If Holland had a Yezhovshchina, would Anne Frank had survived?

[Unclebananahead]

In a discussion a friend of mine had with a couple of Stalinists regarding the Great Purges (1936–1938), one of them pulled out the claim that:

"in countries like France, Holland, and most of Eastern Europe there were thousands of domestic fascists willing to help the Nazis do their genocidal work. If Holland had a Yezhovshchina, Anne Frank might have survived"

also providing a hypothetical example in North America...

"Now, what if Canada somehow became Nazi and powerful and invaded the USA, swearing to kill every Black person? What if thousands of American racists were poised to help them? What would you do? Ask nice? Turns out there is no policy alternative that doesn't lead to a big pile of bodies. I'd repress the racists and let history judge me."

and importantly...

"Well, I don't know about putting words like "vast" in scare quotes....Was the Dutch conspiracy "vast?" It was big enough to take power and hand over 80% of the Jewish folks in the Netherlands."

This person is claiming that there was an organized conspiracy of Dutch Nazi sympathizers which were large and powerful enough to, "take power." My understanding is that during WWII, there were those who would for one reason or another, collaborate with the forces of German occupation. But the claim here is that action was taken by Nazi sympathizing conspirators prior to the German invasion, to take power, and then, "hand over 80% of the Jewish folks in the Netherlands." My question is, is there any truth to this? Is it just a convenient fiction invented to exonerate hero/fighter/revolutionary/leader Comrade Stalin?

[The Cheshire Cat]

Well, I am from the Netherlands and I never heard of such a thing, and I don't believe there was that much support for the nazi's here. There were some small insignificant fascist parties in the early 30's, but they all seem to either have been disbanded around '34, and others have merged in the NSB, which became the main fascist party in the Netherlands after the Germans annexed us. Another fascist party, Black Front, was forbidden by the nazi invaders.

But nothing seems to point towards any nazi-sympathizing actions (altough this is a rather vague term). All I know of is some sort of conspiracy theory, that our prince at that time was a fascist sympathizer. He was from Germany, he had Die Fahne Hoch (fascist song) played at his wedding, and he is said to have given vital information about the resistance and Dutch and English armies to the Germans or something. But it is just a theory and it seems complete rubbish to me. The royals never openly expressed symptathy towards the nazi's.

After the invasion, there were about 22 000 Dutch who joined the SS as volunteers, but there was also a lot of resistance all across the country. And there was certainly no mass support for the nazi's or anything.

About 75 % of the jews in the Netherlands were killed, but many jews were hidden by the other population in shacks, basements, etc. to prevent them from being killed. But many got ratted out. I don't know why so many were ratted out, maybe it was because our resistance was fairly amateuristic and it was easy for spies to infiltrate. I don't know, I do not know much about the Netherlands in this period of time.

But according to my knowledge, this theory is complete fiction, and nothing seems to indicate that the nazi's had much support here.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Also, the first anti-Jewist measures are from 1940, after the German invasion. If there were large nazi sentiments before that time, jews would have been terrorized earlier.

[Q]

It is true that, relatively speaking, Dutch Jews were amongst the highest that were exterminated. But this has little to do with a comparitatively higher collaborators rate. It had more to do with an overzealous Dutch bureaucracy that pretty much laid out all the work for the Germans to seize on when they invaded.

[The Cheshire Cat]

It is true that, relatively speaking, Dutch Jews were amongst the highest that were exterminated. But this has little to do with a comparitatively higher collaborators rate. It had more to do with an overzealous Dutch bureaucracy that pretty much laid out all the work for the Germans to seize on when they invaded.

Indeed, that is what I forgot. Our bureaucracy had everybody registered. There were many lists of the people where their religion was indicated, or who there parents were. The Germans only had to go through the files of the local authorities and they could find names and adresses of pretty much every jew. That is probably the main reason why a relative high amount of jews were killed here.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Personally I think it was much more a case of lack of action that can be blamed. There wasn't much significant pro-Nazi action but there was also not significant action against the Nazis.
Like Q said, everything was bureaucratically laid out for them. The government fled and the the Nazis easily got control of the police.

I have a few books on my reading list that are about the Netherlands during the second world war, so I'll look if there is something I can find about your claims.

[Sasha]

yeah, unintended and reluctant/keep my own head low "collaboration" was a way bigger factor than the voluntarily kind. before the war jews and all other minority groups where already meticulously filed. when the nazi's came in they only had to pull out all the jew, communist (big overlap there), jehova, homosexual and gypsie files. And most cops, census and railroad personnel that proofed so useful to the nazi's really just felt they kept doing their jobs (even when it let to mindbogglingly vulgar things as the national railroads sending bills after the war to holocaust survivors and the family of ppl killed for their transport to the camps).

on the other hand the dutch cultivated this delusion that about everyone was in the resistance, this is far for true either. the vast majority collaborated, but most cant be really faulted for it imho and there was next to the active resistance a lot of passive resistance which is one of the reasons we never got a really hand in glove collaborating domestic government like france.
also dont forget that the queen was married to a fascist NSDAP member prince from germany (who later became "head" of the official resistance) it took some time before the non-communist/jewish resistance took off.

the bureaucracy luckily also lead in a very few instances to good stuff, because my jewish, communist family fought in spain during the civil war they lost their citizenships and where purged of all official files just before the invasion, which made it very easy for them to disappear into the resistance, even when caught they where mostly still treated as political prisoners and not jews, for some that saved their lives.

[hetz]

No, she would have been found in the first week of hiding ( neighbour reported to the NKVD ), sent to a GULAG and her diary burned. And she'd be airbrushed out of school photos.

What a ridiculous thread.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

the bureaucracy luckily also lead in a very few instances to good stuff, because my jewish, communist family fought in spain during the civil war they lost their citizenships and where purged of all official files just before the invasion, which made it very easy for them to disappear into the resistance, even when caught they where mostly still treated as political prisoners and not jews, for some that saved their lives.

I know you don't mean it too seriously, but how does that work out? If the bureaucracy didn't exist in the first place there wouldn't have been lists. Your family got lucky, but if there was no bureaucracy it would've been easier for most people to disappear.

[Sasha]

I know you don't mean it too seriously, but how does that work out? If the bureaucracy didn't exist in the fiNorst place there wouldn't have been lists. Your family got lucky, but if there was no bureaucracy it would've been easier for most people to disappear.

no joke, the Germans relied on the "bevolkingsregister" as proof that someone was jewish, as "statenlozen" my grandfathers brothers indexcards where physically removed from the register. By the time the Germans got their secret police files they where already dissapeared in the underground and they where considerd resistance fighters and not merely Jews....