Fuck The Troops

[RisingSun]

Being against the war but supporting the troops is an illogical position:


Some who oppose the war try to deal with the contradiction involved here by saying, "I support the warrior, not the war." But how can you separate the troops from what they are doing? Bob Avakian has raised the point that if you came upon a woman who was being attacked and raped by a gang of men, would you say, 'I support the rapists, not the rape?' Or if you encountered a mob of racists lynching a Black person, would you say, 'I support the lynchers, not the lynching?' Of course not. You'd say these people are doing something heinous, and I can't support them. Well the war that U.S. troops are waging in Iraq is also heinous, and it, and the troops who are carrying it out don't deserve the support of anybody who cares about justice!revcom.us/a/082/troops-en.html

I agree.

And I'd go further than that - I'm happy when I hear about soldiers getting killed. That's one less sociopath coming home to beat their wife and fill up our prisons. They're the scum of society and they're better off dead.

[Rusty Shackleford]

How about "Organize the troops" ?

[Questionable]

And I'd go further than that - I'm happy when I hear about soldiers getting killed. That's one less sociopath coming home to beat their wife and fill up our prisons. They're the scum of society and they're better off dead.

Badass.

But in all honesty, the armed forces is not a homogeneous group at all. It's foolish to say that every single one is coming home to "beat their wife and fill up our prison," even the female and homosexual ones too?

Plus in most revolutionary situations a section of the military broke off and supported the revolution, especially in Russia. They can be helpful.

[Ostrinski]

This comes off as posturing.

[Geiseric]

I like how he slipped in chairman bob. I used to think like this but it's usually working class people who don't think they have a future who join the military. That's how I always saw it, my family has a lot of military people.

[Red Banana]

While I agree with the sentiment of the quote, you took it to an unreasonable extreme RisingSun. I guess you think people like The Douche would be better off dead?

Some soldiers go into it genuinely thinking they're doing the right thing, and you can't blame them, society indoctrinates them from a very early age to believe the US military are "the good guys" no matter what. It's not like we have movies that glamorize rape and give badges to and hold ceremonies in honor of rapists.

[Ocean Seal]

And I'd go further than that - I'm happy when I hear about soldiers getting killed. That's one less sociopath coming home to beat their wife and fill up our prisons. They're the scum of society and they're better off dead.
Listen bro, calm down. Deep breath in, deep breath out. I'm happy to see the military fail in their mission, but I'd say I'm not too happy when these youths take their lives or get killed.


That's one less sociopath coming home to beat their wife and fill up our prisons. They're the scum of society and they're better off dead.
Now for the second and more important part. That's fucked up. You're using reactionary rhetoric here against those with mental illness. Sociopaths are really just a lazy creation of sociologists and outdated psychologists without any validity. This isn't against soldiers this is against "the scum of society" ie: to you the people who fill our prisons and have mental illnesses. Don't think that I didn't see through your bullshit.

As Ostrinski said here comes the revolutionary posturing, but ironically I now question whatever revolutionary credentials you had more than ever.

[Fruit of Ulysses]

i completely understand that its mislead working class folks (usually) who join the military, and it is true that they can and should be organized, but every once and awhile.....you need to just let loose a good ole "Fuck the Troops". i once met a vet down and out on his luck and i felt bad for him at first but he told me this story about how he set fire to a farmers fields and killed his camels and let loose a buncha racist comments.....

[Prometeo liberado]

How does the "New Synthesis" apply to this troop conundrum?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I have a suggestion that might appeal to both militaristic machismo as well as radical left politics. How about "Organise and frag your officers!"?

The success of it would depend on the state of class politics within the armed force in question. If there are significant gaps in pay and privilege between officers and the rank-and-file, then dependent on other necessary conditions (intra-military tension? wider social unrest?) there could be fertile grounds for mutiny.

I remember reading of US Army officer fraggings during the Vietnam War, but I don't think it was organised mutinous behaviour. Could such situations be channelled in a political direction?

[Fourth Internationalist]

If revolution comes and we want to win, having the military on our side might be helpful. Critisize wisely.

[Yugo45]

It was always the working class folk who (voluntarily or not) were drafted in to armies through history as cannon fodder. But nowadays, not so much. Many people are joining the military because of their nationalist reactionary views. They want to "support their country" and other crap.

Still, there is a certain number of working class people who are joining the army today because they can't really get a job.

But, I don' think it's a good strategy for a revolution to fuck with the army. No, really. If anything, we want them on our side, no?

Anyway..
xa566QvOpWE

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

A lot of people who join the military today do so because it is one of the educational benefits it provides are the only way they can afford to attend college.

[Fruit of Ulysses]

while Bob Avakian is a delusional idiot, the Glenn Beck of communism, i think that may have been the only quite by him that ever made sense. ima use that line sumtime, cuz in all honesty material conditions aside, they did CHOOSE to join the death machine of the biggest imperialist force on the planet

[Comrade Samuel]

If you want to generalize all troops as sociopathic wife beaters then you shouldent be surprised when they generalize us a poor, uneducated leaches.

You, my friend are the problem with our movement.

[thriller]

Nahh, The Douche is very cool and helpful, and I think he was in the Army.
I don't say "Support the Troops" and I don't respect them for what they do. And the "Fuck the Troops" tagline can feel a little badass to use, but that is about it. Older people in the USA (mainly men) helped to fight against the Nazi's in WWII and that is something I am not going to say was worse or even equal to the Occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. It depends on the attitude of the military personnel. Fuck the troops who think it was "cool" to go to war and "get some". Support those who feel awful for what they've done and were too naive to know what was going on or had no other way of getting money to go to school in order to escape the farm/the ghetto.

[sixdollarchampagne]

I think it was during one of the wars in the Persian Gulf that the antiwar movement used the slogan, "Support the troops – Bring them home now." I always thought that saying "Support the troops" was a big mistake. It's surely a social-patriotic slogan, and "supporting" the troops in a war zone could only mean, I think, giving them greater, deadlier fire power, so if I were in a coalition, I would vote against both slogans, "Support the troops" and "F*** the troops," as counterproductive.

One positive, productive thing the antiwar movement did during the Vietnam war was to try to defend the First Amendment rights of soldiers, to discuss the war, to participate in the antiwar movement, and, especially, to publish their own newspapers on their bases, while the war was going on, and there was a period when GI-pubished anti-war newspapers appeared in a number of different places.

Now that was when there was conscription. It may well be that, in the absence of the draft, with a volunteer army, the troops are less approachable. The draft made a big difference: I think it helped to build the antiwar movement a lot.

One other thing I remember: When I was an undergraduate (late 1960's), I would wear an antiwar button to classes every day. Once, another student gave me a hard time about my antiwar button, but then a ROTC guy told him to lay off, because the ROTC guy himself was definitely not enthusiastic about being sent to Viet Nam. That was kind of neat.

I have to acknowledge that a few years back, I bought a button that says, "Support our troops – We'll need them to overthrow our government." I think I wore it a couple of times.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Listen bro, calm down. Deep breath in, deep breath out. I'm happy to see the military fail in their mission, but I'd say I'm not too happy when these youths take their lives or get killed.


Now for the second and more important part. That's fucked up. You're using reactionary rhetoric here against those with mental illness. Sociopaths are really just a lazy creation of sociologists and outdated psychologists without any validity. This isn't against soldiers this is against "the scum of society" ie: to you the people who fill our prisons and have mental illnesses. Don't think that I didn't see through your bullshit.

As Ostrinski said here comes the revolutionary posturing, but ironically I now question whatever revolutionary credentials you had more than ever.
Agree with most of this -- it is rrrrrrrevolutionary posturing to simply wish for dead US soldiers. Most are from working class backgrounds and don't have options. That being said -- I root for the victory of the other side because a defeat for the US military is usually a win for almost everyone.
The "bring our boys home" shit makes me ill -- when they are fighting for US imperialism, they are not "my boys" that is for sure. Of course, a volunteer army will tend to be far more reactionary and less prone to "split" than a conscription army. But revolutionaries should not treat the people in the armed forces as hopeless reactionaries, worthy of death. Police are another issue entirely. The are simply the armed fist of the state -- corrupt as hell and profoundly reactionary. Not at all part of the working class.

