some type of law enforcement waiting for them to get off?

Good work, however.

[Sea]

There are some pretty cheap 1500+mw infrared laser diodes available online, and I've been thinking of picking one up with a lens assembly for testing what they can do to those surveillance cameras that I legally own (and can therefore legally destroy).

The risk of eye damage would be pretty significant though..

[Ravachol]

There are some pretty cheap 1500+mw infrared laser diodes available online, and I've been thinking of picking one up with a lens assembly for testing what they can do to those surveillance cameras that I legally own (and can therefore legally destroy).

The risk of eye damage would be pretty significant though..

Most high-end CCTV cameras have recalibrating intensity filters against this sort of thing as well as IR-cut filters avoid being blotted out (temporarily) by laserpointers.

[Sasha]

Yup, piece of cardboard on a stick, or even better a spraycan on a stick are still the most reliable sollutions. Although the paint filled fire extinguisher used in the vid is dear to me too..

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Epic anarchist activism!

[Clarion]

Petty vandalism isn't a revolutionary act. It's an infantile act of individualism.

What is this expected to achieve?

[Sasha]

Petty vandalism isn't a revolutionary act. It's an infantile act of individualism.

What is this expected to achieve?

So what have you been doing lately?

[Clarion]

Not engaging in ad hominen for a start. What I have or have not been doing is not relevant.

[Art Vandelay]

Not engaging in ad hominen for a start. What I have or have not been doing is not relevant.

Protecting radicals from police surveillance (thus giving them an opportunity to increase the struggle), before an upcoming police summit, is totally 'infantile individualism.' :rolleyes:

[Clarion]

I'm glad you agree.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm glad you agree.

Answering tongue and cheek, with tongue and cheek?

[Ravachol]

What I have or have not been doing is not relevant.

Wise words.

[Clarion]

You're right, of course.

I should be winning workers to the cause be acting like a juvenile delinquent.


I will abandon my work in the labour movement and community forthwith.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

You're right, of course.

I should be winning workers to the cause be acting like a juvenile delinquent.


I will abandon my work in the labour movement and community forthwith.
Dude, are you a cop? These 'delinquents' are saving many people a lot of fucking trouble.

[Art Vandelay]

Dude, are you a cop? These 'delinquents' are saving many people a lot of fucking trouble.

Apparently he doesn't care about workers being fucked over by the state for engaging in class struggle.

[Clarion]

Dude, are you a cop? These 'delinquents' are saving many people a lot of fucking trouble.
No, they're bringing the movement into disrepute, they're not saving us trouble they're causing it.

Undercover cops don't condemn such actions, as often as not they're the ones carrying them out.

When blows are struck between protesters and cops outside this kind of meeting, whether the first blow is struck by uniformed cops, agent provocateurs or some hot-headed idiot who thinks he's a revolutionary, they point to shit like this and say, "see, they came looking for trouble!"

And clearly in the case of some they will be right.

The rest of us, those of us who try to propose non-reformist solutions to the problems faced by workers, do so against the force of such embarrassing associations.


Apparently he doesn't care about workers being fucked over by the state for engaging in class struggle.

I'm sorry, I didn't reallise the German proletariat had resolved to resort to vandalising public transport as a means of class struggle.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm sorry, I didn't reallise the German proletariat had resolved to resort to vandalising public transport as a means of class struggle.

Generally radicals are members of the working class, seeing as how given their views, they tend not to reinvest capital and employ wage labor. So yes it would appear that a certain segment of the German proletariat has done just that.

[Art Vandelay]

No, they're bringing the movement into disrepute, they're not saving us trouble they're causing it.

Undercover cops don't condemn such actions, as often as not they're the ones carrying them out.

When blows are struck between protesters and cops outside this kind of meeting, whether the first blow is struck by uniformed cops, agent provocateurs or some hot-headed idiot who thinks he's a revolutionary, they point to shit like this and say, "see, they came looking for trouble!"

And clearly in the case of some they will be right.

The rest of us, those of us who try to propose non-reformist solutions to the problems faced by workers, do so against the force of such embarrassing associations.

Dude were fucking communists, were never going to get good publicity. Get over it. I'm sick of seeing people go on railing about this.

[thriller]

Petty vandalism isn't a revolutionary act. It's an infantile act of individualism.

What is this expected to achieve?

