cuba stuff

[tooAlive]

Because Cuba is finally starting to figure out that communism/socialism doesn't work.

Took them a little over half a century, but better late than never. :thumbup1:

[Lowtech]

are you going to give a structured argument or are you just going to let me laugh at your garbage post?

capitalism has no stake in anything mankind has accomplished. it is mathematically observable that a plutocratic society can only exist via artificial scarcity. the rich consumer more than they produce. the rich enjoy unregulated welfare that they squander arrogantly with their own kind of entitlement which they refer to as "ownership"

[nativeabuse]

Cuba was never Communist.

[Ostrinski]

Cuba is an isolated (not completely or as much as North Korea, but enough to strangle the economy) economy. It's recent marketization policies and implementations are the result of the difficulties of self-sufficiency, not because they're coming to some grand conclusion that the system they've had for the last five decades doesn't work.

[tooAlive]

My apologies for coming out a little too harsh. And I suppose I should have added a little more substance to validate my point of view.

To be fair, "true communism" as you advocate has never been tried; at least not historically documented. Secondly, I refer to Cuba as being communist because that is what they identify themselves as.

And my attitude towards Cuba comes from having family there, going there myself, and seeing first-hand what life is like there.

[Let's Get Free]

A large part of the reason why the Cuban economy is in the state it's in is because of the blockade. The point of the blockade was to wreck the cuban economy and make the people of cuba suffer. it ha succeeded in the second goal but not the first. although it has crippled cubas external trade the island has become a model for self sufficiency in many areas

[Ostrinski]

A market economy would be crippled by the same obstacles that are giving the last Stalinist states trouble. Probably a meaningless point to make given that marketization's purpose is to facilitate foreign trade, but the point still stands.

[Zostrianos]

Because Cuba is finally starting to figure out that communism/socialism doesn't work.
Took them a little over half a century, but better late than never. :thumbup1:

Again, I'll reiterate the good aspects of the Cuban system: good free healthcare (best in the world), basic standard of living for everyone, and no crime. All things America does not have. So it does work after all.

[tooAlive]

Again, I'll reiterate the good aspects of the Cuban system: good free healthcare (best in the world), basic standard of living for everyone, and no crime. All things America does not have. So it does work after all.

Lets assume you're right, and that Cuba does indeed have the best health care system in the world. Now read this, and tell me what you think.

Did you know Cuba has two different currencies? The Cuban Peso and the CUC.

One CUC (Same value as USD) is worth about 27 Pesos. The government pays workers in Pesos, and the minimum monthly salary in Cuba is 120 pesos, while the maximum is 600 pesos made normally by doctors. For the sake of this argument, lets say our average worker earns 300 pesos a month, which is pretty good.

Since Cubans are paid in Pesos, we'll need to convert that amount into CUC. 300 / 27 = $11 CUC.

That's $11 to feed yourself or even your family.

Walk into any government owned store to buy your groceries or things for the home, and you'll find stuff at roughly the same price you'll find at a Wal-Mart here.

Tell me, how much food can you buy for $11 at Wal-Mart? Do you think you could survive a month off $11? Things cost the same, so if you can't do it here, why would it be any easier in Cuba?

That's less than Cubans made back in the days of Batista, with all the exploitation going on as you say. And that was over 50 years ago. Can you imagine that?

Now, onto their healthcare system.

Lets say there's an elderly woman that needs to go to one of the larger hospitals a few provinces away for treatment. How will she get there? Do you think she can walk a few hundred miles? Will the ambulance come pick her up? Not quite.

She has to take a car. How much do you think that ride will cost her? Considering prices of fuel are pretty much on par with the rest of the world, she'd be expected to fork out about $60 for this trip (Havana to Cardenas, for example.) The ride back is usually included, as most of the time these independent chauffeurs will wait for the person at the hospital.

So, that's $60 for a trip to the hospital. Lets assume the trip was much closer, and the driver is someone she knows and gets a "hook-up." Half off, $30. The average salary a month is $11! How will she even be able to afford $30 for a ride to the hospital, let alone $60! Oh, and not to mention an elderly woman will definitely NOT be making anywhere near that much from her retirement, which makes things even more unimaginable.

She can't even afford the ride to the hospital!

I'm only grazing the tip of the iceberg here. Because once you get to the hospital, the conditions would shock you. I know, I just got back from there 6 months ago. Had to take my grandfather there for some procedures. I think he was better off just staying home.

Now, lets go back to the issue of food, clothes, ect.

You may argue that Cuba has a shortage, right? Due to the embargo? Yes, Cuba has a shortage for the government-provided rations only. There's basically nothing being given out by the government anymore.

But, if you have money, you'll be fine because there's plenty of stuff. Food, brand-name clothing, shoes, cars, ect.. But how much can the average Cuban buy with $11 a month? You tell me. And in case you don't believe me, here are a few pics of the average grocery store in Cuba.

Edit - My images were removed due to my low post count. PM me if you want the links.

Again, I mean this with total respect. It's not easy to know all this stuff unless you have lived through it or gone and seen it happen personally.

[blake 3:17]

Cuba is an isolated (not completely or as much as North Korea, but enough to strangle the economy) economy. It's recent marketization policies and implementations are the result of the difficulties of self-sufficiency, not because they're coming to some grand conclusion that the system they've had for the last five decades doesn't work.

It's survival. Some of the economic liberalization I think is actually a step forward in terms of letting people improve(?) their subsistence.

I've heard more about foreign ownership coming in to effect which isn't so good.

On other social fronts, it's remarkable that they've made some serious progressive reforms in recent years, most especially around sexuality and the abolition of the death penalty. It does seem like the one revolution which has been able to learn from its mistakes.

[Le Socialiste]

Either you're trolling, or you really think you've dealt a significant blow to all of us here (or both). It's laughable.

Cuba's economy and political model has more in common with the state capitalist line seen in 'Stalinist' countries, the remnants of which can be found in N. Korea and the aforementioned Cuban state. Neither are socialist or, as some here would maintain, deformed workers' states. It's not a matter open to the subjectivity of one's personal opinion, it's objective reality. Now, Cuba's current situation is a result of many factors, namely isolation as enforced by the interests of the U.S. government and ruling-class; it's worth noting also that Castro's 'pivot' towards the Soviet camp was of an opportunistic nature, given his earlier appeal to the U.S. for recognition and support (which the latter spurned).

This present period of 'liberalization' has less to do with the sudden realization that "communism" is a failed system and more to do with protecting the longevity and survival of the existing state. Of course, what we're seeing here is not an abandonment of socialism - Cuba would have to have been socialist first in order for that to be true. No, this is merely a transitional phase, an introductory period for more longterm 'reforms' to the existing economy, which would naturally entail further privatization and liberalization and a subsequent opening to foreign markets.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

*yaaaaaaawn* Rightie troll

[Blake's Baby]

... I refer to Cuba as being communist because that is what they identify themselves as...

Barak Obama refers to himself as a 'Democrat'. Does that mean whatever Barak Obama does is 'democratic'?

China calls itself a 'Republic'. Does that mean whatever the Chinese do is 'Republican'?

[The Cheshire Cat]

I'm not saying we should ban this guy, but can we at least ignore him? He is not going to make any intelligent or illuminating posts here, and he isn't here for learning, like he told us in his introduction, either... He is probably or trolling, or on some sort of holy crusade to show the commies how evil and twisyed their ideology is and that it will never work.. He doesn't ask questions, doesn't seem to even want to learn, and we aren't going to learn anything from him either. He came here with predjudices and he isn't going to let them go. We should not waste time with him while we can spend our time more useful. That's what I think...

