China Moving Towards Capitalism?

[JAC0BIN]

I have to write on this for a project. Most of the academic sources Ive come across take this as a final blow to Marxism, or a great global trend that will eventually end the 'tyranny' in china. I dont buy that but if Im to argue to the point Id like good book references.

I do believe that China has abandoned Marxism, but I want a notable communist view of this history.

Anyone help?
Any would be appreciated!

[Ostrinski]

Many of us would say that the PRC was never not capitalist. However, it has had a market economy for a few decades now. The question is phrased in a bizarre way so as to imply that it to this day has a non-capitalist system, which would need to be refuted. I would suggest for your paper that you make it your primary focus on deconstructing the premise rather than accepting it.

[JAC0BIN]

Many of us would say that the PRC was never not capitalist. However, it has had a market economy for a few decades now. The question is phrased in a bizarre way so as to imply that it to this day has a non-capitalist system, which would need to be refuted. I would suggest for your paper that you make it your primary focus on deconstructing the premise rather than accepting it.

No, I was referring to China's move following the sino/soviet split to ironically open up to the west and in particular the US.

Im not claiming the current government is marxist/communist/socialist of any sorts. I just need good book sources with a socialist historian of what has happened in china since the cultural revolution onward.

[Art Vandelay]

As Ostrinski said, you'll probably find that many of us have never considered China (post revolution) anything but capitalist. As I stated in another thread just a minute ago, the Chinese Revolution, was a peasant based movement; its class character was never proletarian.

[Ostrinski]

No, I was referring to China's move following the sino/soviet split to ironically open up to the west and in particular the US.

Im not claiming the current government is marxist/communist/socialist of any sorts. I just need good book sources with a socialist historian of what has happened in china since the cultural revolution onward.I would contact the user Hiero on this matter. Needless to say that his perspectives on the matter are vastly different than mine, but he will know of a lot of reading recommendations on the subject, he knows a lot about the Chinese revolution.

[Ostrinski]

Those damn capitalist roaders.coup d'etat, please refrain from making posts like this. I understand that it is a parody of Mao's paranoia over "capitalist roaders" but this doesn't do anything to help the OP or add to discussion on capitalism in China or help direct the OP toward somewhere where he might find sources on the matter.

This post constitutes a verbal warning to coup d'etat.

[Geiseric]

Well 51% of the chinese economy apparently are state enterprises, I like to see their situation like the N.E.P. when the soviet state was employing western "experts," to tell them how to build factories. Only in china, they have workers on a starvation wage with the worst possible living standards and no independent workers organizations. However the working class is gigantic, and will inevitably organize and clash with the CPC, like it did in Russia after World War II.

[ind_com]

Well 51% of the chinese economy apparently are state enterprises, I like to see their situation like the N.E.P. when the soviet state was employing western "experts," to tell them how to build factories. Only in china, they have workers on a starvation wage with the worst possible living standards and no independent workers organizations. However the working class is gigantic, and will inevitably organize and clash with the CPC, like it did in Russia after World War II.

The Chinese working class is already one of the most active sections of the international proletariat, in terms of protests and clashes with the government.

[Crux]

I have to write on this for a project. Most of the academic sources Ive come across take this as a final blow to Marxism, or a great global trend that will eventually end the 'tyranny' in china. I dont buy that but if Im to argue to the point Id like good book references.

I do believe that China has abandoned Marxism, but I want a notable communist view of this history.

Anyone help?
Any would be appreciated!
Well, I can give you a selection of what my chinese comrades has written on the subject:
There's this two-part from the summer of 2011 which goes a bit into the present situation (of course there are more recent articles on the site as well):
Is China facing a summer of discontent? (http://www.chinaworker.info/en/content/news/1496/)

China: Repression or ‘reform’? (http://www.chinaworker.info/en/content/news/1507/)



I'll try and dig up the longer articles on the economy and the transition to capitalism, they're on there somewhere but the search engine is being a bit wonky.
Oh yeah this (http://www.chinaworker.info/en/content/news/1924/)might be of interest too, because we argue, contrary to what the market liberals believe, that in fact the increased liberalization of the economy will, especially in these times of economic crisis, not lead to democratic reforms but instead more repression.

