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Die Neue Zeit
10th January 2013, 05:08
Excerpt from: http://links.org.au/node/3173



By Dick Nichols, Madrid

January 4, 2013 – Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal -- On the last day of the 10th federal convention of the Spain’s United Left (Izquierda Unida, IU), Juan Peña, young IU organisation secretary for the Castilian town of Valladolid, summed up his view of the impact of the indignado (15M) movement on the IU, one of the oldest broad left formations in Europe: “15M brought IU good news and bad news. The good news was that our programmatic proposals hit the mark, shared by the people who poured into the streets. The bad news was that the people thought that these proposals were new, their own.”

Ever since the enormous and exceptional upsurge of protest that began in Spain on May 15, 2011, the 30,000-strong IU has been wrestling with this contradiction—the gap between the millions of people, including many members and supporters of the sociali-democratic Spanish Socialist Workers Party (PSOE), who share its positions but who don’t regard the IU as their political voice.

It’s not that the broad left coalition hasn’t made gains during the social and political crisis. Support in opinion polls has more than doubled to around 13% and the IU and its Catalan sister party, the United and Alternative Left (EUiA), have enjoyed big increases in regional elections in 2012 in Andalusia, Asturias, Galicia and Catalonia.

However, such gains account for a small part of the more than 6 million voters who have deserted the PSOE over the past four years. The basic picture is still one of serious erosion of the two-party system of the PSOE and the ruling right-wing People’s Party (PP), but with no force yet emerging as the core of a radical left challenge to bipartisan capitalist politics.

How to transform the enormous upsurge of protest in the Spanish state into a political and social movement strong enough to take power out of the hands of the PP government of Mariano Rajoy was the overarching issue for the 959 convention delegates who met from December 14-16, 2012, in an outer suburb of Madrid. As the convention slogan said, “Transform: mobilisation into organisation, rebellion into alternative, alternative into power”.

Predictably, that meant the convention was a tame affair for the mainstream media. How dull was this! No faction fights, no personality clashes, only a handful of close votes—not much sustenance for the insatiable monster of raging abuse, rancid gossip and loud-mouthed moronic opinionising that is “coverage of politics” in most Spanish media.

How unlike, too, was it to the IU’s ninth federal convention, held six months after the coalition and its allies had been reduced to two seats in the 2008 elections for the national Spanish parliament. That convention had seen five different slates presented for the federal political committee, the organisation’s ruling body between conventions. Whether the IU even had a future was widely discussed at the time. In the following years leading IU figures deserted to the PSOE and to the environmental party Equo.

The ninth convention had even failed to elect a new federal coordinator to replace resigning coordinator Gaspar Llamazares. At the first federal political committee meeting afterwards, Cayo Lara, from the Communist Party of Spain (PCE), the IU’s largest affiliate, had become the new federal coordinator with just 55% of the vote.

The ninth federal convention had also begun the process of refounding the IU as an “anti-capitalist, federal and republican social and political movement as the axis of a new social and political convergence”, but now, four years later, with IU members participating in and often leading the huge waves of protest against austerity and attacks on labour rights, the mood of the organisation was transformed.

As a result of this shift and the IU’s electoral gains this convention was also in a position to ride through disputes that in a more sombre situation might have produced acrimonious conflict.

One of the tensest was the situation for IU in the Euskadi (the Basque Country), where its present and former local affiliates, respectively Esker Anitza (EA, Plural Left) and Esker Batua (EB, United Left), had run against each other in the October 2012 regional election, with neither winning a seat. Esker Batua is affiliated to the Open Left (IA), the IU-affiliated party founded earlier this year by Llamazares, and its election material featured photos of Llamazares and other leading IA members.

(Llamazares later denied that he had given permission to Esker Batua to use his photo, but said nothing at the time of the poll, leaving the impression that the IU’s two main personalities, Lara and Llamazares, were supporting different tickets in the Euskadi poll. Partly as a result, a number of previous sympathisers of IA broke with the current.)

Another potential source of conflict, that the IA might present its own slate for the federal political committee, was resolved at the last minute when that formation negotiated 20% representation on all IU leadership bodies.

According to Llamazares: “We believe that’s representative enough and we don’t have any further ambitions. Moreover, it’s not a question of percentages but of representative participation in IU as a whole, from top to bottom and bottom to top.”