You should probably read the article that psycho quoted. They are destroying surveillance cameras that the bourgeois state use to show police who to attack. The cameras obviously won't destroy themselves and there are thousands of them in Berlin, it takes time.
What is it expected to achieve? Well obviously they are trying to undo surveillance of the bourgeois state. You do know what a camera is right?

[Clarion]

Generally radicals are members of the working class, seeing as how given their views, they tend not to reinvest capital and employ wage labor. So yes it would appear that a certain segment of the German proletariat has done just that.


Well, many "radicals" particularly of this kind are students and others who aren't directly invested in the labour process. But putting that possibility aside, that "certain segment" thing is really a big issue. This is action by a few individuals to satisfy some revolutionist reflex. It isn't mass action and it doesn't serve to facilitate such action. It's completely alienated from organised class politics.


Dude were fucking communists, were never going to get good publicity. Get over it. I'm sick of seeing people go on railing about this.

Speak for yourself. Many Communists are among the most highly respected members of the labour movement, even those with fairly dodgy politics. You'll find that people are much more receptive to your ideas if you don't act like a angsty teenager.


You should probably read the article that psycho quoted. They are destroying surveillance cameras that the bourgeois state use to show police who to attack. The cameras obviously won't destroy themselves and there are thousands of them in Berlin, it takes time.
What is it expected to achieve? Well obviously they are trying to undo surveillance of the bourgeois state. You do know what a camera is right?

Then they will fail as they will never destroy every camera in Berlin.

[Art Vandelay]

The left never ceases to amaze me. Activists destroying state surveillance and people find reasons to complain.

[thriller]

Well, many "radicals" particularly of this kind are students and others who aren't directly invested in the labour process.

Then they will fail as they will never destroy every camera in Berlin.

Source and statistics or bull.

Well obviously their goal isn't to destroy every camera in Berlin, or else they would have smashed theirs.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Well, many "radicals" particularly of this kind are students and others who aren't directly invested in the labour process. But putting that possibility aside, that "certain segment" thing is really a big issue. This is action by a few individuals to satisfy some revolutionist reflex. It isn't mass action and it doesn't serve to facilitate such action. It's completely alienated from organised class politics.



Speak for yourself. Many Communists are among the most highly respected members of the labour movement, even those with fairly dodgy politics. You'll find that people are much more receptive to your ideas if you don't act like a angsty teenager.



Then they will fail as they will never destroy every camera in Berlin.

Highly respected members of the labour movement? Go fuck yourself. These people aren't idiots who run around tipping cars - they're quite clearly engaging in active sabotage as a response to a very real political threat in Berlin. The fact that you dismiss these kinds of people as angsty teenagers speaks volumes about your politics.

[Clarion]

Source and statistics or bull.

I'm not the one who claimed that they are members of the working class. I suggested that they could easily not be and that it doesn't matter if they are. The burden of proof isn't on me.


These people aren't idiots who run around tipping cars - they're quite clearly engaging in active sabotage as a response to a very real political threat in Berlin.

Ah, yes. The path to revolution rooted a few self-appointed revolutionaries making everyone else look bad through a highly ineffective, and probably insincere, strategy of property damage. I'm sure that won't be counter-productive.


The fact that you dismiss these kinds of people as angsty teenagers speaks volumes about your politics.

Yes, the the ordinary workers I engage in politics with would no doubt agree. That's why I'm taken seriously.

[thriller]

I'm not the one who claimed that they are members of the working class. I suggested that they could easily not be and that it doesn't matter if they are. The burden of proof isn't on me.

Well if the majority of the people of the world are members of the working class, then mathematically, these people are more than likely to be members of the working class. But I digress...
The point is, I don't think this campaign is about liberating the proletariat. It's about causing some slow down and hardships to the state, especially one that is hosting a pig fest next month. It's an isolated struggle against a specific process and practice, not an over-arching plan to involve the masses.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm not the one who claimed that they are members of the working class. I suggested that they could easily not be and that it doesn't matter if they are. The burden of proof isn't on me.

I never said that those two were for sure were members of the working class. I said that generally speaking activists (given their political leanings) are members of the working class.

[Clarion]

The point is, I don't think this campaign is about liberating the proletariat. . . It's an isolated struggle against a specific process and practice, not an over-arching plan to involve the masses.

Precisely my point.


It's about causing some slow down and hardships to the state

And an extra drain on workers' taxes. At least that's how most members of the working class will see it. This isn't about organising the working class, I know, that's fine, it doesn't have to be. But then we're not going to agree because we clearly have different objectives.


especially one that is hosting a pig fest next month

Please, that's no way to refer to our fellow workers. Comradely language is one of the few things under capitalism that costs nothing.