[BeingAndGrime]

hey man i dont think your a troll, but take a stroll through Mexico (not just tijuana) or Honduras and then tell us how shit Cuba is. I think its doing alright compared to the region.

[tooAlive]

Either you're trolling, or you really think you've dealt a significant blow to all of us here (or both). It's laughable.

Cuba's economy and political model has more in common with the state capitalist line seen in 'Stalinist' countries, the remnants of which can be found in N. Korea and the aforementioned Cuban state. Neither are socialist or, as some here would maintain, deformed workers' states. It's not a matter open to the subjectivity of one's personal opinion, it's objective reality. Now, Cuba's current situation is a result of many factors, namely isolation as enforced by the interests of the U.S. government and ruling-class; it's worth noting also that Castro's 'pivot' towards the Soviet camp was of an opportunistic nature, given his earlier appeal to the U.S. for recognition and support (which the latter spurned).

This present period of 'liberalization' has less to do with the sudden realization that "communism" is a failed system and more to do with protecting the longevity and survival of the existing state. Of course, what we're seeing here is not an abandonment of socialism - Cuba would have to have been socialist first in order for that to be true. No, this is merely a transitional phase, an introductory period for more longterm 'reforms' to the existing economy, which would naturally entail further privatization and liberalization and a subsequent opening to foreign markets.

So you're saying that Cuba is in it's current situation because of the Embargo.

Assuming that were true, are you saying a communist (or state capitalist, as you've said) society like Cuba is dependent on a capitalist country like the US to survive?

[tooAlive]

I'm not saying we should ban this guy, but can we at least ignore him? He is not going to make any intelligent or illuminating posts here, and he isn't here for learning, like he told us in his introduction, either... He is probably or trolling, or on some sort of holy crusade to show the commies how evil and twisyed their ideology is and that it will never work.. He doesn't ask questions, doesn't seem to even want to learn, and we aren't going to learn anything from him either. He came here with predjudices and he isn't going to let them go. We should not waste time with him while we can spend our time more useful. That's what I think...

So, because I have different beliefs than you, I'm unintelligent?

It's nice to hear you're open to new ideas.

[PigmerikanMao]

So you're saying that Cuba is in it's current situation because of the Embargo.

Assuming that were true, are you saying a communist (or state capitalist, as you've said) society like Cuba is dependent on a capitalist country like the US to survive?

Communists are internationalists for a plethora of reasons, among them being the understanding that socialism in one state- while perhaps useful as a consolidation during a world revolution, is not sustainable in the long term, especially when Cuba is only a small nation and only able to produce certain commodities relative to their geography. It's not a matter of a communist country being dependent on a capitalist country- its a matter of one country's necessary relationship to all others through international trade.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

So you're saying that Cuba is in it's current situation because of the Embargo.

Assuming that were true, are you saying a communist (or state capitalist, as you've said) society like Cuba is dependent on a capitalist country like the US to survive?
Every state depends on every other state to survive. That's how modern economies work

If China embargoed the US we'd die off in weeks

[The Cheshire Cat]

So, because I have different beliefs than you, I'm unintelligent?

It's nice to hear you're open to new ideas.

Could you quote the part where I said it was because your different beliefs? Hell, I don't even know what your beliefs are except that you're a capitalist. While you are searching, I will show you the real reason... Actually, just read the first post you made in this thread. Apparently, that is your idea of 'learning'. Does it seem intelligent to you, posting flamebait posts like that where you claim Cuba is communist on a website full of communists, while we told you multiple times communism has never been achieved?

[tooAlive]

Could you quote the part where I said it was because your different beliefs? Hell, I don't even know what your beliefs are except that you're a capitalist. While you are searching, I will show you the real reason... Actually, just read the first post you made in this thread. Apparently, that is your idea of 'learning'. Does it seem intelligent to you, posting flamebait posts like that where you claim Cuba is communist on a website full of communists, while we told you multiple times communism has never been achieved?

That was my first post and I already apologized for it.

It was uncalled for, you're right. Cuba is just a very touchy subject for me, and I tend to let my emotions get the better of me sometimes.

So again, in case you missed it, I apologize for my opening post.

[Comrade Samuel]

Really man, Cuba is to communism what Taco Bell is to Mexican food.

[Jason]

It's easy to say that "communism doesn't work" from the pampered seat of an American. Americans are bought off by imperalism, and so do have extremely high standards of living. However, as a poster stated before, other non-communist nations have not been bought off (Mexico, Honduras, Egypt).

And of course, all of the people in the "bought off nations" are convinced they deserve thier position because of "hard work", and even some racist people think it's due to some innate superiority. In the end, it's all due to a favored position in trade and power (imperalism).

[TheRedAnarchist23]

So, because I have different beliefs than you, I'm unintelligent?

It's nice to hear you're open to new ideas.

That is a common thing here: if you have different beleifs you are a dumb troll. It is something I completely disagree with.
Unfortunately, revleft has a very strict policy and upholds a system that can only be described as stalinism enforced by anarchist admins. I have said many times that people of other ideologies should be allowed to post here, but they will imediately throw you into "oposing ideologies" and ban you 2 weeks after you joined. Just so that you have a comparison, stormfront has a more liberal policy than revleft.

[Le Socialiste]

It's easy to say that "communism doesn't work" from the pampered seat of an American. Americans are bought off by imperalism, and so do have extremely high standards of living. However, as a poster stated before, other non-communist nations have not been bought off (Mexico, Honduras, Egypt).

And of course, all of the people in the "bought off nations" are convinced they deserve thier position because of "hard work", and even some racist people think it's due to some innate superiority. In the end, it's all due to a favored position in trade and power (imperalism).

I certainly don't believe I've "earned" my position through "hard work," nor do most of the people on this board. Perhaps you should refrain from making blanket statements like these, seeing as they're, well...not true.

What about the struggles in Greece? Spain? What about the Quebec student strikes in Canada? The Occupy movement? What about the fact that these movements all played off of and fed into each other, occasionally publicizing their solidarity with the struggles of workers in Egypt, Tunisia, and elsewhere (and vice versa), demonstrating a true sense of internationalism?

No one's 'bought off'; to say otherwise is to assume a dramatically immaterial world view that has little to no basis in reality.

[Rafiq]

You're forgetting the fact that in cuba 11 dollars is more than plenty. 11 dollars in cuba you can survive off for a month. Moron.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Jason]

I certainly don't believe I've "earned" my position through "hard work," nor do most of the people on this board. Perhaps you should refrain from making blanket statements like these, seeing as they're, well...not true.

What about the struggles in Greece? Spain? What about the Quebec student strikes in Canada? The Occupy movement? What about the fact that these movements all played off of and fed into each other, occasionally publicizing their solidarity with the struggles of workers in Egypt, Tunisia, and elsewhere (and vice versa), demonstrating a true sense of internationalism?

No one's 'bought off'; to say otherwise is to assume a dramatically immaterial world view that has little to no basis in reality.

You misunderstood me, I didn't really mean ALL Americans believed that. But a lot of them do think this way (as well as do people in other 1st world nations). However, a lot of them don't.

"Bought off" might be too strong. But being in the 1st world does have huge advantages brought upon by simply living in the 1st world. OF course, a slave with more advantages might be more tempted to fight for his master, seeing how his existance is "comfortable" enough.

