Un-communist ideas by a member of this forum?

[Glaurung]

I chat regularly on IRC with a guy who posts on this forum under the name of Aurorus Ruber, and on ##marxism as A_Ruber. Lately he's been claiming that leftists and the ANC support the relocation of white South Africans (he calls them all "Afrikaners") to Europe. In his own words:


<@Red_Dawn> Nelson Mandela spent the better part of his career fighting the system erected by the Afrikaners.
<Smaug> but did he ever say that Afrikaners should be kicked out of SA, or maybe even killed?
<@Red_Dawn> I dunno, he presumably considered them too firmly entrenched to get rid of, but that doesn't mean he felt they had any right to be there.
<Smaug> did he ever say anything to that effect?
<@Red_Dawn> I dunno, but it seems almost certain he would have felt that way. Why would he have wanted an oppressive people staying in his country after all the trouble they had caused him?


<@Red_Dawn> Personally, I don't think expelling the whites from South Africa would be all that onerous anyway. They don't even like Africa for the most part and they certainly don't identify with it culturally. Wouldn't they be way happier in their homelands of the UK and the Netherlands, developed countries whose cultures they share?

In addition, he says that "true leftists" would never eat meat or listen to Die Antwoord; in the latter case he believes that he would be expelled from leftism if people found out that he had seen a music video from that group:


<@Red_Dawn> If only Ulan hadn't tricked me into watching that awful music video without realizing what it was.
<CUM_quesa> what video?
<@Red_Dawn> Give me a sec
<@Red_Dawn> [a youtube link, which I cannot put up because I do not have enough posts]
<@Red_Dawn> Nightmare fuel
<CUM_quesa> yeah that's kinda creepy
<Smaug> what is Die Antwoord?
<@Red_Dawn> An afrikaner band
<Smaug> and?
<@Red_Dawn> I had the misfortune of sitting through the whole thing without realizing it.
<Smaug> why was it misfortunate?
<@Red_Dawn> Because it sullied my mind with images and sounds that I ought to avoid.

These are just a few things from off the top of my head. If you wish to learn more about this person's thinking you can search for "<@Red_Dawn>" on pastebin. So, what do you guys think? For years he's insisted that these beliefs of his are orthodox with the left, and that you guys would agree with him if he ever posted about it. Is this true?

[Blake's Baby]

Obviously, on the unsupported word of someone we've never heard heard of, we must throw someone we've also never heard of out of The International Conspiracy of All Leftists.

[hetz]

Cool story

[Jason]

You gotta remember the Afrikaners started this chain of hate by oppressing the majority population (for centuries).

No doubt, I'm sure there are black SA who want to kill all whites, that's unforunate. A lot of times these so called "liberation struggles" can be just as racist as Nazi ones (and that's wrong).

But all in all, I think this is some crackpot fantasy of the right similar to thier "Jewish Media Control" fixation.

[Glaurung]

I don't expect torches and pitchforms, just a confirmation or denial that that is what "the left" believes. I know it sounds stupid, but Aurorus Ruber has been saying that this is so for years and I thought that it would be good to air things out here.

[l'Enfermé]

Maybe you should have PMd this to an Admin.

Edit: nevermind, re-read your post, for some reason at first I thought you were accusing this member of being "un-communist" and that he should be restricted. Don't know why I thought so.

Neither "leftists" nor the ANC want to expel whites from South Africa back to Europe. Most "leftists" eat loads of meat. I don't think anyone outside of South Africa even heard of Die Antwoord around here. If he(the person in the OP) were to say such things on RevLeft, no one would take him seriously.

[PigmerikanMao]

I don't think anyone outside of South Africa even heard of Die Antwoord around here.

It's actually funny that I have a friend that loves them. From what I understand, the band members actually associate with a SA subculture of being "classy" even though you don't have much money/aren't rich. While most of their music is hardly politically scathing or serving to raise class awareness, from what interviews my roommate has made me read, I've gotten the impression that they identify as leftists and have tremendous pride in their African heritage- even if they are white.

[Fruit of Ulysses]

theyre a fucking great band, not rightist in any way, the Zef culture they identify with (Zef meaning "kitsch") originally referred to a sort of "south african white trash" that ironically incorporates kitsch upper class elements the way trailer park people in the USA have pink flamingos on their lawn cuz they think it looks suburban and end up looking gaudily foolish. Zef is intentionally ironic with this and has evolved to identify with hip-hop/rave music abroad

[Luís Henrique]

I don't expect torches and pitchforms, just a confirmation or denial that that is what "the left" believes.