[Art Vandelay]

Precisely my point.



And an extra drain on workers' taxes. At least that's how most members of the working class will see it. This isn't about organising the working class, I know, that's fine, it doesn't have to be. But then we're not going to agree because we clearly have different objectives.



Please, that's no way to refer to our fellow workers. Comradely language is one of the few things under capitalism that costs nothing.

Brutal, but not surprising, it fits in well wit the rest of your politics. They're not workers in uniforms, they're bourgeois cops. Pigs.

[Clarion]

They're not bourgeois, they're employees of the bourgeoisie (via their state). Just the same as all other workers.

[Art Vandelay]

They're not bourgeois, they're employees of the bourgeoisie (via their state). Just the same as all other workers.

'The worker who becomes a policeman in the service of the capitalist state, is a bourgeois cop, not a worker.' Leon Trotsky; What Next?; 1932.

They're class traitors and deserved to be treated as such.

[Clarion]

We could argue about the meaning of that quote in context but there's very little point, I don't bow down before sacred scripture.

[Art Vandelay]

We could argue about the meaning of that quote in context but there's very little point, I don't bow down before sacred scripture.

You don't have to. It's pretty common sense to Marxists that cops, despite their proletarian background, act in the interest of capital and are class traitors.

[Clarion]

All workers work in the interests of capital, they aren't employed by it for nothing! The factory worker works in the interests of capital, as does the nurse, the secretary and the cop.

[Art Vandelay]

All workers work in the interests of capital, they aren't employed by it for nothing! The factory worker works in the interests of capital, as does the nurse, the secretary and the cop.

Except the cop's job is to preserve the existing state of things. ACAB.

[Clarion]

The job of the nurse employed by the state healthcare system and of the driver on the state owned trains is to preseve capitalism, the capitalist state doesn't provide these services out of the kindness of its warm heart, it does so because providing such services has long been part of the capitalist strategy to smooth the running of the accumulation of capital (in part by preventing the rise of militancy).

[thriller]

Precisely my point.

And an extra drain on workers' taxes. At least that's how most members of the working class will see it. This isn't about organising the working class, I know, that's fine, it doesn't have to be. But then we're not going to agree because we clearly have different objectives.

Please, that's no way to refer to our fellow workers. Comradely language is one of the few things under capitalism that costs nothing.

Alright, I understand that your point is that this campaign is not aimed directly at the over-throw of capitalism.

However, (and pardon my French), I'll say whatever the fuck I want to.

[Art Vandelay]

The job of the nurse employed by the state healthcare system and of the driver on the state owned trains is to preseve capitalism, the capitalist state doesn't provide these services out of the kindness of its warm heart, it does so because providing such services has long been part of the capitalist strategy to smooth the running of the system.

That's not a good argument at all. You seriously want to try and make that case? For your sake, I'd suggest you don't. The notion that a nurse and cop are both equally preserving the state is laughable.

[Clarion]

However, (and pardon my French), I'll say whatever the fuck I want to. You have the right to say it and I have the right to call you out on it.


That's not a good argument at all. You seriously want to try and make that case? For your sake, I'd suggest you don't. The notion that a nurse and cop are both equally preserving the state is laughable.

Why? Because one does so more directly than the other?

[Sasha]

Pigs is a completely accepetable term for cops arround here, i wouldnt go so far as saying mandetory (as there are plenty of other collorful terms for them and its kind of insulting to real pigs) but you better get used to it because its far more acceptable than your "fellow workers" bs.

[Art Vandelay]

Why? Because one does so more directly than the other?

Because one militantly enforces bourgeois hegemony; they terrorize and cage the proletariat; they are literally the domestic army of the bourgeoisie; they are scum.

[l'Enfermé]

The different between cops and nurses, mate, is that nurses don't beat workers down with their batons or shoot them with rubber bullets when workers rise up against the hegemony of capital. In fact usually nurses are the ones that help treat workers after cops brutalize them.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

The job of the police is to enforce bourgeois law. Our goal as communists is to abolish the power of the bourgeoisie. Therefore, the police inherently stand against us.

[Clarion]

They are workers who sell their labour power, our issue is with the bourgeoisie ownership of that labour power and the purposes they set it towards, not the worker who takes the job.