[tooAlive]

That is a common thing here: if you have different beleifs you are a dumb troll. It is something I completely disagree with.
Unfortunately, revleft has a very strict policy and upholds a system that can only be described as stalinism enforced by anarchist admins. I have said many times that people of other ideologies should be allowed to post here, but they will imediately throw you into "oposing ideologies" and ban you 2 weeks after you joined. Just so that you have a comparison, stormfront has a more liberal policy than revleft.

I noticed that.

For saying communism gives everyone plenty of liberty, they show very little of that here.


You're forgetting the fact that in cuba 11 dollars is more than plenty. 11 dollars in cuba you can survive off for a month. Moron.


Really?

Take a look at this and tell me how long you think $11 will last you.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Cuba

And if you happen not to believe it, tell me how much lower you think prices in Cuba are as compared to the US. I would appreciate some sort of evidence as well, since you seem to be so sure of your position.

[Jason]

So you're saying that Cuba is in it's current situation because of the Embargo.

Assuming that were true, are you saying a communist (or state capitalist, as you've said) society like Cuba is dependent on a capitalist country like the US to survive?

Of course, you know, US companies controlled at least 80 percent (something around there) of Cuba's industry before Castro.



Really?

Take a look at this and tell me how long you think $11 will last you.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...p?country=Cuba (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Cuba)

And if you happen not to believe it, tell me how much lower you think prices in Cuba are as compared to the US. I would appreciate some sort of evidence as well, since you seem to be so sure of your position.


I agree Cuba's economy is down the toilet, probably the only place hit harder after the Soviet downfall was North Korea.

Nonetheless, many people support Cuba because they took a stand against imperalism. Of course, this stand has cost them dearly, but it's a worthwhile price. Look at it this way, they could sell out to the US and people would make all kinds of cash. But where's the honor?

[tooAlive]

Of course, you know, US companies controlled at least 80 percent (something around there) of Cuba's industry before Castro.

Then why did those industries fail once the government took over them?

So you're saying that the US control over those industries was much more efficient and effective than Cuba's own government?


I agree Cuba's economy is down the toilet, probably the only place hit harder after the Soviet downfall was North Korea.

Nonetheless, many people support Cuba because they took a stand against imperalism. Of course, this stand has cost them dearly, but it's a worthwhile price. Look at it this way, they could sell out to the US and people would make all kinds of cash. But where's the honor?

I think it's very easy to say the price of something is "worth it" when you aren't the one paying that price.

Would you say the price of honor was worth destroying a country? Because mind you, in the 50's Cuba was just as developed as the US. 50 years later they're a third world country.

And if you think Cubans are happy with the price they're paying, then why are so many "selling out" and leaving? They have been for 50 years. Why is it that everyone on the outside speaks so highly of their "revolution," yet nobody wants to go join them and share the honor?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Went to Vancouver for the holidays, and for the first time in my life I had Cuban rum. That shit is the shit.

[Jack]

Referring to the long post about the average income in Cuba, you should be aware that Cuba subsides goods and has price controls. The reasoning for a separate currency for tourists is to not fuck with that. A beer at a bar is about 4 cents last I checked, so while $11 isn't much in the states to live on (where a similar beer would be $2), it's plenty in Cuba.

[Rugged Collectivist]

To be fair, "true communism" as you advocate has never been tried; at least not historically documented. Secondly, I refer to Cuba as being communist because that is what they identify themselves as.

So I guess North Korea is a democratic people's republic then?


So, because I have different beliefs than you, I'm unintelligent?

It's nice to hear you're open to new ideas.

None of your ideas are new. You're just spewing the same old shit that supporters of capitalism always say when they come here. Forgive us for not being receptive to arguments we've heard and rejected a thousand times before.

[Jason]

Would you say the price of honor was worth destroying a country? Because mind you, in the 50's Cuba was just as developed as the US. 50 years later they're a third world country.


Are u sure about that? That anti-Che book that came out a few years ago tried to argue that position. If it were so good, then why such a massive rebellion?


They have been for 50 years. Why is it that everyone on the outside speaks so highly of their "revolution," yet nobody wants to go join them and share the honor?

Well, first of all, it's real tough in Cuba, mainly because of US oppression. Now, I admit, I do cringe though when limousine leftists like Michael Moore praise Cuba.

I don't of what help that Rev lefters could do in Cuba by moving there. Of course, Rev Lefters who live in the 1st world are comfortable, but that's just an accident of birth. I mean could George W. Bush change the fact he was born into oil money?


Because mind you, in the 50's Cuba was just as developed as the US. 50 years later they're a third world country.


Colombia and El Salvador are third world nations right now, and they're US allies. Cuba probably did get some perks being so close to the US, but all in all, the place had serious problems or they're would have been no motivation for rebellion.

Also, you got to remember the huge crime element in Batista's Cuba. So in that case, you got a "Weimar Republic" atmosphere which is kind of begging for resentment (and revolution). Actually that may have been the BIGGEST reason for it. For example, it was cultural resentment that also lead to Iran's revolution.

[tooAlive]

So I guess North Korea is a democratic people's republic then?

None of your ideas are new. You're just spewing the same old shit that supporters of capitalism always say when they come here. Forgive us for not being receptive to arguments we've heard and rejected a thousand times before.

All the countries that call themselves communists read the same books and literature you've read, and all promised the same things you're advocating for.

There's a reason why in practice, none of those things have ever been implemented correctly.

So I don't mean to be rude, but my ideas have a better track record than yours.


Are u sure about that? That anti-Che book that came out a few years ago tried to argue that position. If it were so good, then why such a massive rebellion?

I never said Batista's Cuba was great; I said it was better than what they have now.

Batista's dictatorship was corrupt, and people didn't like what was going on. So here comes along noble Castro and his crew promising hope and change. Mind you, he never claimed to be a communist. That is, until after he was in power. So what did people do? They followed and praised him!

How could they have known what Cuba would turn into? All they knew was that they weren't happy with the current situation and they wanted change.


Well, first of all, it's real tough in Cuba, mainly because of US oppression. Now, I admit, I do cringe though when limousine leftists like Michael Moore praise Cuba. As do I.


I don't of what help that Rev lefters could do in Cuba by moving there. Of course, Rev Lefters who live in the 1st world are comfortable, but that's just an accident of birth. I mean could George W. Bush change the fact he was born into oil money?All I'm saying is that it's very easy to fight for a cause when others are doing the fighting.


Referring to the long post about the average income in Cuba, you should be aware that Cuba subsides goods and has price controls. The reasoning for a separate currency for tourists is to not fuck with that. A beer at a bar is about 4 cents last I checked, so while $11 isn't much in the states to live on (where a similar beer would be $2), it's plenty in Cuba.

Where did you check? I actually even just provided a link showing the cost of living in Cuba. Here it is again in case you missed it.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Cuba

I've gone to Cuba 5 times, and I've never seen a beer selling for 4 cents. Ever.

I've also been to those little Cuban stores where locals buy in pesos, and they're always empty. There's nothing for Cubans to buy there.

Now walk into the CUC stores, and you have little mini-Walmarts. $11 goes a very, very short way.

[Jason]

I never said Batista's Cuba was great; I said it was better than what they have now.



It was better for whom? Not for the poor majority.


Batista's dictatorship was corrupt, and people didn't like what was going on. So here comes along noble Castro and his crew promising hope and change. Mind you, he never claimed to be a communist. That is, until after he was in power. So what did people do? They followed and praised him!