The decisions of the convention, building on the support for its draft documents in the September meeting of the federal political committee, reflected this resolution of differences. Cayo Lara was re-elected unanimously as national coordinator after the presentation of only one slate for the federal political committee, the first time in 24 years. It represented all organised sensibilities within IU and won 85% support.

Previously, Lara’s balance sheet of work since the previous convention had won 91% support, the political document 97% support, the economic document 96% support and proposals for restructuring the IU and amending its statutes 90% support.

Near unanimous support greeted the “Declaration of Madrid”, a resolution summarising the IU’s view of Spanish and European politics and its tasks in the coming period, as well as specific resolutions, many from IU’s different federations, which correspond to Spain’s 17 “autonomous communities” (states, from the Australian point of view) and Ceuta and Melilla, its two enclaves in Morocco.

Main challenges

The outgoing IU leadership had outlined four challenges and basic goals in its “Call for Debate” for the convention: to popularise a concrete economic alternative to neoliberalism; to “organise the democratic rebellion of the people”; to overcome the two-party system by “making IU and its alliances a real alternative for power”; and “to make profound changes to the IU we know … in order to transform it into a powerful political force for the left and the majority of society”.

It stressed that unless this last challenge was met it would be impossible to meet the first three: the IU would continue to be seen by many in struggle as alien and even part of “the political class”, at best a lesser evil on election day. The section of the political document headed “Profoundly changing our organisation” called for an “internal revolution in IU”.

But how to meet that challenge? The concern with making the IU more hospitable for the new generation of activists was reflected in the huge number of amendments devoted to its statutes—more than 3200 of the 5500 total. Most were aimed at creating a less “institutional” IU: quicker to react and more organised in its support to social protest and resistance; providing greater opportunity for participation by sympathisers and activists in the social movements; and with greater transparency and accountability from public officeholders and elected officials.

However, some of the amendments would have transformed the IU into an assembly-based organisation, even questioning the very concept of membership and, in the words of political document drafting panel reporter José Manuel Alonso, “placing in doubt the need for IU itself”. That would have taken the IU a very long way from its first response to the rise of 15M—the 2011 “Social Call”, a consultative process to provide a space for input into the IU’s program for the November 2011 national elections.

Ranging between these poles, the convention debate centred on what interrelated changes were needed to the IU itself, to its relation to the social movements, and to its alliances with social and political forces outside its own borders—all essential in order to build towards a majority social and political bloc against neoliberal capitalism in the Spanish state.

A contribution from the IA said: “The ‘they don’t represent us’ [non nos representan, a 15M chant against the “political class”]… is a fundamental challenge for we left activists … our survival as a force for transformation is bound up with it … We should recognise ourselves in some of the criticisms of professionalised politics made from the social movements, and of which we are part. We are not outside or alien to what is being criticised and proposed.”

The IA’s proposed treatment was that all social collectives and individuals interested in a particular issue be invited to policy-formulation meetings, that draft policy documents based on that input be submitted to members for discussion, and that social networks be used and the IU web system rejigged as channels for proposals and feedback.

Pre-selection of candidates should be via primaries open to IU members and declared supporters or, in the case of the candidacies of alliances beyond the IU, through mechanisms agreed with the partners in the alliance.

In his blog for the left web daily Público, IU MP for Málaga Alberto Garzón, popular indignado and youngest deputy in the national parliament, tried for a precise diagnosis of the IU’s present condition. “IU is not a conventional political party, even if it suffers from many of their vices, but a political and social movement. That’s what its statutes say and that’s how I personally reckon its role in society should be understood …

“However, the organisation itself is structured internally with the rigidity and dynamics specific to a traditional party. And this state of affairs leads to a manifest inability to attract highly capable people who presently ‘travel’ outside the organisation. In this situation the ‘insiders’—namely, the people familiar with internal negotiation and the balance of forces among the different internal currents—usually end up prevailing over the ‘outsiders’—namely, all those people who are potentially members but don’t end up joining owing to the enormous barriers to entry.

“This is a problem that is separate from purely ideological confrontation but which once set hard within the organisation ends up blocking the dynamic needed to maintain the right balance between action in the streets and in the institutions.

“The result is that the organisation gets transformed into something much more conservative than what the struggle in the street and citizens in general are demanding. A disconnection from reality gets produced, along with a tendency toward political dependence on the institutions, which leads to other tools of struggle being formed alongside the organisation.