Does the job tend to attract bullies and those of an unhealthily authoritarian personality? Yes, it does. But others also go into it out of a genuine desire to keep their communities safe from crime.

Being a marxist I am not particularly concerned with their motives or on moralistically passing judgement on how they manage to earn a living.



Yes, their job inevitably pits them against us. That doesn't mean they aren't workers.

[thriller]

They are workers who sell their labour power, our issue is with the bourgeoisie ownership of that labour power and the purposes they set it towards, not the worker who takes the job.

Does the job tend to attract bullies and those of an unhealthily authoritarian personality? Yes, it does. But others also go into it out of a genuine desire to keep their communities safe from crime.

Being a marxist I am not particularly concerned with their motives or on moralistically passing judgement on how they manage to earn a living.

Yes, their job inevitably pits them against us. That doesn't mean they aren't workers.

I would argue that many cops are probably not authoritarian at the beginning of their police career, but the social structure of their job (both people they work with, for, and against) tends to lead them that way. The very purpose of social systems in capitalism, especially jobs, is too make the masses act and think a certain way (usually favorable to the ruling class).

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Yes, their job inevitably pits them against us. That doesn't mean they aren't workers.
Of course, they draw wage and perform menial tasks on orders from above but then so do scabs. The difference between police and workers is that workers produce value whereas police simply defend the bourgeoisie's 'right' to own that value. Some on this board might oppose police because of personal or moralistic reasons but most oppose them in the same way we oppose 'benevolent' capitalists who give millions to charities. They might individually be alright people but that doesn't change the fact that their entire livelihood revolves around defending what we seek to destroy.

[Let's Get Free]

The difference between police and workers is that workers produce value whereas police simply defend the bourgeoisie's 'right' to own that value.

To be fair, there are many workers who do not produce value

[o well this is ok I guess]

Petty vandalism isn't a revolutionary act. It's an infantile act of individualism.

What is this expected to achieve? Vandalizing a starbucks window might be a little petty. CCTV's, on the other hand, are a means by which the police actively monitor the population.

But I mean go on raising the red flag at swp marches or some shit. That's some real material action right there.

[Sea]

Clarion, how is dismantling surveillance equipment tantamount to vandalism or individualism? It's not motivated by an individual's silly desire to destroy, it's motivated by politics, and as such I would classify it as a revolutionary act. It's not nearly as big of an act as reclaiming an entire city but it's every bit as revolutionary in character.

I suppose I could see what you mean by vandalism in the strictest sense, but it's certainly not vandalism-as-such seeing as it serves a purpose.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Vandalizing a starbucks window might be a little petty. CCTV's, on the other hand, are a means by which the police actively monitor the population.

Yeah, I don't get what Clarion doesn't understand about this. The survelliance system in his own country, specifically in London, is considered something of a model for authoritarian states, many of which have actually sent representatives to England to study it. But yeah, none of that has anything to do with re-enforcing the power of the capitalist state. :rolleyes:

[Art Vandelay]

Yeah, I don't get what Clarion doesn't understand about this. The survelliance system in his own country, specifically in London, is considered something of a model for authoritarian states, many of which have actually sent representatives to England to study it. But yeah, none of that has anything to do with re-enforcing the power of the capitalist state. :rolleyes:

I get the feeling that he's masquerading as a leftist in all honesty.

[Clarion]

I would argue that many cops are probably not authoritarian at the beginning of their police career, but the social structure of their job (both people they work with, for, and against) tends to lead them that way.

Indeed.


Of course, they draw wage and perform menial tasks on orders from above but then so do scabs.

Scabs are workers. We don't condone their actions but that doesn't change their class status, if they weren't proletarian they wouldn't need to scab, after all.


The difference between police and workers is that workers produce value whereas police simply defend the bourgeoisie's 'right' to own that value.In stopping people smashing store windows, shop lifting at will etc. they enable the sale of commodities just as much as the person on the checkout. In both cases their labour does add to the value of the commodities as they are necessary for the completion of the whole production and sale process.

How much of that labour would actually be necessary in a post-capitalist society is, of course, a different question. This added social cost is an example of the kind of inbuilt inefficiencies of capitalism which will one day lead to it being superseded.


As is the surveillance state.


Some on this board might oppose police because of personal or moralistic reasons but most oppose them in the same way we oppose 'benevolent' capitalists who give millions to charities. They might individually be alright people but that doesn't change the fact that their entire livelihood revolves around defending what we seek to destroy.What I was objecting to wasn't criticism of the institution or pointing out the role played by the police in a capitalist society, it was the vitriol directed at the persons themselves.