How could they have known what Cuba would turn into? All they knew was that they weren't happy with the current situation and they wanted change.

If the US had been friendly to the new government, then today's Cuba would be a lot more comfortable. However, despite this handicap, like all Soviet allies, it managed fairly well until the Soviet breakup. Even North Korea wasn't so bad until the Soviet breakup. At one time, it was actually as developed as the south.



How could they have known what Cuba would turn into? All they knew was that they weren't happy with the current situation and they wanted change.




Well, what type of change was possible? Obviously, only socialism offered real change. That was thier only option. Otherwise, they'd have to settle being a neo-colony of the US. Of course, some neo-colonies do well: South Korea, Taiwan and Hawaii (since it's a state) However, most of them are dirt poor.

[tooAlive]

A beer at a bar is about 4 cents last I checked, so while $11 isn't much in the states to live on (where a similar beer would be $2), it's plenty in Cuba.

When was the last time you checked, 1959?

For those that think that $11 go a long way in Cuba, here are a few pictures of food stores on the island. You tell me how much you can do on $11..

Lets see, that's $1.25 for the cheapest tomato sauce I can see..

http://www.visitcuba.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/grocery-shelf-Havana.jpg

And there are plenty of places like that. Example;

http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/07/15/72/1892001/5/628x471.jpg

The only two prices I can see in this pic are $20.50 and $13.15 (left on counter and lower left). Whatever they may be, the average (well off) Cuban has to save up for 2 months to afford either one.

http://www.cubastandard.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/CIMEX-store.jpg

See, everything is fine and dandy in Cuba if you have money. Unfortunately, the Cuban people don't get to see any of it.

But since you said $11 is enough to live on, I'll show you where those people get their food, and you tell me if you see a lot of it.

http://standeyo.com/NEWS/09_Food_Water/09_Food_Water_pics/090806.Cuban.store.jpg

And notice how this is is a much older pic.. I can assure you their stock is even lower now.

http://www.canf.org/clientuploads/cuban%20store%20empty.jpg


http://cache.virtualtourist.com/4/6021914-Peso_store_for_food_Cuba.jpg

http://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/bajaage/6c49651c8f77dea31254e79f35a88a6c/MB-03845466.jpg

Here's another. Notice the sign that says, "Commander - Wishing you a speedy recovery." Referring to Castro. In case you have doubts about where the photo took place.

http://www.florenciosanchez.com/cuba/images/tienda.jpg

Let me know if you want to see more.


It was better for whom? Not for the poor majority.

Considering that now everyone gets paid less than the poor did under Batista, I would disagree with your statement.

[Delenda Carthago]

Communism doesnt work.

http://64.19.142.12/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/GDP-Caribbean.png



Thankfully sometime in the future Cuba is going to turn capitalist and become the second Canada.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Cuba is an isolated (not completely or as much as North Korea, but enough to strangle the economy) economy. It's recent marketization policies and implementations are the result of the difficulties of self-sufficiency, not because they're coming to some grand conclusion that the system they've had for the last five decades doesn't work.

Nothing to add to this, comrade.

[tooAlive]

Nothing to add to this, comrade.

Did you see the pictures I just posted?

Do those stores filled with products and goods look like they're in a deprived and isolated country? Sure doesn't look like it to me.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

When was the last time you checked, 1959?

For those that think that $11 go a long way in Cuba, here are a few pictures of food stores on the island. You tell me how much you can do on $11..

Lets see, that's $1.25 for the cheapest tomato sauce I can see..


You do understand that those are stores for tourists who pay with dollars? Cubans dont get paid in dollars, in fact, they dont even get paid with what can be compared with any other western country's money. Cuba has a "labor money" called Pesos, with which the Cuban people can pay to fulfill all their basic needs. Cuba's economy heavily relies on tourism, has a steady inflow of Dollars, but pays workers in the "Pesos" labor money, and is necessarily taking steps to privatize sectors of their economy to sign trade deals; all these factors are creating a society under high tension, with imperialist threat, inequality, inefficiencies, and privileges combining to make the country is barely progress economically. Communism will not win in Cuba before Communism wins in the West.

[Delenda Carthago]

omg he gave me a "thanks".:lol:

[tooAlive]

You do understand that those are stores for tourists who pay with dollars? Cubans dont get paid in dollars, in fact, they dont even get paid with what can be compared with any other western country's money. Cuba has a "labor money" called Pesos, with which the Cuban people can pay to fulfill all their basic needs. Cuba's economy heavily relies on tourism, has a steady inflow of Dollars, but pays workers in the "Pesos" labor money, and is necessarily taking steps to privatize sectors of their economy to sign trade deals; all these factors are creating a society under high tension, with imperialist threat, inequality, inefficiencies, and privileges combining to make the country is barely progress economically. Communism will not win in Cuba before Communism wins in the West.

And by paying the people with a worthless, useless currency while pocketing the real dollars themselves, the Cuban government is responsible for perhaps one of the biggest mass-exploitations in human history.

Because if you also look at the pictures I posted you will see the stores where Cubans shop with pesos. They're empty. But I guess the embargo only affects those stores.

And you may argue that at least they have free health care and education.

Now tell me, why would someone want to live longer or get educated when they live such a miserable existence? The only hope a Cuban can live for is to either be allowed to leave the country, or not get eaten by a shark after jumping in the ocean trying to reach freedom.

If you've never lived in Cuba, you cannot argue this.


omg he gave me a "thanks".:lol:

You're welcome. And I just noticed you included a picture; it never loaded for me, so I don't know what it was about.

Edit - I Google'd the image name and found out what it was all about.

If you know anything about economics you'd know that Per Capita GDP has absolutely no relationship with the actual distribution of wealth in a country.

I never said Cuba was poor; I said the Cuban people had no money.

[nativeabuse]

Did you see the pictures I just posted?


You just got those by googling cuban store. They are meaningless to me without the context behind them.

[Jason]

Communism doesnt work.

Thankfully sometime in the future Cuba is going to turn capitalist and become the second Canada.

Oh great, another capitalist Disneyland for the world's people to immigrate to. :rolleyes:


Considering that now everyone gets paid less than the poor did under Batista, I would disagree with your statement.


Maybe cause the US is being an A hole as usual and persecuted thier nation for half a century.

[tooAlive]

You just got those by googling cuban store. They are meaningless to me without the context behind them.

Ignoring them will not make the reality they portray any less real.

But I suppose you can continue to live in ignorance if you so wish to.


Maybe cause the US is being an A hole as usual and persecuted thier nation for half a century.The US isn't getting rich off of exploiting the Cuban people; the Cuban government is.

[Crabbensmasher]

Alright, I've done research on the Cuban Economy before, and yeah, the dual currencies is probably one of the country's biggest modern problems. To be fair though, the Cuban people aren't really malnourished. As somebody else said, poor people in Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico etc. still have it off worse.

And yes, the well stocked stores in those photos are intended for tourists. The only Cubans going there are ones with access to tourist money (private restaurant operators, taxi drivers, hotel maids, health spa workers, etc.) The state stores sell lots of basic necessities, but just as you would see in the Eastern Block, they are of poor quality and suffer from shortages. Now, Cuba does have the advantage of being a small country, making central planning a hell of a lot easier.

The Cuban government has to either eliminate one of the currencies, or work on making peso items more accessible.

[Jason]

The US isn't getting rich off of exploiting the Cuban people; the Cuban government is.


How are they exploiting them? By not allowing them to become US slaves?

