Free Software Movement

[Jason]

How has the "Free Software Movement" affected the Marxist movement? Are there any opponents who believe that "paid software" should be the way of the future?

[Lowtech]

I feel that free software, especially being open, and freely available on Linux platforms is really coming out of the nature of data and its portability. Also, the fact that something as complex as an opperating system can be open sourced shows us that there's no reason society can't be open sourced. Linux OS is not designed to be a product, people are freely able to participate on its design, and thus has surrpassed all comercial counter parts.

Ownership and elitism are the only legs capitalism stands on.

[ckaihatsu]

We really should be springboarding off of this, to point out that since open-source software can be produced and distributed for free -- essentially a donated service to the public -- everyone should be rethinking how society organizes *all the rest* of its productive activities.

Granted, the digital domain benefits from its unique infinitesimal nature, by how readily and perfectly digital products and services may be "mass-produced". But any industrial process should be compared likewise, since mass production off of the assembly line is almost just as automatic and effortless as copying a file on a computer, once everything is set up properly.

[Lowtech]

everyone should be rethinking how society organizes *all the rest* of its productive activities.

I second this.

and, could we not move materials in a more raw form, in large quantities based on need, then at the lower, individual level, one would use a 3D printer to produce items based on his prefrence?

There's already attempts at printing human organs, even precise moving working tools can be produced. eventually, whole engines, generators and computers can be produced with 3D printers.

[ckaihatsu]

Being something of a technophile I certainly appreciate the prospects that 3D printing may bring with it. I'd welcome anything that increases self-sufficiency and material ability generally, for the regular person.

I could definitely see 3D printing, nanotech, and homebrew genetic engineering as being the 'IT of tomorrow', the next technological revolution within the near- to mid-future. At the same time these fields leave much to be explained, particularly from a revolutionary perspective. Something like The Venus Project would be a good step here, to hypothesize and flesh out an overall philosophical approach to how these technologies could be implemented, considering the Frankenstein's-monster aspect to any pioneering experimentation.

I also appreciate your tiered approach here -- I find it to be informed by complexity theory, meaning that you're addressing various *scales* of production, for varying scales of consumption and social needs.

I'll invoke 'mixed and uneven development' to note that conventional industrial processes might *never* go away entirely, since it may remain the most appropriate method for large-scale infrastructure-type projects.

All that said, though, we should also be clear that politically we don't place our hopes in *any* consumer-oriented developments alone since they inherently sidestep the paramount issue of just which interests will be in control of its actual manifestation.

The use of the term 'revolution' in the technology context -- as in 'industrial revolution' or 'technological revolution' -- is merely a term of convenience since the precise meaning of revolution denotes a mass *political* overthrowing of entrenched authority and social organization.

It's always tempting to just lean back and imagine that existing market forces will inevitably usher in a technological utopia, obviating any revolutionary efforts on the part of anyone. If it came down to a single A-or-B choice, though, we would far prefer the *political* revolution, since that would immediately provide a social basis for introducing the *most* appropriate and helpful technological aids, for absolutely every individual in society.

[Lowtech]

At the same time these fields leave much to be explained, particularly from a revolutionary perspective. Something like The Venus Project would be a good step here I agree, although, the Venus project has the right vision, I wonder how fleshed out the concept actually is. We aught to open source a blueprint for a communist city, utilizing all modern technologies. one could, based on numerical study of current production, extrapolate things like, total materials needed to sustain a human being, production capacities required of large permaculture systems, and design the skill sets that are most productive in communist terms. then develop tiers where the infrastructure starts small, in pilot groups around the world.

[ckaihatsu]

I agree, although, the Venus project has the right vision, I wonder how fleshed out the concept actually is.


Yes, I agree entirely -- I only mentioned it because it has impressive illustrative power.





We aught to open source a blueprint for a communist city, utilizing all modern technologies.


Yes, "exactly". (See next section.)





one could, based on numerical study of current production, extrapolate things like, total materials needed to sustain a human being, production capacities required of large permaculture systems, and design the skill sets that are most productive in communist terms.


Yes, as long as people don't become too attached to it -- perhaps instead of 'blueprint' -- which connotes a final, set-in-stone plan -- we should be aiming to develop a "baseline" for the average person, along the lines you're indicating.





then develop tiers where the infrastructure starts small, in pilot groups around the world.


This part, though, is where I hesitate, because any attempt at direct implementation today would immediately run up against capitalism's social constraints, namely the need for a budget.

Perhaps a *simulation* like SimLife would be more appropriate here for the time being.

[Lowtech]

One quick idea could be large, mostly auntonymous permaculture structures that are a combination of a food/materials production center. with the addition of 3D printers and automation, these centers could produce all materials, tools, fabrications needed to replicate itself or so people can produce other structures.

Perhaps in the future, these things will be both centers of economic strength and sort of "monuments" to communist philosophy and principles.

[Lowtech]

part, though, is where I hesitate, because any attempt at direct implementation today would immediately run up against capitalism's social constraints, namely the need for a budget.

Perhaps a *simulation* like SimLife would be more appropriate here for the time being.

I do see your concern. although, I feel humanity is much more robust than you imagine. And i am sure that the poorest countries in the world will embrace applied communism so strongly that capitalism will not be able to break thier bond to it. And even if the pulotocratic class started all out war over it, the Pandoras box has already been opened, people will largley know there is no practical reason for capitalism and with established infrastructures, nomatter how small, people will goto them as an alternative to wage slavery.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Let's leave the Venus Project cult out of RevLeft, please. Thanks

The GPL in particular is a good 'real-world' introduction to the concept of the negation of private property to the layperson. Especially re: the gcc suite.