As for sociopaths, they do exist. There is some good research on this. I have experienced it some in my life and certainly in the lives of my patients. These are people who are missing the "empathy" software. The literally do not give a shit about what happens to anyone around them as long as their needs are fulfilled. They are so different from most humans that most people have a hard time taking in the indifferent cruelty of which these folks are capable. Even the vast majority of police are not sociopaths. However, it can make a nice career for them.
However

[Rafiq]

cuz in all honesty material conditions aside,

Here we are, you lose credibility after this

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Damn it some one already posted "Fuck the British Army" Well atleast I know of a semi-folk punk version that's pretty good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2pT6EIdOWI

Anyway, I vote Lenin. Revolutionary defeatism is always the best of action. This doesn't mean that we want our "enemies" in an inter imperialist conflict to win but that we want to defeat the army ourselves. So while I don't agree with alot of the bottom part of your paragraph I see your "fuck the troops" and raise you one "support the troops"

http://csrinde.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/t-shirt_inde_f.jpg


And also, in the modern era economic conscription only accounts for 25% of the military, so that argument doesn't really hold. And yes some of the Russian army joined the revolution, but how much more of the army joined the reaction?

[Fruit of Ulysses]

damn it Rafiq! what i meant is that regardless of what the circumstances were that would lead them to thinking that the army is okay they still chose to join it. there are some people who were raised in super reactionary conditions and they learnt better and refused, get what i saying?

[RedSonRising]

damn it Rafiq! what i meant is that regardless of what the circumstances were that would lead them to thinking that the army is okay they still chose to join it. there are some people who were raised in super reactionary conditions and they learnt better and refused, get what i saying?

There were people who grew up poor and didn't turn into criminals. Doesn't mean we should abandon the deviant working class.

The vast majority of people support capitalism in one way or another, consciously or unconsciously. The point is to educate and convert them, not spite and alienate them.

[Decolonize The Left]

damn it Rafiq! what i meant is that regardless of what the circumstances were that would lead them to thinking that the army is okay they still chose to join it. there are some people who were raised in super reactionary conditions and they learnt better and refused, get what i saying?

Yeah we do. But that outlook is totally anti-materialist and betrays absolutely no understanding of the fact that people are shaped by their circumstance - by their history - by their experiences.

People do not live in a vacuum where mysteriously they are able to make "free choices" about whatever they want. People are animals with big brains and they act the same way animals do: fight or flight, conditioned behavior, etc...

Most soldiers are working-class people just like ourselves, only for one reason or another they have ended up fighting for the capitalist class. Most will not realize this but will suffer the trauma of war none-the-less. This is the problem; the problem is not the soldiers - the problem is the reasons why we go to war. And the answer to that is capitalism.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Damn it some one already posted "Fuck the British Army" Well atleast I know of a semi-folk punk version that's pretty good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2pT6EIdOWI

Anyway, I vote Lenin. Revolutionary defeatism is always the best of action. This doesn't mean that we want our "enemies" in an inter imperialist conflict to win but that we want to defeat the army ourselves. So while I don't agree with alot of the bottom part of your paragraph I see your "fuck the troops" and raise you one "support the troops"


And also, in the modern era economic conscription only accounts for 25% of the military, so that argument doesn't really hold. And yes some of the Russian army joined the revolution, but how much more of the army joined the reaction?
What country's military and do you have a source? I know it's anecdotal, but almost everyone I know who joined the military did so out of desperation; because they had virtually no other options aside from career criminality. So my reply to the thread starter and that shit head Bob Avakian is as follows: lol yeah let's turn our backs on a bunch of poor working-class folks who are victims of circumstance

[Red Banana]

So my reply to the thread starter and that shit head Bob Avakian is as follows: lol yeah let's turn our backs on a bunch of poor working-class folks who are victims of circumstance

True, many members of the military are victims of circumstance. So are many robbers/muggers and murderers, but that doesn't justify their actions.

We shouldn't turn our backs to these people, of course, we should be doing everything we can to raise their class consciousness. But the criticism still stands; just because you're pushed between a rock and a hard place doesn't mean it's suddenly ok to murder people.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

http://csrinde.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/t-shirt_inde_f.jpg



Imagine the rage that shirt could evoke. :laugh:

[B5C]

There are few types of soldiers:
1. Career Soldiers who dream to be the next Powell, Ike, or Patton.
2. The soldier who joined because he has an family to support and no where to go.
3. The soldier who just joined because he wants to kill many people.

Where do most soldiers apply to my list? It is number two. Most military people I know fall in the "support an family" category. They joined because they saw no benefit to support a family in civilian life due to lack of money and social class. My father is one who joined to survive. He spent years in college working on art degree. Why? He wanted to work in marketing. Yet it was during the recession during the early 80s and jobs were hard to find and school bills was rising. So in 1982, he joined the Army. The military was just converting from a draft military to a volunteer military. He saw this ads stating that they will pay for college and other perks, so he joined. My married my other in December of '82 and three days after the wedding he went to basic training. He just signed for the four year contract. Then he had me in '84 and my sister in '85. I was a health basket case. My parents knew that going back to civilian life will hurt them financially due to my healthcare costs, so he signed up for more years. Military health benefits for my family was the best than civilians can get. Also Army brought fear of almost losing my father. My father was almost attack in Izmir, Turkey. He was sent into Kosovo (Under UN Mandate KFOR) to prevent genocide of the Albanians. (I don't know fully how revleft views the NATO conflict in Kosovo, but my father was in the front lines and saw the deaths of many civilians and many in mass graves. It still does give him nightmares.) Also he was forced to go to many of Reagan's imperialists wars. A bit of a good outcome for me is that I get to do what many Americans didn't get to do. I got to experience the planet and meet new people & cultures. Also make friends who didn't speak very good English or me who speak little Turkish or German. (According to my mother I was fluent in Dutch when I was 2-3 years old.) After signing up again in 1986 my father stayed on till 2002. He stayed a few twenty years due to family. He gave up a life in marketing and art so he can provide for his family because he had no other options twenty years earlier.

Is my father the type of man we want to say "Fuck the Troops" at? My father is the type of man that we should TARGET for help in revolution. He sacrificed himself just to support his family. He found out the recruiter lied to him about his "PAID" education. He gets a pension from the the Army, but is losing it slowly because the government doesn't want to pay. He knows the government and military are not to be trusted, but he loves his nations. We just have to show another option for my father and others.


The only type of troops we should be saying "Fuck the Troops" are those who believe that war provides a good job security and believe in America imperialist ideals.

[Narcissus]

My brother is going to join the Royal Marines, and it's f-cking killing me. He sees the way the world is, and doesn't want to be a wage slave in an office. He has always been fascinated by WWII, and I think subconsciously he thinks he's gonna be one of the good guys fighting fascists. He is so misguided, but he refuses to contemplate it because he is scared of having no future (he saw me get an inch from suicide on account of existential depression). He knows capitalism is wrong, and spewed some crap about freedom (which couldn't have been any more ironic). It's like he's in denial or in some kind of fugue state from his conscience. He won't listen to me or his morals. I'm 100% sure that he knows how disgusting imperialism is and why Britain are in the wars they are in, but it's like he just looks the other way.

He's a smart 16 year old, who's seen me get bullied my whole life and been vehemently against these sort of injustices amongst his peers and in the world as a whole. He's just so desperate to be part of something and have a purpose because he is fully aware of how bleak the world is otherwise (even though he will get good grades and have good job opportunities) - its like he thinks he won't be a wage slave if he's in the military.

Lack of hope and feeling of powerlessness as a result of (what he sees as) inevitable, unchangeable capitalism, and systematic injustice and despair, along with being conditioned by that very same society has lead him to where he is.