“That’s how we can understand that, despite clear ideological convergence, those who have carried out the most effective resistance against the neoliberal assault have been the social movements situated outside IU.”

A similar diagnosis was carried on the preconvention blog, “Going over the head of the regime”. In a statement that got wide support, Juan Peña, Eberhard Grosske (spokesperson of the IU council group in Palma, Mallorca) and Tánia Sànchez (MP in the Madrid regional parliament) outlined “ten messages that the Tenth Convention of IU must launch towards society”.

These included, “We are going to start building tomorrow’s society today”, “We are going to make a qualitative leap in social and political convergence”, “We are going to place the institutions at the disposal of the people” and “We are going to open our main decision-making to citizen participation”.

[...]

A joint proposal from the federations of Euskadi, Navarra and Valencia proposed that elected IU office holders receive the average wage of the electorates they represent, with the relevant IU body deciding on how to use the excess income. The rationale for the proposal cited Lenin to the effect that the abolition of the salary privileges of elected officials was one of the key questions of worker democracy, “perhaps the most important”. Sánchez proposed that the issue be discussed further within the IU—because the IU’s codes of income varied across the federations and were not widely known to all members and because “the vast majority” of IU elected officials abided by the relevant code.

A broad debate was needed to inform the membership of the actual situation and harmonise criteria among the federations, taking account of the cost of living in Spain’s different regions. The limit proposed to the plenary was based on the practice of IU Valencia and came from Marina Albiol, MP in the Valencian parliament. It stipulated a maximum salary for IU officeholders of between 2.5 and 3 times the minimum wage [of €645.30 a month, roughly $A820], with a limit on expenses of 1.5 times the minimum wage. Albiol said: “An office holder who earns €4000 or €5000 a month ‘does not represent us’…please don’t let this issue, once again, not be decided by convention.” Here was an issue that the convention felt strongly about, also being seen as a way of demarking the IU from other parliamentary parties. Albiol’s amendment was carried, by 282 to 152.

Geiseric
10th January 2013, 05:28
I like this, do they have a 40 step program like Syriza?

Futility Personified
10th January 2013, 14:01
Will it lead to socialism?

The Feral Underclass
11th January 2013, 00:11
Great, another leftist organisation to stagnate resistance. Yay.

Geiseric
11th January 2013, 00:22
Will it lead to socialism?

How is anybody supposed to know that? At least they're leftists getting off their asses, and participating in struggles, rather than discussing with an affinity group about what the next step for their imaginary "struggle," is to abolish capitalism.

The Feral Underclass
11th January 2013, 00:37
How is anybody supposed to know that? At least they're leftists getting off their asses, and participating in struggles, rather than discussing with an affinity group about what the next step for their imaginary "struggle," is to abolish capitalism.

What does "participating in a struggle" mean though? What's the substance of this platitude? You know, a lot of "leftists" keep banding around these platitudes, but when you inspect the substance of these slogans you soon realise the same old tactics and tired strategies are being employed.

So I'm interested to know what "participating in a struggle" actually means as far as you're concerned?

Thirsty Crow
11th January 2013, 00:42
How is anybody supposed to know that?
Easy:


The outgoing IU leadership had outlined four challenges and basic goals in its “Call for Debate” for the convention: to popularise a concrete economic alternative to neoliberalism; to “organise the democratic rebellion of the people”; to overcome the two-party system by “making IU and its alliances a real alternative for power”; and “to make profound changes to the IU we know … in order to transform it into a powerful political force for the left and the majority of society”.Seriously, you don't even have to do a lot of read-between-the-lines. Or maybe you wish to conclude that no one can know whether outright reformism can lead to socialism?

DDR
11th January 2013, 01:33
Will it lead to socialism?

No, as you can see here (http://www.insurgente.org/index.php/economia/item/1634-la-gran-mentira-del-gobierno-de-izquierdas-en-andaluc%C3%ADa) (in spanish, google translate works well thou)


Great, another leftist organisation to stagnate resistance. Yay.

It has been the same since 84, so there's nothing new here.


How is anybody supposed to know that? At least they're leftists getting off their asses, and participating in struggles, rather than discussing with an affinity group about what the next step for their imaginary "struggle," is to abolish capitalism.

