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Tim Cornelis
4th January 2013, 13:34
There is this Holocaust museum where you get a card of a child that was persecuted and you follow his or her story throughout the years, in the end you find if the person lived or died. This has a large emotional impact and shows effectively the horror of mass murder.

I initially thought of posting this as a role-playing game, with a similar intent. But that would have been too much effort for too little result. Something like this, where revleft-users decide where to go:

"It is 1933 when Hitler seizes power. You are a leading German communist who is now facing tough decisions. You can choose to remain in Germany for whatever reasons, you can flee into fascist-controlled Italy, or go into exile into the Soviet Union. All other countries are (near) impossible to enter."

What decisions you make would effect the outcome of your life: sent to a concentration camp, killed in a concentration camp, die in a carpet bombing, or survive.

I would have roughly applied historically accurate figures so as to not make this a story of fiction. If you had remained in Germany there was a 15.8% of being killed by the Nazis. If you had gone into exile to the Soviet Union there was a 12.7% of being killed, and a bigger chance you or your family member would have been tortured or sent to a Gulag camp.


In 1933, two stories were added, giving the hotel 300 rooms. The address, meanwhile, was changed to Gorky Street 10.[1] 1933 was also the year Adolf Hitler gained power with the Machtergreifung and soon began to arrest and imprison his political opponents, arresting communists and socialists by the thousands. German communists began to flee to the Soviet Union and the Hotel Lux began to fill with German exiles.[8]

In addition to party functionaries, there were advisors, translators and writers who came with their families. Employees were brought to the Comintern Central Committee's offices by bus.[9] The hotel became overcrowded and conditions were difficult. The hotel was continually plagued by rats;[1] the earliest reports of them were in 1921. There was hot water only twice a week, forcing people to shower in groups, as many as four people at a time. Communal kitchens for the use of residents cooked food next to boiling pots of diapers being sterilized. In spite of the conditions, initially, there was camaraderie among the residents.[9] Children played in the halls[1][3] and attended a German-language school, the Karl Liebknecht School, set up for the children of exiles.[10]
[edit]
Stalin's purges

In 1934, after the murder of Sergei Kirov, Joseph Stalin began a campaign of political repression and persecution to cleanse the Party of "enemies of the people".[11] Stalin viewed the foreign occupants of Hotel Lux as potential spies,[9] or as a Moscow newspaper assumed of Germans (and Japanese) in 1937, they were working actively on behalf of their own country.[12] By 1936, his Great Purge began to include the hotel's residents.[9] The hotel then gained a second name, that of "the golden cage of the Comintern" because many would like to have left, but could not while being investigated.[1][9] Between 1936 and 1938, many residents of the hotel were arrested and interrogated by the NKVD (People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs).[1] Suspicion and betrayal created an atmosphere of fear. Arrests came in the middle of the night,[13] so that some residents slept in their clothes, others paced the floor, or played games of concentration to mask the stress.

An investigation or arrest was prompted more by the atmosphere of terror than by charges of wrongdoing, which were often baseless. Walter Laqueur later wrote of the period, "There was no rhyme or reason as to who was arrested and who was not, the security organs were given a plan to fulfill, a certain number of people were to be arrested in a certain region, and from this stage on it was more or less a matter of accident at whose door the NKVD (the secret police) emissaries would knock in the early hours of the morning."[14] The procedure was for the NKVD to knock, the accused was told to pack a small suitcase with a few things, get dressed and wait outside the door to be picked up and taken away. Then the NKVD returned to collect the accused and seal the door. One night, the NKVD knocked on the Langs' door and Franz Lang was told to get ready. Dutifully waiting outside his door to be picked up, the security police returned. "What are you doing standing around out here?", asked the NKVD. Lang replied that he'd been ordered to do so. "What's your room number?", asked the security officer. "Number 13." "We're only taking away the even numbers tonight!" Astonished, Lang went back to bed. Nor did the NKVD ever knock on his door again.[15]

In the morning, the doors of those arrested were sealed;[16][note 1] the wives and children had to move to other quarters and were ostracized as "enemies of the state".[9][note 2] The children of parents under investigation were placed in orphanages, where some died from illness and others rejected both their parents and their own German identity.[18] Some of the adults arrested were sent to a gulag or were executed. Those who came back were regarded with suspicion, as was the case with Herbert Wehner, who was taken away and returned twice. Such people were assumed to have betrayed others[1] under torture[11] or to save themselves. In Wehner's case, that was what happened.[9]

By 1938, in order to get upstairs in the hotel, a propusk was needed, a document that said one was authorized to get past the armed guard, standing in front of the elegant Art Nouveau elevator.[19] Even high-level members of the Comintern could not get past the guard without a propusk.[19]