Vandalizing a starbucks window might be a little petty. CCTV's, on the other hand, are a means by which the police actively monitor the population.


I'm not disputing the role played by those cameras, I'm just taking issue with the strategy of a few self-appointed revolutionaries taking it upon themselves to smash them.


But I mean go on raising the red flag at swp marches or some shit. That's some real material action right there.
I don't do ineffective sectarian politics, not in SWP or black bloc flavours.



Clarion, how is dismantling surveillance equipment tantamount to vandalism or individualism? It's not motivated by an individual's silly desire to destroy,


I'd be surprised if that didn't play a role in it, but whatever, I'll take your word for it.



it's motivated by politics, and as such I would classify it as a revolutionary act. It's not nearly as big of an act as reclaiming an entire city but it's every bit as revolutionary in character.
Doesn't a revolutionary act have to actually further the cause of revolution? Does it further the cause of revolution or set it back? It won't exactly endear most of the working class to revolutionary politics so it would seem to be objectively counter-revolutionary.


I suppose I could see what you mean by vandalism in the strictest sense, but it's certainly not vandalism-as-such seeing as it serves a purpose.
Futile gesture politics?


Yeah, I don't get what Clarion doesn't understand about this. The survelliance system in his own country, specifically in London, is considered something of a model for authoritarian states, many of which have actually sent representatives to England to study it. But yeah, none of that has anything to do with re-enforcing the power of the capitalist state. :rolleyes:


I understand fully the role that surveillance plays in re-enforcing the power of the capitalist state. I'm sorry but if you wish to attack a straw man then you don't really need my half of the conversation, do you? At no point have I contested that surveillance cameras play that kind of role.


I get the feeling that he's masquerading as a leftist in all honesty.


And I get the feeling that you've lost sight of what we're trying to achieve and have allowed smashing shit up to become a substitute for the boring politics where you have to get your hands dirty working along side reformists and people who haven't even read Trotsky.

[Sam_b]

Being a marxist I am not particularly concerned with their motives or on moralistically passing judgement on how they manage to earn a living.

Yes, their job inevitably pits them against us. That doesn't mean they aren't workers.

Let's pretend for a second that we're not talking about cops. Let's replace 'cops' with 'strikebreakers' or 'scabs' here. Would you also be refraining from "moralistically passing judgement on how they manage to earn a living"?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I understand fully the role that surveillance plays in re-enforcing the power of the capitalist state. I'm sorry but if you wish to attack a straw man then you don't really need my half of the conversation, do you? At no point have I contested that surveillance cameras play that kind of role.

If you understand their negative impact, then why are you objecting to their destruction? Because you feel that ordinary people will feel alienated by omnipresent survelliance cameras being smashed? If you feel that smashing cameras has no positive bearing on revolutionary ambitions, then surely the opposite is true; that smashing cameras has no real consequence to revolutionary ambitions, seeing as how it's such a small and "meaningless" act, in the larger scheme of things. So why do you oppose it?

Destroy the infrastructure of the survelliance state and make sure people know why you're committing these acts. Then it's not pointless or nihilistic or whatever, then it's a meaningful political act w/ wider implications for society as a whole. Whether or not such an act gains "working class acceptance" is another matter, and one largely outside the control of pro-revolutionaries. Regardless I don't see any way it impedes revolution, certainly not anymoreso than whatever tactic the SPGB or whatever group you're affiliated with (if any) advocates.

[Clarion]

Let's pretend for a second that we're not talking about cops. Let's replace 'cops' with 'strikebreakers' or 'scabs' here. Would you also be refraining from "moralistically passing judgement on how they manage to earn a living"?

Maybe not, but I would be wrong in doing so. The problem of strike breaking won't be dealt with by passing moral judgement, it will be through organisation and politics. The detail of which would no doubt take this thread too far off topic.


To be clear, there's nothing wrong with deterring scabs at picket lines and more than there is with defending ourselves against police attacks on those lines. We just don't need the unconstructive moralising.



If you understand their negative impact, then why are you objecting to their destruction? Because you feel that ordinary people will feel alienated by omnipresent survelliance cameras being smashed?

They don't see pictured of angry young men smashing up cameras and think, yep I'll give serious consideration to their manifesto.