[tooAlive]

How are they exploiting them? By not allowing them to become US slaves?

The two currencies is a prime example.

Why on earth do you think Cuba's Per Capita GPD is so high compared to other third world countries, yet the Cuban people have the lowest salaries?

[Hiero]

Since Cubans are paid in Pesos, we'll need to convert that amount into CUC. 300 / 27 = $11 CUC.

That's $11 to feed yourself or even your family.

Walk into any government owned store to buy your groceries or things for the home, and you'll find stuff at roughly the same price you'll find at a Wal-Mart here.No you wont, that's a ridiculousclaim. You buy a bottle rum there for .20pesos-.50pesos. Your talking about cuc prices, which you would have been limited to being a tourist. You have converted what they earn into CUC, but then haven't mentioned peso prices for common goods.

[Jason]

The two currencies is a prime example.

Why on earth do you think Cuba's Per Capita GPD is so high compared to other third world countries, yet the Cuban people have the lowest salaries?


I'm not saying Cuba is a perfect nation, but far better than before. They standing up to the US, and providing social services to the people. Of course, they would be richer (in a capitalist sense) by selling out to the US totally, but that can have a dark side.

For instance, China once was really communist and provided services to people, but nowadays, it doesn't, and people are suffering. So you can't have it both ways. Note: Capitalism has brought up the living standard for a lot of people in China, Brazil and India. However, communism could do the same. Plus, the communist "lifting of poverty" would help ALL people. Communism, as in the case of Cuba, cannot function as well as it could because of US harassment.

[Jimmie Higgins]

To be fair, "true communism" as you advocate has never been tried; at least not historically documented. Secondly, I refer to Cuba as being communist because that is what they identify themselves as.Worker's rule has been achieved for short times in a few examples, but a "stateless and classless" society of a modern kind has never been achieved (though this is how humans lived for most of early history - just not "modern" of course).

Cuba, however, wasn't even a failed attempt at socialism. In fact Castro said that it was a national liberation movement even AFTER the revolution. It was only after the US cut economic ties and tried to overthrow the Cuban regime and Castro turned to the USSR for a trade-partner that he suddenly annouced some time after the revolution and they had been in power that "the cuban revolution is, has been, and always will be Marxist-Leninist".

Obviously "politics" were involved, but more of the "manuvering" kind, rather than the principled kind.

[Delenda Carthago]

You're welcome. And I just noticed you included a picture; it never loaded for me, so I don't know what it was about.

Edit - I Google'd the image name and found out what it was all about.

If you know anything about economics you'd know that Per Capita GDP has absolutely no relationship with the actual distribution of wealth in a country.

I never said Cuba was poor; I said the Cuban people had no money.

"Cuban people have no money". I see what you did there.:lol:

Yes, as you already said, cubans dont get paid much. But that dont tells us shit. I say that the social system is like that that people can live good(if you compare it to the neighborhood) without the thing we call "money".

What we do have to know in order to get a full picture is:
A. The comparasing to what it was before, ie the Batista regime.
B. What forces are being applied to the current situation
C. What could be done if we change things.



You want to compare Cuba to capitalist Haiti? To Nicaragua? To El Salvador? Because thats what you have to compare it with, not freakin Germany! Thats how its gonna end up if they follow the root you would like. There is no way that a tropical island would ever become a first world country, at least not this way.

But the fact that this tropical island, under the USA's nose, under economical embargo, under political pressure, after a military attack, against every fuckin odd there could be, still exists and stands bold and fuckin beautifull, with its people support(because fuck me if you ever thought that USA would not "serve democracy" with the first sight of people's massive demostration), thats what bothers you. And I freakin luv it!

Is Cuba the ideal of any communist that lives in a first world country? Fuck no, if we wanted to be poor, we could stay in capitalism. Is Cuba the dream for many people in Latin America? Yes, it is. Bro. Go figure.:thumbup1:

[hetz]

Our fellow anti-communist makes it seem as if Cubans can't buy more than a few cans of tomato sauce with their monthly salary. I wonder how come all of them aren't dead already, and how come Cuba is the only country in Latin America free of child malnutrition, and also one with the longest life expectancy.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Our fellow anti-communist makes it seem as if Cubans can't buy more than a few cans of tomato sauce with their monthly salary. I wonder how come all of them aren't dead already, and how come Cuba is the only country in Latin America free of child malnutrition, and also one with the longest life expectancy.

Yup I forgot about this! UNICEF confirmed fact, not random internet dudes pictures off of google images of random markets.

Here's the thread from a while back.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/cuba-only-latin-t175027/index.html?t=175027

[tooAlive]

Yup I forgot about this! UNICEF confirmed fact, not random internet dudes pictures off of google images of random markets.

Here's the thread from a while back.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/cuba-only-latin-t175027/index.html?t=175027

Yes, many Cubans are fortunate enough to have family members in capitalist USA, or be able to steal from their jobs.

That's how they survive.

[hetz]

Cool story son.
How about at least some half-credible evidence ( we even accept Fox News )?

[tooAlive]

"Cuban people have no money". I see what you did there.:lol:

Yes, as you already said, cubans dont get paid much. But that dont tells us shit. I say that the social system is like that that people can live good(if you compare it to the neighborhood) without the thing we call "money".

Yeah, who needs money to live right?


What we do have to know in order to get a full picture is:
A. The comparasing to what it was before, ie the Batista regime.
B. What forces are being applied to the current situation
C. What could be done if we change things.A. They were better off under Batista. Even the poor.
B. A government continues to oppress it's people, for the honor of "socialism."
C. Cubans could be allowed to be free, open up private businesses, leave the country, ect..



You want to compare Cuba to capitalist Haiti? To Nicaragua? To El Salvador? Because thats what you have to compare it with, not freakin Germany! Thats how its gonna end up if they follow the root you would like. There is no way that a tropical island would ever become a first world country, at least not this way.Did you know Hatians get paid a much higher salary than Cubans?


But the fact that this tropical island, under the USA's nose, under economical embargo, under political pressure, after a military attack, against every fuckin odd there could be, still exists and stands bold and fuckin beautifull, with its people support(because fuck me if you ever thought that USA would not "serve democracy" with the first sight of people's massive demostration), thats what bothers you. And I freakin luv it!
Beautiful? People's support? What alternate-universe are you talking about?


Is Cuba the ideal of any communist that lives in a first world country? Fuck no, if we wanted to be poor, we could stay in capitalism. Is Cuba the dream for many people in Latin America? Yes, it is. Bro. Go figure.:thumbup1:Because people from those countries are absolutely clueless.

I love it how people from Spain, Australia, Greece, ect.. praise Cuba and speak so highly of their system when they have not even the slightest idea of what life in Cuba is like.

If people were allowed to freely leave Cuba, lets see how many government officials would be left on the island.

[tooAlive]

No you wont, that's a ridiculousclaim. You buy a bottle rum there for .20pesos-.50pesos. Your talking about cuc prices, which you would have been limited to being a tourist. You have converted what they earn into CUC, but then haven't mentioned peso prices for common goods.

That's because there are no common goods at peso prices!

You've obviously never been to Cuba.


Cool story son.
How about at least some half-credible evidence ( we even accept Fox News )?

First of all son, your communism has no evidence because it's never existed.

And secondly, I've provided pictures and links that illustrate the same reality thousands before me have attested to, yet the "revolutionary left" keeps wanting to ignore.

But hey, that's fine with me. If you have solid evidence that your communism works, I'm open to hear it. Until then, you can't refute anything I've said.