The atmosphere affected the children. Rolf Schälike, who was a child at Hotel Lux, later wrote, "I grew up in Moscow, in the center of power, and state and non-state criminality, Gorky Street, Hotel Lux. It was the years 1938–1946. Around us too, there was juvenile violence. We played 'partisan and German fascists' in our Hotel Lux, and one kid in our group was hanged—for fun. He couldn't be revived again. There were frequent battles with iron bands with the kids from the neighboring building."[1]

Of the 1400 leading German communists, a total of 178 were killed in Stalin's purges, nearly all of them residents of Hotel Lux.[6] By comparison, the Nazis killed 222 of those 1400 leading German communists. Within the top leadership itself, there were 59 Politburo members between 1918 and 1945, six of whom were killed by Nazis and seven by the Stalinist purges.[6] The saying among the German communists was, "What the Gestapo left of the Communist Party of Germany, the NKWD picked up."[3] When Leon Trotsky was killed in August 1940, the purges at Hotel Lux stopped, bringing a brief respite to the exiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_Lux

To all Marxist-Leninists who uphold the Soviet Union under Stalin; I hope you realise there was a big chance that you would have been killed, tortured, sent to a gulag, detained, or your family broken up if you had lived in that time period.

The Soviet Union was a period of slave labour, wage-slavery, oppression, terror, and exploitation; yet you pretend there was democracy and freedom. How anyone can uphold such a regime, besides 13 year old Tankies, is beyond me. How anyone can believe that in such an atmosphere of terror and persecution, workers' democracy could actually function properly is beyond me.

TheGodlessUtopian
4th January 2013, 14:58
This post seemed at first to be propose a forum game then it drifted off into another meaningless tendency attack. So what is the point here? To initiate discussion on what the theoretical likelihood would be on [X tendency person] being sent to a [???] camp in either Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany? Do you really have nothing better to do than create such droll threads, especially when this has been discussed to death before?

Geiseric
4th January 2013, 18:51
This definately has to do with history, I don't see why people are getting so defensive.

Ostrinski
5th January 2013, 01:31
Totally convincing words of wisdom.ind com, you may or may not agree with what Tim Cornelis is saying but nothing that he said isn't relevant to historical discussion whether it is or is not a flawed analysis. Your response here is not constructive and does not add to the discussion at hand. If you disagree with what he is saying then tell us why he is wrong instead of posting one liners like this.

This post is going to have to constitute a verbal warning to ind com.

hetz
5th January 2013, 01:43
I'd just go to Austria, then Switzerland.
I mean I can run away to the USSR easily but it's "near impossible" to cross the alpine border with Austria?
Cool story bro.

l'Enfermé
5th January 2013, 02:15
What Hetz said. It was the fault of the KPD leadership that they got killed by Stalin. They thought that if they go to Russia, they've be treated like privileged guests and visiting dignitaries. Too bad for them Stalin had no qualms having tens of thousands of fellow Bolsheviks shot, why should he treat foreigners better?

Questionable
5th January 2013, 02:18
ind com, you may or may not agree with what Tim Cornelis is saying but nothing that he said isn't relevant to historical discussion whether it is or is not a flawed analysis. Your response here is not constructive and does not add to the discussion at hand. If you disagree with what he is saying then tell us why he is wrong instead of posting one liners like this.

This post is going to have to constitute a verbal warning to ind com.

What he's saying might be interesting, but you don't think the last bit was a tendency attack? Especially the bit where he said that only 13-year-old tankies could support the Soviet Union? It was clearly written in a hostile manner.

IrishWorker
5th January 2013, 02:30
If Id have been alive in those days the Fascists would never had taken power in Germany muhahahahaha

Ostrinski
5th January 2013, 02:36
What he's saying might be interesting, but you don't think the last bit was a tendency attack? Especially the bit where he said that only 13-year-old tankies could support the Soviet Union? It was clearly written in a hostile manner.I'd say it was aggressive and probably a tad bit in poor taste but mind you that he did not say that all Marxist-Leninists were 13 year old tankies, but that he doesn't understand how anyone other than a 13 year old tankie could support some of the things that Marxist-Leninists support. I think the former would have constituted a flame while the latter is just a matter of personal opinion.

It is indeed a tendency attack, unfortunately no other forum is going to be prone to those more than the history forum, such will have to be accepted as the reality of things. I don't consider it flame-bait because it regards an actual historical topic with a bit of tendency jab in the aftertaste. There is a difference between aggression and flame. Marxist-Leninists and indeed all other tendencies are welcome to do the same, but tendency aggression is just something we're going to have to deal with on a political forum that encompasses as broad a political spectrum as this one.