If you feel that smashing cameras has no positive bearing on revolutionary ambitions, then surely the opposite is true; that smashing cameras has no real consequence to revolutionary ambitions, seeing as how it's such a small and "meaningless" act, in the larger scheme of things. So why do you oppose it?I oppose it because it's counter-productive, it has a negative impact.


Destroy the infrastructure of the survelliance state and make sure people know why you're committing these acts.Ah yes, graffiti Orwell quotes on the station walls next to the cameras. Those commuters will be hanging their employers from the windows by lunchtime. . .


Then it's not pointless or nihilistic or whatever, then it's a meaningful political act w/ wider implications for society as a whole. Whether or not such an act gains "working class acceptance" is another matter, and one largely outside the control of pro-revolutionaries.These kind of tactics don't forward the revolution because they are minority actions, not class action. It's contributes nothing to the consciousness of the workers' movement but a general instinct to stay away from those "far-left hooligans."


Regardless I don't see any way it impedes revolution, certainly not anymoreso than whatever tactic the SPGB or whatever group you're affiliated with (if any) advocates.Again, another tiny sect with no relevance to the broader working class. Mind you, at least the SPGB don't pretend their achieving anything. As I said above, I don't do sectarian politics.

[Os Cangaceiros]

They don't see pictured of angry young men smashing up cameras and think, yep I'll give serious consideration to their manifesto.

I actually know a lot of people who do not like "survelliance society", and who not necessarily political. Privacy is still a concept that a lot of people appreciate, at least where I'm from.


I oppose it because it's counter-productive, it has a negative impact.

How does it negatively impact anything? Because it keeps people away from "the cause"? As if they're all just waiting for the right argument that fulfills their desire for a complete re-structuring of society, yet tastefully avoids even the most minimal of property destruction? Give me break. Our arguments are out there for free, for anyone who's inclined to read them. Once this fact is accepted, one also must accept the fact that the success or failure of our political project isn't entirely within our control. Committing a small political direct action like expropriating a supermarket or smashing a security camera doesn't really progress revolution, but neither does it impede it when we look at the fact that our conscious actions as leftists, while important, do not create a revolutionary movement on their own. (Helping orient a revolutionary movement is another topic...)


Ah yes, graffiti Orwell quotes on the station walls next to the cameras. Those commuters will be hanging their employers from the windows by lunchtime. . .

Now who's position is being strawmanned? :lol:


These kind of tactics don't forward the revolution because they are minority actions, not class action. It's contributes nothing to the consciousness of the workers' movement but a general instinct to stay away from those "far-left hooligans."

I don't really agree with this assertion at all, actually. My first interest in political issues came after the 1999 Seattle riot/police rampage. That's the sort of thing that attracted me to politics, not turned me away from it. I think that's how it is with a lot of the youth, actually. Also there have been "armed struggle" groups that have attracted significant measures of popular support, so I hardly think that something as minor as property destruction is something people intrinsically turn away from. In incidents of the past, like the Quebec student strike or the M30 Spanish strike or January 2011 in Egypt, there was tons of property destruction but no one cared. The trick is to tie whatever direct action you've participated in to a wider struggle, in order to give the act coherence and relevance.

[Clarion]

the success or failure of our political project isn't entirely within our control

I don't accept that. The left needs to own up to its mistakes and accept responsibility for the sorry state that its in. Only then can things imrpove.


I don't really agree with this assertion at all, actually. My first interest in political issues came after the 1999 Seattle riot/police rampage. That's the sort of thing that attracted me to politics, not turned me away from it. I think that's how it is with a lot of the youth, actually. Also there have been "armed struggle" groups that have attracted significant measures of popular support, so I hardly think that something as minor as property destruction is something people intrinsically turn away from

Substituting minority action for class action does encourage people, it encourages people to go out and substitute minority action for class action. There's just so much better people could be doing.


January 2011 in Egypt, there was tons of property destruction but no one cared.

What happened in Egypt was a revolution in progress, not a few individuals playing at one.

[Sasha]

Like? Slagging other leftists on the internet? I'm not joking, what are these meanigfull actions that further the class struggle? Because in all honesty looking at europe and the US autonomous and insurectionary activist anarchism seem to be the only radical left that atract a inspired, vibrant significant crowd that gets at least something done which could be seen as activity in a revolutionary framework, the rest of the left lost imho almost all claim to calling it self revolutionary, they either descendent into dead end reformism or insignificant sectarianism mistaking driving a split in another insigficant cult and stealing two of their members constitutes "party-building".