Much as l'Enfermé says. The idea that Nelson Mandela wanted the Afrikaners expelled is starkly contradicted by his attitudes both in opposition and in government. If he did believe in that, I don't think he would have the support of most leftists (the idea that people somehow have a "homeland" in places where they probably never set their feet upon, indeed, seems to me quite right-wingish). Some leftists are vegetarian, and some vegetarians are leftists, but there is no logical connection between the two things; you can eat meat and be a leftist, and carefully avoid any food or dress of animal origin and be politically in the far-right. And while most leftists would have absolutely no problem with people being vegetarian or otherwise, they would tend to disagree with anyone saying that eating, or not eating, meat is a requirement for having leftist credentials. As for Die Antwoord ("The Answer", I guess?), I have never heard them nor read their lyrics. But unless the lyrics are overtly racist or reactionary, or they engage in extra-musical behaviour somehow linked to the right, I don't think anyone in the left would have a political problem with them, much less with people who merely listen and like them. If I should guess, I would suppose that if their lyrics aren't openly political (or deal with subjects that selectively annoy the right, such as homosexuality or abortion), the proportion of leftists, centrists, apolitical people, and right-wingers among their fans are roughly the same as in the South African population in general (and that the proportion of people who worship/hate/are completely indifferent to them is similar among South African leftists and South Africans in general).

So, if Red Dawn actually spouses these views, he is quite mistaken.

Or he could be making some kind of elaborate prank, who knows.

Luís Henrique

[Glaurung]

Thank you all for your replies. Since this thread went up Aurorus Ruber/Red Dawn has backtracked on almost every claim about leftists that he's made over the years, including the stuff about diet, permissible music, and nationalism, so even though he doesn't plan on replying to this thread (see spoiler), it has been helpful.

<@Red_Dawn> No, I don't plan on addressing the thread. As far as the poster Aurorus Ruber is concerned, he has no idea that the thread even exists or that anyone is working against him? Why would he validate these accusations by stumbling onto the thread and frantically denying them? If he's innocent of the charges, he has no reason to think that a thread titled "uncommunist ideas" refers to him or that anyone
<@Red_Dawn> would attempt to sully his good name.
<Smaug> okay, I'm going to post what you just said in the thread
<Smaug> also I will PM that account so that there is proof that "Ruber" is aware of it
<@Red_Dawn> Don't you dare
<Smaug> I dare.

[Glaurung]

Perhaps it isn't over. Ruber has been talking about "leftist music" again:


<@Red_Dawn> It seems most left wing music out there is either punk or rap, genres which don't particularly appeal to me in their general emotional vibe. I find that I tend to prefer "sweet" music like classical, jazz, or synthpop over angry music like punk and rap.
<@Red_Dawn> So it seems the problem is that there is a fair amount of left wing music out there, it's just that my tastes aren't particularly compatable with it.
<CUM_quesa> Red_Dawn the ideology of your musicians isn't actually important
<CUM_quesa> to anyone
<CUM_quesa> so if you can't find music you feel is okay to listen to, that's a problem with your bad and worthless political standards
<CUM_quesa> and I have no sympathy
<@Red_Dawn> It is important if I don't want to piss off my comrades.
<@Red_Dawn> Obviously the other leftists don't want me listening to music that promotes right wing or fundamentalist views, etc.

[khad]

Communism is not a lifestyle. Who speaks for it? Not I, and certainly not some self-proclaimed guru on IRC. Perhaps people will stop caring about these debates if we stop giving these narcissists the attention they crave.

[Thug Lessons]

Holy crap y'all. Looks like Nuber is at it again. If you thought calling white South Africans "Afrikaners" wasn't bad enough, get a load of this:


<@Red_Dawn> Superman could totally beat Goku if it came down to it.
<@Red_Dawn> I'm a stupid moron with an ugly face and big butt and my butt smells and I like to kiss my own butt.
<Smaug> I shall alert the forums
<@Red_Dawn> Hitler did nothing wrong.

Truly chilling.

[#FF0000]

Perhaps it isn't over. Ruber has been talking about "leftist music" again:

hahahah oh god who is this guy

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

in any case, chat logs can't be used as evidence for anything on this board..

