If "Communism" in East Germany (GDR) was so terrible...

[PigmerikanMao]

So I've heard a lot of arguments from capitalists that socialism in the GDR was horrible or socialist apologists that have dismissed socialism in the GDR as fascist Soviet imperial occupation, but why then do so many people in the former East German states continue to vote communist?

In the 2009 Federal elections in Germany, Die Linke (lit. "The Left") whose platform is anti-capitalism/communism, won 12% of the national elections (coming in 4th place). What's surprising though is where these votes came from. In former GDR states, you'll be hard-pressed to find a state which didn't vote twice the national average for the communists. This is even true in East Berlin, where communist repression was supposedly carried out in untold extremes.

How do rightists/capitalists explain this phenomenon which has carried into the 21st century if the socialist system is truly broken and repressive?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Bundestag_2009_Linke.svg/523px-Bundestag_2009_Linke.svg.png

Larger Version of Above Map (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Bundestag_2009_Linke.svg)

[ed miliband]

ostalgie

[ed miliband]

plus, die linke's "platform" isn't communist...

[PigmerikanMao]

ostalgie

If this were the case, they'd be voting for the DKP successor party, not Die Linke.


plus, die linke's "platform" isn't communist...

PDS- the successor party that formed Die Linke was Marxist-Leninist up until 1990 when it reformed its core ideology to "Neo-Marxist." While Die Linke isn't officially communist (I'll give you that), most people in Germany are aware of the party's origins and that the majority faction in the party still considers itself communist.

Even if the official party line isn't hard left communism, there is still the phenomenon that the former GDR seems to be voting far more left on average than the rest of the country, be they neo-marxist, communist, or what have you.

[Os Cangaceiros]

East Germany (DDR) was definitely repressive and broken, in that it was unsustainable as a state. It was better than the rest of the eastern bloc, though. The standard of living was better although it wasn't on par with west Germany. In any case I don't see much point in arguing over the exact extent to which a dead state sucked. That's a task best left to the nostalgists.

[ed miliband]

If this were the case, they'd be voting for the DKP successor party, not Die Linke.

dkp is a "west german" party historically, however, right? whereas most votes of die linke, occur in the former gdr.


PDS- the successor party that formed Die Linke was Marxist-Leninist up until 1990 when it reformed its core ideology to "Neo-Marxist." While Die Linke isn't officially communist (I'll give you that), most people in Germany are aware of the party's origins and that the majority faction in the party still considers itself communist.

Even if the official party line isn't hard left communism, there is still the phenomenon that the former GDR seems to be voting far more left on average than the rest of the country, be they neo-marxist, communist, or what have you.

yeah, and pds came from an "east german" party, the sed... so i don't see how that disputes my initial point.

[AtarashiiSekai]

I once read an article from a German website/newspaper about how several of those people who were growing up in East Germany have nostalgia about the way it is back then, and wish to return to how it was run.

[Jason]

It's also interesting to note that people in the former "West Germany" don't like Communism. So could it be that former East Germans like Communism (or really state capitalism), because they had a taste of it? Or could it be the depressed economy or a combo of the two factors?

[Ostrinski]

This is like saying "if capitalism was so bad in West Germany then why do people in west Germany continue to vote for capitalist parties!"

Communists look to the future, not to the past, for our political inspiration. And besides, if people in the east are voting for leftist parties because they want what they used to have because it was better, it doesn't mean anything particularly good for communists because I wouldn't regard the GDR as anything more in line with what we are striving for than what we have in market economies.

[Paul Pott]

Widespread nostalgia is the norm across East Europe. The only exceptions are the Baltics, Poland, and possibly Ukraine. At least before the economic crisis. These are for purely nationalist reasons. IIRC, it was Poland where some liberal think tank came out with a board game to "teach" younger Poles about how horrible things where under communism, because of rising nostalgia.

A tidbit, 31% of the population of Latvia and 44% of the population of Bulgaria now live in conditions of "severe material deprivation" according to the European Social Affairs Commissioner.

[Paul Pott]

Also, political history usually has a major effect on the culture, attitudes, and beliefs of regions of a country. The West vs. East divide in Germany is still fresh. Check this out:

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/poland_2007_election_results.jpg?w=478&h=503&h=368

This is the 2007 election results. Former German Empire/Third Reich vs Russian Poland.

[Paul Pott]

Not an election map, but they are the same. Liberals beat this horse to death here:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5217/5463830762_e373d872da.jpg

A certain reactionary regime once controlled the big red area in the southeast.