Which struggles is IU participating? Except for Gordillo who else is doing something in IU? What are Valderas, (la)Cayo Lara, Llamazares, etc. doing?

Art Vandelay
11th January 2013, 01:34
I've never quite gotten the Syriza hype. I remember having some discussion with Q about it, but I really don't get all the love.

Die Neue Zeit
11th January 2013, 02:15
I've never quite gotten the Syriza hype. I remember having some discussion with Q about it, but I really don't get all the love.

They're becoming a political party and they are organizing meaningful social outreach work and grassroots political work alongside.

The Feral Underclass
11th January 2013, 10:12
they are organizing meaningful social outreach work and grassroots political work alongside.

Which means what?

Aurora
11th January 2013, 10:38
I've never quite gotten the Syriza hype. I remember having some discussion with Q about it, but I really don't get all the love.
The growth and popularity of SYRIZA is a sign that the masses are engaging in politics and are moving in a leftward direction towards the leftwing SYRIZA and away from Pasok and New Democracy, SYRIZA may not be revolutionaries but to the masses revolution is not on the agenda until all other options are exhausted, if SYRIZA enters the government following the next election they will be unable to solve the problems inherent to capitalism which will spur the masses to a more radical alternative.
Hopefully by that stage there will be a communist party read to take the struggle forwards.

Art Vandelay
11th January 2013, 19:04
The growth and popularity of SYRIZA is a sign that the masses are engaging in politics and are moving in a leftward direction towards the leftwing SYRIZA and away from Pasok and New Democracy, SYRIZA may not be revolutionaries but to the masses revolution is not on the agenda until all other options are exhausted, if SYRIZA enters the government following the next election they will be unable to solve the problems inherent to capitalism which will spur the masses to a more radical alternative.
Hopefully by that stage there will be a communist party read to take the struggle forwards.

I can understand this line of reasoning, however I don't see any communist party that is capable of pushing forth the struggle.

Geiseric
12th January 2013, 01:10
I can understand this line of reasoning, however I don't see any communist party that is capable of pushing forth the struggle.

As we saw with the bolsheviks and KPD that party will rise out of SYRIZA itself, out of its communist, class conscious left wing.

Grenzer
12th January 2013, 01:59
They're becoming a political party and they are organizing meaningful social outreach work and grassroots political work alongside.

Unfortunately, the vague and meaningless liberal phrase mongering you are using here doesn't amount to anything.

You are using liberal phraseology to deflect from the fact that you can't claim that they are a proletarian party, nor that they are based on a revolutionary(proletarian) program, which is what actual communists are interested in, not hollow platitudes like "social outreach". One could not feasibly claim they are moving in that direction either, even ignoring the fact that a left-liberal party moving to a revolutionary politics is literally historically unprecedented.

To describe your position as reformist would frankly be an improvement over what the reality actually is. Even the post-war Christian Democratic Union was to the left of these parties.

Geiseric
12th January 2013, 03:22
Unfortunately, the vague and meaningless liberal phrase mongering you are using here doesn't amount to anything.

You are using liberal phraseology to deflect from the fact that you can't claim that they are a proletarian party, nor that they are based on a revolutionary(proletarian) program, which is what actual communists are interested in, not hollow platitudes like "social outreach". One could not feasibly claim they are moving in that direction either, even ignoring the fact that a left-liberal party moving to a revolutionary politics is literally historically unprecedented.

To describe your position as reformist would frankly be an improvement over what the reality actually is. Even the post-war Christian Democratic Union was to the left of these parties.

Way to sound like the Sparts!

zimmerwald1915
12th January 2013, 06:19
Way to sound like the Sparts!
On the one hand we have a political critique. On the other we have childish namecalling. Who's sounding like the Sparts?

Die Neue Zeit
12th January 2013, 06:42
Unfortunately, the vague and meaningless liberal phrase mongering you are using here doesn't amount to anything.

So Marxist strategy is liberal, now? :lol:


You are using liberal phraseology to deflect from the fact that you can't claim that they are a proletarian party, nor that they are based on a revolutionary(proletarian) program, which is what actual communists are interested in, not hollow platitudes like "social outreach".

My recent posts on "Organize!" in "Educate! Agitate! Organize!" are more defensive because of reductionist "criticisms" of the party-movement model.