[Luís Henrique]

<@Red_Dawn> It seems most left wing music out there is either punk or rap, genres which don't particularly appeal to me in their general emotional vibe. I find that I tend to prefer "sweet" music like classical, jazz, or synthpop over angry music like punk and rap.
<@Red_Dawn> So it seems the problem is that there is a fair amount of left wing music out there, it's just that my tastes aren't particularly compatable with it.
<CUM_quesa> Red_Dawn the ideology of your musicians isn't actually important
<CUM_quesa> to anyone
<CUM_quesa> so if you can't find music you feel is okay to listen to, that's a problem with your bad and worthless political standards
<CUM_quesa> and I have no sympathy
<@Red_Dawn> It is important if I don't want to piss off my comrades.
<@Red_Dawn> Obviously the other leftists don't want me listening to music that promotes right wing or fundamentalist views, etc.

I have been a communist for more time than Red Dawn has been a human being, and I hate rap and love classical and jazz, and won't take anyone questioning my life long commitment to communism and revolution because of my musical tastes.

What an arsehole.

Luís Henrique

[Ravachol]

>he believes that he would be expelled from leftism
>would be expelled from leftism
>expelled from leftism

ಠ_ಠ

[l'Enfermé]

Ravachol, the leftist tribunal has made an important decision, you are suspended for 10 days from leftism for that "ಠ_ಠ" thing

[Conscript]

synthpop

Lol

There's a good reason leftism has a presence in hip hop and punk, both are products of people marginalized by capitalism. Punk is just plain working class and hip hop used to tell a lot of stories about life with national oppression and poverty. Nothing to be sweet about.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Punk is just plain working class

Erm . . . I'm pretty sure punk is contested ground at best. Honestly, the vast majority of punks I know are the children of state functionaries, paper-pushers, small-time managers, etc. ("hangers on" to the bourgeoisie). I certainly know working class punks, and they certainly outnumber rich punks (though maybe that's just an inevitability of capitalist demographics), but there's certainly nothing inherently working class about it.

[Ravachol]

Erm . . . I'm pretty sure punk is contested ground at best. Honestly, the vast majority of punks I know are the children of state functionaries, paper-pushers, small-time managers, etc. ("hangers on" to the bourgeoisie). I certainly know working class punks, and they certainly outnumber rich punks (though maybe that's just an inevitability of capitalist demographics), but there's certainly nothing inherently working class about it.

Yeah and don't get me started on most 'skinheads' who are usually middle class kids from the suburbs who decided to shave their heads at the age of 15, drink tons of lager and act like its England in the '80s while grunting about how 'working class they are, innit ey oi?' :rolleyes:

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Yeah and don't get me started on most 'skinheads' who are usually middle class kids from the suburbs who decided to shave their heads at the age of 15, drink tons of lager and act like its England in the '80s while grunting about how 'working class they are, innit ey oi?' :rolleyes:

Augh. Speaking as some one who has learned to turn off their backwater accent to avoid flak, affected accents are the worst.

[Conscript]

Erm . . . I'm pretty sure punk is contested ground at best. Honestly, the vast majority of punks I know are the children of state functionaries, paper-pushers, small-time managers, etc. ("hangers on" to the bourgeoisie). I certainly know working class punks, and they certainly outnumber rich punks (though maybe that's just an inevitability of capitalist demographics), but there's certainly nothing inherently working class about it.

Contested politically? Yes.

Working class? At least it used to be according to the stories I heard and a few posts I've read on other forums. That's my impression anyway.

[black magick hustla]

idk, from all the stuff i've read, it seemed "punk" was a pretty mixed bag. this contrasted with "hippies" that seemed to be mostly sociologically middle class, and mods/early skinheads that were a lot of tough, working class kids. but then again it's kinda hard to quantify this

[Tenka]

Erm . . . I'm pretty sure punk is contested ground at best. Honestly, the vast majority of punks I know are the children of state functionaries, paper-pushers, small-time managers, etc. ("hangers on" to the bourgeoisie). I certainly know working class punks, and they certainly outnumber rich punks (though maybe that's just an inevitability of capitalist demographics), but there's certainly nothing inherently working class about it.

And don't forget: The Ramones were crypto-fascist reactionaries. Seriously, look it up.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Contested politically? Yes.

Working class? At least it used to be according to the stories I heard and a few posts I've read on other forums. That's my impression anyway.

At the same time, I think it's necessary to be critical of certain accounts, since cultural norms within punk scenes are likely to lead to people denying their class privilege, level of education, etc. I don't want to erase working class punks (since they're not uncommon), but I'm skeptical of assertions that they are definitive, especially as punk identities are often tied to an active becoming declassed - leaving work/school for transience, drug use, petty crime, etc.