Hopefully he has the courage to admit that trying to be some kind of good guy that fights for what is right is not possible in the British (or any western nation's) military, and that they are in fact (as someone said earlier) the enforcers of American imperialism, kleptocracy, oligarchy, and capitalism. If he admits this he will be lost for a long time, but we need to give youths like my brother hope that there IS an alternative. He's not even close to being the worst off as well. It all makes me so sad. If only everyone could simultaneously search their hearts, and break the shackles society has placed over their minds, we would have our revolution instantly.

His Grandfather was in the Marines too. He killed himself when my dad was 20. I really hope he works it all out before the same thing happens.

[Ostrinski]

And also, in the modern era economic conscription only accounts for 25% of the military, so that argument doesn't really hold. And yes some of the Russian army joined the revolution, but how much more of the army joined the reaction?If the October insurrection is what you are referring to, the only reason it succeeded relatively bloodlessly is because over half of the armed forces were in the Bolshevik party ranks at the time, and virtually all of the armed forces stationed in Petrograd throughout 1917 were organized into either anarchist or Bolshevik ranks.

The upper echelons of the military, officers and such, ended up being counter-revolutionaries of course. But the Military Organziation wing of the Bolshevik party had the numbers to enforce a (relatively) peaceful transition.

They called the insurrection in response to Kerensky's decision to transfer suspected Bolshevik party militants within the armed forces to the front, after all.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

True, many members of the military are victims of circumstance. So are many robbers/muggers and murderers, but that doesn't justify their actions.

We shouldn't turn our backs to these people, of course, we should be doing everything we can to raise their class consciousness. But the criticism still stands; just because you're pushed between a rock and a hard place doesn't mean it's suddenly ok to murder people.
You realize that the vast majority of US military careers are in non-combat roles, right? You're deluded if you think anywhere near the 1.3 million people (http://siadapp.dmdc.osd.mil/personnel/MILITARY/miltop.htm) currently in the military have killed someone, much less shot at them. In the US, the military functions as the last vestige of the welfare state ... vacuuming up those without a future to help administer the US's global hegemony.
Feeding your family =/= killing people you sensationalist hack

[X5N]

I definitely wouldn't go as far as that. In the United States, a lot of poor young people join the military because they have no other way to go. According to Savage Inequalities by Jonathan Kozol (if I remember correctly), some communities are very depleted of men because of the shitty economic circumstances, and the presence of the army as the only supposed way to get out. And, many of them are victims of American patriotism and propaganda.

A lot of people who go into the army come out very opposed to the government. A lot of people are lied to by recruiters.

[Red Banana]

You realize that the vast majority of US military careers are in non-combat roles, right? You're deluded if you think anywhere near the 1.3 million people (http://siadapp.dmdc.osd.mil/personnel/MILITARY/miltop.htm) currently in the military have killed someone, much less shot at them. In the US, the military functions as the last vestige of the welfare state ... vacuuming up those without a future to help administer the US's global hegemony.
Feeding your family =/= killing people you sensationalist hack

Ok, I should have specified my criticism to those only working in combat or combat enabling (things like intelligence, or generals who don't see war but certainly make it) positions. Of course a doctor who works for the military isn't murdering anyone. But those who work in combat or combat enabling positions are murdering people and shouldn't be shielded from criticism just because they have to perform the same tasks as everyone else in society i.e. feeding their families.

P.S. Calling people names doesn't really help your point.

[Let's Get Free]

a lot of young guys I think get excited about joining the army because they think it’s going to be fun and thrillingly dangerous, and then it turns out to be intensely uncomfortable and boring, punctuated by horrific pointless killing and maiming, and they return cynical and traumatized for life. and then 20 years later, young guys are again excited about going off to war. What’s going on here?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

It is interesting to read the views of those who think that moralizing about people's participation in international imperialism without considering the material conditions which led them to make those choices is coherent with leftwing politics. Should we also disregard teachers for participating in the indoctrination of future workers or wage laborers for using their work to enhance the profits of massive enterprises? Perhaps we should throw out the writings of Engels too, since he was a member of the bourgeois. After all, they seem to be making a voluntary choice to help an imperialist institution once we ignore the fact that their choices were structurally conditioned.

The Russian empire was one of the biggest and most brutal empires in history, yet its WWI vets were critical in establishing the USSR. To dismiss the warrior class for moralistic reasons is not just unfair to the soldiers but could potentially unintentionally sabotage a real revolution.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Ok, I should have specified my criticism to those only working in combat or combat enabling (things like intelligence, or generals who don't see war but certainly make it) positions. Of course a doctor who works for the military isn't murdering anyone. But those who work in combat or combat enabling positions are murdering people and shouldn't be shielded from criticism just because they have to perform the same tasks as everyone else in society i.e. feeding their families.

P.S. Calling people names doesn't really help your point.
Again, the vast majority of enlistees don't really have much of a choice what they're going to do when they get in. They're given a narrow set of options based on their ASVAB score and physical fitness level. Do you know who goes to the front lines to be shot at? Poor enlistees with low education levels who had little other choice in life but to join the army or become a janitor. The ones with an ASVAB score too low for the military to justify them being anything but cannon fodder. Your petty (-bourgeois) moralism is completely lacking an understanding of the economic coercion that led to their enlistment.


P.S.





Adjective

sensationalist (comparative more sensationalist, superlative most sensationalist)

Sensationalistic; tending to sensationalize; characterized by sensationalism (the use of exaggerated or lurid material in order to gain public attention).
Noun

hack (plural hacks)

1. (pejorative) An untalented writer.

2. (politics) A political agitator. (slightly derogatory)

[blake 3:17]

I remember reading of US Army officer fraggings during the Vietnam War, but I don't think it was organised mutinous behaviour. Could such situations be channelled in a political direction?

Most fraggings would occur when soldiers were totally fed up with a particular commander who was being particularly reckless with their lives. I wouldn't worry that it wasn't organized -- it shows basic sanity.

I don't like the title of this thread, don't have much time for Avakian, and agree with many posters above about the back door economic draft/conscription and not wanting working class people injured or killed.

At the same time, if we're calling for any military victory or military defeat, that is going to involve the deaths of soldiers. Let's not be dishonest about this.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

OP you're a nasty piece of shit. Soldiers - infantry privates - are proletarians just like the rest of us.

Presumably we're all better off dead as we're fighting the war of the bourgeoisie merely by producing goods for them, as we're producing their profits.

Have fun in OI, chump.

[Red Banana]

Again, the vast majority of enlistees don't really have much of a choice what they're going to do when they get in. They're given a narrow set of options based on their ASVAB score and physical fitness level. Do you know who goes to the front lines to be shot at? Poor enlistees with low education levels who had little other choice in life but to join the army or become a janitor. The ones with an ASVAB score too low for the military to justify them being anything but cannon fodder. Your petty (-bourgeois) moralism is completely lacking an understanding of the economic coercion that led to their enlistment.

Yes, everyone already knows that many people enlist because they're strapped for cash, no one is contesting that. And by the way I'm not really concerned with being too Marxist to realize that morals, while conditional, do exist. If I saw a child being murdered before me I wouldn't sit back and do nothing because there were material conditions that lead the murderer to do that.

Anyway, soldiers. I feel bad for the ones who are economically coerced into enlisting, but I refuse to turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed as a direct result of their actions.

[Luís Henrique]

Bob Avakian has raised the point that if you came upon a woman who was being attacked and raped by a gang of men, would you say, 'I support the rapists, not the rape?' Or if you encountered a mob of racists lynching a Black person, would you say, 'I support the lynchers, not the lynching?' Of course not. You'd say these people are doing something heinous, and I can't support them. Well the war that U.S. troops are waging in Iraq is also heinous, and it, and the troops who are carrying it out don't deserve the support of anybody who cares about justice!Bob Avakian, the pure genius.

What defines a rapist is the fact that he rapes, or is raping, or has raped. What defines a lyncher is the fact that he or she lynches, is lynching, or has lynched. What defines "the troops" is not the fact that they have invaded this or that country. Evidently, it would be completely nonsence to say "I support the invaders of Iraq, not the invasion of Iraq". But when one says "I support the troops, not the war", what is meant, of course, is that one supports the individuals who are trapped into such an unwinable war - to the point that one supports bringing them back.