The excuse of different circumstances (i.e., can't adapt something to today) is a poor excuse when the stage is set.


One could not feasibly claim they are moving in that direction either, even ignoring the fact that a left-liberal party moving to a revolutionary politics is literally historically unprecedented.

How exactly is their program "left-liberal"?


Even the post-war Christian Democratic Union was to the left of these parties.

Did they nationalize the whole banking system? Didn't think so, and that's just an example.

Lucretia
12th January 2013, 09:33
The growth and popularity of SYRIZA is a sign that the masses are engaging in politics and are moving in a leftward direction towards the leftwing SYRIZA and away from Pasok and New Democracy, SYRIZA may not be revolutionaries but to the masses revolution is not on the agenda until all other options are exhausted, if SYRIZA enters the government following the next election they will be unable to solve the problems inherent to capitalism which will spur the masses to a more radical alternative.
Hopefully by that stage there will be a communist party read to take the struggle forwards.

Or they will be unable to solve the problems, and the "masses" will move rightward, having missed an opportunity to get behind a serious revolutionary group.

Q
12th January 2013, 09:44
Or they will be unable to solve the problems, and the "masses" will move rightward, having missed an opportunity to get behind a serious revolutionary group.

What r-r-r-revolutionary group would that be?

Delenda Carthago
12th January 2013, 12:22
They're becoming a political party and they are organizing meaningful social outreach work and grassroots political work alongside.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


Jesus Cristo!!! If only you were in Greece in the last 5 days with all that "anti squat" situation.






These are the true guys in Spain yo!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_People_of_Spain

Aurora
12th January 2013, 12:44
I can understand this line of reasoning, however I don't see any communist party that is capable of pushing forth the struggle.
Well that's the crux of the matter, i probably don't know enough about the different groups but personally i don't think the character of any group has yet been decided, i suspect we'll begin to see who can lead the way forward by the positions they take if SYRIZA enter the government and it'll be decided if workers start creating their own organs of rule.

Or they will be unable to solve the problems, and the "masses" will move rightward, having missed an opportunity to get behind a serious revolutionary group.
Absolutely, if the communists fail then it's very likely that there will be movement to the already established radical petty-bourgeois alternative, the Golden Dawn. A chilling thought.

DDR
12th January 2013, 13:21
These are the true guys in Spain yo!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_People_of_Spain

No they are not, since their last congress they have gone into a road of revisionism, centrism, and stupid electoralism.

Delenda Carthago
12th January 2013, 13:53
No they are not, since their last congress they have gone into a road of revisionism, centrism, and stupid electoralism.
Elaborate please.

The Feral Underclass
12th January 2013, 14:02
Die Neue Zeit, you appear to keep ignoring me. Is it because you can't speak in anything other than platitudes?

DDR
12th January 2013, 14:53
Elaborate please.

Yes of course. The PCPE made a communique (http://rsamadrid.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/%C2%BFpor-que-el-pcpe-es-una-mierda-revisionista/) in solidarity with the PCI (marxist) calling the Naxas Terrorist. They only solidarice with their "prisoners" but refuse to do the same with real political prisoners, like GRAPOs, PCE(r), SRI, anarch, Batasuna and ETA people, etc. They changed their position in the national question in Spain, from defending the right to self-determination to all peoples in spain (hence the name) to defend it only for the "Historical Nations" (Catalunya, EH and Galiza). They concurr to every single election for the sake of concurring, having for the last always the same damned 25k votes. And I could continue, but I think for now it's enough.

Delenda Carthago
12th January 2013, 15:17
Yes of course. The PCPE made a communique (http://rsamadrid.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/%C2%BFpor-que-el-pcpe-es-una-mierda-revisionista/) in solidarity with the PCI (marxist) calling the Naxas Terrorist. They only solidarice with their "prisoners" but refuse to do the same with real political prisoners, like GRAPOs, PCE(r), SRI, anarch, Batasuna and ETA people, etc. They changed their position in the national question in Spain, from defending the right to self-determination to all peoples in spain (hence the name) to defend it only for the "Historical Nations" (Catalunya, EH and Galiza). They concurr to every single election for the sake of concurring, having for the last always the same damned 25k votes. And I could continue, but I think for now it's enough.

I dont know the Naxas, but in gerenal i guess there are more important issues than the relationship with armed(?) groups, specially with anarchists or ETA etc.