[Ravachol]

who cares about people like clarion tbh, they either end up as some petty low ranking union bureaucrat wasting away trying to sell their leftist rag of the proletarian communist party of proletarian communism (ML/Opposition Faction) to some other irrelevant union bureaucrats or they'll just stand by whenever shit hits the fan ready to condemn everyone who doesn't wave a placard or 'builds the party'. They're politically less relevant than some kid who dives dumpsters and listens to crass while spraypainting circle-A's on the walls of his high-school.

[Clarion]

I'm not interested in building some left wing sect or being a union bureaucrat. Many years ago I sold a newspaper, loyally attended every protest waving a placard and blowing my union whistle but I realised how futile all that was. I still show out to the big rallies out of solidarity but I'm not under the illusion that this kind of work tends to achieve anything.

My political work (which isn't my paid occupation) takes place firmly within the labour movement and the community, not with small groups miles outside of it. Direct action, self-proclaimed revolutionary sects, individual terrorism and guerillaism are all alienated from the working class and so can't be truly revolutionary as they don't advance the self-organisation and self-liberation of the working class.

Poking holes in what I do (and so far all your guesses as to what it is I actually do have been wrong) will not make your own tactics less ineffective.

[thriller]

To be clear, there's nothing wrong with deterring scabs at picket lines and more than there is with defending ourselves against police attacks on those lines.
Sorry, but I think you contradicted yourself. Destroying police surveillance cameras is a pre-emptive way of defending ourselves during strikes. Could the police use the cameras to pick out top organizers and detain them? You betcha. But you think it's wrong because some anarchist took the time to do it first?

@Ravachol I would say I care. I come here for debates with other leftists, even those who greatly disagree with me. It's stimulating for me to have to re-evaluate my position and explain myself more soundly. I think it can help us learn how to explain ourselves to non-leftists.

[Clarion]

Action by striking workers on the picket and action by a handful of self-appointed revolutionaries who presume to act on their behalf is the difference.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Petty vandalism isn't a revolutionary act. It's an infantile act of individualism.

What is this expected to achieve?

Smashing the tools of the State used for domination and oppression is an achievement in itself, is it not?

[Clarion]

What does it achieve other than self-gratification?

[Art Vandelay]

What does it achieve other than self-gratification?

A tangible detriment to the polices ability to identify activists.

[Clarion]

. . . and we cycle through this argument again.

I doubt we're going to agree by arguing the same points a second time.

[Art Vandelay]

Even if you don't care about those who you deem 'student activists' (without knowing whether or not that is true), its a tangible detriment to the polices ability to identify the militant workers who will confront the pigs during the upcoming law enforcement conference.

[Decolonize The Left]

. . . and we cycle through this argument again.

I doubt we're going to agree by arguing the same points a second time.

That's probably true. However I have read the whole thread, and since I wasn't a part of the earlier discussion I would like to pick up a few things.

In the first place, I support the actions demonstrated in the OP. So we disagree on the premise of the thread. You claim:

I'm not disputing the role played by those cameras, I'm just taking issue with the strategy of a few self-appointed revolutionaries taking it upon themselves to smash them.
Understood. So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that individual acts of revolt do not encourage non-revolutionary-minded working-class people to consider the prospects of leftism. In short, you'd say the acts of the individuals in the OP do not promote leftism in any meaningful sense, and in many ways detract from the overall goal of leftism which is working class solidarity. Am I correct?

Well I understand that argument. It's most commonly used against 'propaganda of the deed' types and in that context it is rather adequate. But unfortunately here it does not hold water.
The reason is because the individuals in the OP video aren't trying to actively sway large swaths of the working class to leftism. In fact, they are engaging in a very precise action with a precise target and a precise purpose: they are destroying the surveillance equipment of the state in preparation for an upcoming event where there will most likely be leftists engaged in open protest. In other words, it's strategically beneficial to destroy the cameras. Surely you see the strategy involved - no? So if you sit for a minute with just that fact, you'll see why it's a good idea to destroy the cameras.

In this instance, the goal isn't to mobilize the working class.
The goal is to attempt to protect those members of the working class who will be confronting the repressive apparatus of the state in a short time.

Diversity of tactics, my friend.

[thriller]

Action by striking workers on the picket and action by a handful of self-appointed revolutionaries who presume to act on their behalf is the difference.