[Lowtech]

Let's leave the Venus Project cult out of RevLeft, please. Thanks

The GPL in particular is a good 'real-world' introduction to the concept of the negation of private property to the layperson. Especially re: the gcc suite.

It was mentioned, however no one is actually discussing it itself. Do you have an actual comment regarding what is actually being discussed or are you expressing the fact you're just too annoyed with one little thing to have a productive conversation?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

It was mentioned, however no one is actually discussing it itself. Do you have an actual comment regarding what is actually being discussed or are you expressing the fact you're just too annoyed with one little thing to have a productive conversation?
Apparently you don't know enough about the free software movement to understand that second sentence.

[Lowtech]

Apparently you don't know enough about the free software movement to understand that second sentence.

we are guilty of taking the discussion off topic, that still has no relation to the fact your attitude is the equivalent of hatred of Santa because he's not real and never brought you the weenie whistle you wanted.

we're having a productive discussion about fascinating things, UNRELATED to the what you're crying about. if you don't like something and want to start a fight, feel free to PM me.

[ckaihatsu]

I do see your concern. although, I feel humanity is much more robust than you imagine.


I don't understand your meaning here -- I mean to point out that in our present-day there is a political industry in NGOs, NPOs, voluntarism, etc. There is an inherent trade-off between money and leftist principles since the world as it is requires attention to financial matters for the sake of organization / manifestation -- it takes away from the more-authentically-political side of things.

I don't know how to address the transition precisely, of course, since it could only be pure speculation. That's why I counsel a 'looser grip' when it comes to this approach that you're airing.





And i am sure that the poorest countries in the world will embrace applied communism so strongly that capitalism will not be able to break thier bond to it. And even if the pulotocratic class started all out war over it, the Pandoras box has already been opened, people will largley know there is no practical reason for capitalism and with established infrastructures, nomatter how small, people will goto them as an alternative to wage slavery.


Okay, sure.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

we are guilty of taking the discussion off topic, that still has no relation to the fact your attitude is the equivalent of hatred of Santa because he's not real and never brought you the weenie whistle you wanted.

we're having a productive discussion about fascinating things, UNRELATED to the what you're crying about. if you don't like something and want to start a fight, feel free to PM me.
Alrighty, you're pretty damn arrogant, so why don't you read that second sentence I wrote, the sentence after the one you're having a complete shit over, and ask yourself how it relates to the OP.


I think it's pretty obvious you do not know what the hell "GPL" and "gcc" mean in the context of the OP. So why are you talking about free software?

[Lowtech]

I don't understand your meaning hererobust as in, people are resilient to economic pressure, military actions, violence, etc.

I don't know how to address the transition precisely, of course, since it could only be pure speculation. That's why I counsel a 'looser grip' when it comes to this approach that you're airing. you're definitely more reasonable minded about it than i am... i don't profess it to be an approach, just feasible use of technology in a communistic sense.

[ckaihatsu]

robust as in, people are resilient to economic pressure, military actions, violence, etc.


Okay.





you're definitely more reasonable minded about it than i am... i don't profess it to be an approach, just feasible use of technology in a communistic sense.


Semantically 'approach' and 'feasible use' are one and the same thing.

[Lowtech]

Alrighty, you're pretty damn arrogant, so why don't you read that second sentence I wrote, the sentence after the one you're having a complete shit over, and ask yourself how it relates to the OP.


I think it's pretty obvious you do not know what the hell "GPL" and "gcc" mean in the context of the OP. So why are you talking about free software?

i refereed to open source software in the original reply. i felt it important to make the distinction. open sourced free software has a practical and really an inherent philosophy that is quite communistic.

i can't help you with the anger issues man. there's therapy or drugs for that.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

i refereed to open source software in the original reply. i felt it important to make the distinction. open sourced free software has a practical and really an inherent philosophy that is quite communistic.
i can't help you with the anger issues man. there's therapy or drugs for that.
Let's look at the post.



It was mentioned, however no one is actually discussing it itself. Do you have an actual comment regarding what is actually being discussed or are you expressing the fact you're just too annoyed with one little thing to have a productive conversation?
Nope, nothing acknowledging my reply to the OP regarding the gpl and gcc, just you whining about how I called the venus project a cult and completely ignoring that I said something of substance right afterwards.


You're a troll, and a bad one at that.

[Lowtech]

Semantically 'approach' and 'feasible use' are one and the same thing. i can't deny that. i suppose i mistook you for implying i was pushing an technocratic ideology (approach) versus just possible usage of technology (feasibility). ultimately, i'm really passionate about the thought communism could be realized within our lifetime, so my mind is always abuzz.

[Lowtech]

You're a troll, and a bad one at that.

no one that can read would agree with you. you misunderstood me, my first reply to this thread is what i am referring to.

you came into this thread with the intent to "troll," i was already here.

[ckaihatsu]

i can't deny that. i suppose i mistook you for implying i was pushing an technocratic ideology (approach) versus just possible usage of technology (feasibility).




ultimately, i'm really passionate about the thought communism could be realized within our lifetime, so my mind is always abuzz.


Understandable and commendable.

I can only repeat myself at this point and suggest that a bit of conceptual structure might be helpful here, as you outlined earlier. You could 'beef it up' by considering what methods might be most effective in getting this message across.

[Jason]

Of course, free software first began to cause huge controversy with "Napster". Some viewed the site as theft of copyright holders.