And I'd go further than that - I'm happy when I hear about soldiers getting killed. That's one less sociopath coming home to beat their wife and fill up our prisons. They're the scum of society and they're better off dead.Now that's simply insane. :rolleyes:

Luís Henrique

[Zealot]

It's okay to say fuck the police but not fuck the troops? Sure, they're proletarians and predominantly lower-class but when this was said about the police in another thread everyone spammed ACAB to show how much of a badass mofo they were and to promote their individualist-subculturalist politics. So I'm going to just say it: Fuck The Troops. Particularly the ones who are so reactionary that they actually want to be there to serve their country like a good and obedient patriotic dog. I bet most of you are Americans and possibly closet-nationalists. Good day.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

http://elwoodin.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/leftsupportsmurder.jpg

[PC LOAD LETTER]

It's okay to say fuck the police but not fuck the troops? Sure, they're proletarians and predominantly lower-class but when this was said about the police in another thread everyone spammed ACAB to show how much of a badass mofo they were and to promote their individualist-subculturalist politics. So I'm going to just say it: Fuck The Troops. Particularly the ones who are so reactionary that they actually want to be there to serve their country like a good and obedient patriotic dog. I bet most of you are Americans and possibly closet-nationalists. Good day.
It's a conspiracy, I tell you!

No, really, thanks for engaging with everyone on specific points you disagree with, rather than reiterating the same condescending crap. I bet you're not from the US and don't understand the domestic function of the military here as, how did I put it before? Oh, right!


... In the US, the military functions as the last vestige of the welfare state ... vacuuming up those without a future to help administer the US's global hegemony. ...


... Do you know who goes to the front lines to be shot at? Poor enlistees with low education levels who had little other choice in life but to join the army or become a janitor. The ones with an ASVAB score too low for the military to justify them being anything but cannon fodder. ...

Last I checked, there is no economic coercion involved in joining the police in the US.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

My views on the troops are similar to my views on the cops. I don't support either. I'm more inclined to defend the troops however, because many have to join out on necessity.

[Zealot]

It's a conspiracy, I tell you!

No, really, thanks for engaging with everyone on specific points you disagree with, rather than reiterating the same condescending crap. I bet you're not from the US and don't understand the domestic function of the military here as, how did I put it before? Oh, right!

Aren't you smart. That applies to most places not just the US. The same could be said of the police force.


Last I checked, there is no economic coercion involved in joining the police in the US.

Because the police are all totally from a bourgeois background.

You're making a distinction where there is none because you buy into the whole jingoist "support our troops" nonsense.

[Fourth Internationalist]

It's okay to say fuck the police but not fuck the troops? Sure, they're proletarians and predominantly lower-class but when this was said about the police in another thread everyone spammed ACAB to show how much of a badass mofo they were and to promote their individualist-subculturalist politics. So I'm going to just say it: Fuck The Troops. Particularly the ones who are so reactionary that they actually want to be there to serve their country like a good and obedient patriotic dog. I bet most of you are Americans and possibly closet-nationalists. Good day.

Most people in both are proletarians and thus do not deserve to be "fucked."

[Zealot]

Most people in both are proletarians and thus do not deserve to be "fucked."

Right. The main point was that some here are making a distinction where there is none and the only reason I can think of is because they are closet jingoists.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Right. The main point was that some here are making a distinction where there is none and the only reason I can think of is because they are closet jingoists.

I think it's merely a certain way of reasoning that leads to a different conclusion than you or I rather than nationalism.

[Ostrinski]

It's okay to say fuck the police but not fuck the troops? Sure, they're proletarians and predominantly lower-class but when this was said about the police in another thread everyone spammed ACAB to show how much of a badass mofo they were and to promote their individualist-subculturalist politics. So I'm going to just say it: Fuck The Troops. Particularly the ones who are so reactionary that they actually want to be there to serve their country like a good and obedient patriotic dog. I bet most of you are Americans and possibly closet-nationalists. Good day.Senseless post. A policeman's position in society is defined by their being the armed wing of the state and not in a precarious manner, but in a manner of being in a state of constant defense of the ruling class by being the sword and shield of their state. Their livelihood, their existence, all that they are is whatever their police work needs them to be. Being in a state of constant defense of the ruling classes effectively reflects itself in the policeman's consciousness. That is why, as we all know, it as natural for the policeman to harbor an extremely reactionary level of social consciousness and perspective, and as it has been said, the police often have a higher level of bourgeois class consciousness than the bourgeoisie do.

On the other hand, you have the soldier who is sent overseas to do the dirty work of the ruling class external to the nation. Yes, it is true that the nature of their work is inhumane and unspeakably brutal, and in many ways more so than even that of the policeman's work. However, this classification is not permanent. After serving in whatever conflict they are made to serve, they come home and play the role the worker and the average citizen, and many times are forced to become homeless (my mom is a social worker and has interracted with many of them. There are entire communities of them, and their condition really is a miserable one). Our social consciousness is determined by our interactions with the world around us, with society. That is why it is easier for the soldier to hold less reactionary views upon returning home, although this does not always happen.

It is true what you say about soldiers buying into the whole "defending freedom" and "serving the nation" shtick that they are indoctrinated with and how reactionary it is (I would even apply the same standard to armed forces of oppressed nations and Marxist-Leninist regimes, tis why I oppose national liberation, self-determination, and anti-imperialism). But let us remember that no armed body can fulfill its societal duties (defense of the state and the ruling class) without ideological indoctrination. And the great number of them come back harboring that indoctrination. My grandfather is a Vietnam veteran and he is to this day a fierce nationalist. However, the great number of them that understand that things like the wars they were involved in were and are wrong are not to be written off as insignificant, because they are numerous. All they need is to be exposed to socialist ideas so that they can understand what the role of the state is and the role that the armed bodies of the state play in the broader picture.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

And I'd go further than that - I'm happy when I hear about soldiers getting killed. That's one less sociopath
Says the person who gets his jollies from death. :rolleyes:

There's nothing to cheer about working class people, even ones laboring under false consciousness, being used as cannon fodder by the bourgeoisie. We should instead be saddened by the waste of life that capitalism always brings with it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Most of the troops in the USA are not from a poor or very precarious background. Most come from a relatively comfortable working class background, and if you were to label it in popular sociological terms they'd probably be from the middle class. I think there's often this myth that most troops are somehow duped by recruiters that have been sent into their miserable ghetto somewhere, but this is not the case.

I'm not necessarily opposed to "troops" as an abstract entity. However I do think that the troops here in the USA will follow orders to the letter (unless they rebel out of pure fear for their lives), and I don't see many of them being converted to the cause of the left. All-volunteer armies can be turned into effecient tools of oppression much easier than drafted armies.

[Zealot]

Senseless post. A policeman's position in society is defined by their being the armed wing of the state and not in a precarious manner, but in a manner of being in a state of constant defense of the ruling class by being the sword and shield of their state. Their livelihood, their existence, all that they are is whatever their police work needs them to be. Being in a state of constant defense of the ruling classes effectively reflects itself in the policeman's consciousness. That is why, as we all know, it as natural for the policeman to harbor an extremely reactionary level of social consciousness and perspective, and as it has been said, the police often have a higher level of bourgeois class consciousness than the bourgeoisie do.

Pretty much all of that applies to the military as well. And how can you say that the police have a "higher level of bourgeois class consciousness" when such a thing would be required of a soldier to an even greater degree?


On the other hand, you have the soldier who is sent overseas to do the dirty work of the ruling class external to the nation. Yes, it is true that the nature of their work is inhumane and unspeakably brutal, and in many ways more so than even that of the policeman's work. However, this classification is not permanent. After serving in whatever conflict they are made to serve, they come home and play the role the worker and the average citizen, and many times are forced to become homeless (my mom is a social worker and has interracted with many of them. There are entire communities of them, and their condition really is a miserable one). Our social consciousness is determined by our interactions with the world around us, with society. That is why it is easier for the soldier to hold less reactionary views upon returning home, although this does not always happen.