[Fruit of Ulysses]

theres a german bar not far from where I live, called the ratskeller. theres a handful of east germans there and they have all given me favorable memories varying from "better than it is now" to avid support (though that came from a former low level Stasi). Another explained to me that he just happened to be the type of person that enjoyed the discipline and structure of society as it was then. The Stasi guy said he left to join his family- but he didnt do that until the late 90s- when he said he knew "it was really over". For the first year or two he said him and his friends entertained the notion that the counter-revolution could be reversed, but that he realises now it was just a fantasy. the stasi guy gave me a very emotional explanation after a few beers, he had spent decades working towards something that dissolved in front of him in his ailing years. fuck capitalism

[Fruit of Ulysses]

correction: he left around 93/94, if it matters

[LeonJWilliams]

My understanding of the GDR is that it was a repressive police state but there were many guarantees from the state, such as housing, food etc.

With the current economic climate it's possible that East Germans would rather be repressed than homeless etc.

[svenne]

Isn't this nostalgia a somewhat common thing pretty much the whole industrialized world? In Sweden, our nationalist party talks about the golden age of the peoples home (and so does some of the the social democrats, but in a different way), in East Germany, they want to go back to the old state capitalist/whatever system, and you could probably pick example from your own home countries. The point is: living has begun to suck more the last thirty years or so, and people long back to the better and simpler times. While there's propably some progressive aspects of it, namely the defence of welfare systems and the workers in capitalism, it's still just nostalgia - not a want for communism. Problem is those years were created by history, and won't come back just because you want them to.

[Black_Rose]

My understanding of the GDR is that it was a repressive police state but there were many guarantees from the state, such as housing, food etc.

With the current economic climate it's possible that East Germans would rather be repressed than homeless etc.

Please tell us about what this "repression" precisely entails, especially when compared to the treatment of the citizens of contemporary neoliberal "democracies", and why it would be considered punitive and unnecessary for the welfare of the state.

All states impose restrictions on personal freedom but I want to know why any violations of the citizens' "natural" rights by a socialist state had any significant effect on the living standards of East German citizens. While a bourgeois republic/democracy has restrictions on civil liberties to protect the upper class from the majority, a socialist state focuses on protecting the working class (those who cannot make an independent living off of capital) from the financial, political, and cultural influence of the capitalists and foreign, imperialist threats. Yes, East Germans were not allowed to engage in private enterprise or emigrate, but they had relatively comfortable lives that allowed them to live in peace and dignity.

[LeonJWilliams]

Please tell us about what this "repression" precisely entails, especially when compared to the treatment of the citizens of contemporary neoliberal "democracies", and why it would be considered punitive and unnecessary for the welfare of the state.

All states impose restrictions on personal freedom but I want to know why any violations of the citizens' "natural" rights by a socialist state had any significant effect on the living standards of East German citizens. While a bourgeois republic/democracy has restrictions on civil liberties to protect the upper class from the majority, a socialist state focuses on protecting the working class (those who cannot make an independent living off of capital) from the financial, political, and cultural influence of the capitalists and foreign, imperialist threats. Yes, East Germans were not allowed to engage in private enterprise or emigrate, but they had relatively comfortable lives that allowed them to live in peace and dignity.

Well there are a few things that lead me to think this way (and please take note of how I started the sentence, 'my understanding') when the Berlin wall fell, the west didn't rush over to the east but people from the east poured into the west as quick as they could.
The actions of the GDR are reasonably well documented with free speech being particularly heavily punished, I mean we say now we don't have 'real' free speech but under the GDR it was a whole different ball game, Honecker in particular had no tolerance of any disagreement with him, the GDR and its policies.
I'm not saying anything in regard to standard of living but focusing on those personal freedoms, did you see the film 'The Life Of The Others'? definitely worth watching.
This kind of behaviour of bugging peoples homes, informing on your neighbours and then they are taken away and interrogated etc

[LeonJWilliams]

Oh, if I am wrong can you detail the facts with some evidence as I would very much like to know the truth and reality of the situation, maybe some periods of the GDR were better/worse than others.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Well there are a few things that lead me to think this way (and please take note of how I started the sentence, 'my understanding') when the Berlin wall fell, the west didn't rush over to the east but people from the east poured into the west as quick as they could


And then they went back. Wanted to see what the fuzz was all about - to cross the border, a momentous occasion, everyone wanted a glimpse of that great spectacle next door.