This what I don't understand. If striking workers destroyed the cameras then the police would be able to charge all involved with destruction of property, vandalism, and inciting a riot and be able to effectively portray the strikers as enemies to the public which might lessen public support for the strike. But because you disagree with anarchists this situation is an advancement of the working class. I think you may be confusing class with politics. Disagree all you want with anarchism, this tactic can only help organize the working class simply by helping them evade the State more (even if it is on a small scale).

[Ele'ill]

What does it achieve other than self-gratification?

Praxis

(they removed and destroyed cameras used by the state to track militants both workers and non (ahead of a summit)(and even if they did it for the fun good for them(also, not every action by individuals has to advance some monolithic mass movement for it to better the lives of the individuals or others))

[Ravachol]

Action by striking workers on the picket and action by a handful of self-appointed revolutionaries who presume to act on their behalf is the difference.

So what's that been achieving lately? (Since we're apparently following the stupid line of mutually exclusive activity).

Also, I couldn't give two fucks about 'alienating the working class'. Fuck man, the working class alienates the working class most of the time. You act like its some kind of rock solid homogeneous body of masculine oiled men with big hammers and flat caps standing outside factory gates chewing tobacco and muttering 'those damn petit-bourgeois students and their alienating camera-smashing, I sure love me some CCTV! Don't you, comrade stakhnov?'. Strikes alienate the working class, marches alienate the working class, waving a placard and sending a letter to the daily mail alienate the working class and guess what, Capital alienates as well. Besides, most proles probably cheer on a CCTV camera being smashed or at the very least don't give two fucks (unless they're hella conservative old farty union hacks).

But whatever I guess this just doesn't 'build the community support' and doesn't 'strengthen the labor movement' and other such tried and true roads to communism.

[Ele'ill]

Well, many "radicals" particularly of this kind are students and others who aren't directly invested in the labour process.

there are a lot of students who are pretty pissed off at being a part of a labour process that leaves them nothing and costs a fortune




This is action by a few individuals to satisfy some revolutionist reflex. It isn't mass action and it doesn't serve to facilitate such action. It's completely alienated from organised class politics

not to be monitored by cops and intelligence, the state, and it did not take a boring mass mobilization to perform while actually having a specific purpose


Speak for yourself. Many Communists are among the most highly respected members of the labour movement, even those with fairly dodgy politics. You'll find that people are much more receptive to your ideas if you don't act like a angsty teenager.

But what you've just illustrated here is that mass organizing like that is kind of a neurosis of empire where quasi radical 'labour movement' knobs get to the top of what's basically the business model of organizing, to organize watery reforms while leading a lot of people down a road that is militantly non-revolutionary and completely dead end.




Then they will fail as they will never destroy every camera in Berlin.

lol but they probably destroyed most of the cameras in key areas where the summit will be held

[Niebuhr]

Funnily enough, speaking of the Summit itself, it will take place at ther BCC at the corners of the Alexanderstr. & Karl-Marx-Allee (formerly Stalinallee), where a great deal of the 1953 uprising against the East German government took place, and which Brecht commemorated in his poem Die Lösung, which features the famous lines, roughly translated, "If the people cannot redouble their efforts and win the confidences of the Government, Has It any choice but to dissolve the electorate and appoint a new one?"

On the subject of surveillance: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/25/who-can-fly-drones-uk-airspace

[LiveOnYourFeet]

Can anyone fill me in on what happens at the end of the video? Is it the guy in orange who was on the train with them that starts chasing them? Or is it some type of law enforcement waiting for them to get off?

Good work, however.

The guy in the orange would've stopped them on the train itself if he really wanted to, he wouldn't have waited for them to start running. Honestly he didn't look like he cared. Odds are it was a metro officer who was notified that they were on the train and waited at the station for the train to arrive, and that's probably why they pulled the "run like a bat out of hell" technique when the train stopped.

[Ele'ill]

here we go more camera disabling

http://pugetsoundanarchists.org/content/17-security-cameras-disabled-and-destroyed-puget-sound-region


In the opening weeks of February, 2013, we have removed and destroyed 17 security cameras throughout the Puget Sound region. This act is concrete sabotage against the system of surveillance and control. It is also a message of solidarity and a wish of strength to the Seattle Grand Jury Resisters, those currently incarcerated and those not. Finally, this act announces our participation in the game of CAMOVER (http://camover.noblogs.org/), called for by comrades in Germany. Barefoot Bandit Brigade, Puget Sound, USA