Less reactionary? Are you kidding? Veterans are often the most reactionary people around, still proud of their having served for imperialism. Let's face it, there's a double standard being advanced here because our bourgeois culture promotes respect for veterans and troops. I don't even hear this much respect for former cops who probably spent most of their time giving out speeding tickets and eating donuts. So after serving they come home and get jobs like everyone else? Boo fucking hoo. Doesn't make them any better than a cop. I know that an admin on this forum was once a footsoldier of imperialism but let's not pretend we have to respect them.

[NewBoss]

I know a troop who returned home from the experience changed. He is now a communist. So the idea that all troops will return to "beat their wives and fill up our prisons." Is a childish stereotype. You seem to be beating your chest on this one.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

The level of personal hatred levelled at complete strangers because of the shitty job they've decided to take on / been forced to take on is baffling to me.
I do not support the troops / the wars they fight, I don't identify with anyone who chooses to lead that life or believes in 'fighting for your country' and all that shit. But I do not rejoice at anyone's death (for the worst of people, the most I would offer is indifference, never joy or celebration).

[Zealot]

I've never seen so much fail, hypocrisy and nationalism in one thread. No one here is rejoicing in the deaths of your beloved soldiers but I'll put it this way: when I hear about American/British/etc. soldiers dying at such and such a place I give not one fuck. You all feel offended by this because most of you are American or British ergo my accusation of nationalism is completely warranted.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I've never seen so much fail, hypocrisy and nationalism in one thread. No one here is rejoicing in the deaths of your beloved soldiers but I'll put it this way: when I hear about American/British/etc. soldiers dying at such and such a place I give not one fuck. You all feel offended by this because most of you are American or British ergo my accusation of nationalism is completely warranted.

Communists should care about people who join the military. It's our job to convince them to our cause, not give them a reason to be against it.

[Brutus]

I agree, all have placed themselves in the hands of the bourgeoisie, and by doing that have relinquished their title of proletarian. They have become but a tool of the ruling classes to oppress proletarians around the globe

[Riveraxis]

It was always the working class folk who (voluntarily or not) were drafted in to armies through history as cannon fodder. But nowadays, not so much. Many people are joining the military because of their nationalist reactionary views. They want to "support their country" and other crap.

Still, there is a certain number of working class people who are joining the army today because they can't really get a job.


Totally. Most people I've known who have gone to the military did so because they either couldn't finish college or couldn't find a job. Not because they were monsters that wanted to go kill Arabs or something.
And there are plenty of military positions that see no action at all.

But behind the hoards of robotic nationalist commie killers, there are a handful of conspirators. So blaiming the individual when he's just taking orders from the legion isn't doing anyone justice.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I agree, all have placed themselves in the hands of the bourgeoisie, and by doing that have relinquished their title of proletarian. They have become but a tool of the ruling classes to oppress proletarians around the globe

They are people who have been fed propaganda all their life. They're victims not oppressors.

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

As much as the proletarians who join the army deserve our solidarity, I feel more keen on those (also proletarians) who are killed by them.

When I hear "Fuck the Troops" I understand it as "we do not support our proletarians killing other proletarians" or "we refuse to support proletarians killing each other in the name of the bourgeoisie".



I agree, all have placed themselves in the hands of the bourgeoisie, and by doing that have relinquished their title of proletarian. They have become but a tool of the ruling classes to oppress proletarians around the globe

No, they have not relinquished their title of proletarian. If we follow your logic, we will never support anyone, because it is necessary a huge chain of people to maintain capitalism; i.e., we would not support people who work on banks, for example.

The proletarians in the army, making the bourgeoisie's dirt work, again, must not be forgotten. If they are convinced in not fighting for the ruling class, there is no bloodshed.

[LeonJWilliams]

The level of personal hatred levelled at complete strangers because of the shitty job they've decided to take on / been forced to take on is baffling to me.
I do not support the troops / the wars they fight, I don't identify with anyone who chooses to lead that life or believes in 'fighting for your country' and all that shit. But I do not rejoice at anyone's death (for the worst of people, the most I would offer is indifference, never joy or celebration).

The problem is that it's not just a shitty job. These people make a decision, they sign a contract and agree to take up arms, go to foreign countries and kill people, irrespective of who those people are and why they are there.

Someone who makes this decision is not someone I want to support, know or care about.

[Comrade Jandar]

Even if the soliders are not directly involved in combat, they still make the machine work. When a proletarian becomes a solider they become class traitors, regardless of whether or not they are aware of this. One cannot fulfill the role of soldier without betraying their class interests. This is not a moral judgement, it's an objective fact. I really don't think we can compare the modern militaries to those of WWI Russia.

[Geiseric]

Even if the soliders are not directly involved in combat, they still make the machine work. When a proletarian becomes a solider they become class traitors, regardless of whether or not they are aware of this. One cannot fulfill the role of soldier without betraying their class interests. This is not a moral judgement, it's an objective fact. I really don't think we can compare the modern militaries to those of WWI Russia.

what's the difference of the armies? the officer caste just uses different tactics and loses a whole lot less soldiers in today's army, but joining the WW1 Russian army is basically the same as joining the U.S. army, seeing as mostly poorer people are the main ones who join it.

I agree with the other stuff though. More or less, you can't avoid the fact that you're participate in imperialism by joining the military. But technically every branch of the economy does that, including gun manufacture, oil drilling, farming, etc.

[Rusty Shackleford]

so, a worker with the conscience of bourgeois ideology joins the military, how then are they a class traitor if they are not consciously opposing their own interests?

[JPSartre12]

"Fuck the troops"?

That's shameful.

[ola.]

As someone who has served in Iraq myself in 2006, I say that you shouldn't support the troops. If you've ever actually been on the ground and have been witness to the degrading and criminal treatment of the troops against Iraqis and Afghanis, you'd be scared. It would be clear then and there who the real terrorists are. The military basically trains you to be a monster, to be your very worst. They train you to view Iraqis as lower forms of life. I claim full responsibility for my actions throughout my "service", no matter how brainwashed I was and how misguided I was with my patriotism. I don't reject any "criticism" for the role I played in the war because I understand it and accept it. All I say is that I don't need your shame because I have my own, which haunts me every waking and sleeping moment.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

While I feel like "Support the troops!" is vile and transparently reactionary, I'm not convinced that "Fuck the troops!" (while a perfectly understandable attitude) is a particularly useful slogan at the current juncture, or, at least, only in very specific situations. Like, in the case of a popular antimilitarist upsurge, wherein "Fuck the troops!" became commonsense, it might have some serious chance of damaging their morale and fighting capacity. Right now? Seems slim.
Consequently, I think the immediate tasks of counter-recruitment and sewing discord among the troops are better served by reasoned critiques of nationalism, imperialism, and the armed forces' relationships to said. My experience of socializing with soldiers and sailors (the former disproportionately from my corner of the country, and my home city being the headquarters of Canada's Atlantic fleet) is that an invested conversation can be mutually beneficial. A few hours can provide armed forces personel with historical context and analysis, and thereby sow doubts which may yet proliferate among service people, and can provide radicals with real first-hand stories of the way the armed forces indoctrinate people, knowledge about relationships between officers and soldiers, familiarity with the impact of combat on soldiers, etc.

[The Douche]

Both formulations are uselessly devoid of content.

Support them in what?
Fuck them because why?

Neither crowd can ever explain what exactly supporting really means or how they actually do/don't do it.

As far as non-combat soldiers being somehow "better" than combat arms troops, that makes no sense. The purpose of a military to to fight and win engagements, that is done by putting soldiers on the ground, the entire organization works to enable that. Every single corps exists to support the infantry.

To those who would discount the appeal of conflict, the desire to test oneself on the battlefield, obviously you don't feel that appeal, that does not mean it doesn't exist in others. For the rest of my life I will have to contend with both, a deep sense of shame and regret for my military service, and at the same time, an emtpiness, and a longing for combat, now that I've tasted it.

[Fourth Internationalist]

For the rest of my life I will have to contend with both, a deep sense of shame and regret for my military service,

Which part of the military were you a part of, and what was your job?