The thing about the national question of Spain for example is a serious issue, but since I dont know the frame, I wont take a stance.

Other important issues are the relation with the working class, the level of organize, the stance on "left(capitalist) governments" and the participation on them, the analyses on the nature of the crisis, the stance towards EU and NATO(and also the other imperialist poles like BRICS) and others.


also, check this out.
http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-12-17-marinoy/

DDR
12th January 2013, 15:56
Other important issues are the relation with the working class, the level of organize, the stance on "left(capitalist) governments" and the participation on them, the analyses on the nature of the crisis, the stance towards EU and NATO(and also the other imperialist poles like BRICS) and others.


also, check this out.
http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-12-17-marinoy/

That speech is more of the same stuff lots of theory but no practice. Their relationship with the masses is 0, while in Andalusia there has been expropiations of lands and buildings for the unemployed, while the PCPE has given "English courses for the working class (http://www.diarioinformacion.com/vega-baja/2013/01/08/pcpe-imparte-ingles-clase-obrera/1331553.html)". Their leven of organisation is none, politically they have lost lots of militants and cadres to the PCOE while taking into them cadres of youth sections of the reformist PCE in Asturies and Madrid, and the merging with a really weird prochinese sect Union Proletaria. In the union level they still bet for wirking in the reactoionary unions (CCOO & UGT) specially CCOO with their CUOs (a "cross-union platform" in wich everybody is from CCOO...) while the nationalist (SAT, LAB, CIG, etc.) and the anarcho-syndicalist (CNT and CGT) are joining forces. Their stance in in "left capitalist goverment" ist at best hypocrital, you cannot criticise it while you concurr to elections for the sake of it, what try to acomplish with it the PCPE? Because I hear their theoretical work but no I cannot see their practical work. Their analysis of both the economic crisis and the EU, is correct, in the sense that one can agree with it, but in the case of imperialism they have been very silent about Lybia and Syria.

Lucretia
12th January 2013, 18:49
What r-r-r-revolutionary group would that be?

You miss the point entirely. It's the group that would exist if revolutionists weren't busy burying their politics and mucking about in these "broad left" formations that won't go anywhere.

Die Neue Zeit
12th January 2013, 19:08
Which means what?

Sorry for the delay TAT, but since you left the first time my political views have expanded. It's the combination of what you anarchists would call "solidarity networks" (legal services to protect indebted people from losing their homes, medical social centers, etc.) and the full scope of politics (not just showing up at the ballot box):

Real Parties as Real Movements and Vice Versa (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=1217)

Small-r revolutionary Marxists call this the "Alternative Culture."


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Jesus Cristo!!! If only you were in Greece in the last 5 days with all that "anti squat" situation.

Would you mind elaborating? :confused:

FSL
13th January 2013, 21:40
Yes of course. The PCPE made a communique (http://rsamadrid.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/%C2%BFpor-que-el-pcpe-es-una-mierda-revisionista/) in solidarity with the PCI (marxist) calling the Naxas Terrorist. They only solidarice with their "prisoners" but refuse to do the same with real political prisoners, like GRAPOs, PCE(r), SRI, anarch, Batasuna and ETA people, etc. They changed their position in the national question in Spain, from defending the right to self-determination to all peoples in spain (hence the name) to defend it only for the "Historical Nations" (Catalunya, EH and Galiza). They concurr to every single election for the sake of concurring, having for the last always the same damned 25k votes. And I could continue, but I think for now it's enough.

Maoism isn't the only "antirevisionist" trend and some would argue that it is not sufficiently antirevisionist itself. The events in Nepal point to that fact.
Elections are a tool, it's a period when more people talk about politics, you should be using that to get your message across. If you can't immediately succeed, that's no reason to stop.
Participation in elections and even in parliament is no revisionism, in fact both were utilized by many revolutionary parties, the bolshevicks being the most obvious one.

Tim Cornelis
13th January 2013, 21:45
The PCPE seems to support Hugo Chavez calling him a Great Patriot. Patriotism and supporting Chavez doesn't sound too revolutionary or communist.

DDR
13th January 2013, 22:21
Maoism isn't the only "antirevisionist" trend and some would argue that it is not sufficiently antirevisionist itself. The events in Nepal point to that fact.
Elections are a tool, it's a period when more people talk about politics, you should be using that to get your message across. If you can't immediately succeed, that's no reason to stop.
Participation in elections and even in parliament is no revisionism, in fact both were utilized by many revolutionary parties, the bolshevicks being the most obvious one.