[hetz]

You've obviously never been to Cuba.
> implying you've ever been there

[tooAlive]

> implying you've ever been there

My family is from Cuba, buddy.

I even have family that's still there that has been there since Batista.

I've gone 5 times; the last being 6 months ago.

So yes, I have a little better understanding of the system you claim to know so much about.

[Questionable]

My family is from Cuba, buddy.

I even have family that's still there that has been there since Batista.

I've gone 5 times; the last being 6 months ago.

So yes, I have a little better understanding of the system you claim to know so much about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

And by paying the people with a worthless, useless currency while pocketing the real dollars themselves, the Cuban government is responsible for perhaps one of the biggest mass-exploitations in human history.


"Exploitation"? The Cuban government collects every dollar it can at a good peso exchange value, so that it can Trade with other countries, as the peso is not considered a "hard" currency.

[tooAlive]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

I was just informing your buddy that I had actually been there, when he claimed I hadn't. That's all.

Although it is a bit comical that many of you claim to know more about a life you haven't lived, than someone who has.

And this doesn't just happen with Cuba.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

The two currencies is a prime example.

Why on earth do you think Cuba's Per Capita GPD is so high compared to other third world countries, yet the Cuban people have the lowest salaries?

Because the main pillars (health care, food, clothing, transportation, and housing) are free or highly subsidized, so that everyone can securely have their basic living necessities.

[Questionable]

I was just informing your buddy that I had actually been there, when he claimed I hadn't. That's all.

Although it is a bit comical that many of you claim to know more about a life you haven't lived, than someone who has.

And this doesn't just happen with Cuba.

I'm not the one that assumes every person in existence who lives in poverty is there because they're not skilled enough or, even better, because they like it.

All of your arguments are based upon assuming you know the mindset of everyone under capitalism. I can quote a ton of examples from your posts.

[Delenda Carthago]

Yeah, who needs money to live right?


In socialism you dont. Weird huh?


A. They were better off under Batista. Even the poor.Seig Heil!



Beautiful? People's support? What alternate-universe are you talking about?How many revolts have you seen during the last 50 years? How many massive demos have you seen? Can you realise how easy would it be for the US to overthrow the goverment, if there was a kinda serious anticommunist movement? I mean, USA have fucked up much more strong countries, in the other side of the world, that would be a party. But I dont see it yet.




Because people from those countries are absolutely clueless. Yes. They are. Only you know. You should go and tell them.




If people were allowed to freely leave Cuba, lets see how many government officials would be left on the island.
Cubans ARE free to leave the country. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/16/cuba-foreign-travel-easier-citizens) Havent seen yet any massive refugee wave though. I wonder why.:confused:

[tooAlive]

In socialism you dont. Weird huh?

Yeah, but unless we get to your "perfect communist world,"

Money is still pretty important.


Seig Heil!Sieg*

But no worries, not everyone has access to private education.


Yes. They are. Only you know. You should go and tell them.

I love it how people from Spain, Australia, Greece, ect.. praise Cuba and speak so highly of their system when they have not even the slightest idea of what life in Cuba is like.
lol. It isn't just me. But I am here, telling you, so..


Cubans ARE free to leave the country. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/16/cuba-foreign-travel-easier-citizens) Havent seen yet any massive refugee wave though. I wonder why.:confused:Maybe if they had internet, those that are still jumping in the water would know and simply just take a plane.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Yes, many Cubans are fortunate enough to have family members in capitalist USA, or be able to steal from their jobs.

That's how they survive.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Bahahahaha

So every Cuban steals from their job and/or gets aid from some
family member in America who made it big because of the amazing free market or whatever? Enough so to prevent child malnutrition in the entire nation? Come on dude, you expect us to believe that?

The fuck outta here with that nonsense... :laugh:




And secondly, I've provided pictures and links that illustrate the same reality thousands before me have attested to, yet the "revolutionary left" keeps wanting to ignore.


Old pictures from google images and your own personal sob stories don't amount to credible evidence.

I gave you UNICEF's information, you give me some random pictures from google images and some of your own personal beliefs. Back your claims up with solid evidence, otherwise they fall apart on their own.

[tooAlive]

Because the main pillars (health care, food, clothing, transportation, and housing) are free or highly subsidized, so that everyone can securely have their basic living necessities.

That's all they have.

Just enough food to survive, and a free medical system that does it's best at keeping them alive.

[tooAlive]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Bahahahaha

So every Cuban steals from their jobs and/or gets aid from some
family member in America who made it big because of the amazing free market or whatever? Enough so to prevent child malnutrition in the entire nation? Come on dude, you expect us to believe that?

The fuck outta here with that nonsense... :laugh:

No, I said the ones that were fortunate enough to do so lived pretty well.

Not everyone has those privileges.


Old pictures from google images and your own personal sob stories don't amount to credible evidence.

Yes, they must be Photoshopped and all us righties a bunch of loonie liars.. I get you.


I gave you UNICEF's information, you give me some random pictures from google images and some of your own personal beliefs. Back your claims up with solid evidence, otherwise they fall apart on their own.

No, I said you were right about them living longer, ect..

My response was why would they want to? Unless they had hopes of leaving the island.

[Questionable]

Yes, they must be Photoshopped and all us righties a bunch of loonie liars.. I get you.

And I guess UNICEF statistics are a leftist conspiracy.

Anyone else think it's pretty funny that tooAlive chastised leftists for supporting Cuba on the basis that we didn't know more about people's lives than themselves, but when we give him hard statistics that prove Cuba is a decent place, he just says that every single person there secretly hates their lives and is just using universal healthcare and free housing until they're lucky enough to catch a boat to America?

[tooAlive]

And I guess UNICEF statistics are a leftist conspiracy.

When did I say they were?

I even said he was right about. Seems to me as though you're running out of talking points..

[Questionable]

When did I say they were?

I even said he was right about. Seems to me as though you're running out of talking points..

You said they were correct but every person living in Cuba was actually wetting their pants in anticipation to get to America where they can...lose their free housing and universalized healthcare?

We've given you plenty of hard evidence to support our viewpoints, but you've only given us shit that amounts to "But people in Cuba HATE socialism, I can't prove it but just trust me!"

[tooAlive]

You said they were correct but every person living in Cuba was actually wetting their pants in anticipation to get to America where they can...lose their free housing and universalized healthcare?

We've given you plenty of hard evidence to support our viewpoints, but you've only given us shit that amounts to "But people in Cuba HATE socialism, I can't prove it but just trust me!"

*sigh*

Do people try to leave Cuba, or do they try to sneak in?

Why is it that the USA has people come from all over the world, when we don't have free housing, healthcare, or food? Why is that? If the Cuban system is so great, why do so many come here, and leave behind all the free stuff?

[Questionable]

Do people try to leave Cuba, or do they try to sneak in?

As Dalando Cathargo pointed out, it's actually quite easy for a Cuban citizen to immigrate. A lot of wealthy Cubans left the country when the revolution happened and helped propagate the myth that they were sad victims of a totalitarian government.


Why is it that the USA has people come from all over the world, when we don't have free housing, healthcare, or food? Why is that? If the Cuban system is so great, why do so many come here, and leave behind all the free stuff?

Well a lot of immigrants buy into the "American Dream" myth and come here expecting it to be awesome but then they end up working fashion sweat shops in California. Many more are trying to escape bad conditions in their own capitalist countries, such as Mexico's massive drug wars. Immigration isn't always a choice.