[The Douche]

Which part of the military were you a part of, and what was your job?

Army infantry, various different kinds of combat arms units.

[DarkPast]

My experience with Yugoslav war veterans is that many of them are extremely reactionary - even the conscripts. And I don't mean just blind patriotism: xenophobic nationalism, homophobia, racism and even outright fascism are all depressingly common among soldiers and veterans. Furthermore, veterans' organizations here in Croatia wield considerable influence over public opinion, which is very unfortunate for us leftists.

And perhaps the worst thing is, since Croatia didn't have a real army at the beginning of the Yugoslav Wars, the initial fighting was left to police and political volunteers. This means that there's still a form of "brotherhood" between the veterans and the cops. During one social protest back in 2011, some veterans stubbornly tried to "protect" the cops from the protesters...

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

^Cripes.
I guess it goes to show that any generalization as regards "troops" is pretty silly, and probably there are specificities of particular armies that warrant consideration.

[DasFapital]

Well since they know how to fight I think we should be trying to get them on our side.

[B5C]

To those who would discount the appeal of conflict, the desire to test oneself on the battlefield, obviously you don't feel that appeal, that does not mean it doesn't exist in others. For the rest of my life I will have to contend with both, a deep sense of shame and regret for my military service, and at the same time, an emtpiness, and a longing for combat, now that I've tasted it.

I wonder if my father has the same feeling. I never talks about this military days as much.

[The Douche]

I wonder if my father has the same feeling. I never talks about this military days as much.

Well I get exposed to thoughts and comments that veterans won't share with anybody else, because of our shared experience.

Almost every guy I know who saw real action ends up very torn, on the one hand you'll hear them talk about how they don't want to go back, people died for nothing, we can't win, there isn't even such a thing as "winning" this war, how leadership is inept and getting people killed etc, and then 10 minutes later they're talking about how they can't wait to deploy again and can't wait to get back over there.

One big thing, especially for those of us in combat arms, is that we don't have any skills that are valuable in the real world. There is nothing for us to come back home to, and we are never able to fully reintegrate to society (I came home almost 5 years ago, and I still struggle with hyperawareness), and so while most of the guys had negative experiences in the war, it is now the only place they feel like they belong.

[Desy]

OP. That was a good article, but you ruined it with your stereotypical nonsense at the end. You can't say "Fuck the Troops", because it's not really their fault. They are still the poor oppressed people that have to find a way to survive in a capitalistic society. Now you can say, "Fuck Nationalism", or, "Fuck Imperialism". Just take a step back. Do you think a good majority of the army personal would join; if they had a positive future with money and a job opportunity?

Defiantly don't praise them and give them a "God" complex if you don't like what they're doing, but don't forsake them. I'm a factory worker and sometimes I have to buy cheap clothes, and they were probably made from an factory that is oppressive and supports child slave labor - and from Walmart :P. My point here is me buying those clothes supports the system just as much as the people who have to be meat shield's for Capitalistic-Imperialism system.

So new title: Fuck Capitalism's Oppression on People - The Troops Struggle.

[The Douche]

OP. That was a good article, but you ruined it with your stereotypical nonsense at the end. You can't say "Fuck the Troops", because it's not really their fault. They are still the poor oppressed people that have to find a way to survive in a capitalistic society. Now you can say, "Fuck Nationalism", or, "Fuck Imperialism". Just take a step back. Do you think a good majority of the army personal would join; if they had a positive future with money and a job opportunity?

Defiantly don't praise them and give them a "God" complex if you don't like what they're doing, but don't forsake them. I'm a factory worker and sometimes I have to buy cheap clothes, and they were probably made from an factory that is oppressive and supports child slave labor - and from Walmart :P. My point here is me buying those clothes supports the system just as much as the people who have to be meat shield's for Capitalistic-Imperialism system.

So new title: Fuck Capitalism's Oppression on People - The Troops Struggle.


The military, especially in regards to the US and its allies, is not a "meat shield", it is the tip of the bayonet.

Each soldier did make a choice to enlist. I joined the army, even though I knew what that meant, because I valued my own comfort over the lives and autonomy of others. That is an objective fact, that each soldier has to deal with when they become a revolutionary. We cannot absolve individuals of their responsibility, we can only be good friends to them as they work their way through it.

[Desy]

The military, especially in regards to the US and its allies, is not a "meat shield", it is the tip of the bayonet.

We weren't talking about just US troops, but any country telling the citizens to support the troops. And I don't want to try and point blame to a specific country, because it's all horrible and we are in this together. US crimes to humans are just as bad Germany's, Mexico's, and so on, and WE as a race need to work together on stopping it. You might want to go see a doctor, because I think you caught your self a bad case of Nationalism.


Each soldier did make a choice to enlist. I joined the army, even though I knew what that meant, because I valued my own comfort over the lives and autonomy of others.No he didn't. That is some reactionary hog swallow. I didn't choose to work at a factory to support myself, this system threw me there, from life experiences, events, choices and what ever guided my path. My factory job does help to oppress people in other countries, and the company just screws its employees. You don't value comfort in your life more than anyone else. Anyone who has a job in this system; then values their comfort over someone's life with your logic. That's some Hippie shit, 420 is over ;). YOU were just born into a family that was a higher class than some of the world, and some were not lucky and were born in a worse part of the world than we are at. It is the system. Because it was all luck of where your parents are. (Please don't say, "Then get a different job and stop oppressing other people in countries." Because than you're missing the whole point and it's not even worth talking to you anymore and I don't want to ruin a good discussion.)


That is an objective fact, that each soldier has to deal with when they become a revolutionary. We cannot absolve individuals of their responsibility, we can only be good friends to them as they work their way through it.What??? I'm sympathetic and I kind of romanticize a part of Individualism, but that's a different topic. But I don't get what you're trying to say. The only thing we can't absolve is if the individual is a reactionary or not. Other than that it's capitalism, neo-liberalism bourgeois politics.

[Slippers]

I have friends who're soldiers. Friends I regard as good people.

I am anti-military and anti-war, but I won't call myself against "the troops". It's worth noting that many, many people in the military are young people who joined up because they didn't have alternative opportunities. A lot of folks who aren't so well to do when it comes down to it. It can be the only option for some people.

[Akshay!]

Some soldiers go into it genuinely thinking they're doing the right thing, and you can't blame them,

What? Nazis also genuinely believed that they were "doing the right thing" that doesn't mean "you can't blame them". You must blame them.

But at the same time


If revolution comes and we want to win, having the military on our side might be helpful. Critisize wisely.

[The Jay]

I think that it needs to be a case by case thing. It cannot be a blanket statement like that since there are too many variables involved.

[Red Nightmare]

You have to realize that brainwashing and propaganda is a large part of military training. Soldiers are constantly fed pro-establishment, pro-statist, and reactionary propaganda. They are conditioned not to emotionally respond to killing for the establishment. While some may desert in a revolutionary situation, don't count on it. Remember that the primary goal of a soldier as part of the military, which is itself an extension of class power is to defend bourgeois class interests and the state.

[B5C]

You have to realize that brainwashing and propaganda is a large part of military training. Soldiers are constantly fed pro-establishment, pro-statist, and reactionary propaganda. They are conditioned not to emotionally respond to killing for the establishment. While some may desert in a revolutionary situation, don't count on it. Remember that the primary goal of a soldier as part of the military, which is itself an extension of class power is to defend bourgeois class interests and the state.

Phoenix, there are some soldiers who love the propganda stuff because if feels them with nationalistic fervor. Yet, my father and many of my friends are not in the same boat as you blanket there. There were many who came out of the military against the military system we have in place.

[Red Nightmare]

Phoenix, there are some soldiers who love the propganda stuff because if feels them with nationalistic fervor. Yet, my father and many of my friends are not in the same boat as you blanket there. There were many who came out of the military against the military system we have in place.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I was talking about the general structure of the military as a whole. Of course there are always exceptions. My father was also in the military and he is anti-war and opposes the hierarchal and reactionary structure of the current military as well.