As far as my answer to the OP goes: I probably would have thrown my luck in with the Soviet Union, even considering the dangerous circumstances you mentioned. It isn't as if the fascist government in Italy was much kinder to communists, and it was an all around shitty situation if you were a communist at that place and time.

Geiseric
5th January 2013, 04:13
I mean defending the murder of communist refugees is like defending the deportation of slave refugees during the 1800s in the northern U.S.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
5th January 2013, 04:27
I mean defending the murder of communist refugees is like defending the deportation of slave refugees during the 1800s in the northern U.S.

No one is defending that in this thread. This thread could have had been an interesting one, but now it is turned to a flame fest thanks to the sectarianism of the OP. At this point it's just stupid. You want to debate the merits of Marxist-Leninism? Fine go ahead, be my guest, Marxist-Leninism, but stop with this ad hominem bullshit. If you can't get past ad hominem points then you have lost the debate by proving that your tendency has nothing better to offer in theory. Besides, I can just as well discredit Trotskyism by the fact that Trotsky leaked information to the FBI about the Soviet Union, but I don't. Do you know why? Because Trotskyism is a tendency, not a cult, and has merits separate from it's founder.

The sad thing is that the vast majority of Anti-"Stalinists" don't even seem to understand what Anti-Revisionism is or the context it developed in. I'm called a Stalinist all the time on here and I've never even said any nice things about the bastard, the fuck?

Seriously, the fuck?

Is that the best you can do? ad hominem slander? I can accuse you of sleeping with my mother, that does not make it true and even if it was true it would not discredit your ideas.

Geiseric
5th January 2013, 04:54
First off trotsky never leaked info to the FBI, which is why he wasn't allowed entrence into the U.S. there are records of the stalinists in the CP USA ratting out the SWP however. That's what the smith trials were. There are no ad hominem attacks, only factual evidence.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
5th January 2013, 05:01
First off trotsky never leaked info to the FBI, which is why he wasn't allowed entrence into the U.S. there are records of the stalinists in the CP USA ratting out the SWP however. That's what the smith trials were. There are no ad hominem attacks, only factual evidence.

The point still stands. Ad Hominem attacks against Stalin do not discredit Marxist-Leninism. Just like attacking the charcther of Trotsky does nothing to discredit Trotskyism

Ostrinski
5th January 2013, 05:17
This is getting a bit off topic. Let's try to steer it back before it turns into another Marxist-Leninist vs. Trotskyist death match, please. This is a thread about what a German communist would have done at the advent of the rise of the fascists to power in Germany, although I'm afraid it might be a non-starter.

Zostrianos
5th January 2013, 05:29
I think I'd take a risk and flee to Italy, and hide somewhere in there, maybe under an assumed identity. Neither Germany or the USSR are options for me; the risk is too great and obvious in both cases. I don't know about Communists specifically, but from what I read about Fascist Italy, the level of repression and terror under Mussolini was a joke compared to Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia.

Ostrinski
5th January 2013, 05:39
Sadly that type of logic will go over the heads of the reactionary's comrade, pity them.IrishWorker, what drew you toward the conclusion that this was at all constructive and that it is ok to post such things? You are perfectly within the realm of reason to consider Trotskyists reactionary and for whatever reason to consider your own logic superior to that of the Trotskyists. But this post does nothing but invite more off topic posting, more flaming, and more one liners.

Sorry, but this is going to have to constitute a verbal warning to IrishWorker.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen folks, I want the history forum to be good and for the discussion on it to be of high quality. I want you all to help me in this and so we can't just let this kind of thing slide. Please stop!

Comrade Samuel
5th January 2013, 05:46
I doubt there is one genuine Marxist-Leninist who defends what Stalin did to forign communists. The man fucked up immensely on many things but it doesent discredit all of the good he did and it certainly doesent discredit his ideas, it just gives western historians something to fall back on when it becomes apparent that trying to draw ridiculace connections between genuine communist theory and mass killing of innocence carried out by nationalist who only wanted funding is completely wrong.

This thread reeks of flame baiting so I guess I'll have to check back frequently to get my laughs before it closes.

Geiseric
5th January 2013, 07:53
First off it isn't only western historians who have a problem with the great purges, its a huge deal on the minds of a lot of people, who are taught about events that actually happened, which are events taken advantage of by the bourgeois idealists. It wasn't a very small deal, it changed completely soviet political structure and it killed or isolated many of the leading guard, and many founders of the communist international affiliated parties.

Zealot
5th January 2013, 19:15
I'd say it was aggressive and probably a tad bit in poor taste but mind you that he did not say that all Marxist-Leninists were 13 year old tankies, but that he doesn't understand how anyone other than a 13 year old tankie could support some of the things that Marxist-Leninists support. I think the former would have constituted a flame while the latter is just a matter of personal opinion.