[ВАЛТЕР]

No, I said the ones that were fortunate enough to do so lived pretty well.

Not everyone has those privileges.

Alright, enough of this.

Give us your evidence. sources, studies, etc. I'm sick of people coming on here with their own hearsay crap and expecting everyone to take them seriously.




Yes, they must be Photoshopped and all us righties a bunch of loonie liars.. I get you.
Yes, you are all a bunch of batshit crazy loons. I agree with that statement.

Oh, it's like that? All it takes are pictures and that is evidence enough? Ok, we can play that game, we can play that game all day long.



Oh look, they have food. http://www.cubawanderer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Market-in-Havana-photo-by-Bruce-Tuten.jpg

Oh look! They have meat too!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Havana_-_Cuba_-_1642.jpg



This market in Havana sure looks busy. As well as well stocked. I guess these are all customers who have some big hotshot uncle in Miami sending them money.

http://www.havana-unwrapped.com/images/AnimasPesoMarket.jpg


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7005/6818112381_e98145c62b_z.jpg




There, busy farmers markets in Havana, not only full of fresh food, but shoppers as well.

Another thing, notice the photographs I posted were newer and not from the crisis years after the fall of the USSR when Cuba lost much of its support. Cuba seems to be doing quite well for itself given the immense amount of pressure it is under. These are photos from the markets where average Cubans shop, and not where tourists go to buy their tomato juice or whatever the fuck you were going on about earlier.




No, I said you were right about them living longer, ect..

My response was why would they want to? Unless they had hopes of leaving the island.WTF are you talking about? My post goes to another thread where there the main subject is that UNICEF has acknowledged that Cuba has ended all malnutrition. Here: http://www.radiorebelde.cu/english/news/cuba-has-eliminated-child-malnutrition-highlights-the-unicef-20120904/

Here are some more links. See what I am doing? It is called giving sources. By giving credible sources, my claims can be taken seriously.

http://www.cadenagramonte.cubaweb.cu/english/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11157:unicef-cuba-is-an-example-to-follow&catid=2:cuba&Itemid=14



UNICEF: Cuba is an Example to Follow (http://www.cadenagramonte.cubaweb.cu/english/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11157:unicef-cuba-is-an-example-to-follow&catid=2:cuba&Itemid=14)

Friday, 01 June 2012 16:44

http://www.cadenagramonte.cubaweb.cu/english/images/stories/unicef_logo.jpgHavana, Cuba, June 1.- While thousands of children die today in the world from inevitable causes, as it happens everyday, Cuba marks World Children’s Day in a different manner, said the representative of the UN Children Fund (UNICEF) in Cuba Jose Juan Ortiz in statements to Granma
newspaper.

The UNICEF official said that in his over-30-year work with the UN organization he has learned of many social development programs in other countries, but he has only experienced their social impact on the island.

Cuba has always been an example to follow in terms of social development with equality levels that reach those of the most developed nations, he stressed and noted that equality is a treasure, a key achievement, that must be preserved.

There is no one excluded in Cuba and this fact stands for human rights, said Ortiz who pointed out that the example offered by the island is marked by its guaranteeing of such rights during more than fifty years, despite the fact that it is a poor country.

“It is not a matter of money, but of political priorities, said Ortiz and noted that if children were the priority around the world, the current problems facing the kids on the planet would have been solved years ago, as it happened in Cuba.” (ACN)



http://www.voltairenet.org/article165915.html





UNICEF: Cuba is an example in children protection

by Cuban Agency News, Marcos Alfonso

It is a never ending story. The US authorities don’t know what else to come up with in their efforts against Cuba.


Partners | Havana (Cuba) | 17 June 2010

http://www.voltairenet.org/local/cache-vignettes/L359xH224/1-1980-a0419.jpg The latest example of their sick manoeuvres is the inclusion of Cuba among the worst countries in terms of human trafficking in a US State Department report on this topic.
Then, the Cuban answer was immediate. The head of the North America Department at the Cuban Ministry of Foreign Affairs Josefina Vidal described as “false and disrespectful” the Us allegations on human trafficking and the unbelievable inclusion of Cuban among the worst.
A paradox: just five days previous to the release of the report, UNICEF representative Juan José Ortiz made this statement in Havana:
“On the planet, millions of children lack schools and vaccination against preventable diseases, besides being the object of labour and sexual exploitation in the international prostitution networks and none of them is Cuban”
During the last years Cuba achieved positive results in major indicators regarding children protection, which makes it the country with the highest standards on children’s quality life.
“Tell me what you boast of, and I’ll tell you your weaknesses” is a Spanish aphorism that suits the US just fine in this case.
In this world we are living in, the nation that can show off of having all kinds of trafficking, human, narcotics, and other scourges like mob, murders, wars, and so on, is the one to evaluate other countries, that, according to its Secretary of State hillary Clinton, was the key for this report.
To Cubans these allegations are just slander: there is no other way to describe this new category the US is trying to dump on Cuba, by the way, it is the first time. So much for a new idea.
“These shameful slanders deeply offend the Cuban people. There is no sex trafficking of children in Cuba. Our country has an exemplary record in the protection of children, youths and women,” the statement notes.
“Cuban legislation and measures adopted in this regard place Cuba among the leading countries of the region with the most advanced norms and mechanisms to prevent and fight human trafficking,” said Vidal
On just a glance it is obvious that the Obama administration authorities neither have been in Cuba nor they read the UNICEF reports.
Going back to Ortiz words: “regarding quality and quantitative spheres you can say that the Convention on Children Rights is very well applied in Cuba, an example nowadays for Latin America”
According to Ortiz: “on that there is the influence of the work of UNICEF along the Cuban government” and stressed that Cuba “is the best of the region’s countries, therefore is a children paradise in Latin America”
Everything is perfectible. Nothing is just black or white. There are shades. As one poet once put it; “I don’t live in a perfect society…” but to say that there is children trafficking or children prostitution is the most disgusting way of attacking Cuba.
Cuba is not a rich country, but that doiesnt prevent it from guaranteeing the protection to children, according to UNICEF “something possible thanks to the political will of the Cuban authorities”
The welfare of children is not determined by the financial resources. They are needed, resources, but above all you need lots of love and will.
That is what Cuba has, and like National Hero Jose Marti once said: “children are the world’s hope”


Cuban Agency News (http://www.voltairenet.org/auteur120806.html?lang=en)
Marcos Alfonso (http://www.voltairenet.org/auteur124941.html?lang=en)
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I'm off to bed, I got shit to do tomorrow.

[Jason]

Of course, you also have to consider the hypocrisy of US foreign policy. This validates Cuba to a huge degree. For instance, the US condemns Castro for NOT holding free elections while having a long history of support for 3rd world pro-American (pro-business) dictators. A huge propoganda campaign has been installed to demonize Castro and portray Cuba as a hellhole while ignoring Mubarak, Pinochet, Park Chung Hee, and countless others (including China and the Saudis).

Are the Cuban people slaves? In comparison to who? Saudis who are subject to sharia law? Egyptians who are now celebrating freedom FROM a pro-American government?

[nativeabuse]

Ignoring them will not make the reality they portray any less real.

But I suppose you can continue to live in ignorance if you so wish to.


I didn't say I was ignoring them, they do bring something to the table in terms of the argument, but not much. You are assuming that I can simply extrapolate that the entire country can be represented by a few pictures you posted, that you got at random off the internet.