[Prof. Oblivion]

Well 51% of the chinese economy apparently are state enterprises, I like to see their situation like the N.E.P. when the soviet state was employing western "experts," to tell them how to build factories. Only in china, they have workers on a starvation wage with the worst possible living standards and no independent workers organizations. However the working class is gigantic, and will inevitably organize and clash with the CPC, like it did in Russia after World War II.

Where did you get this figure?

[Let's Get Free]

But yeah, China didn't "abandon Marxism." The Chinese revolution served to excise the very significant pre-capitalist elements present in China to allow capitalism to develop more freely

[Crabbensmasher]

China is one of the greatest ironies of the 21st century.
Anyway, yes, I believe their new generation of leadership has abandoned orthodox Marxism.

The funny thing is, China is far more similar today to the Nationalist State led my Chiang Kai Shek in the 1930s than any variation of a true communist state.

[Geiseric]

The chinese economy is like the N.E.P. without any of the benefits the working class in Russia got from the campaign to improve living conditions, and the 8 hour day that was instituted, among other things. It could be considered like that seeing as the state, not private institutions, make the economic decisions. As long as we realize that, these armchair leftist label arguments are superflous. The planned sector is roughly half of the economy, including private sector controlled by the state, according to a UC study, I can provide a link to when I get home.

[Red Banana]

a true communist state.

Huh? What is that?

[Art Vandelay]

China is one of the greatest ironies of the 21st century.
Anyway, yes, I believe their new generation of leadership has abandoned orthodox Marxism.

The funny thing is, China is far more similar today to the Nationalist State led my Chiang Kai Shek in the 1930s than any variation of a true communist state.

Communism is a stateless, classless society.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

China is already there.

[Prof. Oblivion]

The chinese economy is like the N.E.P. without any of the benefits the working class in Russia got from the campaign to improve living conditions, and the 8 hour day that was instituted, among other things. It could be considered like that seeing as the state, not private institutions, make the economic decisions. As long as we realize that, these armchair leftist label arguments are superflous. The planned sector is roughly half of the economy, including private sector controlled by the state, according to a UC study, I can provide a link to when I get home.

That would be nice.

[YugoslavSocialist]

China under Mao was a Bureaucratic Collectivist state. Then when Mao died the Ruling Chinese Bureaucracy introduced Market Reforms and has been bringing China back to Capitalism.

[Art Vandelay]

China under Mao was a Bureaucratic Collectivist state. Then when Mao died the Ruling Chinese Bureaucracy introduced Market Reforms and has been bringing China back to Capitalism.

How exactly does bureaucratic collectivism differ from state capitalism?

[Hit The North]

To the OP:

Go here (http://www.isj.org.uk/) and do a search for "China".

[YugoslavSocialist]

How exactly does bureaucratic collectivism differ from state capitalism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucratic_collectivism#Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy

[Sixiang]

It seems only one person has actually done what the topic starter actually asked for: book sources on capitalist restoration in China.

I think that all of the following are fine scholarship on the matter without being too liberal:

-Mao's China and After: A History of the People's Republic, by Maurice Meisner
-Mao Zedong and China in the Twentieth-Century World, by Rebecca E. Karl (focuses more on the Mao era than the post-Mao era, but still has a good section on it)
-The Great Reversal: The Privatization of China, 1979-1989, by William Hinton
-Red Cat, White Cat: China and the Contradictions of "Market Socialism", by Robert Weil

There are others of course, but those authors at least claim to be "socialist" if not Marxist per say.

[Art Vandelay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucratic_collectivism#Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy

I was wanting to hear your opinion.

[LiveOnYourFeet]

In my opinion China is a classic case of a communist revolution that got stuck in the "dictatorship of the proletariat" phase, and inevitably reverted back to capitalism, but this time under the state. China was capitalist for a long while. Yes there are elements of socialism in the mix, but they're being ousted by the state's use of capitalism and instead of caring about the people they are now caring about their wallets.

[Raúl Duke]

Most of the academic sources Ive come across take this as a final blow to Marxism, or a great global trend that will eventually end the 'tyranny' in china.:lol:

I've heard a bit of that, but I assume those sources were written in the 90s or early millennium; where the elites were smugly celebrating themselves as the Soviet Union collapsed.