In Spain there's a parties law, that banns from elections parties that doesn't condemn "terrorism" (that only means ETA's, GRAPO's and FRAP's mainly, not state terrorism nor the horrors of the nazis and fash), so boicotting them when you aren't going to get anything is a good solidarity sing.

Also we have many political prisoners in the state (we have the only western european country that has a General Secretary of a Communist Party in jail since Dimitrov's time, Manuel Pérez Martínez, AKA Camarada Arenas), which the PCPE doesn't solidarice with, in order to avoid beeing illegalized by said law, which is a little bit coward and oportunistic. They'll screeam their lungs out when some of his party is fined for spray pinting or something, even when some of it's youth members where charged with terrorism they didn't denounced the other cases.

To bee in the elections you have to gathern the required 35,000 signatures in twenty days (I don't remember I don't remember if the number was by province of by community, sorry) which also burns alot and needs a lot of work done. Last elections we where trying to make an act about the reforms in the health care system with them, and the PCPE replied thath they were too busy with election stuff to care about it.

But make no mistake, I see fit to participate in elections if it is posible to achieve power, or atleast beeing a serious thread. I campaing and supported for Iniciativa Internacionalista - La Solidaridad entre los Pueblos in the last european parlamentary elections, because it was an anticapitalist candidature, it had chances to win seats (I bet it did, those years elections results were really weird, some people belive the results were somehow cooked, it's not notmal that traditionaly abertzale villages vote in masse for nazis, and so forth...) and it was made so the Basque Abertzale Left coud scape the paries law. As you can see there's huge diference between this and the PCPE strategy.

Delenda Carthago
14th January 2013, 00:08
Sorry for the delay TAT, but since you left the first time my political views have expanded. It's the combination of what you anarchists would call "solidarity networks" (legal services to protect indebted people from losing their homes, medical social centers, etc.) and the full scope of politics (not just showing up at the ballot box):

Real Parties as Real Movements and Vice Versa (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=1217)

Small-r revolutionary Marxists call this the "Alternative Culture."



Would you mind elaborating? :confused:

Tsipras, in order to avoid any connection with Villa, said that they are "nikokirei", which is the conservative petit bourgeois that minds its own house. Its so fucked up, its one of these political statements that just stick forever. Tsipras and SYRIZA are now "nikokirei".:lol:

Geiseric
14th January 2013, 02:05
I'd want to see the Unitada Izquierda's program before making any more general statements, as i'd assume most people here would want.

DDR
14th January 2013, 11:31
I'd want to see the Unitada Izquierda's program before making any more general statements, as i'd assume most people here would want.

Then, here you go: http://izquierda-unida.es/node/9429 That's their electoral program for last general elections.

DDR
14th January 2013, 15:20
Bildu/Amaiur are more progessive and democratic than IU.

Futility Personified
14th January 2013, 23:27
How is anybody supposed to know that? At least they're leftists getting off their asses, and participating in struggles, rather than discussing with an affinity group about what the next step for their imaginary "struggle," is to abolish capitalism.

I was merely posing a question to put across what I would hope a lot of people are thinking. Yes, being an armchair lefty is not particularly helpful, it's more useful to participate in groups to get shit done, but if the groups aims are bourgeois then what is the point? Reformism in the guise of radicalism is particularly insidious because it is a waste of everyone's time Yes, wringing concessions from the capitalist state improves living standards, but if we're just going to go through the same motions of futility that all the social democratic parties have done for the last hundred years, we are not really being true to ourselves, are we?

It sounds a bit divisive, but if you do not get a yes from that question from the off, then, haha, it is revolutionary in the sense that the same old wheel keeps turning, with nothing that as socialists, anarchists or communists we should desire being truly accomplished.

TheEmancipator
20th January 2013, 11:18
Will they support Esquerra Republicana in Catalonia?

Would they declare Spain a Republic and restore the Republican flag and anthem?

DDR
20th January 2013, 14:33
Will they support Esquerra Republicana in Catalonia?

In wich way do you mean?