This kind of behaviour of bugging peoples homes, informing on your neighbours and then they are taken away and interrogated etc Despite all the Stasi paranoia, overall, DDR was very liberal and lenient. The total number of arrests were not extreme, and there were very few deaths, apart from those unlucky few who happened to be done in when crossing the border (numbering perhaps 200 or so during the history). Total employed in the security apparatus was also not all that high (comparable to what you expect from a western capitalist country [which I'd say it was, itself, too]), though the number of civilian informants was very great (almost 100,000), but overall had little bearing on most people's lives.

[LeonJWilliams]

Thanks Takayuki that's very interesting, do you can any good (reliable) links?

Maybe you'd be interested in a little blog write up on the subject for ACA's The Underground?

[Pelarys]

I'm not saying anything in regard to standard of living but focusing on those personal freedoms, did you see the film 'The Life Of The Others'? definitely worth watching.

I'm not particularly well versed in the history of the GDR, but this film in particular has been criticized for its lack of historical correctness before.

[Jason]

This is like saying "if capitalism was so bad in West Germany then why do people in west Germany continue to vote for capitalist parties!"

Communists look to the future, not to the past, for our political inspiration. And besides, if people in the east are voting for leftist parties because they want what they used to have because it was better, it doesn't mean anything particularly good for communists because I wouldn't regard the GDR as anything more in line with what we are striving for than what we have in market economies.


If you go BolshiVAK, you don't go back :D

[Conscript]

The left is (relatively) strong in the former GDR, but so is nationalism. At the root of the success of both, is the failure to integrate the two states properly and smoothly. Where capitalism is failing to deliver, or is in crisis, the (relative) radicals get stronger. That's all you should conclude about former east germany, not that the GDR was better regardless of whether it is or not in some respects.

[sixdollarchampagne]

My understanding of the GDR is that it was a repressive police state but there were many guarantees from the state, such as housing, food etc.

With the current economic climate it's possible that East Germans would rather be repressed than homeless etc.

The writer above puts its very well, I think. I remember when the first DDR citizens were allowed to travel to West Berlin; they were happy to be able to cross the border freely (you could see that in the pictures in the media), but they were reportedly shocked at how much everything cost in the West. I bet that simple difference accounts for a lot of "ostalgie."

It's a shame that the repressive SED regime so alienated citizens of the DDR; I have often wondered at how stalinism in power managed to accomplish what decades of bourgeois propaganda failed at – making "socialism" a dirty word among working people. I remember what our German language Prof, Herr Q from Dortmund, once told me, words to the effect that "What we [West Germans] see in the DDR tells us all we need to know about socialism."

[A Sovereign Womb]

The population of the DDR enjoyed total employment. I imagine the fact that there was always a steady job to be found contributes mightily to Ostalgie.

Of course, the situation was due in no small part to a quarter of their fellow citizens fleeing the country.

[sixdollarchampagne]

I'm not particularly well versed in the history of the GDR, but this film in particular has been criticized for its lack of historical correctness before.

I thought that film, about the Stasi and their policing of the population of the DDR, was one of the best films I have ever seen. I would be grateful for references or links to criticism of the film for any inaccuracies. It is hard to understand how the film could be very inaccurate, given the fact that the citizens of the DDR were surely one of the most spied-upon, if not the most spied-upon population in the world; I am pretty sure that Stasi penetration of the East German population, with a vast number of "unofficial collaborators" serving the state, set a record for spying on civilians.

[Jason]

The left is (relatively) strong in the former GDR, but so is nationalism. At the root of the success of both, is the failure to integrate the two states properly and smoothly. Where capitalism is failing to deliver, or is in crisis, the (relative) radicals get stronger. That's all you should conclude about former east germany, not that the GDR was better regardless of whether it is or not in some respects.

Actually, vast majorities in the whole soviet bloc preferred communism.

[cclark501]

How do rightists/capitalists explain this phenomenon which has carried into the 21st century if the socialist system is truly broken and repressive?


they don't explain it, they do what capitalist do best...lie!

[Conscript]

Actually, vast majorities in the whole soviet bloc preferred communism.

Nationalism is also strong there too, and tends to feed off the feelings of ostalgie.

Though I'm not aware of something like the march referendum in the warsaw pact states.

[Jason]

From what I saw on the movie "Goodbye Lenin" the GDR didn't seem that bad. But then again, that was just a movie. Of course, a cynic would say the main characters on the movie were heavily brainwashed, even the free-spirited main character (a young adult). For instance, when the mom is excited to see the Honecker and Gorbachev on tv, and the main character uses socialist slogans for motivation in asking a girl out.