It would be different if I had the context they were taken in. But since I don't I can't assume that they are representative of the whole. Especially since I have seen lots of documentaries on Cuba and most of the stores in them didn't look like that, they don't look like walmarts in america or anything special by any means, but they don't look like those photos you posted, and they were nowhere near as good looking as the photos of the fancy tourist stores. So I am assuming the ones I saw were simply regular stores.

In the documentaries I've seen the store shelves looked sparse but nowhere near as empty as the ones you posted. Again, context, were these taken in a extreme shortage or when the stores were at normal operating level? We don't know.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

That's all they have.

Just enough food to survive, and a free medical system that does it's best at keeping them alive.

I agree, it is very good. Since Cubans live longer lives than Americans.. but here we go with our annoying "facts" again..

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

That's all they have.

Just enough food to survive, and a free medical system that does it's best at keeping them alive.

And what are you comparing this to?

Cuba is a third-world country. How many other third world countries do you know provide all the basic essentials and have had a stable government for half a century?

And no, this doesn't come at the price of totalitarianism. Cuba may be deficient in areas of democracy, no doubt, but it is certainly not totalitarianism. There is no 'feared' secret police, the normal police are on friendly terms with the people and Castro is genuinely liked, even if much of the government and the system is complained about.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Oh, as for 'just enough food to survive'. Kinda bullshit. There's more than enough food to go around. Granted, it's of severely variable quality, but i've not seen anybody struggle even slightly for food there. Really it is just silly to say they don't have much food.

[Lowtech]

*sigh*

Do people try to leave Cuba, or do they try to sneak in?

Why is it that the USA has people come from all over the world, when we don't have free housing, healthcare, or food? Why is that? If the Cuban system is so great, why do so many come here, and leave behind all the free stuff?

this is probably the most famous strawman on earth.

Firstly, yes people do try to come to the USA, they do so because they do what they are economically compelled to do. Most people on the planet are assimilated into a global market economy, they are all subject to artificial scarcity, therefore they are economically drawn to where resources are concentrated. Money represents resources (in a very abstract, unscientific, distorted way). This is not validation of capitalism, rather this is simply an observation that capitalism does not serve humanity, rather it manipulates humanity as a whole to serve a plutocratic class. You're obviously having fun tangling everyone up in semantics and making us defend Cuba, when we should make you defend a plutocratic society, artificial scarcity and elitism, all of which is capitalism.

[Hiero]

That's because there are no common goods at peso prices!

You've obviously never been to Cuba.

Actually I have, back in 2008. I went into a common store, I couldn't buy anything because the prices were peso, not CUC (though legally I couldn't buy anything, however small vendors would sell cakes and coffee and accept CUC when they were only meant to accept local peso). I don't know what you mean by common goods, but the goods there were very common, as in essentials. They can't buy things that are found in Wallmart, one because of the blockade, Cuba can't trade for thoose items and secondly, the majority of the worlds population can't because of imbalances between third world and first world economies. I don't profess to know everything about life in Cuba, I was only there for a month, but I don't understand what your claiming. If what you are saying is true, people would starving on mass. It seems like your just being dishonest to prove a political point.

[Thelonious]

I have decided to stay away from this thread because the Coca-Cola guy who started it is obviously delusional. I travel to Cuba once a year, have been all over the island, and have never, ever, not even once seen anyone starving or homeless. Food is affordable and available. Nobody ever suffers because they cannot afford to see a doctor. Funny though, I see this every single day where I live in the United States of America, and not just here and there. The city I live in is rife with widespread homelessness, untreated mental illness, people suffering from easily treatable sicknesses, but I digress.

The reason most Cuban expatriates here in the USA hate the current situation in Cuba is because Castro's revolution stopped the wholesale exploitation of the peasants. And the Cuban's here in the USA who are doing the hating are (or the children of) the ones who did that exploiting. The Coca-Cola guy who started this thread would love to get back to Cuba with his family and pay some miserable peasant one peso a week to do all of his work for him.

I realize my reasoning may be a bit crude, but my explanation is really the essence of the anger the "gusanos" here in the USA feel.

[Eslam]

A large part of the reason why the Cuban economy is in the state it's in is because of the blockade

[Jason]

The Cold War was really screwed up. America had trade with Russia, the nation that aided Cuba, while it had a blockade against Cuba. Anyhow, we can say the hostility toward Cuba was based less on Communism, and more on preserving American hegemony in the western hemisphere.

[Crabbensmasher]

The funny thing about Cubans is that many of them will still defend their country. On a whole, they are generally patriotic people. Many of the ex-patriots will even give praise to their home country.
I've seen hundreds of interviews and the likes with ordinary Cubans. Many of them really believe in socialism, but they all wish for improvements. They admit that, yes, their lives are tough, and yes, sometimes the government makes things difficult for them, but overall, they are optimistic, patriotic, happy people.
You have to realize though, many Cubans are still poorer than they were before Soviet aid was cut off in 1991. Nonetheless, they still trudge on.

I think the reason so many Cubans leave is because of lack of opportunities. I've heard stories of heart surgeons moonlighting as Taxi drivers to scrape together extra money. It is a equitable society, but this means there is nowhere to climb. Once your making 600 pesos a month (or whatever the max income bracket is), there's really nowhere further to climb from there. Now, in a lot of cases, this isn't really a problem, but you must remember, Cuba has the American 'land of opportunity' sitting right at it's back porch.

If you'd asked an ordinary Cuban 10 years after the revolution if their life has improved, they would most certainly agree with you. But the troubling thing is, the generation of the revolution is dying off. Many of the Cuban youths are now beginning to ask "Is there a better place to live?" "Can I emigrate to America and live better?"
They really have nothing to compare their standard of living to, except for America, which they associate with wealth and fortune.
After all, where do you think all the rich tourists are coming from? America, Canada, Britain etc.

As for all of the outspoken anti-Cubans, the ones who denounce their government and don't believe in it's cause, well I think they're mostly a vocal minority.
America has it's vocal minority as well. It's why people still watch Fox News. It's just when you have an undemocratic, communist government in power, the vocal minority tends to be, well, more vocal.

To sum it up, Cubans don't hate their government. They don't leave out of treason. They do it because their frustrated, and in the present day more than ever, they seem to have more aspirations. Aspirations that can't be fulfilled in their home country. Many believe Cuba is tying them down.

[Jason]

It's just when you have an undemocratic, communist government in power, the vocal minority tends to be, well, more vocal.


The US is also undemocratic as the press and elite control politics. However, America is way more comfortable than Cuba, but only because of imperalism, coupled with living on a large land with so many natural resources.

So the situation with America is about "comfort". But there could just as easily be some monarchy or dictatorship somewhere that is also comfortable (for the same reasons), and in some sense America is a dictatorship (as I explained previously).



If you'd asked an ordinary Cuban 10 years after the revolution if their life has improved, they would most certainly agree with you. But the troubling thing is, the generation of the revolution is dying off. Many of the Cuban youths are now beginning to ask "Is there a better place to live?" "Can I emigrate to America and live better?"
They really have nothing to compare their standard of living to, except for America, which they associate with wealth and fortune.
After all, where do you think all the rich tourists are coming from? America, Canada, Britain etc.



Well, obviously, all Cubans can't come to America, so upon the end of state capitalism (communism), Cuba simply evolves into Mexico. But perhaps the educational opportunites of the former regime would translate into a lot of money for many Cubans (under free enterprise). However, it's ironic that so much education wouldn't have happened without Castro's revolution.