[Leo]

Fuck The Troops

I'm sure some would appreciate that but you can't possibly argue that all the soldiers are homosexuals.

Sorry, it was irresistible.

The general proletarian line on soldiers is, and has always been, a call for them to turn their weapons against their officers - not to say "to hell with them".

[black magick hustla]

um just wanted to say that the social context of american troops today is way different than when it was draftees. the whole "revolutionary soldier" thing has only existed in the context of the draft. i think the whole "its a choiceless working class choice" has kinda become a doctrine, while there are plenty of people who are "working class" and do not choose the soldiering route imo

[Leo]

Perhaps, but the financial benefits lead a great deal of people to end up in military service anyway.

[black magick hustla]

Perhaps, but the financial benefits lead a great deal of people to end up in military service anyway.

and makes them become cops, gang members, cartel sicarios, etc.

i am just saying that the whole context of "revolutionary organizing" within soldiers only existed in the draft. i think the social composition of american troops today is way different than, 1960s vietnam - where soldiers did turn their bayonets against their sergants and lieutenants.

[Leo]

and makes them become cops, gang members, cartel sicarios, etc.

Yes. But there is a difference between becoming a cop and a gang member, as well as becoming a soldier. Possibly a larger difference when soldiers are considered, given it is not a life choice.


i am just saying that the whole context of "revolutionary organizing" within soldiers only existed in the draft. i think the social composition of american troops today is way different than, 1960s vietnam - where soldiers did turn their bayonets against their sergants and lieutenants.

The fact that it is not like it was in the days of Vietnam doesn't change the main issue - the anti-War movement isn't what it was either for that matter.

[Prof. Oblivion]

The only difference between US soldiers and mercenaries is who they're getting paid by.

Are mercenaries proletarian, now?

[Bostana]

And I'd go further than that - I'm happy when I hear about soldiers getting killed. That's one less sociopath coming home to beat their wife and fill up our prisons. They're the scum of society and they're better off dead.

That's fucking disgusting.

Have you notice what the military is full of? The poor people of america. The sons and daughters of workers. Does this justify American war crimes? No! But the majority of the time people join the military is because they have no other option. Most of the time their family can't afford to send them off to college, so they join the military who will help fund their school bill and they might not have to live on the streets. Which, don't get me wrong, is a sick plot by the U.S. government to get more people to join their army so they can have their imperialist wars. Very few into the whole, "pride for your country" shit. If this were the case then they're would be sons of CEOs joining the army and the U.S. government wouldn't have to do all these special programs. Like what Bill Cosby said above, they're like mercenaries for hire. They have no where else to go. The bourgeois government is making mercenaries out of the proletariat.

[Prof. Oblivion]

That's fucking disgusting.

Have you notice what the military is full of? The poor people of america. The sons and daughters of workers. Does this justify American war crimes? No! But the majority of the time people join the military is because they have no other option. Most of the time their family can't afford to send them off to college, so they join the military who will help fund their school bill and they might not have to live on the streets. Which, don't get me wrong, is a sick plot by the U.S. government to get more people to join their army so they can have their imperialist wars. Very few into the whole, "pride for your country" shit. If this were the case then they're would be sons of CEOs joining the army and the U.S. government wouldn't have to do all these special programs. Like what Bill Cosby said above, they're like mercenaries for hire. They have no where else to go. The bourgeois government is making mercenaries out of the proletariat.

That's simply not true. (http://www.defense.gov/news/Dec2005/d20051213mythfact.pdf)

[Bostana]

That's simply not true. (http://www.defense.gov/news/Dec2005/d20051213mythfact.pdf)
You're gonna use a conservative paper that is trying to justify everything the U.S. military does by supposedly refuting myths? oy :glare:
Well let's look at the graph. First off it has 4 different sub-classes for the working class. Second they have look at them compared to the petit-bourgeois and bourgeois. It's like comparing Godzilla to a kitten. Third, This basically proves my point how the lower classes are usually the ones who end up fighting in the war

[Deity]

The troops being poor does not change my opinion. They may have been working class before, and they may be working class after, but during their "service" they are the fist of the Imperial states of America.

[Klaatu]

I'm happy when I hear about soldiers getting killed. That's one less sociopath coming home to beat their wife and fill up our prisons. They're the scum of society and they're better off dead.

Don't hate the soldier, hate the war.

[Orange Juche]

This type of thinking, to me, is insanely simplistic and the analogies are false equivocations.

First, you have to look at why people join the military, and there are a number of reasons. Some are impoverished (and therefore likely had a poor education) and don't know better, and with the propaganda job the military does in getting those types of people, it's easy - because it's easy money with a promise of an education and such to people who aren't educated enough to know better.

Then, there's people who just don't know better who honestly believe they're defending us and our "freedoms" (whatever that may mean to them) - in that poor analogy, they may be doing the lynching, but they don't realize what they're doing is lynching. It's veiled behind heavy propaganda and rhetoric.

For a group of people who talk about how we are the product of our conditions and such, too many people are awfully quick to throw these people under the bus. As far as I'm concerned it's childish, simple minded, ideological masturbation that comes with no serious analysis into the conditions which brought 99.9% of these people into the military in the first place and why "Fuck the Troops" is a shitty thing to say.

[Bostana]

The troops being poor does not change my opinion. They may have been working class before, and they may be working class after, but during their "service" they are the fist of the Imperial states of America.

Ok. I understand, when a U.S. soldier kills a civilian purposely it is sick and he should be jailed for the rest of his or her life. But you can't hate them because they sign up. As I said they sign up because they have no other option, they sing up so they have a job and they now where their next meal is coming from, they sign up because they need college funding so they can get a degree and maybe get a job so they can live under a roof. Now I don't support the military, I think it's wrong that the U.S. government uses the under-privileged to be the fist in enforcing their Imperialist wars, and I think people in the military simply shouldn't fight for the U.S. wars anymore. But I am not glad when I hear about soldiers and people dying in the war. I'm pissed that the U.S. does this kind of shit so they can make a better profit.

[Prof. Oblivion]

You're gonna use a conservative paper that is trying to justify everything the U.S. military does by supposedly refuting myths? oy :glare:
Well let's look at the graph. First off it has 4 different sub-classes for the working class. Second they have look at them compared to the petit-bourgeois and bourgeois. It's like comparing Godzilla to a kitten. Third, This basically proves my point how the lower classes are usually the ones who end up fighting in the war

Okay, here's a liberal study saying the same thing:



Recruit Zip Code Income
Unfortunately, the military offers no data on recruits' household incomes. However, we do know the median household income of each recruit’s zip code. Using this data we can explore whether recruits tend to come from poor, middle-class, or wealthy zip codes.
Figure 1 illustrates the likely economic background of military recruits for the years 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010. Each decile on the vertical y-axis represents 10 percent of the youth population, 18-24 years old. The first decile represents the 10 percent coming from the poorest zip codes while the tenth decile represents the wealthiest zip codes. As in past years, youth from both the poorest and the wealthiest zip codes are underrepresented this year. For example, in 2010 only 7 percent of recruits came from the poorest zip codes, even though those zip codes contain 10 percent of the American youth population.

http://nationalpriorities.org/media/uploads/publications/military_recruitment_2010/figure1.png

http://nationalpriorities.org/analysis/2011/military-recruitment-2010/Happy?

[Bostana]

Okay, here's a liberal study saying the same thing:

Liberals are just as stupid as conservatives :glare:



Happy?

Did you even read this whole report? Or was it a random Google search? All this says is that there is a slight decreasing in the lower classes joining the war. There are still more people from the lower classes who join the military than there is that of upper classes. As I said earlier you're comparing Godzilla to a kitten. But since yo're just throwing links at me, here's one:http://enlist.military.com/68/top-10-reasons-to-join-the-military/
As you can see, the top purposes are for money, education, and career.

[Prof. Oblivion]

Liberals are just as stupid as conservatives :glare:


Then perhaps we shouldn't believe anything we read, as almost everything is written by a liberal or conservative. :glare:

Perhaps you should think more critically and pick apart the merits of the study if you actually have an argument against it, instead of ignorantly dismissing it outright because you don't.