I've now read articles from liberals to social progressives arguing that capitalism will not "end tyranny" in China but instead make it even more oppressive: i.e. Despite the "tyranny" (an arguable subject in revleft but lets assume for now) in the past USSR and say (to a lesser extent now) Cuba at least people had housing, health-care, work, food, access to education, etc. Now that Russia/Soviet Bloc is avowedly capitalist there's none of that stuff, things gotten worse, and all people got was maybe the bourgeois sham liberal "democracy."

One can arguably say that PRC was "capitalist" all along in one way or another but despite the failings (and what I consider wrong ideas) of Mao at least one could sense he was somewhat of an actual socialist (I also think similarly, more so actually, of Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky, etc; despite that I disagree completely with their ideology you could kinda see in their writings a concern for the "communist project" and a sense that they thought what they were doing would lead to it, although in the end, I say, they were wrong).

Once Deng took over, you could say China has been firmly heading towards capitalism with little chance (outside of a revolution or some strange inner CPC coup by hard-line Maoists or some Leninist faction) of any change in that direction and only lip-service (if any) concerns about the socialist or communist project.

[Bostana]

Buddy, China is already there

[Yuppie Grinder]

How exactly does bureaucratic collectivism differ from state capitalism?

It differs in that it's a meaningless buzzword used to mask apologism for Stalinism and isn't an actual thing.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

No, I was referring to China's move following the sino/soviet split to ironically open up to the west and in particular the US.

Im not claiming the current government is marxist/communist/socialist of any sorts. I just need good book sources with a socialist historian of what has happened in china since the cultural revolution onward.

You'll get alot of Anti-Maoists answers here, which is fine in of it's self, after all, let a thousand flowers bloom and let a hundred schools of thought contend. But I imagine none of this answers your questions. So I'll post you some links and if you message me I can give you alot more information


The Battle for China's Past (comes in paper back if you want it)
http://www.strongwindpress.com/pdfs/EBook/The_Battle_for_Chinas_Past.pdf

I reccomend you look at what the China Study Group puts out, they have some good stuff. Here is a link to my favorite article on the cultural revolution

http://chinastudygroup.net/category/chinese-revolution/cultural-revolution-category/

Here's another article contrasting capitalist India with Communist China (socialist/DotP whatever term, you like)

http://chinastudygroup.net/2010/07/what-difference-does-a-revolution-make-a-contrast-of-india-and-china/


Browse that website for alot of good information.

If you want more just give me a private message/

[Goblin]

They have been capitalist since Deng.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

They have been capitalist since Deng.

And it's important to note that capitalism was being restored after the failure of the great leap forward, only to be temporarily reversed by the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, which unfortunately ended. *sigh*, but what a great proletarian revolution it was.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Sry i thought this thread was from the 80s

[AnarchistRevolutionary]

Check out their latest national two minute bathroom break on the job policy and you will have your answer.

[commieathighnoon]

It differs in that it's a meaningless buzzword used to mask apologism for Stalinism and isn't an actual thing.

I doubt that. Most "bureaucratic collectivists" have tended to see the USSR as the worse of two evils and side with Western capitalism as the more 'progressive' tendency.

[Ostrinski]

Yeah, Schacthtman and co. viewed Stalinism as qualitatively worse than market capitalism as did most other theorists that viewed Stalinism as a new mode of production. Schacthman even ended up supporting the United States in its intervention in Vietnam. I'm not sure what examples GourmetPez has in mind.

[Karl Renegade]

China has what the chinese call "socialism with chinese characteristics" which I never really understood. All I know about China is it will become the largest economy in the world within this century, socialist or not.

[Red Jace]

China became a capitalist country around 1980. After Chairman Mao died (1976), a "capitalist roader" (as revisionists were called during the cultural revolution) named Deng Xiaoping basically took over and restored capitalism. Communes and collectivization became a thing of the past, and the cultural revolution was demonized by the government.

A political clique called the "Gang of four" (Zhang Chunqiao, Yao Wenyuan, Wang Hongwen, and Mao's wife Jiang Qing) actually tried to keep China revolutionary but they were arrested after Mao's death.

In addition, never believe the stupidity of the claim that the Tiananmen Square Protests were anti-communist. In 1989 a protest against the CCP is a protest against capitalists, and there is footage of the protestors singing The Internationale, if that lends any credibility. [ Just a little additional fact. Please don't penalize me for unrelated content :grin: ]