Art Vandelay
14th January 2013, 03:14
Going off of PC LOAD LETTER’s suggestion, I’ve decided to start a new thread for this recent conversation which we had in the ‘post here when you’re drunk thread.’ It would be interesting to get others opinions on this subject.
PC LOAD LETTER: You'd fit right in down here in the south.
9mm: Haha maybe with my drinking habits, but I'm a bit too outspoken politically to live down there I would assume.
PC LOAD LETTER: Eh you just have to understand the people down here. It's hard to explain unless you've spent a lot of time here, but don't think of it as people may disagree with your political views. Think of it like this, you need to walk the walk, and talk the talk, in a way that doesn't make people feel like you're an outsider, in a way that doesn't make people feel condescended towards and in a way that doesn't make people feel like you want to radically change their way of life (in a negative way).
I think that's a big reason why the people down here are more drawn to the 'good ole republican boys' like Bush, because they can walk the walk and talk the talk and make the people of the south feel like they're supporting their buddy Jim from down the street. What they don't want is a yuppie from Chicago or Philadelphia or New York patronizing them and saying the PC equivalent of "you're an idiot, I know how to run your life" (at least that's the way it's perceived due to cultural differences).
What it's going to really take to turn the south around and start a worker's movement here is people who are familiar with the culture of the south, can communicate in a way that appeals to people of the south, and in all likelihood, are actually from the south. It's gonna take us southern people to break the ice when it comes to building a worker's movement in the south, I think. Otherwise, it's a bit like a white dude from Mississippi trying to build a worker's movement in Guatemala. Not saying the white dude couldn't help, but ... most people would probably look at him like he's a crazy gringo who doesn't get it, even if he's saying the same thing as a Guatemalan communist the next town over who people are actually listening to because he's from there and knows how to talk to the locals. Ya dig?
Disclaimer: I'm totally not trying to sound like an asshole at all and I'm DEFINITELY not trying to say you're condescending/patronizing/a yuppie/etc. Your post just brought up a good point. I just think a lot of people underestimate the south. There's a big history of unionism here, even today especially in the oil and natural gas industries, as a testament to the potential appeal of a worker's movement here, and in general the south is a massive, untapped resource of potentially sympathetic people for an international worker's movement.
9mm: I can relate to this to an extent. To a certain point I feel this is the battle that all revolutionary leftists have in their backyards, but at the same time I feel that it could perhaps be a bit more challenging down in the southern us then it is for me up here in more liberal democratic Canada.
In all honesty, I feel like you're really touching on something that is important to address. While I don't posit to understand the situation down there (I say this cause I'm from up north) I do feel like that many people are largely apathetic to politics (not just there, but people in general) and that many don't properly intellectually engage with the people and the platforms they represent, that they vote for. While it seems to an outsider that people in the southern us perhaps gravitate towards that strongman aesthetic, I feel that socialists could better pull off that aesthetic when talking about militantly ending your bosses ability to exploit the individual proletariat's surplus value (obviously it needs to be put in more accessible terms than that).
This is ultimately why I believe that the job of any communist is on his home terf, since as internationalists we realize that we each have a role to play everywhere and that people will most likely relate to those not only from their areas but also who understand the cultural values of the area (not to say that in the long run we don't want these petty differences to break down).
In all honesty if I was down in the south I probably would come across as a a condescending yuppie; mainly because I'm more of the sensitive university grad type. However I feel this raises a good point as well. It is ultimately a by product of the proletarian conditions, for the majority of the class to gravitate towards the politics that will result in their emancipation; this process needs to be sped up as fast as possible by those who have already achieved class consciousness. Thus we all are most valuable in the areas and cultures we understand; thus giving us the greatest ability to communicate to those in said areas.
PC LOAD LETTER: Oh, definitely, it's applicable to virtually every locale in varying degrees. If I went to New York tomorrow I'd be looked at as a southern ... yokel, I suppose, and not taken seriously in an inverse interpretation of what I mentioned before. Likewise to my southern example, I'm sure there's equally difficult hurdles to overcome when addressing those from a liberal/social-democrat background.
It's definitely true that there's apathy everywhere. I hope this situation changes soon, and I think it will as the economy continues to remain stagnant and folks become disillusioned across the spectrum and at least become inquisitive (because I don't expect mass class consciousness to bloom in my lifetime ).
!thriller!: The Mid-West: People have the idea that it is reactionary. And yes, it is. Meaning the laws are reactionary compared to the West Coast or New York or Hawaii. But if you go to a bar anywhere in Wisconsin or Minnesota, you will not get fucked with, picked on, intimidated as long as one: 1) is nice & 2) gives people a chance to speak their mind, no matter how absurd it is. This one thing i love about the place I live: people are nice. Doors are unlocked throughout the entire region. People trust each other. Now I am not saying that this is the only place this happens or is better than another place. I am just saying from my anecdotal experience: people in the Mid-West are nice and respectful (prolly cuz they are all drunk and don't know what the hell is going on). That is my dumb drunk rant. Night
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel like this conversation has touched upon some interesting points and it would perhaps be beneficial for us to begin discussing some more regional organizational strategies, as opposed to having this ready made blue print that we attempt to transplant into any situation.