Why are you even making a distinction? They're two ways of saying the same thing.

Call someone reactionary = verbal warning.
Call ML's 13 year old tankies = "a tad bit in poor taste"

As for the OP, definitely the USSR. The whole story has been twisted in order to fit the agenda of anti-Marxists. First of all, many people, including the OP, have framed the story in a way that makes it seem as if Stalin was actively on the prow for foreign Communists in the Soviet Union, which just isn't the case. People in the Hotel Lux were arrested after being suspected of spying for a fascist regime, not because they were Communists. The article itself even admits that all of the arrested were almost exclusively residents of that particular hotel. Secondly, there is no "big chance" that I or any other Marxist-Leninist would have been arrested/killed/eaten based on the experience of 178 German Communists arrested exclusively at the Hotel Lux for being suspected of spying for a fascist regime (and which obviously ignores the fact that thousands of other Communists passed through the hotel without being arrested at all). Thirdly, we could call into question the validity of the sources for this particular story although for now I'm willing to just accept it as valid since it still doesn't prove what people here think it does. Nice try though.

Ostrinski
5th January 2013, 21:11
Why are you even making a distinction? They're two ways of saying the same thing.

Call someone reactionary = verbal warning.
Call ML's 13 year old tankies = "a tad bit in poor taste"He didn't call Marxist-Leninists 13 year old tankies. If he did it would have been a verbal warning. What he explicitly said was that he didn't understand how anyone other than 13 year old tankies could support those things. There is indeed a difference.

Furthermore, the distinction between aggressive posting and flaming lies in the fact that the former is either followed or led with actual content and the latter is a post that is exclusively purposed with making an unconstructive inflammatory one liner, or something that is purposed with drawing in such posts.

Art Vandelay
6th January 2013, 03:05
I think that in all honesty I would of done my best to attempt to stay in Germany for as long as possible. I would of certainly been terrified, but fleeing would of seemed like a non-option to me.

ind_com
6th January 2013, 07:24
This thread makes me laugh so much. A communist should want to live in a region where things are the worst, so that he can aid the working class more in overthrowing the rulers. If you all think that Russia was worse, then your choice should have been Russia itself.

Yazman
6th January 2013, 16:44
MODERATOR ACTION:

Red Godfather, Questionable, and others - this isn't the appropriate place to discuss moderator actions. If you need to voice your approval or disagreement on a moderator's action: do not reply to his post about it. Send them (or another moderator) a private message.

You are not allowed to make posts doing this. This is the History forum. You're supposed to be making posts regarding historical discussion & events. If your post in this thread isn't about persecution of communists, don't post. Otherwise it's an off-topic post. Ostrinski will do his job and you will contribute to the topic discussion in a meaningful way. Public threads are only for discussion of the subject matter described in the original post. They are not for discussion of moderator actions.

Let this be a warning to you all. Questionable has been warned not to make posts like this elsewhere before and will be infracted. The rest of you have been warned. Red Godfather - your post was otherwise substantial and constructive. In future please try to just keep the on-topic parts only.


This post constitutes a public warning.

p.s. I don't want to see any smartasses replying to this action in this thread or I'll infract you (you've already been warned). If you have a comment, PM me or another mod.

Lokomotive293
10th January 2013, 16:15
I'm going to ignore all the stuff about Stalin, and get right to the OP's actual question: I can't say what I would have done, but from a rational point of view, stay in Germany as long as possible, work for the illegal Communist Party cells, do everything you can to try and build up resistance. If you get busted and are able to flee, realistically speaking, go to the country you have the best chance to get to and be safe, and that depends on the particular situation. Of course, if given the choice, go to the USSR. Later on, during the war, many German communists also defected to the Red Army. Ever heard of the National Committee for a free Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Committee_for_a_Free_Germany)?

Invader Zim
10th January 2013, 17:09
Given the hypothetical situation described: Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or bust - and with the Soviet Union offering a 3.1% increased probability of survival, it would have to be the Soviet Union.

Geiseric
11th January 2013, 04:23
I'd go to mexico. It would of been in a revolutionary phase at that point.

Ostrinski
12th January 2013, 06:05
Watch out for the ice picks.Knock it off. Quips such as these are not funny and add nothing to the discussion. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion then don't add anything at all.


Wow look at the internet tough guyBroody, please do not encourage him/her and do not respond to flame baits (whether intentional or unintentional) in kind. It was a dumb comment but you still have to follow the rules. PM a mod or admin next time you come across such a provocation.

Verbal warning to goalkeeper and Broody Guthrie. Stay on topic please.

Rugged Collectivist
12th January 2013, 06:09
I'd either go to the Soviet Union and probably get killed. Or I would go to some other country, wait out the war, and then go to the DDR and also probably get killed.