Did you even read this whole report? Or was it a random Google search? All this says is that there is a slight decreasing in the lower classes joining the war. There are still more people from the lower classes who join the military than there is that of upper classes. As I said earlier you're comparing Godzilla to a kitten. But since yo're just throwing links at me, here's one:http://enlist.military.com/68/top-10-reasons-to-join-the-military/
As you can see, the top purposes are for money, education, and career.No, the graph that I quoted directly shows that 2007-2010, even at the height of unemployment, at the height of the recession, the majority of recruits were "middle class," i.e. a normal distribution around the fifth decile, and that the majority of recruits therefore aren't disproportionately "poor" or low-income. In fact, the study concludes that the poor, in comparison to the population as a whole, are underrepresented in military recruitment (7% vs. the 10% population).

[The Intransigent Faction]

Don't hate the soldier, hate the war.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/p480x480/561837_3835602569296_1555714608_n.jpg

[Bostana]

No, the graph that I quoted directly shows that 2007-2010, even at the height of unemployment, at the height of the recession, the majority of recruits were "middle class," i.e. a normal distribution around the fifth decile, and that the majority of recruits therefore aren't disproportionately "poor" or low-income. In fact, the study concludes that the poor, in comparison to the population as a whole, are underrepresented in military recruitment (7% vs. the 10% population).

Ok so what's you're point? I did say that the majority joining are of the lower classes (i.e. middle class, lower-mid, downscale. Even if I was right about the poor being the majority, I was still right about the lower classes joining, and I was still right about the reason why these lower class people join the military usually involve financial reasons (http://enlist.military.com/68/top-10-reasons-to-join-the-military/).

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/p480x480/561837_3835602569296_1555714608_n.jpg

And what of the 12 year old boys who were forced to fight?
And I'm not saying support the troops

[Prof. Oblivion]

Ok so what's you're point? I did say that the majority joining are of the lower classes (i.e. middle class, lower-mid, downscale. Even if I was right about the poor being the majority, I was still right about the lower classes joining, and I was still right about the reason why these lower class people join the military usually involve financial reasons (http://enlist.military.com/68/top-10-reasons-to-join-the-military/).


Lol, well first, the fifth decile is not a "lower class". And the the normal distribution indicates that it is not "mostly the lower classes" but rather split right down the middle between "mostly the lower classes" and "mostly the upper classes". That's what a normal distribution is.

Second, that's not what you said. You said:


Have you notice what the military is full of? The poor people of america. The sons and daughters of workers. Does this justify American war crimes? No! But the majority of the time people join the military is because they have no other option. Most of the time their family can't afford to send them off to college, so they join the military who will help fund their school bill and they might not have to live on the streets. Which, don't get me wrong, is a sick plot by the U.S. government to get more people to join their army so they can have their imperialist wars. Very few into the whole, "pride for your country" shit. If this were the case then they're would be sons of CEOs joining the army and the U.S. government wouldn't have to do all these special programs. Like what Bill Cosby said above, they're like mercenaries for hire. They have no where else to go. The bourgeois government is making mercenaries out of the proletariat.
Ok. I understand, when a U.S. soldier kills a civilian purposely it is sick and he should be jailed for the rest of his or her life. But you can't hate them because they sign up. As I said they sign up because they have no other option, they sing up so they have a job and they now where their next meal is coming from, they sign up because they need college funding so they can get a degree and maybe get a job so they can live under a roof. Now I don't support the military, I think it's wrong that the U.S. government uses the under-privileged to be the fist in enforcing their Imperialist wars, and I think people in the military simply shouldn't fight for the U.S. wars anymore. But I am not glad when I hear about soldiers and people dying in the war. I'm pissed that the U.S. does this kind of shit so they can make a better profit. 1. The military is not "full of" poor people. In fact, relative to the population, the poor are underrepresented.
2. The majority of the time people are not joining the military because they have no other option.
3. The majority of people are not joining so they don't have to "live on the streets".
4. They do have elsewhere to go.
5. They are not signing up "so they know where their next meal is coming from".

[Bostana]

Lol, well first, the fifth decile is not a "lower class". And the the normal distribution indicates that it is not "mostly the lower classes" but rather split right down the middle between "mostly the lower classes" and "mostly the upper classes". That's what a normal distribution is.

So the upper-middle and the upper give more than the rest? Is that what you're telling me? I admitted I was wrong about the majority being poor. But I did say that the lower classes are the ones that usually join the military. Are you even reading these or just skimming through? And did you even read the link i sent you?


Second, that's not what you said. You said:

1. The military is not "full of" poor people. In fact, relative to the population, the poor are underrepresented.
2. The majority of the time people are not joining the military because they have no other option.
3. The majority of people are not joining so they don't have to "live on the streets".
4. They do have elsewhere to go.
5. They are not signing up "so they know where their next meal is coming from".

All you did there was take what i said and said no. You didn't even do anything. You just did five separate lines of one liners. Ok so I'm going to try one more time to be clear. People, after they graduate high school, need to go to college to get a degree, so they can get a decent job so they can eat and sleep under a roof. Ok now, say someone can't afford to go to college. Then he looses the chances of getting a degree, which could get him a decent job, which get's him food etc, etc. Luckily for him the military gives out benefits. One of those benefits being a college fund. So this man, who can't afford college, joins the military so that way the United States government will pay for his college fee so that way he can get a decent job and making a living to fund his family.Do you understand what I am saying now? Also, I'm going to put an emphasis on the link i gave you, did you read it? Because it supports what I said.

[Lither]

how much more of the army joined the reaction?

Mostly officers. There's records around the place of the reactionaries having to form entire units of officers because they were so short of enlisted personnel.

[Klaatu]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/p480x480/561837_3835602569296_1555714608_n.jpg

Unfortunately, Brad, the soldier must do his job, and if not, he is under penalty of death. I should have also added "Hate the politician that sent the soldier off to kill, possibly against his/her better judgement."

I see your point about Nazis, but consider what would have happened to the average WWII German soldier, had he not "followed orders." What a fucked-up situation it was then (and is, even now!)

[Lither]

Unfortunately, Brad, the soldier must do his job, and if not, he is under penalty of death. I should have also added "Hate the politician that sent the soldier off to kill, possibly against his/her better judgement."

I see your point about Nazis, but consider what would have happened to the average WWII German soldier, had he not "followed orders." What a fucked-up situation it was then (and is, even now!)

Aa far as I know there was conscription that formed the Wehrmacht, which makes it a bad analogy - considering anyone of conscriptionable age who even tried to not serve was liable for punishment (excepting special circumstances).

[The Intransigent Faction]

Unfortunately, Brad, the soldier must do his job, and if not, he is under penalty of death. I should have also added "Hate the politician that sent the soldier off to kill, possibly against his/her better judgement."

I see your point about Nazis, but consider what would have happened to the average WWII German soldier, had he not "followed orders." What a fucked-up situation it was then (and is, even now!)

Even the judges at Nuremburg didn't buy the "We were just following orders!" excuse.

Sure, people are forced into horrible situations and it's understandable that many of them would cave in and "follow orders" out of fear (but unfortunately more likely and probably more often out of genuine belief that what they are doing is somehow justified). Does that mean we should support their actions, or absolve those who unfortunately were rather enthusiastic about their atrocities? NO.

"the soldier must do his job"? I'm sure the Bradley Mannings of the world would agree.

[Akshay!]

If even 10% of the soldiers act like Nidal Hassan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan) all wars resulting from US Imperialism would stop. In fact, this is one reason why the Americans lost in Vietnam, a good part of the army turned against itself. There were other reasons too of course - the main one being the effective guerilla warfare techniques used by the Vietcong.

And please stop these "they have no other choice" arguments. They have a choice to kill themselves. That's a wayyyyyy better choice than killing a thousand Iraqis. If you deny this, you're just closing your ears and shouting "An American life is more important than an Iraqi life".

[DannyMorin]

How about "Organize the troops" ?

Good luck explaining the Labour Theory Of Value to reactionary redneck high school dropouts.