PC LOAD LETTER: You'd fit right in down here in the south.
9mm: Haha maybe with my drinking habits, but I'm a bit too outspoken politically to live down there I would assume.
PC LOAD LETTER: Eh you just have to understand the people down here. It's hard to explain unless you've spent a lot of time here, but don't think of it as people may disagree with your political views. Think of it like this, you need to walk the walk, and talk the talk, in a way that doesn't make people feel like you're an outsider, in a way that doesn't make people feel condescended towards and in a way that doesn't make people feel like you want to radically change their way of life (in a negative way).
I think that's a big reason why the people down here are more drawn to the 'good ole republican boys' like Bush, because they can walk the walk and talk the talk and make the people of the south feel like they're supporting their buddy Jim from down the street. What they don't want is a yuppie from Chicago or Philadelphia or New York patronizing them and saying the PC equivalent of "you're an idiot, I know how to run your life" (at least that's the way it's perceived due to cultural differences).
What it's going to really take to turn the south around and start a worker's movement here is people who are familiar with the culture of the south, can communicate in a way that appeals to people of the south, and in all likelihood, are actually from the south. It's gonna take us southern people to break the ice when it comes to building a worker's movement in the south, I think. Otherwise, it's a bit like a white dude from Mississippi trying to build a worker's movement in Guatemala. Not saying the white dude couldn't help, but ... most people would probably look at him like he's a crazy gringo who doesn't get it, even if he's saying the same thing as a Guatemalan communist the next town over who people are actually listening to because he's from there and knows how to talk to the locals. Ya dig?
Disclaimer: I'm totally not trying to sound like an asshole at all and I'm DEFINITELY not trying to say you're condescending/patronizing/a yuppie/etc. Your post just brought up a good point. I just think a lot of people underestimate the south. There's a big history of unionism here, even today especially in the oil and natural gas industries, as a testament to the potential appeal of a worker's movement here, and in general the south is a massive, untapped resource of potentially sympathetic people for an international worker's movement.
9mm: I can relate to this to an extent. To a certain point I feel this is the battle that all revolutionary leftists have in their backyards, but at the same time I feel that it could perhaps be a bit more challenging down in the southern us then it is for me up here in more liberal democratic Canada.
In all honesty, I feel like you're really touching on something that is important to address. While I don't posit to understand the situation down there (I say this cause I'm from up north) I do feel like that many people are largely apathetic to politics (not just there, but people in general) and that many don't properly intellectually engage with the people and the platforms they represent, that they vote for. While it seems to an outsider that people in the southern us perhaps gravitate towards that strongman aesthetic, I feel that socialists could better pull off that aesthetic when talking about militantly ending your bosses ability to exploit the individual proletariat's surplus value (obviously it needs to be put in more accessible terms than that).
This is ultimately why I believe that the job of any communist is on his home terf, since as internationalists we realize that we each have a role to play everywhere and that people will most likely relate to those not only from their areas but also who understand the cultural values of the area (not to say that in the long run we don't want these petty differences to break down).
In all honesty if I was down in the south I probably would come across as a a condescending yuppie; mainly because I'm more of the sensitive university grad type. However I feel this raises a good point as well. It is ultimately a by product of the proletarian conditions, for the majority of the class to gravitate towards the politics that will result in their emancipation; this process needs to be sped up as fast as possible by those who have already achieved class consciousness. Thus we all are most valuable in the areas and cultures we understand; thus giving us the greatest ability to communicate to those in said areas.
PC LOAD LETTER: Oh, definitely, it's applicable to virtually every locale in varying degrees. If I went to New York tomorrow I'd be looked at as a southern ... yokel, I suppose, and not taken seriously in an inverse interpretation of what I mentioned before. Likewise to my southern example, I'm sure there's equally difficult hurdles to overcome when addressing those from a liberal/social-democrat background.
It's definitely true that there's apathy everywhere. I hope this situation changes soon, and I think it will as the economy continues to remain stagnant and folks become disillusioned across the spectrum and at least become inquisitive (because I don't expect mass class consciousness to bloom in my lifetime ).
!thriller!: The Mid-West: People have the idea that it is reactionary. And yes, it is. Meaning the laws are reactionary compared to the West Coast or New York or Hawaii. But if you go to a bar anywhere in Wisconsin or Minnesota, you will not get fucked with, picked on, intimidated as long as one: 1) is nice & 2) gives people a chance to speak their mind, no matter how absurd it is. This one thing i love about the place I live: people are nice. Doors are unlocked throughout the entire region. People trust each other. Now I am not saying that this is the only place this happens or is better than another place. I am just saying from my anecdotal experience: people in the Mid-West are nice and respectful (prolly cuz they are all drunk and don't know what the hell is going on). That is my dumb drunk rant. Night
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel like this conversation has touched upon some interesting points and it would perhaps be beneficial for us to begin discussing some more regional organizational strategies, as opposed to having this ready made blue print that we attempt to transplant into any situation.