If you're taking about goverment stuff and so on, ICV (IU in Catalonia) was part of the famous tripartit, a coalition goverment in Catalonia between 2003-2006, formed by ICV, ERC and PSC (PSOE in Catalonia). But after last years election ERC and CiU (a conservative catalonian coalition of two parties Convergencia Democratica and Union Democratica) are the ones forming the coalition goverment. If you're speaking about the independentist declaration and the referendum porposed by CiU and endorsed by ERC then I must tell you that IU holds a federalist point of view therefore they aren't goping to give full support to the Catalonian declaration of independence.


Would they declare Spain a Republic and restore the Republican flag and anthem?

They are republicans by folklore, I know they do lots of work (its bases mainly) in the field of historical memory (rememberance of the republic and the peoples who fight and died for it in the SCW) but they don't make of it one of the main issues, is just there. Even after the recent scandals of the monarchy, mainly the Urdangarin Case (King's son in law in league with Balearic and Valencian conservatives politicians evede millions of undeclared money made in a obscure way) and the Botswana Elephant Killing Trip (The King in the middle a economic crisis and 6 million unemployed spends lots of money to go to Botswana to hunt elephants with his German lover and brokes his own hip), IU's critics have been more than lukewarm.

DDR
20th January 2013, 15:05
I'm going to double post because I just saw this, which ilustrates very well IU's position abou monarchy:

Ángel Pérez, IU's speaker in Madrid: "The only one who is doing something about economy is the King" (http://insurgente.org/index.php/template/politica/item/3481-%C3%A1ngel-p%C3%A9rez-portavoz-de-iu-en-madrid-el-%C3%BAnico-que-est%C3%A1-haciendo-algo-por-la-econom%C3%ADa-es-el-rey)

Geiseric
20th January 2013, 18:32
I was merely posing a question to put across what I would hope a lot of people are thinking. Yes, being an armchair lefty is not particularly helpful, it's more useful to participate in groups to get shit done, but if the groups aims are bourgeois then what is the point? Reformism in the guise of radicalism is particularly insidious because it is a waste of everyone's time Yes, wringing concessions from the capitalist state improves living standards, but if we're just going to go through the same motions of futility that all the social democratic parties have done for the last hundred years, we are not really being true to ourselves, are we?

It sounds a bit divisive, but if you do not get a yes from that question from the off, then, haha, it is revolutionary in the sense that the same old wheel keeps turning, with nothing that as socialists, anarchists or communists we should desire being truly accomplished.

Way to be ultra left, and to not have a scientific view on class consciousness.

TheEmancipator
21st January 2013, 17:36
In wich way do you mean?

If you're taking about goverment stuff and so on, ICV (IU in Catalonia) was part of the famous tripartit, a coalition goverment in Catalonia between 2003-2006, formed by ICV, ERC and PSC (PSOE in Catalonia). But after last years election ERC and CiU (a conservative catalonian coalition of two parties Convergencia Democratica and Union Democratica) are the ones forming the coalition goverment. If you're speaking about the independentist declaration and the referendum porposed by CiU and endorsed by ERC then I must tell you that IU holds a federalist point of view therefore they aren't goping to give full support to the Catalonian declaration of independence.



They are republicans by folklore, I know they do lots of work (its bases mainly) in the field of historical memory (rememberance of the republic and the peoples who fight and died for it in the SCW) but they don't make of it one of the main issues, is just there. Even after the recent scandals of the monarchy, mainly the Urdangarin Case (King's son in law in league with Balearic and Valencian conservatives politicians evede millions of undeclared money made in a obscure way) and the Botswana Elephant Killing Trip (The King in the middle a economic crisis and 6 million unemployed spends lots of money to go to Botswana to hunt elephants with his German lover and brokes his own hip), IU's critics have been more than lukewarm.


I'm going to double post because I just saw this, which ilustrates very well IU's position abou monarchy:

Linky[/URL]


Then I'm severely disapointed. The monarchist flag is a symbol of Nationalist Spain and insult for those who died in the 1930s. Also, the entire concept of monarchy is simply not leftist. Especially when the monarchy is corrupt.

I understand the federalist viewpoint though, but try convincing Catalans that they should stick by Spain when you support monarchs and play The March of the Real as your national anthem. The whole point of a tranistion from monarchist Spain to Republican Spain is that it would permit con-federalism and peace between the various communities in Spain instead of the dickwaving competition currently in place.